The next item on our agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government on local government reform, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. In October, I set out the broad parameters of a way forward on local government reform. Today, I have published for consultation a White Paper, ‘Reforming Local Government: Resilient and Renewed’. I am grateful to those in this Assembly, in local government and in wider public service who have offered significant help in refining the original proposals. This engagement has shown a shared commitment to greater regional working. It has helped to confirm those areas where a more systematic approach to regional working would benefit people and communities, and support the local government workforce to deliver essential public services.

The proposals in the White Paper are the outcome of this shared endeavour. They reflect the many discussions held with leaders, members and officers across all local authorities and their partners in other public services and in the voluntary sector. The White Paper sets out proposed arrangements for regional working; a strengthened role for councils and councillors; a framework for any future voluntary mergers; and an outline of the way forward for community councils.

My starting point has always been the vital importance of good local government here in Wales. We need local government to be resilient and be able to work with citizens and other public services to create sustainability for the future. Those who work in local government, or represent it, want the same thing. This requires more progress on collaborative working.

Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, Lywydd, y mae’r Papur Gwyn yn adeiladu ar yr ymagwedd ddeublyg a nodwyd yn natganiad mis Hydref. Mae'n cadarnhau'r bwriad i fandadu gweithio rhanbarthol ar gyfer cynllunio trafnidiaeth strategol, rhai swyddogaethau cynllunio defnydd tir a datblygu economaidd, ac yn cynnig y dylid cyflawni’r cyfrifoldebau hyn ar y tri ôl troed a gynrychiolir gan ranbarthau presennol Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru.

Un o nodweddion calonogol y trafodaethau ers mis Hydref yw bod awdurdodau lleol eu hunain wedi nodi ystod ehangach o wasanaethau sy'n addas i’w cyflawni ar lefel ranbarthol. Ym mis Hydref, roedd cydbwysedd y cyngor yn ffafrio mandadu olion troed y byrddau iechyd ar gyfer cyflawni dibenion fel gwella addysg, diogelu'r cyhoedd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn rhanbarthol. Mae'r drafodaeth fanylach wedi amlygu pryderon y gallai glynu’n gaeth at ôl troed y byrddau iechyd ar gyfer gwasanaethau eraill olygu darnio unedau mwy o gydweithio sydd eisoes yn bodoli, neu rwystro datblygiad trefniadau newydd ar raddfa fwy.

Mae'r Papur Gwyn felly yn cynnig rhywfaint o hyblygrwydd ychwanegol i gytuno ar olion traed ar gyfer y dibenion hyn sydd wedi’u mandadu. Byddai’r dewis hwnnw yn gweithredu o fewn fframwaith a bennir gan Lywodraeth Cymru gyda’r nod o gael gwared ar orgyffwrdd a hyrwyddo symlrwydd. Bydd hyblygrwydd dan arweiniad yn osgoi'r angen am newid trafferthus i drefniadau rhanbarthol sefydledig ac effeithiol, gan greu posibilrwydd o drefniadau mwy arloesol pan fo hynny'n briodol. Mae'r adroddiad iaith, gwaith a gwasanaethau dwyieithog a gomisiynwyd gan fy rhagflaenydd, er enghraifft, yn argymell datblygu strategaeth ieithyddol-gymdeithasol ar gyfer siroedd Ynys Môn, Gwynedd, Ceredigion a Sir Gaerfyrddin. Gallai hyblygrwydd o ran trefniadau gwaith rhanbarthol ganiatáu inni ystyried dull o'r fath, ac rwy'n edrych ymlaen at wneud mwy i archwilio hyn a phosibiliadau eraill yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori.

Lywydd, gadewch imi droi yn awr at fater llywodraethu. Mewn trafodaethau manwl ers mis Hydref, mae cydbwyllgor statudol cryfach, neu bwyllgor cydlywodraethu, wedi dod i'r amlwg fel y model llywodraethu a ffefrir. Mae'r Papur Gwyn yn cynnig y dylai'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddeddfu i greu llwyfan cyffredin cyson a chadarn y byddai pob awdurdod lleol yn gweithredu arno, gan roi sail statudol i waith y pwyllgorau cydlywodraethu hyn.

Rwyf hefyd yn bwriadu manteisio ar y cyfle a gynigir gan y Papur Gwyn hwn i gynnig rhoi darpariaeth ar gyfer awdurdodau cyfun ar y llyfr statud. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau bod y pwerau angenrheidiol wedi eu sefydlu os bydd awdurdodau lleol yn dangos y byddai dull awdurdod cyfun yn helpu i gyflawni ein hamcanion cyffredin yn y dyfodol.

Mae'r Papur Gwyn yn amlinellu ffordd o ddefnyddio model cyfuno cyfraniadau i ariannu'r trefniadau rhanbarthol. Bydd eisiau i’r Aelodau hefyd fod yn ymwybodol fy mod i’n bwriadu cyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig y prynhawn yma i ymdrin â'r agenda ddiwygio ehangach o ran system cyllid llywodraeth leol.

Lywydd, dylwn dynnu sylw at un agwedd arall ar y Papur Gwyn sy'n ymwneud â mwy o gydweithio. Mae'r ddogfen yn amlinellu cyfres o gamau gweithredu i gyflymu cynnydd awdurdodau lleol o ran rhannu gwasanaethau cefn swyddfa. Mae hwn yn faes lle mae cynnydd wedi bod yn anghyson a lle mae'n debygol y bydd potensial i wella effeithlonrwydd, cydnerthedd ac ansawdd gwasanaethau; mae’n rhaid inni ddechrau manteisio ar hyn.

