The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendments 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Paul Davies.

We now move to the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion.

Motion NDM6095 Simon Thomas

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that it is three years since the publication of Professor Sioned Davies’s report, that recommended the removal of ‘Welsh second language’ and establishing one Welsh language learning continuum in its place.

2. Notes that the First Minister’s letter of December 2015 states his opinion that the concept of ‘Welsh as a second language’ creates an artificial difference, and we are not of the view that it offers a useful basis for making policies for the future.

3. Notes the importance of the education system in order to reach the Welsh Government’s target of one million Welsh speakers.

4. Regrets the decision of Qualifications Wales to keep the Welsh second language qualification for an unspecified time and therefore in order to ensure that no pupil is deprived of the skills to use the Welsh language, calls on the Welsh Government to:

(a) outline a clear timetable for replacing the Welsh second language qualification with one new Welsh qualification for every pupil by 2018, which would mean examining the new qualification for the first time in 2020;

(b) adopt a strategy for targeting extra resources for teaching Welsh to trainee teachers, serving teachers, classroom assistants and other teaching practitioners; and

(c) invest substantially, and seriously plan, through a series of innovative initiatives, in order to quickly increase the number of education practitioners who teach through the medium of Welsh.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I move the motion in the name of Plaid Cymru, Plaid Cymru, of course, has called this debate this afternoon to note that it is now three years since the publication of Professor Sioned Davies’s report, commissioned by the Welsh Government, on the situation of Welsh as a second language in English-medium schools. The report’s conclusion, of course, was that it was the eleventh hour for Welsh second language. The report stated that the attainment levels of pupils was lower than in any other subject, and it went on to say that if this had been said about mathematics or English, there is no doubt that we would have seen a revolution. If we are serious, therefore, about developing Welsh speakers and seeing the Welsh language prosper, then we must change direction as a matter of urgency, before it is too late.

Now, just a few months earlier, the census had actually painted a picture in terms of a reduction in the number of Welsh speakers. A month after the publication of the report, the recommendations of the Welsh Government’s ‘Cynhadledd Fawr’, if you recall, stated that very substantial changes were needed in terms of Welsh taught as a second language. In August 2014, the First Minister himself said in his policy document ‘A living language: a language for living—Moving forward’ that there was a need, and I quote,

‘for all learners in Wales—whether they attend Welsh-medium or English-medium schools…to speak Welsh confidently.’

In November 2014, a whole year after the publication of Professor Davies’s report, Professor Davies herself expressed some concern that not much had happened with the report since its publication. Professor Davies said that, amongst all of the things that she suggested, there were things that could have been done overnight, but that there were other things, such as capacity building, that would take many years, according to her.

As I said in the report, it is the eleventh hour for Welsh second language. I don’t know what comes after the eleventh hour, but I would say that the clock has almost struck again, I think.

And that was a whole year after the publication of her report. We’re now three years on from the publication of the report and, to all intents and purposes, we’re still awaiting action.

Rather than moving away from the Welsh second language regime, what we saw earlier this year was Qualifications Wales consulting on the GCSE Welsh second language qualification and coming to the conclusion that they wanted to retain that for the time being, although the majority of respondents to the consultation said that it needed to be abolished—although, the Welsh Government’s policy, of course, is to abolish Welsh second language—and although academics, educators, organisations and institutions of all kinds want to see the abolition of the Welsh second language qualification.

Now, in fairness, Qualifications Wales says that this is a temporary step, but there is no clarity from the Welsh Government as to what is meant by ‘temporary’ in that context. So, I have to say that I do understand and sympathise with the concern and frustration that many have expressed that so much time has passed since the publication of Professor Sioned Davies’s report without any real action or determined action on this agenda, and then, of course, seeing Qualifications Wales, to all intents and purposes, seemingly continuing with the old regime. I understand, therefore, the suspicion as to whether that commitment is really there from the Welsh Government to change the situation in this area.

Now, of course, we should remind ourselves that the First Minister had stated in a letter to Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg that he and the previous education Minister had come to the same conclusion, and they were of the view that the concept of Welsh second language

‘creates an artificial difference, and we are not of the view that it offers a useful basis for making policies for the future.’

