The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rhun and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Symudwn yn awr at eitem 6 ar yr agenda, sef Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar gasgliadau bin, a galwaf ar Janet Finch-Saunders i gynnig y cynnig.

Motion NDM6205 Paul Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes concern at the three- and four-weekly bin collections proposed by some local authorities across Wales.

2. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure councils collect residual waste no less frequently than fortnightly, to protect public health, and deter fly-tipping.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m just trying to think whether I can find a nice poem about bins, but there we are. [Laughter.]

Last September, and much against the wishes of my constituents, Conwy County Borough Council halved bin collections from fortnightly to monthly in some wards. Thousands of residents since have taken to signing online petitions and have taken to Facebook, on an almost daily basis, to voice their anger and their frustration. Those with young children, worrying about nappy disposal, referring now to their ‘stinking bins’. Others struggling to dispose of pet waste are also having to leave this in bins now for about a month. A resident explains of numerous journeys now to the nearest waste disposal site, just to keep up with the amount of rubbish they are now collecting. Another resident says,

It’s a crazy situation. I’ve ended up burning things on our open fire to save space in the black bin. It’s not fair. They’ve reduced our collections to every month. Even three weeks would have been bad enough.’

The threat to our public and the environmental health impact of this policy is already obvious. Another constituent:

It’s a real struggle now, with the monthly bin collections, and during the summer it’s going to get a whole lot worse.’

The Llywydd took the Chair.

In reducing bin collections, my authority, though, now allows cherry-picking as to what items the company operating the local recycling and waste disposal centre will accept, often turning people away, with simply nowhere to dispose of their residual waste. Introducing the four-weekly scheme in Conwy, the cabinet member boasts of having surveyed and consulted with residents. Yes, they did consult—11,000 people responding, showing that, already, there was a 99.6 per cent recycling rate, 39 per cent finding their wheelie bin full or overflowing within two weeks, and 60 per cent stating they wouldn’t cope with a three-weekly or four-weekly collection. This was ignored. So, I ask: how can anyone justify the reasons to halve the number of bin collections and then claim that people have been consulted? Now, this at a time when incidents of fly-tipping in the borough have increased, growing annually since 2013. At the time, raising council tax by an inflation-busting 5 per cent in 2016-17—one of the highest in the UK—’How is that fair?’, you might ask.

We are calling today to protect waste-collection services and to pledge that a Welsh Conservative-led council would ensure that residual waste is collected at least fortnightly. Yes, Assembly Members, we would reinstate fortnightly bin collections. We will work to deter and prosecute those guilty—[Interruption.] Yes.

This does recall Eric Pickles’s joyous attempt to actually take it back to weekly bin collections, which bit the dust ignominiously. Can I ask whether she has consulted, in framing this motion, with any organisations at all who are involved in recycling and reducing the amount of waste? Or has she consulted with any local authorities who, in Wales, have driven down the recycling level, and if not in Wales, then perhaps with the Somerset partnership, which involves five local authorities, Conservative local authorities—

This is an intervention, not a speech.

[Continues.]—who have moved to three weeks? Has she consulted with them?

I can assure the Member that I have very much consulted on this, as has my colleague Darren Millar.

We will work to deter and prosecute those guilty of fly-tipping. Gwynedd and Blaenau Gwent have seen a 30 per cent increase in spend on tackling their fly-tipping problems, all as a result of reducing the frequency of collection services. Fly-tipping incidents of small van loads have risen by 2,854 occurrences in just two years. Make no mistake, we would enforce strict penalties on those found guilty of discarding their household waste, rubbish and furniture in our countryside and in our towns. In a fair and just society, why should the majority of law-abiding citizens have to suffer by the selfish actions of some and the inadequate provision by their own local authority? Across Wales, a broad policy of introducing new recycling receptacles has cost taxpayers millions. And such inconsistent policy has seen receptacles broken or going missing over inclement weather, adding a further cost burden to council tax payers.

If we are working towards a zero-waste nation, we need to look at this, though, at both ends of the argument. We must get to grips with those manufacturers who choose to seduce us with their packaging, rather than the quality of the product. As a consumer, I do not want to see bananas wrapped in plastic or my eggs in Styrofoam. The over-production of packaging is a problem that we, as a law-making institution, should be getting to grips with, and I would welcome any legislation on this. Our constituents are paying for its production and are paying for its disposal, and it is simply not fair.