Cyn belled ag y mae cynghorau cymuned dan sylw, mae'r Papur Gwyn yn tynnu sylw at y rhan bwysig y maen nhw’n ei chwarae mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru gan gydnabod yr amrywiaeth enfawr yn y trefniadau presennol. Fel y cyhoeddwyd ym mis Hydref, rwy’n bwriadu cymryd camau i gefnogi cynghorau cymuned i fod yn fwy effeithiol yn y tymor byr, ond rwyf hefyd yn bwriadu comisiynu adolygiad annibynnol cynhwysfawr o'r sector. Bydd hwn yn llywio trafodaeth am ddyfodol cynghorau cymuned a beth yw’r ffordd orau o ddefnyddio'r trefniadau presennol a’u gwneud yn nodweddiadol o'r system yn ei chyfanrwydd.

Lywydd, mae’r Papur Gwyn yn disgrifio sut yr ydym yn bwriadu bwrw ymlaen â’r agweddau hynny ar y Bil drafft llywodraeth leol, a gyhoeddwyd yn 2015, a gafodd gefnogaeth eang, fel darparu pŵer cymhwysedd cyffredinol, dull newydd o wella perfformiad a strategaethau i ymgysylltu’n well â’r cyhoedd. Rydym wedi ail-lunio’r cynigion hynny ac eraill, fodd bynnag, i daro eglurder newydd ar nodau cyffredin, gan ddarparu hyblygrwydd i awdurdodau lleol i benderfynu sut i gyflawni’r amcanion cyffredin hyn. Mae'r dull hwn i’w weld, er enghraifft, yn ein cynigion i roi pwerau i'r awdurdodau lleol i ddewis rhwng gweithredu drwy system lywodraethu â chabinet neu bwyllgor, neu i benderfynu beth yw’r ffordd orau o roi gwybod i’w hetholwyr am weithgareddau cynghorwyr. Mae'r Papur Gwyn hefyd yn gwahodd barn gychwynnol am gyfres o ddiwygiadau i'r trefniadau etholiadol ar gyfer llywodraeth leol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys mesurau i wella cofrestru pleidleiswyr a phleidleisio, fel cofrestr Cymru gyfan a phleidleisio drwy'r post neu’n electronig, yn ogystal â gostwng yr oedran pleidleisio ar gyfer etholiadau llywodraeth leol i 16. Rwyf hefyd yn ceisio barn am gyflwyno cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol ganiataol i alluogi prif awdurdodau i ddewis mabwysiadu naill ai system etholiadol cyntaf i’r felin neu system pleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy, gan fod Bil Cymru wedi cwblhau ei daith drwy'r Senedd erbyn hyn. Rwy'n bwriadu ymgynghori ymhellach am y pecyn hwn o fesurau yn ddiweddarach eleni.

Lywydd, mae diwygio yn hanfodol er mwyn i awdurdodau lleol fod yn ariannol gadarn a gallu cynnal a gwella ansawdd eu gwasanaethau. Mae'r cynigion yn y Papur Gwyn hwn â’r nod o ddarparu’r cydnerthedd hwnnw a ffurfio perthynas newydd rhwng llywodraeth genedlaethol a lleol a'r cymunedau y maent yn eu gwasanaethu. Mae wedi bod yn nod imi ers imi ddod yn Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol i adeiladu consensws ynglŷn â’r ffordd ymlaen. Rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn i'r rhai yr wyf wedi siarad â nhw, gan gynnwys aelodau o bleidiau eraill yn y Siambr hon. Bydd llawer ohonynt, rwy’n gobeithio, yn adnabod eu cyfraniadau a'u hawgrymiadau yn y Papur Gwyn ei hun, wrth iddo geisio llunio dyfodol dichonadwy a llwyddiannus i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at glywed barn yr Aelodau y prynhawn yma.

The White Paper and your inclusive approach as Cabinet Secretary are to be welcomed. The county councils have certainly welcomed the opportunity to present their views, and that is reflected to a certain extent in the White Paper. For example, the way they’re to have flexibility in certain areas with collaboration, and the map that they can turn to, do respond to some of the concerns that have been previously raised when these issues have been discussed. The councils themselves often know what will work best, and each area is different—and there is recognition of that in the White Paper. But I also believe that we need a national policy on certain issues for the sake of consistency and to see more effective action.

I have three specific questions, hoping to engender some debate in this Chamber, but more importantly, perhaps, in the councils themselves and among our councillors. Certainly, Plaid Cymru will be discussing the content of your White Paper broadly, including in our local government forum in just a few weeks’ time. The first question is this: do you believe that all of these different layers and maps that will be created will create confusion in the minds of the public? Have you considered how you can overcome this in bringing the White Paper together?

Reducing complexity was one of the recommendations of the Williams commission, and there is a risk that you may create an even more complex and confusing system through this White Paper. I believe that the governance model that is to be adopted will be crucial to all of this. You’ve proposed a joint committee approach, with representatives of all councils coming around the table and, I assume, selecting a chair from their midst. Perhaps an alternative model would make it easier for the public to understand where accountability lies, namely a model that includes a joint committee or a cabinet but would also include a mayor, elected by the people of the region to be a chair or leader of the new joint body. In that regard, the public would know exactly where accountability lay.

