The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We now move on to item 6 on the agenda, which is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on further education. I call on Darren Millar to move the motion. Darren.

Motion NDM6229 Paul Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises the vital contribution that further education and vocational skills make to the Welsh economy, especially in our most disadvantaged communities

2. Calls on the Welsh Government to commit to a three-year funding cycle for further education colleges at a fair level, to enable more sustainable planning and safeguard the skills needed to make local economies resilient.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to invest a significant proportion of the savings it expects to make as a result of changes to higher education student support into the further education sector, including into higher level skills delivered in a further education setting and Welsh language provision.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to formally move the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

I’m very pleased to be leading this debate on the future of the further education sector in Wales, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives. We know that education plays a vital role in our national economy, underpinning and ensuring personal success, health and satisfaction, and contributing to economic and social outcomes for our nation. Our FE and vocational providers have been, and continue to be, in this party’s eyes, a very vital part of the national landscape. They make a huge contribution to changing the lives of individuals and communities in Wales, especially in some of our most disadvantaged communities. It’s the vital bridge that links school and work and/or higher education, supporting people to gain the vocational or academic qualifications and skills that they need to secure and progress into employment or into further learning.

But I think there’s strong evidence to demonstrate that they’ve been undervalued and under-resourced by successive Welsh Governments, and we believe that this negligence must change. But before I embark on the journey that will navigate us around some of the fundamental aspects of this debate, I want to briefly address the amendments that have been tabled.

Now, I have to say, I think it’s a real shame that the Government has decided to respond to our debate today by adopting such a negative approach from the very outset. I think there are aspects of its amendment that we could have agreed to, particularly following the statement on Professor Hazelkorn’s review last week, which of course garnered some cross-part support. But I think its unconstructive ‘delete all’ amendment demonstrated the very blinkered approach that the Labour-led Government has taken over the past 18 years with education policy in Wales. Of course, we’ve seen that education policy cause Wales to lose its way and to lose ground compared to our international competitors, and I think that that’s very disappointing.

What makes it all the more disappointing is that we have a new Cabinet Secretary and a new Minister, and I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. I was hoping for a different sort of style from the new duo, if you like, at the education helm. But, unfortunately, it looks as though you’re going to be standing on the shoulders of your predecessors and continuing to give us more of the same.

In terms of the Plaid Cymru amendments, we can certainly accept amendment 2. But in terms of amendment 3, we cannot accept an amendment that will in any way limit the choice that learners have. As you might expect, we Welsh Conservatives believe that competition is a good thing in our education sector, and that giving learners choices can actually help to drive up standards, so we will certainly not be supporting anything that seeks to limit that.

Deputy Presiding Officer, it’s right that we properly recognise the vital contribution that further education and vocational skills make to Wales. I think there’s long been a propensity for us as politicians, when debating post-16 education, to focus primarily on higher education as a sector, and the funding of HE and its student cohort. But our colleges are also major providers of education here in Wales, and they help to produce some of the best learner outcomes. They are the predominant providers of funded vocational and technical education in Wales, providing around 85 per cent of the total provision. They certainly haven’t shied away from finding positive solutions to some of the critical challenges in recent years.

Wales has gone through a significant transformation of its network of colleges, and we’ve seen the number of FE colleges halve over the past 10 years. We now have larger institutions, with a different size and critical mass, and they’re proving themselves to be genuine anchors for skills provision in Wales’ regional economies. One of the unique selling points of our college network is that they’re so close to the people that they serve, both learners and businesses. They’re embedded in their communities, serving learners from a diverse mix of socioeconomic, cultural and linguistic backgrounds. Yet we shouldn’t be under the misapprehension that they just provide skills and training to SMEs. Colleges are close to employers of all sizes; they interact with 10,000 employers around Wales as a matter of course, and these are companies of all sizes and all shapes, from small businesses and enterprises right through to large companies such as Airbus, General Electric, EE and British Airways.

The FE sector continues to deliver positive outcomes in the face of a challenging financial climate. The Welsh Government has cut revenue grant funding for the FE sector by £24 million between 2011 and 2016-17, a 7 per cent reduction in cash terms and 13 per cent reduction in real terms. While funding for full-time provision has risen very slightly, funding for part-time courses has been slashed by 71 per cent. This reflects the Welsh Government’s decision, of course, to prioritise its statutory work and to focus on provision for 16 to 19-year-olds. But we believe that that’s the wrong emphasis. There’s a real danger that we’re not allowing people a second-chance opportunity in terms of their study, or to upskill themselves by returning to learning, and I think that that will have a devastating impact socially and economically in the future unless we reverse that trend.