Despite all of that, I have to say that I am pleased to see in the Welsh Government amendment a statement saying that,

‘from 2021 the new curriculum will remove the distinction between Welsh and Welsh Second Language’

I welcome that, but I would like the Minister to confirm not whether the new curriculum and the new qualification will be available to everyone by 2021, but that it will be used and in place by 2021, and will be actually part of the examination process and, therefore, that the old regime will have been removed. That is the assurance that many are seeking, and Qualifications Wales among them, I’m sure.

Now, the second clause of the Welsh Government amendment isn’t quite as good as it is too vague and general, in my view. It actually scraps clauses 4(b) and 4(c) in the original motion, which talks about action, and then replaces that with a ‘notes’ amendment. Now, the Government likes to note a number of things, but what we want to see is action, of course.

We mention in the original motion the need to adopt measures, for example, to increase the number of education practitioners who teach through the medium of Welsh, but not only that, but increase the support for trainee teachers, serving teachers, classroom assistants and teaching practitioners and the need, of course, for additional resources to achieve that.

Now, the challenge of reaching the Government’s target of 1 million Welsh speakers is a considerable one, and effective and timely action does need to be taken. According to the annual report of the Government itself on their Welsh-medium education strategy, the increases in the number of those in receipt of Welsh-medium education is not adequate, and I don’t know that anyone would actually dispute that point. We have seen, since 2001, an increase of 0.1 per cent. Now, that isn’t the ambition and that isn’t the transformational educational landscape needed in order to reach that ambitious target of 1 million Welsh speakers. Someone told me that, at that rate of progress, it would take 800 years to ensure that all young people in Wales received Welsh-medium education. Now, I know that the wheels of government turn slowly, but surely not even the wheels of the Welsh Government turn that slowly.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Plaid Cymru and I are of the view that this is unacceptable. Educators within the sector are of the opinion that it is unacceptable, and, indeed, the Welsh Government policy itself states that this is unacceptable. So let us now take serious, determined steps to create this one Welsh-medium continuum. It’s not enough on its own, of course, but it is a key part of a broader strategy. If we do that, then perhaps we will succeed in reaching that target of a million Welsh speakers.

Thank you very much. I have selected the four amendments to the motion. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete point 4 and replace with:

Notes that:

a) Education in Wales is being reformed, Qualifications Wales is strengthening the Welsh Second Language GCSE as an interim measure, and from 2021 the new curriculum will remove the distinction between Welsh and Welsh Second Language; and

b) The Welsh Government will publish plans and timelines for curriculum and assessment change for Welsh in schools.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Diolch. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendments 2, 3 and 4 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 2—Paul Davies

Add as new point at end of Motion:

Notes the importance of Welsh language skills development in pre-school playgroups.

Amendment 3—Paul Davies

Add as new point at end of Motion:

Calls upon the Welsh Government to improve Welsh language skills development in all Flying Start settings.

Amendment 4—Paul Davies

Add as new point at end of Motion:

‘Calls upon the Welsh Government to set out its plans for developing Welsh language skills within vocational courses and studies undertaken in community learning settings.’

Amendments 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the amendments in the name of the Welsh Conservatives.

May I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this matter of Welsh as a second language back to the Chamber so soon in the Assembly term? The Government amendment shows that there are constraints, might we say, on your cosy relationship after all. But, by bringing it back so quickly, it shows that some things can be done quickly, and we support entirely the point that the Welsh Government has wasted time since Sioned Davies’s report. For that reason, we would prefer to support the motion without the Government amendment, if possible, because we are here to hold the Government to account, and to remind the people of Wales that young people are still entering and leaving our education system without the advantage that the system can give them, namely better Welsh language skills.

Also, deleting point 4 of the motion would mean refusing to face the central challenge, which is workforce skills. It’s impossible to say anything meaningful about the quality of qualifications, or to move forward in terms of the difference between Welsh second language and first language, unless you face the fact that teachers and education professionals have to achieve this. The capacity isn’t there yet to do that.