The second question relates to a proportional vote as an optional proposal in holding local government elections under the new powers available to Wales. Plaid Cymru welcomes this as a step in the right direction, and it is an issue that we have argued in favour of a number of times in this Chamber. But we would go further, making a proportional single transferrable vote mandatory for all councils. Can you, perhaps, explain why you haven’t taken that particular step? Wouldn’t having consistency and a system that will be fairer provide that consistency across Wales, and wouldn’t that make it easier for everyone to understand? We’ve heard about the complexities of various systems in various states of the United States, for example, but shouldn’t the emphasis be on a system that’s easily understood for all? But we do welcome the move in that direction, and introducing votes for 16 and 17-year-olds is also another important step forward that we are pleased to support. These issues are a practical way of enlivening local democracy where people feel that their vote actually counts.

Thirdly, I turn to the Welsh Language, and I welcome the opportunity that we’ve had to discuss a few ideas. If we are to reach the aim of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, we must acknowledge the importance of economic linguistic planning as a means of strengthening the traditional Welsh-speaking heartlands. Making it mandatory for western councils, namely Anglesey, Gwynedd, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire, to collaborate on strategic economic issues that would benefit the Welsh language would be an important first step, and would show the Government’s specific commitment to the need to link the development of the language with economic development, so I’d ask for your views on that. Will you, in due time, be willing to consider legislating in order to ensure that this western collaboration for the benefit of the Welsh language does actually occur? I look forward to hearing your responses. Thank you.

May I thank Sian Gwenllian for her comments this afternoon and for the opportunity to speak to her over the past months, when we were endeavouring to develop on what’s in the statement to the Assembly this afternoon? Just to say something on the final point that she raised on the Welsh language—there are many issues in the White Paper referring to the Welsh language, and how we can collaborate in the local authorities for the benefit of the Welsh language and future planning. The White Paper alludes twice to Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s report—in chapter 2 of the White Paper. The White Paper is silent on whether that should be mandatory—bringing the county councils together, as Rhodri Glyn referred to, as regards economic development. But, of course, the White Paper is up for discussion and to collate the views of the people from those local authorities to see what they thought was the best way forward for the future.

Ynglŷn â nifer o'r pwyntiau eraill a wnaeth Siân Gwenllian, Lywydd, rwy’n cytuno â hi, wrth gwrs, bod y Papur Gwyn, yn y bôn, yn rhoi dyfarniad ynglŷn â fframweithiau polisi cenedlaethol a materion y mae’n well eu gadael i awdurdodau lleol eu hunain, gan eu bod yn deall eu poblogaethau lleol a'u hanghenion yn well. Credaf fod y Papur Gwyn hwn yn ailfwrw'r berthynas honno o blaid yr awdurdodau lleol eu hunain. Fy agwedd i at hyn yw y dylem weithio'n galed gydag awdurdodau lleol fel partneriaid allweddol i gytuno ar amcanion allweddol, ac yna mae'n rhaid inni fod yn gwbl ymrwymedig i’r amcanion hynny, a gwrthod cael ein taro oddi ar y llwybr. Ond yn aml mae awdurdodau lleol eu hunain mewn gwell sefyllfa i wneud penderfyniadau am sut y gellir cyflawni’r amcanion hynny. Mae'r Papur Gwyn yn adlewyrchu’r meddylfryd hwnnw.

Rwy’n cytuno â hi hefyd bod y mater o gymhlethdod wedi bod yn un yr ydym wedi brwydro yn ei erbyn drwy gydol y broses hon. Rwy'n credu bod yna ffyrdd y gallwn helpu aelodau'r cyhoedd i ddeall sut y mae penderfyniadau sy'n bwysig iddynt yn cael eu gwneud, ble maent yn cael eu gwneud, a sut y gall pobl ddylanwadu ar y penderfyniadau hynny pan eu bod yn dymuno ymgysylltu â nhw. Rwy'n meddwl y bydd swyddogaeth aelodau etholedig yn arbennig o bwysig yn y dyfodol. Rwy'n credu y bydd yn waith newydd ac arwyddocaol y byddwn yn disgwyl i aelodau etholedig gynorthwyo aelodau'r cyhoedd i ddeall y dirwedd newydd, i fod yn eiriolwyr drostynt, ac i wneud yn siŵr bod ganddynt arweiniad arbenigol i ddeall ble mae penderfyniadau pwysig yn cael eu gwneud. Yn bersonol, nid yw syniad meiri etholedig erioed wedi apelio ataf fi, ond mae darpariaeth ar y llyfr statud ar hyn o bryd sy'n caniatáu profi hynny â phoblogaethau lleol lle ceir awydd i wneud hynny.

Yn olaf, o ran y cynnig am gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol ganiataol, rwy’n ymdrin â hynny yn yr un ffordd yn union, Lywydd, ag yr wyf wedi ceisio llunio gweddill y Papur Gwyn hwn: drwy roi penderfyniadau yn nwylo awdurdodau lleol eu hunain. Nid wyf yn credu ei fod yn fater lle bydd un dull yn addas i bob awdurdod lleol, ond yn union fel yr ydym ni yn y Cynulliad hwn yn mynd i allu gwneud penderfyniadau am sut i ethol y Cynulliad hwn yn y dyfodol, rwyf hefyd yn credu ei bod yn deg rhoi’r gallu hwnnw i awdurdodau lleol hefyd fel y gallant hwy eu hunain wneud y penderfyniad hwnnw yn eu hamgylchiadau lleol gyda'u dealltwriaeth leol ac y gallant raddnodi’r ffordd o ymdrin â materion mewn ffordd sy'n adlewyrchu’r ddealltwriaeth leol.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Cabinet Secretary. Having worked with three former predecessors on the issue of moving towards local government reform, I find it extremely refreshing that we as a party have been able to be consulted and engage with you, and I know I’ve enjoyed the meetings we’ve had. I do expect to see that reflected—our policy proposals, our suggestions—throughout the White Paper when it actually arrives.