The FE sector plays a huge role in bridging the skills and attainment gap for our young people who have left the compulsory system with few or no qualifications, and many colleges now spend a lot of additional time and resource helping learners to resit their GCSEs in English and maths because of the failures in our school system. Yet, in terms of recognition, it seems to me that, at the very best, second-chance learning has become second best in the eyes of this Government, and we don’t find that at all acceptable. In fact, it suggests that there’s some ageism about when it comes to accessing further education.

So, what can we do to help? Well, we certainly need a proper financial framework. We know that giving colleges the opportunity to plan over a three-year funding cycle has been hugely beneficial to them in the past, but, for whatever reason, the Welsh Government decided to row back on those three-year rolling budgets a number of years ago, and now colleges are having to contend with simple 12-month funding cycles. That’s causing them problems in terms of their planning. It’s causing problems for learners, as well, who can’t guarantee that the courses that they have embarked on in year 1 will be able to be completed by year 2 or 3, because of a potential rollback. So, I think that we need to ensure that there are three-year funding cycles.

We know, also, that there’s some extra resource that has been made available, which could be spent in the FE sector, as a result of the UK Government’s apprenticeship levy—£128 million per annum, roughly. That’s a lot of money, which could go a long way to helping colleges expand their provision and really help to transform the Welsh economy.

In terms of the security of provision, I think it is really very, very important to ensure that that continuity of funding is there, and making sure that these three-year funding cycles are available will transform the opportunities for colleges to plan and invest.

Now, the final point of our motion is a call for the Government to invest a significant proportion of the savings that it expects to make as a result of changes to student support for those in the HE sector, and to take some of those and invest them into our further education sector. We’re not asking for all of the money to be invested into our colleges; we’re simply saying that some of those savings could realistically be invested in order to help our colleges do more. We know that changes to provision, cuts in support for adult learners, and the increasing demands from employers for a higher skilled workforce, necessitate a change in approach to the future funding for both higher and further education.

As I said earlier in my contribution, the issue of student tuition fees and funding arrangements for our universities have occupied a lot of attention in recent years. But FE occupies an equally, if not more, important role in terms of providing skills for our local economies. Colleges also provide education and training for high-level skills, and I think the important role that FE institutions play in delivering those level 4 and level 5 skills and foundation degrees was highlighted in the Welsh Government’s review of higher education and further education in a report that was undertaken back in June 2015. This showed that the pattern of higher education activity that takes place in our colleges throughout Wales was diverse, and not only diverse but also growing.

I think also that we need to expand the availability of Welsh-language courses in our FE colleges. Unfortunately, whilst we’ve got good provision in primary and secondary education, when it comes to doing post-16 education in our colleges, there’s very little support in any way, shape or form whatsoever. I think it’s those two things—that investment in higher level skills and investment in expanding the Welsh-medium education and offer in our FE colleges—that we could rightly invest some of those savings that are going to be realised as a result of Diamond into. Let’s not forget: we’re talking about £0.5 billion-worth of savings, potentially, over a five-year period as a result of the savings that have been identified by Diamond, and, indeed, some of the changes to those upper earning limits that the Cabinet Secretary for Education announced. So, a small slither of that invested in our colleges would go a long way to helping them achieve more for our economy and for the people of Wales.

So, I do hope that you’ll be constructive in the debate this afternoon, and that we will see a positive response to some of the suggestions, albeit that you’ve put this ‘delete all’ amendment down, because we believe that this would help Wales to have the sort of education system in our FE sector that we all want to see. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises the significant contribution made by Further and Higher Education institutions to supporting economic opportunity and notes the important leadership role they play in some of the most disadvantaged communities of Wales.

2. Notes the Welsh Government’s commitment to parity of esteem between vocational and academic routes through education.

3. Recognises the importance of high quality, full and part-time opportunities for post-16 learning in both languages which can support learners of all ages and serve the economy of Wales.

4. Welcomes the additional £30m of funding provided for Further and Higher Education in the 2017-18 Welsh Government budget.

5. Notes the work done by the Welsh Government working in partnership with stakeholders across Wales through the Diamond and Hazelkorn Reviews to provide a stable basis for the funding, regulation and governance of post-16 education in Wales.

6. Calls for an end to the UK Government’s damaging policy of austerity which has negatively impacted all public services across the UK, including higher and further education.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Diolch. Galwaf ar Llyr Gruffydd i gynnig gwelliannau 2 a 3, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:

Believes there should be parity of esteem between vocational and academic pathways, and that the Welsh Government should work to promote equity between them.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to work in the spirit of Hazelkorn to eliminate much of the unhelpful competition that has emerged in post-16 education in recent years, and to develop clearer and more flexible post-16 learning pathways.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s a pleasure to move amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Plaid Cymru. May I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate forward this afternoon? I don’t think we discuss FE often enough—in the Chamber, anyway. I don’t think that FE is covered as much as it should be, and I think this is an important opportunity for us. Perhaps we’re all guilty of a lack of equal respect in what we’re trying to achieve for the sector as compared to academic education. This is certainly an opportunity for us to air some aspects of this issue.