I would like to focus on these matters of quality and ability, and why we have tabled our amendments, as they stand, to focus on qualifications. The introduction of exams in 2020 or the following year means that anyone starting in year 7 this year or next year would sit those exams. They would have had experience of the English-medium primary sector as it is now. Despite the fact that the Welsh language has been a compulsory part of the curriculum at all ages since 1999, it is fair to say that many children will reach their secondary schools with a lack of skills, understanding and confidence to start Welsh language classes, as they would be for French classes. For some, they would consider this as another lesson in modern languages, rather than an opportunity to develop a core part of their identity and everyday skills.

So, my question for this cohort of young people is: how will the new curriculum help them to achieve a higher level than what has been in existence in the past? Their experience in primary school will be no different to that of the previous cohort, and that experience, individual young people’s talents, and the change in teachers’ expectations, I think, will mean that it would be unrealistic to expect this cohort to sit the same exam as their peers who have grown up through the Welsh-medium system.

This doesn’t mean that the content of the course in secondary school for Welsh as a second language can’t be challenging. But there’s no point having that discussion about a more challenging course included in a continuum, unless children arrive at secondary school having had more contact with the Welsh language, and it being a core part of their experience in primary school. I don’t want pupils to fail their exams in 2020 or 2021 because their earlier years in school have failed to prepare them. That’s why points 4(b) and 4(c) shouldn’t be deleted from this motion—because they are relevant to the primary sector as well.

There’s one problem with this motion, which is the timetable. If fundamental change for the role of Welsh language in our English-medium schools was to be implemented today, then those children wouldn’t sit GCSEs until 2027. They are the ones who have the chance to be able to sit the same exams as their Welsh-medium peers.

So, what’s going to happen to the exam in the meantime to protect its reputation and the number of people who pass it? Are we considering steps similar to the science GCSE, with a differential curriculum and exams, perhaps? I don’t know what those plans are at present, but this is not a long-term aim. The aim of our amendments today is to strengthen the message that, in order to normalise the Welsh language for everyone, to create an education system that can do this, and exams that reflect this aim, we have to start before children go to school. We have to include that workforce within points 4(b) and 4(c).

That was just a point to remind, in point 4. I’m coming to an end here. The Welsh language is a skill in the workplace, it is a communication skill and is part of our way of life. It doesn’t end at school. Thank you.

Thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate today. The issue of the Welsh language is an important one. I wonder whether it might have been better to spend a little more time on this issue than the half hour allocated. We’re doing Brexit again—it’s like groundhog day.

I agree with the principles supporting this motion, but I feel that it may well fall short of what it seeks to achieve. I will therefore be supporting the amendments put forward by the Welsh Government, though I support the first three points of Plaid Cymru’s motion. I’ve read carefully the letter that all Members have received from Qualifications Wales, and I’ve also followed the arguments advanced today by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg. In their letter, Qualifications Wales say:

‘substantial changes to qualifications must be managed carefully to allow sufficient time for teachers and learners to prepare; changes made too quickly are likely to pose risks to learners and ultimately to the success of any new qualifications.’

I don’t think that they’re suggesting 800 years, though, but I do think that it does reflect—if I’ve understood correctly—some of the realities that were identified by Suzy Davies, I think.

In my previous occupation, I designed, validated, monitored and delivered qualifications. My view, based on that experience, is that the key to success is to place the learner at the heart of the programme that you are creating; what are the learners’ needs, what are their motivations, what are their hopes for the future? I feel that point (a) of the motion has at its heart an aspiration for our language, but not necessarily for our learners. It’s a good aspiration and one that also raises a political question: why aren’t we further advanced than we are today? That’s a reasonable question to ask, and it should be asked and, indeed, answered by the Minister, but it’s not one that is helpful to the learners that we want to support, in my view. In practical terms, point 4(a) could do the opposite of what it seeks to achieve, which is to bridge the gap between aspiration and practical achievement.