We do have concerns, however, as a group in terms of how, in terms of local government reform, you are now grafting electoral reform onto the process, and we do feel that this is more about appeasing the political group Plaid Cymru in order to get their support. We would rather have seen a more consensual approach, where we could have all worked together and had a model that worked well for our authorities to deliver efficient and good-quality public services for our electorate. We know that the Williams commission, implemented by your Government—technically cross-party—made some firm recommendations, and, to date, we are wanting to see some of those recommendations implemented.

The Welsh Government’s top priority in local government reform should be what our residents and our council tax payers are asking for. They deserve and they want efficient, well-run services and they also want fair levels of council tax. I can honestly say, in my own constituency of Aberconwy, I haven’t had a single person coming through my office or contacting me about the need for electoral reform here in Wales. What they have come to see me about is how the Welsh Government is moving forward after three years of what has been a chaotic period for local government under Welsh Labour.

Sian Gwenllian did make some very valid points, actually, about the kind of confusion that might arise from some of the proposals mentioned in the statement today and whether there is a real danger that subdividing local government into different regional layers will create a perception of increased bureaucracy and succeed in taking decision making further away from residents. I welcome your mention, on those benches, of elected mayors. We’ve advocated directly elected mayors previously. However, in this instance, I would seek assurances from the Cabinet Secretary here today that any proposals going forward for local reform will not actually, ultimately, cost our council tax payers more and that the process doesn’t become unwieldy in terms of bureaucracy and cost.

Moving on, voluntary mergers are still on the table, and I would ask, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions you’ve actually had with those authorities that came forward bravely during the last term, put forward really good proposals for joint-authority working and were just rejected out of hand by the previous Minister. It would be interesting to know whether you are taking forward any conversations currently about how, if they want to—it’s a cost-effective model—that can go forward?

Going on to council tax, when we last looked at this, when the previous Minister was in post, there was the potential for band D property rates to vary by an extra £624 per year. That would not be welcomed in my constituency. We must remember that council tax under Labour in Wales has gone up 178 per cent, and people now really question what you will do as Cabinet Secretary in Government to actually help our hard-working council tax payers and our pensioners. Do you consider council tax harmonisation to be an issue in relation to regional working, and if you do, how do you propose to address this?

Cabinet Secretary, you have suggested that there will be no additional reimbursement for any of the structures coming forward in your proposed model, either in scrutiny or the regional actual governance. I would ask you to put that on record here today because, again, I know that my constituents would be very unhappy if they were to see extra costings to the political side of any bureaucracy that may come from this. How will regional working really be scrutinised at regional level, but more importantly, at local level? And how will my constituents be able to feed into a north Wales model in terms of being able to have confidence that there will be really strong, robust scrutiny and financial probity? How will portfolio holders be held to account for the actions of their regional working? And where does the democratic accountability lie in that regard?

Now, community councils—I’ll move on—the Wales Office report out today found that many councils do not follow the basic procedural requirements set out in law. In 2015-16, community councils received over £43 million of income, yet incurred over £40 million of expenditure, managing reserves worth over £32 million and long-term assets worth over £180 million. I’ve raised it several times in this Chamber, and with yourself privately, about the need for a fundamental review of our community council system. Thirty-six per cent of councils do not set an appropriate budget. Over 50 councils fail to comply with a statutory timetable for preparing and improving the account statements. Again, what immediate action will you take to ensure that there are far higher rates of compliance with legal requirements in this regard? How will you ensure proper openness and transparency for this level of government, when many of our smaller community councils have had the funding to maintain a website, to maintain published minutes, to maintain a published agenda, and to maintain financial probity, transparency and democratic accountability?

So, you know where my views, and those of my Welsh Conservative colleagues, stand here. We wish you luck, moving forward, with local government reform. We want to be a part of it but, as I said, for us, it’s not about gerrymandering the electoral system. It is about true local government reform. Thank you.

Well, Llywydd, I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for a comprehensive set of questions. Thank you for what she said at the beginning. I look forward to continuing to have opportunities to discuss the detail of these ideas as the consultation period goes on. I understand her party has a different view of electoral reform, but there’s absolutely no suggestion of gerrymandering. These are choices that we will be able to debate here, and we’ve already heard different views of them in the Chamber.

I want to deal as best as I can with the series of very specific questions that the Member has raised. I’m glad she took the trouble to mention voluntary mergers. They do come back onto the table in this White Paper. I have had the opportunity to hear from a number of those councils that previously put forward voluntary merger proposals. I know that some background work will be going on to look at those ideas again. I think what they would say to the Member, as they said to me, is that this point in the electoral cycle isn’t helpful to them and that, before they are able to enter such discussions in any determined way, they would wish to have a refreshed mandate from their local populations.