There is too much plastic in our lives, and there is too much plastic taking lives. Just look at our marine environment. Look at our rural areas and our countryside. Welsh Government now needs to be thinking more effectively in the interests of their householders, their residents and local authority taxpayers. This Government needs to provide sensible guidance for our local authorities. Llywydd, penalising our residents is not the answer in terms of our bin collections. We should and we must be looking at far more long-term sustainable solutions for our waste disposal.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Simon Thomas to move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Delete all and replace with:

1. Notes the three- and four-weekly bin collections proposed by some local authorities across Wales.

2. Notes the Welsh Government’s target from Towards Zero Waste that all sectors in Wales will be recycling at least 70 per cent of their waste by 2025.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to enable people to increase the amount of waste they recycle through banning Styrofoam packaging.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to enable people to increase the amount of waste they recycle through introducing a plastic, glass and can deposit scheme.

Amendment 1 moved.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. And I do move the motion, and I am trying to pick out the gems from the opening speech of this debate. It’s January. We have local elections in May. I think we’re going to have lot more of this. [Interruption.] Let’s all prepare ourselves. I’m sure that Plaid Cymru will bring forward a debate on our local elections at some stage as well. But I think that it does seem to be that this debate is very much targeted on Conwy and certain issues in north Wales. [Interruption.] But, you know, there is a target—[Interruption.] Let me get started, at least. [Laughter.] Hang on, hang on. There is a reasonable—towards the end of Janet Finch-Saunders’s speech, we got somewhere. If we are looking at a genuine attempt to reduce packaging in our lives, a genuine attempt to not just get rid of Styrofoam but actually ban it, and if we are looking at a genuine attempt to get more people to recycle, so we aim at that national aim that we have within Wales of a zero-waste nation, and a particular target of 70 per cent, which the Welsh Government has—

Plenary was suspended at 17:09.

The Assembly reconvened at 17:41, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Therefore, we will recommence. Apologies to everyone for that unexpected break. Simon Thomas.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. So, the lesson of that is never debate the national grid in the National Assembly. [Laughter.]

Let’s get back to the debate and I think the point that I was trying to make was one to emphasise that, in fact, there is no evidence. There might be anecdotal evidence, but there is no actual evidence of a link between different rates of recycling collection, black bags and so forth and any kind of public hygiene problem or any kind of infestation of any sort. The fact is that every local authority in Wales collects compostable rubbish—that’s the food waste that would attract pests—weekly. There’s been no change over the years to the fact that that kind of rubbish is collected weekly. So, there is no evidence, actually—

Sorry to intervene, but, actually, that’s not true in Swansea—it’s fortnightly. [Interruption.] Apologies, I got that wrong. Ignore me.

I believe that, in fact, in Swansea, where my mother lives, it’s a weekly compost food collection. My mother puts it out every week, anyway—perhaps that’s the problem. [Laughter.] [Interruption.] But, no, let me come to that point. All the other authorities have various times for recycling bags, plastic bags. I live in Cardiff and Ceredigion now, so I know the difference between the two. It is confusing, I accept, but it’s a local choice. This is what is at the heart of this debate. If the Conservative Party are unhappy with what their local authority is doing, vote them out in May, and vote in a party that will take recycling seriously, like Plaid Cymru. Other parties may be available, who knows? [Laughter.]

But at its heart, this debate aims at completely the wrong target. There are a few Conservatives there who will know in their hearts that this debate is aiming at completely the wrong target. The target is reducing waste in the first place, dealing with packaging, dealing with items like Styrofoam, bringing in the potential for a deposit-return scheme in Wales, so that glass and plastic is not just used once, and then waits to be recycled—even if it is recycled, that’s quite a wasteful process—but is reused. Reuse is the key here.

Towards the end of her remarks, Janet Finch-Saunders, I do remember, before the lights went out, said—I got that right, didn’t I? Yes. [Interruption.] She said she would support legislation that did these things, that addressed the packaging. So, I’m really delighted at that because my bid for a private Member’s backbench Bill is precisely that piece of legislation. So, I now look forward, if I’m successful in the ballot, to her support for that legislation.

So, I think we’ve all exhausted ourselves waiting for the rest of this debate, so I’ll conclude just with this, and by saying that—[Interruption.] There’s no need to be too thankful for that. [Laughter.] Just to say that there are amazing examples, both inside Wales and outside Wales, of where other nations and countries and cities have dealt with recycling and waste in an effective way. What they’ve had to do is bring the population with them, and what we’ve done on the whole in Wales is bring people with us. When we were in recess, Dai Lloyd told me that when he first suggested in Swansea that they went from a weekly to a fortnightly black bag collection, there was uproar. But now people, certainly those I know, accept this as part of their contribution, and they see the benefits. They see the waste they throw out go down every week and they see the waste that they know is going to recycling, and employing people in that, by the way, being reused. I think on the whole we’ve got people behind us. If we hadn’t got people in Wales behind us, we wouldn’t have become the fourth most successful nation in the European Union, if we were an independent nation, in that context.