I learned Welsh as a second language up to GCSE level, back when the option in English-medium schools was basically, ‘Take it or leave it’. I achieved an A grade but didn’t go on to take A-level Welsh because I still lacked the confidence to study further. That confidence I feel I still lack in Welsh. The very fact that I’m making this speech today in English demonstrates a longer-term failure that the Welsh Government has actually taken steps to address, and we are asking the question today: what more can we do? But there is a deep cultural issue that I’ve seen often in my community that requires any Government intervention to be fully thought through. To give you an example, when I hear Members speaking in this Chamber and I have to pick up the earphone, I feel frustrated that my knowledge of the language is not good enough and it’s a feeling that perhaps fluent Welsh speakers may not always appreciate in that context. Yet it is a classic barrier to learning that we’ve all experienced. When something is difficult, how do we motivate ourselves, how do we avoid giving up and rejecting something—in this case, the Welsh language—that is too tough to achieve?

A good teaching and learning strategy grapples with this challenge but it also takes time to develop, sometimes through trial and error. The motion recognises this in parts, and you could say that sections (b) and (c) perhaps do, but in setting a 2018 deadline for the design and development of the qualification, it limits the time that we have to consider appropriate assessment approaches. I don’t think that additional resources on their own, such as spending money on teacher training, are going to be enough. Time and cultural development are key issues as well.

As I’ve said, I support the principle of the motion but feel that we cannot realistically achieve the aim in point 4(a) before the necessary curriculum reforms are in place. For these reasons, I’ll be supporting the motion as amended by the Welsh Government, which itself commits to publishing a realistic timeline for change.

Thank you very much. I’m going to refer to point 3 in the motion, which is on the importance of the education system in its entirety to reach the Welsh Government’s target of a million Welsh speakers. I’m going to discuss Welsh-medium education, rather than the Welsh second language qualification as such. I do note that the Welsh Government, in the ongoing consultation on increasing the number of Welsh speakers to a million, does note, under the point on education, that:

‘We need to see a significant increase in the number of people receiving Welsh-medium education and who have Welsh language skills, as it is only through enabling more people to learn Welsh that we will reach a million speakers.’

Clearly, education is crucial for you as a Government too in this area.

Today, the vast majority of Welsh speakers do learn the language at school, while the vast majority of those who were born in the middle of the last century and prior to that did learn the Welsh language at home. This is information emerging from the report published by the Welsh Language Commissioner. One of the main reasons for this change is that language transfer at home isn’t as effective now as it has been in the past. It is not that Welsh-speaking parents are less likely to transfer the language; that isn’t the problem. It is that there are fewer families in which both parents speak Welsh. Therefore, if we are to reach this target of a million Welsh speakers, it is crucial that the number of children in Welsh-medium education does increase. Clearly, Welsh-medium education is far more likely to produce Welsh speakers than English-medium education, but, unfortunately, as we have already heard, the percentage of children in Welsh-medium education isn’t increasing. The percentage of Welsh-medium schools was lower in 2014-15 than it was in 2010-11, and the numbers of children educated through the medium of Welsh doesn’t appear to be increasing much either. Therefore, it is clear that we have to be far more ambitious.

We must actually scrap this inconsistency that exists across Wales in which you have a situation where, in Cardiff, out of 124 schools in the authority, only 19 are Welsh-medium or dual-stream schools. In Merthyr Tydfil, out of 28 schools in the authority, only three are Welsh-medium or dual-stream schools. This is in stark contrast to Gwynedd and Ceredigion, where almost all schools are either Welsh medium or bilingual—a total of 167 schools.

The Welsh in education strategic plans are therefore crucially important, and that’s why I raised the question earlier with the Cabinet Secretary for local government, because there are no targets contained within those strategies; therefore, they cannot be held to account, and, therefore, how can we make real progress? We must have realistic targets and realistic timetables, and it’s not me saying that; it was Alun Davies who said that this morning at a committee where I was in attendance. He seems to be agreeing again now, which is excellent.