Tax harmonisation is not a factor in the regional arrangements. The proposal that the White Paper sets out is that money should continue to flow through the 22 local authorities, and then be pooled upwards by them to discharge the new mandatory regional responsibilities. Local authorities have regularly pointed out to me that they do this successfully now. For example, in the education consortia, they agree amongst themselves how much each is to put into that collective pot. And I want a relationship that regards local authorities as mature organisations, capable of grappling with serious challenges, and with a democratic franchise of their own. The role of Government is to provide for a backstop when things don’t work out in the way that we would expect. So, as far as budgets are concerned, the White Paper says the default position would be for local authorities to agree this themselves. We will set out in any legislation a fall-back formula that they would have to apply in circumstances where they were unable to come to agreement.

As far as scrutiny is concerned, the White Paper suggests a menu approach, consistent with the way I’ve already described—the overall methodology behind it. It says that local authorities will be able to choose from a range of different ways of organising scrutiny, deciding which method best suits their local circumstances. Janet asked a very important question about portfolio holders. The joint committee model that we endorse in the White Paper would see portfolio holders from participating local authorities coming together to make those regional decisions. I am determined, despite wanting to be as consensual as possible and wanting to discuss as many things as possible, on these two things, I feel strongly myself: one, that in the end, decisions must rest on the desk of elected members. And one of the dangers of regional committees is that they can provide too much power to officers rather than elected members. I think decisions must be made by people whom other people can get rid of if they decide that that’s what they want to do. And I also wanted to design these regional structures in a way that makes it clear that regional decisions will be made by those portfolio holders coming together. They will go back to their component local authorities to be scrutinised, to answer questions, to be held accountable, but they will not be going back to ask for permission. The law will make it clear that those regional decisions must be regionally discharged, and with the best interest of the whole region at the forefront of the minds of those people making those decisions.

The Member has taken a very close interest, and a very well-informed interest too, in community councils, and I look forward to further discussions with her about the root-and-branch review of community councils that this White Paper signals. The frustration of the auditor general’s report today is that he says that the errors he sees are common errors. They’re the same mistakes being made everywhere, and that they’re very easy to put right. So, the frustration is that we are yet to make the progress we want to in getting community councils to attend to those basic issues that the Member highlighted in her contribution. The White Paper sets out a series of immediate steps we can take to improve the performance of community councils in the here and now, but the purpose of the fundamental review is to take the best of what they do, and there are good examples of them doing very important work in Wales, and to make that characteristic of the system as a whole.

Thanks to the Minister for his statement today. We in UKIP broadly support the intention to reduce the bureaucracy of local government, while, at the same time, striving to preserve some meaningful link between elected local councillors and their constituents. As with most things in politics, this reorganisation needs to be a balancing act. On one hand, we have public concerns over too many administrators, whose work is replicated currently by 22 different departments in Wales, many of them essentially doing the same thing. On the other hand, if we went down the route that the last local government Minister, Leighton Andrews, advocated, then we would end up with eight or nine councils. I fear this outcome may have fatally and irreparably broken the relationship between local members and their electorate.

We have problems enough with councillors trying to represent their communities, notably in the area of planning. For years, local members have tried to fight planning applications, only for the council to be advised by the planning directors that, ‘We will probably lose this one on appeal if we vote against it’, and the developer duly wins his application. So, the local members have little enough influence as it is, and reducing the number of councils to eight or nine would only render them ever more impotent. Really, what we need in the planning process are legally binding local referenda, which is UKIP policy, and we would urge the Minister to look at this in future, if he does genuinely want to empower local people in decisions that have a major bearing on their communities.

Going back to the specific proposals presented today, on paper they do seem to represent a reasonable basis on which to begin what will, clearly, be complicated negotiations with the 22 local authorities. We have to ensure that the Welsh council tax payer gets better value for money, and that we do reduce excess numbers of administrators. At the same time, we cannot be cavalier over this, bearing in mind, as we must, that these are people’s jobs. It’s another balancing act, as is the task of manoeuvring the councils delicately towards implementing more shared services.

We await the eventual outcome of the local government reorganisation keenly, but we are also keen that the Minister ends up with the standardised rulebook that he has spoken of regarding the operation of the joint regional committees, or the joint governance committees, as he calls them. We agree with the principle that all substantive decisions have to be made by elected members, and not officers, and we want to avoid rendering decision making more cumbersome. So, we support the concept that the regional committee itself makes the decisions, and does not simply make recommendations that then have to go back to the respective local councils.

We also have mention for the first time from the Minister of a putative proposal to allow councils to introduce the single transferable vote, or STV, at their own elections, if they so wish. We don’t think this goes far enough, but we do very much welcome the Minister’s movement in this direction. We also like the proposal to allow councils to decide, if they wish, to go back to the old system of governance by committee, rather than council cabinet. Many council tax payers recall with fondness the old system, and would welcome the chance to return to it.

In closing, there is still a long way to go to put this whole reorganisation plan into practice. But this statement does seem to represent a reasonable starting point. Thank you.

I thank the Member for his contribution, and for those parts of the White Paper that he has endorsed. Let me just take the last point first, really, which is, I don’t think it’s possible to do anything other than have a consistent approach to the way that we allocate responsibilities. If it’s right for councils to be able to decide whether they want a committee structure or a cabinet structure, if it’s right to allow councils to decide whether they want to be elected en bloc, or on a third, one third, one third basis, which this White Paper will allow, then it’s right to allow local councils themselves to take the decision on the form of election that best suits them. It’s a consistent thread that runs through the White Paper, and I want to maintain that consistency.