So, let’s look at good practice elsewhere, let’s look at good practice within Wales and let’s bring up those authorities in Wales that are very reluctant to improve their recycling rates. But, if you couch it in terms of a debate about when black bags and bins are collected, you’re going to mislead people, you’re missing the target and, in fact, you’re putting people off from joining us in the very real battle that we have, to recycle more, reuse and use less.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to formally move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 2—Jane Hutt

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes Wales’ success in reaching 60 per cent recycling in 2015/16 and achieving the highest recycling rate in the UK and the 4th highest rate in Europe.

2. Accepts the autonomy of local authorities, in the spirit of localism, in deciding how often to collect residual waste whilst recognising that less frequent waste collections do not lead to increased fly tipping or constitute public health risks.

Amendment 2 moved.

Formally.

I think it’s a very interesting debate and I would praise Conwy council for its exemplary doorstep recycling, which I think is the way forward for all our local authorities. So, I think it’s really disappointing that one of the local councillors, who also happens to be an Assembly Member, is decrying the move made by Conwy council, because I think they’re doing absolutely everything that we should be asking of local authorities.

As the amendment proposed by Jane Hutt says, less frequent waste collections—[Interruption.]

You can seek to intervene on the Member, if you wish.

Can I just intervene quickly? Thank you.

If it’s a factual point, yes.

I was very proud to be a member of Conwy County Borough Council and its cabinet, but I’m no longer a member of Conwy County Borough Council.

Thank you. I apologise for that mistake.

As the amendment says, less frequent waste collections do not lead to increased fly-tipping or constitute public health risks. There’s absolutely no evidence of that. Nevertheless, it’s one of the issues that always gets raised whenever anybody suggests that we might reduce the amount of collections of residual waste. Because if people are recycling properly, then the amount of residual waste is absolutely tiny and it’s perfectly possible to wait and collect that on a three or four-weekly basis.

A tiny, further intervention—

I haven’t taken a further intervention.

A tiny intervention—

No, I have not taken a further intervention.

We have to be proud of our record in Wales as the best in the UK and the fourth best in Europe on recycling. So, in order to stay focused on achieving our target of at least 70 per cent by 2025, we have got to observe the three Rs. In case anybody isn’t aware of what the three Rs are, they are reduce, reuse and recycle.

There is no such thing as throwing away. There is a cost to disposing of waste, whatever method is used. So, our first obligation has to be to reduce the amount of waste that we have, whether that is the shocking amount of food waste—one third of all food is thrown away before it even reaches the table. And as Suzy Davies said, in the context of increasing food poverty and the record number of admissions to hospital in Abertawe Bro Morgannwg for malnutrition, this is a really sobering context in which we need to discuss the need to reduce food waste. I applaud the work that the Government is doing, employing WRAP and really educating people on how we absolutely should not be wasting food.

So, number two, we also obviously need to have conversations with the packaging industry to ensure that they are reducing the amount of waste that they generate that’s unnecessary.

In terms of reusing, the Plaid amendment talks about banning Styrofoam packaging, and I agree. Tomorrow, I have a meeting with one of the high-street coffee-shop companies and I commend the work that they have done to encourage their customers to bring their own containers, using a 25 per cent reduction in the cost of a cup of coffee to get customers to change their behaviour. It’s a really effective way of people bringing their own cup, getting the cup of coffee and then obviously reusing it. I absolutely agree that Styrofoam cups and, indeed, plastic-coated paper cups are absolutely abominable because neither of them can be recyclable just by definition. So, we absolutely have to bear down on that.

We absolutely have to think of new ways in which we can reduce waste. For example, I’d like to see a deposit-and-return scheme on all drinks so we don’t have to waste public and community resources on picking up the litter that is generated by cans and bottles. We also need to ensure that new products are available that can be made of recyclable materials, and I commend the work of the BEACON project, based at Bangor University, to find new recyclable packaging for everyday products like egg boxes.

But, focusing on the motion, we know that 50 per cent of what is in most household residual waste could be recycled. It’s just that households are just not catching up with their obligations as citizens to do the right thing. Where they don’t do the right thing, we need to bear down on them, and I pay tribute to the work that Cardiff council is doing to ensure that people are adhering to the waste collection system that’s in place: they are being prosecuted for littering, they are being prosecuted for fly-tipping, and 1,600 fixed penalties were issued in the last 12 months. So, I think that this is a completely misfocused motion, and I’ll be very pleased to vote against it and instead support the Labour amendment.