It may be useful to go back to the recommendations made by the Children, Young People and Education Committee in the previous Assembly—there were 17 very important recommendations that actually do provide a way forward in terms of Welsh-medium education. For example, No. 13:

‘The Minister should use the powers available to him under existing legislation to intervene where local authorities are failing to deliver their WESPs.’

That’s just one recommendation; there are many other excellent recommendations contained here.

So, certainly, we need to raise our game in terms of Welsh-medium education or we will never reach that very laudable target of a million Welsh speakers. There’s a huge amount of work to be done, and we need to drill right down in order to ensure that there is real action. Thank you.

I applaud the sentiments that Hefin David brought in his speech, and I feel very similar to him, because I had the misfortune, when I was in school, back in the 1960s, to be faced with an unpalatable choice at the age of 14: to carry on studying Welsh or to switch to German. I took the decision then to switch to German. The result is that I could make a very passable speech here in German, but, unfortunately, I could not do the same in Welsh. But I hope, by the end of my sojourn in this place I will have achieved reasonable fluency in the language.

UKIP will be supporting the Plaid Cymru motion today, and indeed the Conservative amendments, and we will oppose the Government amendment, because the Government amendment removes the sense of urgency from the motion, and that is what we now need. As Llyr Gruffydd said in his speech, it is the eleventh hour for the Welsh language, and although the 2011 census showed some encouraging signs in the age stratification tables, younger people being able to speak the language, and subsequent surveys in 2013, nevertheless these are self-selecting, and one can’t entirely trust those figures.

At the Eisteddfod this year, the archdruid said that, without the language, we have nothing. I didn’t quite agree with him if you take that literally, but I know what he meant, and I agree with his sentiments, because a language is a pedigree of a nation. It is what actually marks out the Welsh nation, and it is the essential spine of national sentiment in Wales. We’re fortunate in comparison with Ireland in that respect. It’s religion that has been the essence of their nationalism, but in Wales I think language is one of the principle features of it, and it’s one of which I approve. I approve of the aspiration of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and I approve also of the appointment of the Minister to his position. As a robust and combative individual, he is the bulldozer of the administration, and if anybody can achieve this objective, it is him, and I wish him all success in that.

The big problem that we have in a world of globalisation, of course, is the growing dominance of English worldwide and the threat that that poses to all minority or smaller languages. That is the practical difficulty that we have to face in Wales, but what we must seek to achieve is that Welsh does become the language of the playground, of leisure and the home, because that is the way in which its preservation and advance will be obtained.

It’s a very short debate. I agree with Hefin David—it deserved a lot more than 30 minutes. I don’t want to take up too much time, but I just want to put on record that UKIP is fully behind the sentiments behind the motion for debate today, and I hope that we’ll have other opportunities to explore the things that the motion asks for on another occasion.

Thank you very much. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I also add my thanks to Llyr and to Plaid Cymru for finding the time to hold a discussion on this issue this afternoon. The Government will be supporting all of the amendments this afternoon, not because we think these slow down the progress that we are making, but because we want to emphasise where there is agreement around the Chamber this afternoon. I think that there is a great deal more agreement than the debate has perhaps reflected up till now. I will try to emphasise, in the time that I have, where that agreement lies.

Sian Gwenllian and Suzy Davies have emphasised the importance of education in the new strategy we will be launching next year. I agree with you that education is vitally important to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers. Sian Gwenllian has asked whether I would intervene if there were to be schemes that came before us that were insufficient. The answer is that I would intervene. I have made that entirely clear in the Chamber, and Kirsty Williams will be making that clear with the local authorities when they meet tomorrow. We are serious when we talk about creating a million Welsh speakers over the coming years, and we are serious about how we are going to achieve that. And when I say that we’re serious, I do listen to Hefin David’s words, and I listen to what he said about the culture that we’re working within. It’s very important to acknowledge that it’s not the Wales that we would all want to see, but Wales as it is today that we’re working with. That involves moving from where we are at present, with a kind of speed and progress that we want to make, and the speed that we can achieve, accepting where we are today.

There is no disagreement in this Chamber about Sioned Davies’s report. There’s no disagreement that we do have to move from a situation where Welsh as a second language is not succeeding to create Welsh speakers. And we have to move to a continuum of teaching Welsh from the early years to the end of the school period.