I agree with what Mr Bennett said about the paper being a balancing act; there are different tensions in it. I want to make sure that we do reinforce that meaningful link between local councils, councillors, and the populations that elect them. But, there again, the White Paper suggests that, while it is an obligation on those councillors to demonstrate that they have a continuous relationship with the people who have elected them, it suggests that there is a range of different ways in which a councillor could demonstrate that they are discharging that obligation, and the way that you might do it in a densely populated inner city part of Cardiff might be very different than if you were a councillor in a rural part of Powys or Ceredigion.

I’m not attracted to the idea of planning by referenda, but the White Paper does have a significant section in chapter 2 on some complex planning matters and this is a consultation, so Members who have different views and think that the system could work better in other ways, then of course I hope very much that they will take part in the consultation and allow those views to be explored further.

Firstly, can I welcome the statement and most of the proposals? For the last 25 years I’ve seen proposals for local government change based on the certainty of ignorance. It’s a very welcome break from that. This is so much better than any of the previous proposals, some implemented and most not.

First, could I welcome the proposed power of general competence, something that local government has requested for decades? Secondly, can I welcome the use of the city regions as the footprints for local government? It appears that every time a new proposal for joint working in an area is proposed, a new area is created, and that causes nothing but confusion. So, I think, in answer to perhaps what Sian Gwenllian was saying, this could be better than the current system. I live in Swansea, in what they call a Janus area, because we either look east or west depending on which service it is, and it makes no sense whatsoever to me and most of my constituents.

If city regions are to mean anything, then they have to be the basis for service provision. Otherwise they’ll be seen solely as artificial constructs for economic development only. Shared back-office services will obviously save money—what some people call a ‘no-brainer’—but will mean that some highly paid jobs will move from one area to another, and that might mean moving highly paid jobs out of some of our poorer communities. So there are advantages in terms of saving money, but it’s not just about that, is it? It’s about supporting some of our poorer communities.

I’ve got three questions to the Cabinet Secretary. The first question is: whilst I feel that STV, or ‘guess how many seats you can win, but with seats for everyone’, is not a suitable electoral system, I’m sure others will disagree with me; will the Cabinet Secretary include a supermajority system, that is, that two thirds of a council must support it before a change can be made?

Second question: as I have previously argued, some would probably say ad nauseam, there are services that are best provided at a local level and those that benefit from being large organisations—I think that education and social services are two that immediately come to mind, as the two great county council services; but not only those, trading standards, again, is another service that does benefit from scale—but will the Cabinet Secretary allow councils to decide the size and membership of these joint boards?

Thirdly, while most are outside his remit, will the Cabinet Secretary work with other members of the Government to work towards moving all Welsh Government-funded public services to within the city region footprint?

Can I thank Mike Hedges for what he said in opening? He will know that some of my thinking has been much influenced by discussions with him, and some of his views and in-depth experience of the way that local government works on the ground. In relation to his point about back-office services, a number of Members have made this point—Gareth Bennett made it as well—about the way in which jobs are affected when services are consolidated. The White Paper suggests a gradualist approach to this, but a determined sense that we are on that journey together. In the health service, it took 10 years to go from every health body providing everything for itself to a single national shared service, and sensitivity was needed along the way when it was people’s jobs that were being affected by those decisions. I would hope that I would be very determined that if highly paid jobs were to be affected by back-office consolidation, those jobs would be located in a way that is consistent with the Welsh Government’s economic approach—in other words, those jobs would be deliberately located in those places where the jobs would make the greatest difference. So, I think there are ways in which we can address the issue that the Member very properly raises.

In relation to his three specific questions, there will be different views—we’ve heard them already—on the way in which we can approach a permissive system of choosing electoral arrangements, and where people have ideas to add to the pool that we have laid out in the White Paper, then I’ll be very keen to hear those in the consultation. I do hope, Llywydd, that Members of all political parties here, and the political parties themselves, will want to be interested in the wider set of reforms that the White Paper sets out, using the new powers that we will have to change the way in which we conduct elections in order to make them more accessible and available to people who we want to see participating in them.

Mike Hedges asks me about the size of regional committees. There is a section in the White Paper, in part 2, from memory, that provides some flexibility over the membership of the regional governance committees. I think the only principle it sets down as one that we are currently committed to is that, if there is flexibility, it still means that the flexibility is equally available to all local authorities who are members of the committee. In other words, if you have three members from one council, you’ve got to have three members from them all, and so on.

Finally, in relation to moving all Welsh Government activity into these footprints, we discussed this White Paper, of course, at the Cabinet. I know that my colleagues are committed to that same wish to try and simplify the pattern of regional footprints in Wales, to try and consolidate the work we do on fewer footprints, but to do that in a way that allows time to migrate from things that we have working today to the arrangements we will have in the future, and to do that in a way that is sensitive to those arrangements that are currently working and that we wouldn’t want to disrupt.

Can I make it clear I’m speaking as an individual, rather than representing the Welsh Conservative view on what I’m going to say? It’s not particularly interesting, I suspect, but—[Interruption.] I’ve now obviously—[Interruption.] I’ve now raised expectations. [Laughter.] Can I just say, on extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, I warmly welcome this, if it’s going to happen? I think we should consult on it. I think it would be marvellous to actually be held to account by people going through compulsory education. I think that would be fantastic. I would ask him whether he will be having discussions with his colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Education, about how we could reform the curriculum in terms of how we teach civic education, because this would be an ideal opportunity to do that.