We in UKIP support today’s Conservative motion. We are also concerned at the public health implications of reducing rubbish collections, and we acknowledge a likely connection between reducing collections and seeing a consequent increase in fly-tipping.

There has been a drive by councils across Wales in recent years to reduce collections in order to meet Welsh Government recycling targets. We do acknowledge that, statistically, the Welsh Government has performed well in terms of recycling rates, but we would ask: at what cost? Here in Cardiff, there have been several changes to the rubbish collections in recent years. Currently, there is a black bag collection every fortnight and one is limited to how many bags one can put out. However, the reduction, even from a weekly to a fortnightly collection, has been accompanied by fairly sizable anecdotal evidence of increased fly-tipping. This has been a major feature of the letters page in the ‘South Wales Echo’, and a recurring feature at that, with readers sending in considerable photographic evidence of fly-tipping in their area. This led to the council having to introduce a ‘Let’s clean up the streets’ campaign at the end of last year.

So, what does the available factual data reveal about fly-tipping in Cardiff? In 2015-16, Cardiff recorded the largest increase in fly-tipping incidents of any council in Wales. Across Wales as a whole, fly-tipping increased by 14 per cent during this period, when many councils changed their collection policies to comply with recycling targets. Surely this indicates a causal link between reducing rubbish collections and increasing fly-tipping, but both Labour and Plaid Cymru in their amendments today seem to deny this link. This seems to be flying in the face of the evidence.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Is it possible that the increasing amount of prosecutions is because of an increased enthusiasm for ensuring that we don’t have waste littering our streets?

I will accept the possibility. Will you also accept that there’s a possibility that it could be because of reduced rubbish collections?

Evidence, evidence. Where’s the evidence?

Ultimately, we may be in danger of patting ourselves on the back for meeting recycling targets whilst ignoring the increasing piles of rubbish dumped in fields and back alleys. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and some other towns are seeing more and more residents moving into small housing units like flats, or into shared accommodation like houses in multiple occupation. Many occupants of these kinds of premises simply don’t have room in which to store multiple bags of different kinds of waste, so we have to bear this reality in mind when we think about waste collection.

There is also the economic reality of councils having to juggle their budgets. At the same time as Cardiff has reduced rubbish collections, it has also closed one of the city’s four recycling centres and shortly proposes to close another. The same kind of financial dilemmas will also confront other councils who may make similar decisions. This is where grand and laudable hopes of meeting targets will clash with hard financial reality.

I think that a fortnightly waste collection is the bare minimum that councils should be providing, and I would urge the local government Minister to at least consider providing councils with guidance to this effect. I don’t think this is an abrogation of the principle of localism; I think it’s a sensible defence of public health.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Lywydd. I thank everyone for taking part in the debate today. Members will have heard me say on many occasions that the frequency of residual waste collections is a matter for individual local authorities, and this allows them to take into account local needs and reflect local priorities. We know that the Conservative Party is keen on localism and autonomy in local government, but in common with their party in Westminster, and in particular Eric Pickles, they seem, for some reason, to believe that localism shouldn’t apply to the collection of waste.

Increasing recycling rates and reducing residual waste are not just important because of EU targets, although, of course, that’s what the ‘Daily Mail’ would want us all to believe. Increasing recycling rates is important because it reduces our carbon emissions. It saves our councils money through reduced costs of disposal and it’s hugely important for a successful circular economy. Simon Thomas is absolutely right: the people of Wales have embraced this so much so that, as he said, we are fourth in the world now in relation to our waste collection, and first in the UK.

Evidence from the development of waste services by local authorities over the last decade shows the benefit of restricting residual waste to increase recycling. And it also shows how local authorities have been able to reduce the costs of disposal. All local authorities in Wales have restricted their residual waste collections in some way. Fortnightly residual waste collection is now the norm and we’ve seen dramatic increases in levels of recycling as a result. Fifteen of our 22 local authorities have made additional changes, for example, by further reducing collection frequency or bin size.

However, we know that more than half of the waste in the black bag can be recycled, and if just half of that were recycled, Wales would then exceed 70 per cent recycling. Welsh Government is supporting WRAP, the WLGA and local authorities across Wales on activities to move us closer towards that 70 per cent target, which we’ve now set for 2025. That support includes: helping councils move towards the blueprint model; investing in improved recycling facilities; further reductions to bin sizes; focusing on the recycling of non-household waste; targeting the small numbers of people who are still not recycling at all; and further reductions to residual waste collections.

We are aware of no evidence linking changes in residual waste collection frequencies to either increased fly-tipping or to impacts on public health. And I should tell Gareth Bennett that incidents of fly-tipping in Wales have reduced by 25 per cent since 2010, despite all of our authorities, as I say, operating some form of residual waste restriction.