We have to move from where we are to where we want to be. The debate that we are having, I think, is how we achieve that, not, perhaps the timetable, because we all know—and to answer Llyr’s question in his opening speech—that we will be moving towards a new curriculum in 2021, and we will be moving towards looking at the kinds of qualifications that we have at that time to see what kind of qualifications we will need for the future. So, we will be considering those issues in 2021.

So, what do we do from today and until 2021? I think that we have to develop the workforce to enable us to ensure that we can expand the provision of teaching of the Welsh language for it to happen in more depth than it has in the past. We have to ensure that we have the resources in the workforce and in schools in order to achieve that. We have to change the curriculum and change the way that we have been teaching. We are changing the curriculum, and I do think that the letter that we have all received from Qualifications Wales does assist us with that, because it shows that we are changing, and changing next year, how Welsh is going to be taught.

All of us—. I do appreciate Hefin’s words, and I had the same kind of options and choices that faced Neil Hamilton. I left school with no Welsh—I wasn’t able to sing ‘Hen Wlad fy Nhadau’. No child, I hope, will face that kind of situation after the changes that we want to see coming into force. So, we have moved on this, and we are making progress. We are going to ensure that there are realistic targets. We could debate now what is realistic and what is unrealistic. I accept that, and I do look forward to that debate. But I do want to be entirely clear that Welsh as a second language will not be a part of the new curriculum. There will be a continuum of Welsh teaching in the new curriculum. Before we move towards that new regime, I do hope that the children of Wales won’t be failed over the interim period, because we are going to emphasise speaking and using the Welsh language, not just learning from books, but speaking Welsh, using the Welsh language, feeling confident to use the Welsh language, having opportunities for people to improve their Welsh to ensure that people and children leaving school feel that they are able to use the Welsh language. We are going to be doing that from next year onwards.

The name, perhaps, won’t please everyone at all times, but I would ask those who are concerned about these things to look at the content and to look at the curriculum. When we do that, I think that there will be more agreement than some might think.

So, I do hope this afternoon—. I am very pleased that we have had the opportunity to debate and consider this issue, and I do hope that we will have an opportunity to do that very soon again. But, please, let no-one leave this debate thinking that there isn’t a commitment by this Government to change the way that the Welsh language is being taught in English-medium schools in Wales. There’s no way that we are going to let the children of Wales leave school unable to speak Welsh.

Thank you. I’ll call Llyr Gruffydd to briefly reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all the Members who have contributed to the debate. Thank you also for the support for the intention behind the motion—the difference is, of course, in how we go about this, as the Minister has said, and at what pace the various different elements are brought together. Of course, that makes it even more distressing to think that three years have passed and we’re still waiting for the Government to tell us what their plan is and what their timetable is. Just imagine how much capacity building could have happened in that three-year period in order to take us closer to our target. But I do accept what the Minister said, and I’m sure that the passion in his voice will be reflected in the way in which this Government will actually take action in this area.

I hear what Hefin David has to say, and I thank him for his contribution. I think he’s quite right in saying that perhaps there hasn’t been enough focus on the learner—in terms of the motion, but more broadly, too. But, of course, what I see is the Robert Hill report in 2013 stating that only in around one school in 10 do pupils make excellent progress in acquiring Welsh second language skills. And that was even before Professor Sioned Davies’s report. Well, that regime is letting learners down, and that’s what makes me impatient to see the change that we do need.

I agree 100 per cent with Sian Gwenllian that the Welsh in education strategic plans do have a lot to answer for, and I’m pleased to hear that the Minister would be willing to intervene. Of course, what we want is to get to a point where there is no need for intervention, because the legwork would have been done, as those plans are being drawn up. So, we look forward to getting to that point. We could be three years closer to our objective, but we are not. I hear the Minister’s comments, and I do hope that this debate will at least have ensured that we have had those commitments and that they have now been made a little more robustly than they have perhaps been in the past. So, thank you all for your contributions.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, I’ll defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.