I have to say, I did intend to launch a ferocious attack on this incredible STV policy of not having a central organising principle behind a reform, but just to let anything go in terms of what each council wished to do, but then I realised I’d put the same policy in the 2007 Conservative manifesto. [Laughter.] I have to say that I had a pretty difficult commission, because our own executive didn’t want proportional representation, and we had to sort of show a bit of leg, as it were, in terms of PR to potential partners in a rainbow coalition. So, the wheeze I came up with was, ‘Well, just let councils decide’.

But I have to say, on reflection, it’s really important, if we don’t believe that our electoral system at local level, and also, indeed, at the Assembly level, is not ensuring representation of what is now a political society that has a variety of parties, a multi-party system—if that is breaking down and not delivering good, effective, responsive and efficient local government, then I think we should really address this as a big principle that needs to be sorted out. I really think we should be consistent and that that part of your proposal in the White Paper is, frankly, weak.

Well, of course, I’m always interested in what David Melding has to say. Thank you for what you said on 16 and 17-year-olds. I absolutely agree with him that one of the key arguments for extending the franchise in that way is that it allows you to create an educated and informed citizenry early on in their lives, and hopefully then to be able to go on harnessing the benefits of that during the remainder of the time that we will hope they will be interested in democracy.

When we’ve debated it across the Chamber here, it’s an idea that has had very widespread support. The experience of the Scottish referendum, which we’ve rehearsed here in those debates, is very heartening in the way in which young people at that point in their lives were so engaged in matters that would make such a difference, potentially, to their own futures.

The permissive PR—not only has it appeared in other manifestos here in Wales, but it was put on the statute book, is on the statue book, in New Zealand. Our model in this Chamber has been the New Zealand model. A Labour Government in New Zealand put permissive PR on the statute book there over a decade ago. It has worked in exactly the way that I’ve described here this afternoon. Some local authorities have decided that their circumstances are better suited to one method than the other. There has been a gradual change in the pattern over time, but my understanding is about half of local authorities in New Zealand are now elected by one method and half by another. Only one local authority has changed its system and decided to revert to the one it had before.

There is no great organising principle, I think, at stake here. What is at stake, I believe, is the general principle of this White Paper, which is that we allow local authorities themselves to make the decisions that are right for them, rather than thinking that we, here, in the centre, are better placed than they are to know what is right for their localities. And I don’t think I have been convinced this afternoon by Members who stand up saying that they’re glad that local authorities are going to be able to have the choice in this area, or that area, or that area, but, when it comes to this matter, suddenly decide that we know better than they do. I think consistency of allowing local authorities themselves a menu of choices—choices that will be determined by this Assembly when we come to legislate—but then allowing them to do things in a way that reflects their own needs and circumstances; I think that’s a principle, and it’s one, I hope, that this White Paper reflects.

On Friday, I hosted a meeting, a mini summit, on climate change with 16 and 17-year-olds in the Tŷ Hywel chamber, and it illustrated just how well-equipped 16 and 17-year-olds can be to engage in political matters, because their ideas for changing the world and for delivering on Wales’s climate change obligations were absolutely excellent. So, I very much welcome that proposal and I hope that it will be widely supported.

I think that I also very much like the section of your White Paper on distributed leadership—‘What contribution can I make to resolving this matter?’, which everybody should need to be asking themselves—and the ethos that you are proposing, that we have learning organisations, where the needs of local people and communities are put at the heart of decision making, based on a co-productive relationship. And, in that context, I just wanted to ask you about how this White Paper might address improving our relationship with the third sector, because the auditor general’s recent report is highlighting that local authorities have a rather inconsistent approach to working with the third sector, and they don’t seem to have a methodical, data-driven, accurate quality approach when they’re awarding contracts, which is somewhat worrying. I also reflect on the testimony of the NEA, National Energy Action, saying how difficult it is to work with both many local authorities, and, indeed, with many health boards, to ensure that their expertise is properly used to ensure that people understand how they can improve energy efficiency and reduce their bills. So, I just wondered if you could tell us how the White Paper addresses the need to ensure all local authorities are as methodical in all the other issues you lay out and also in their approach to working with the third sector.

Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for those comments, and particularly for drawing attention to something that we haven’t rehearsed so far in the discussion this afternoon? The White Paper says that, just as we want a new relationship between the Welsh Government and local authorities, so local authorities themselves need to develop a new relationship with the populations that they serve: a relationship based on a view of their local populations as assets, as people who have strengths, as people who have a contribution to make, rather than problems that have to be solved. So, at the heart of the White Paper is that different relationship, that co-productive relationship. It says to local authorities that, in the very tough times—very tough times—that lie ahead, if you’re not able to mobilise the contribution that your population can make to act jointly with you in pursuit of things that matter to local populations, your ability to go on doing the important things you do will be much compromised. The idea of distributive leadership is that everybody who works for a local authority has some leadership responsibilities and the first question you should ask yourself when you come across a problem is not, ‘Who should I report this problem to so that I can make it somebody else’s responsibility?’ The first question you should ask yourself is, ‘What contribution can I make to solving this problem?’ What can I do to make a difference here?’ Then, of course, you will need to mobilise the contributions of lots of other people if you’re going to make a real difference. But it does try to move the debate on from that sort of hierarchical sense that my job is simply to find somebody else who I can make responsible for solving a problem—‘What can I do to make a contribution to it?’