With regard to the public health aspects of reduced residual collections in Wales, 99 per cent of households are able to access weekly food waste collections across all Welsh council areas. Some also offer separate collection of other products, such as nappies and incontinence pads. This means that many of the odours historically found in black bin waste are removed. Research shows that when food waste is removed from residual waste, there is little risk of flies or gull and rodent predation.

We’re currently looking at how we might discourage the use of single-use food and drink containers—and I, too, am meeting someone tomorrow, Jenny Rathbone, from a well-known drinks company in the UK—and that includes coffee cups and polystyrene takeaway containers. We’re also considering our approach to deposit-return schemes, and it’s premature to decide on these issues before the work that I’ve commissioned is completed.

As we said, Wales currently leads the way in the UK in recycling. Simon Thomas mentioned good practice and I have to say, when I attended the British-Irish Council meeting in Guernsey on waste—I think it was in November—the other countries were looking to here, to Wales, to see what we were doing to make sure they could embrace our best practice. But of course we aim to be the first, and Wales, I believe, is a world leader in this field, which is something I think we should all be proud of in this Chamber. The people of Wales have risen to the challenge of increasing recycling rates and we are confident of their ability to recycle more. Diolch.

I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has taken part in this debate, although, I have to say, I’m very disappointed that the Welsh Government are refusing to step in to prevent local authorities in Wales taking further this experiment, which is being trialled, of four-weekly bin collections around the country. And let’s face it, the reason that you can’t find any evidence of public health harm is because no-one else is doing it. There’s a trial on at the moment, and I can tell you that local residents in my own constituency are absolutely furious with the result—.

Will you taken an intervention?

I’ll happily take the intervention.

Conwy County Borough Council has told me that the trial is going very well. If you can provide evidence against that, you tell me.

I’m sure that they will have their rose-tinted spectacles on in terms of the way that the trial is going. But let me tell you this: in terms of the evidence—[Interruption.] In terms of the evidence, local residents are extremely dissatisfied with their waste collection services. They’re extremely unpopular indeed. In fact, in terms of fly-tipping, in terms of litter, they have never seen so much fly-tipping and so much litter at the roadside across my own constituency. Just a two-mile stretch of road, in the week after Christmas, between Kinmel Bay and Abergele had nine separate incidents of fly-tipping on that one stretch of road. Pet waste: you didn’t refer to pet waste at all in your contribution or response, Minister, and yet the fact is that there is a biohazard from pet waste going into bins that are left for four weeks. Now, it may well be that there’s more work to be done in terms of food waste, I accept that: some people are irresponsibly disposing of food waste in their bins when councils have the opportunity to collect that at the kerb side. But that is not taking place in some places, and, in particular with pet waste, there is a biohazard that is not being fully considered and isn’t being considered anywhere in Wales as far as I can see.

In terms of clinical waste as well, the one big problem that we have in Conwy now is that the local authority is collecting clinical waste separately—incontinence products and other medical dressings, et cetera—but, unfortunately, it’s in a receptacle that is identifiable by people, which highlights the fact that vulnerable individuals are living in those properties. That’s unacceptable. It’s also not very nice for those individuals to have that highlighted to their neighbours. With nappies, there are nappy collections taking place from households where there are young children, but what if you’re a carer for a young child, a grandparent who regularly looks after a child? You’re not entitled to have a nappy receptacle, even if you’re caring for that person full time while your son or daughter is going to work. Other people have highlighted the need to do more on recycling. I agree with them. There are all sorts of things that we can be doing, but four-weekly bin collections is not the way forward and you’re not going to keep the Welsh public onside in terms of them participating in recycling simply by axing bin collections. If you think that further bin cuts are the way to promote more recycling, then why not scrap all bin collections altogether to force people to recycle? Because that’s where your logic leads you, I’m afraid.

So, at the end of the day, we need to do everything we can to promote recycling, and we can certainly do things in terms of reducing the size of bins to promote people’s responsible behaviour, but four-weekly bin collections certainly isn’t the way. If I could just say one more thing: when you are in Government, trying to promote recycling, you have to invest in it. In Conwy, they’ve seen a £185,000 cut in the environment grant for next year as a direct result of your Government’s investment strategy. You’re not going to promote recycling by not investing in the local authorities that are doing their job well, and I want to pay tribute to Conwy for its current recycling rate. But this isn’t a way to take the public with you. If you want to take the public with you, you’ve got to work with them and you’ve got to provide decent services. Cutting their bin collections isn’t the right way forward.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.