In the points that Jenny raised about the involvement of the third sector and organisations that need to relate to local authorities, I meet third sector organisations twice a year formally to discuss their relations with local authorities. I think they broadly support the regional approach that this White Paper sets out, because I think they believe it will simplify their ability to interact with local authorities, it will allow them to take the good relations that they have in some places and try and make them characteristic of the whole of that region, and it will provide a different set of entry points to other organisations. Instead of having to deal with 22 local authorities about everything, they will have a smaller number and, as a result, more effective opportunities to form those very important contacts and relationships.

I welcome this statement. I think it does represent great progress. I particularly welcome the proposals that will ensure councils work together over issues like regional planning and transport. Of course, we’ve got a very good example already happening in the Cardiff capital region, with 10 local authorities already working closely together to deliver the city deal and, of course, the metro. I’ve also been very pleased to work with my colleague Hefin David on supporting a green belt between Cardiff and Caerphilly, and, last year, we worked together to press for a regional approach to the development of housing on the Caerphilly side of the mountain, which, of course, impacts on the Cardiff North side in terms of traffic. Does he agree that these proposals will make it much easier to tackle these sorts of issues in a regional way and in a way that takes the local authorities’ views—surrounding views—into account?

I also am very pleased about the proposal for the votes for 16 and 17 year olds. I think this is a great opportunity to include young people in our decision making. Does he think that we will have 16 and 17 year olds standing as councillors? Would he welcome that, and would he perhaps agree that we do need a much greater diversification of councillors in any case, and, if we have a lot of young people, that will help towards that? But, of course, there are other groups as well, and some of my concerns about joint governance committees are, if, for example, there’s a joint governance committee of the leaders of the local authorities, as things stand at the moment, most of those would be almost totally male, and we have very few women council leaders—one or two, perhaps. I don’t know whether there’s any way that that can be tackled through this legislation, but, obviously, it could be a consequence of this legislation that the governance committees are not representative of the people as a whole. But, overall, I think this is a great step forward.

I thank Julie Morgan, Llywydd, for what she said. She’s right to point to the fact that the experience of the Cardiff capital region has been very influential in drawing up this White Paper. It’s very regularly pointed to by council leaders of different parties when I’m discussing it with them as an example of how they have been able to come together. But it’s not just Cardiff; the Swansea region and the North Wales Economic Ambition Board are two other examples of where local authorities are demonstrating the advantages that they can obtain through working in the way that the White Paper sets out. We’ve learnt a lot from them and it’s on their advice that we have identified economic development, regional transport and regional land use planning as the three key levers that they need to make a difference to the sorts of issues that Julie Morgan outlined.

Will we see 16 and 17-year-olds as councillors in the future? Well, I don’t see why not, but let’s make sure that they can participate through the actions that we can take here. There is a significant section in the White Paper about diversification of representation, and that is a real ambition, I think, that we ought to grasp here in Wales. There is a new generation of leaders emerging in local authorities, and that’s much to be welcomed, but we have only two women leaders, both of them formidable actors in the local government field, and hopefully role models to others who will want to follow them. There are a series of practical actions that we set out here, and through the different actions of our political parties, each of which has a responsibility to play their part in the diversification agenda, I am confident we can do more on that here in Wales.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and also, as Janet Finch-Saunders said earlier, for the tone that you’ve set in this statement. It’s slightly different to that of your predecessor. You appear—I don’t mean Jane Hutt; I mean your local government predecessor—slightly more to be listening. That is really to be welcomed, and I think that has come out in the tone of this statement today. Can I ask you—? I really do welcome the way that you’ve moved on from the previous plans—from what I saw as being flawed local government reorganisation. I know there were different views on that, but I think we would have lost a lot of what was good about the system without getting the benefits that we thought.

You do in your statement say that you do not rule out—to paraphrase that—the combined model of local government if local authorities can demonstrate that a combined authority approach would help deliver shared objectives. I know that the combined model was something that my local council in Monmouthshire and the south-east area authorities were very keen on, but it was ruled out by your predecessor, as I said before. At what point would you ascertain that those local authorities have demonstrated that that type of model is something that you and the Welsh Government would accept, if they did want to go down that route?

I thank Nick Ramsay. He’s right to say that Monmouthshire council has been one of the ones that have advocated a combined authority model. I think when he has a chance to look closely at the White Paper, he’ll see some other places where discussions with Monmouthshire have had an impact in the White Paper, and some of the ways that we have amended the proposals for how local authorities can organise themselves at a sub-local authority level. Discussions with Gwynedd have been equally important in shaping some of our thinking there.

My conclusion has been this, Nick: that local government Bills don’t come in front of the Assembly very often, and although the joint governance committee is the model that I think most regional arrangements will want to use in the first instance, I felt it was right to see whether we could put the combined authority model on the statute book, so that if the system matures rapidly and local authorities themselves come forward saying that they would rather adopt a combined authority model, we don’t need another piece of primary legislation here in order to give them that ability. So, it is consistent with the theme I’ve developed throughout the afternoon, Llywydd, which is putting choices into the legislation that local authorities themselves can draw down when their circumstances mean that they think that that will be the right thing for them to do. I don’t have a timescale in my mind for when that might happen, but where local authorities want to move in that direction and can show that that would be to the advantage of their local populations, I think it makes sense for us as a National Assembly to make provision so that the Bill will be futureproofed against those intentions.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.