I’m disappointed that the Conservatives won’t support our second amendment, amendment 3, because reference was made to a consensus around Hazelkorn. Well, what we say to all intents and purposes emerges from what Hazelkorn said, and there’s a need to move to a better balance of competition and regulation—that’s what the Hazelkorn report says. But we can have that debate on another occasion in the course of the debate around that piece of work.

Nawr, rwy’n dod o genhedlaeth, wrth gwrs—neu roedd fy rhieni’n dod o genhedlaeth—pan oedd addysg yn ymwneud â chael eich lefelau O. Oeddwn, roeddwn yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf a safodd arholiadau lefel O. Rydych yn cael eich lefelau O, rydych yn cael eich Safon Uwch, rydych yn mynd i brifysgol ac rydych yn cael eich gradd. I fod yn gwbl onest, nid wyf wedi gwneud llawer o ddefnydd ymarferol o’r radd a gefais heblaw ei glynu ar cv i ddweud fy mod wedi cael gradd. Ond nawr fy mod yn dad—. O, peidiwch â dweud hynny wrth fy narlithwyr. Rwy’n gweld ychydig o ddarlithwyr yn edrych arnaf—. Dyna ni. Ond gan fy mod bellach yn dad, wrth gwrs, ac mae’r hynaf yn mynd drwy’r ysgol uwchradd, rydych yn dechrau meddwl am y dewisiadau sydd allan yno ac yn sydyn, wrth gwrs, fe fyddwch yn sylweddoli, o fod yn dod o gefndir o’r math hwnnw fy hun, lle roeddech ond yn gweld un cyfeiriad, fod yna ehangder—llu—o gyfleoedd allan yno, rhywbeth nad yw’n cael ei werthfawrogi’n gyffredinol rwy’n siŵr, yn sicr gan bobl ifanc, buaswn yn dychmygu, i’r graddau y buasem i gyd yn dymuno. Yn aml iawn, mae’n cymryd rhywbeth go syfrdanol i wneud i chi sylweddoli mewn gwirionedd nid yn unig yr opsiynau sydd yno, ond gwir werth llawer o’r opsiynau hynny, o’i gymharu efallai â’r canfyddiad a oedd gan rai ohonom yn y gorffennol ynglŷn â chael gradd—os ydych am gamu ymlaen, fe gewch radd.

Un o’r eiliadau hynny y llynedd oedd y gwaith a wnaeth Ymddiriedolaeth Sutton—ymchwil i botensial ennill cyflog graddedigion prifysgol o gymharu â phrentisiaid—a ganfu y gall prentisiaid uwch ddisgwyl ennill miloedd yn fwy yn ystod eu hoes na llawer o israddedigion, yn enwedig o brifysgolion nad ydynt yn perthyn i Grŵp Russell. Canfu’r adroddiad y bydd y rhai sy’n dewis astudio ar gyfer prentisiaeth uwch lefel 5 yn ennill £1.5 miliwn yn ystod eu gyrfa, yn fwy na graddedigion o rai o’r prifysgolion hynny, a allai ddisgwyl ennill £1.4 miliwn. Felly, mae prentisiaethau uwch ar lefel 5 yn arwain at fwy o enillion dros oes na graddau israddedig ac wrth gwrs, heb lawer o’r ddyled sydd, yn anffodus, yn aml iawn yn dod gyda gradd addysg uwch. Mae potensial ennill cyflog prentisiaeth uwch ar lefel 3 yn dal i fod ychydig yn well na rhywun sydd â Safon Uwch yn gymhwyster uchaf. Rydym wedi clywed llawer am fanteision cyffredinol addysg bellach, ac rydym yn gwybod eu bod yn helaeth, wrth gwrs. Ond mae’r canfyddiad yn dal yno—yn rhy gryf, rwy’n credu—ynglŷn â gwerth addysg bellach o gymharu ag addysg uwch. Cafodd hynny ei danlinellu eto mewn arolwg YouGov y llynedd: roedd 68 y cant o’r farn mai addysg uwch oedd yr opsiwn gorau, a 7 y cant yn unig o bobl 18 i 24 oed a ystyriai mai prentisiaethau oedd yn iawn ar eu cyfer hwy, a dywedodd 51 y cant o oedolion y buasent yn hoffi i’w plentyn gael addysg uwch, o’i gymharu ag 20 y cant a ffafriai brentisiaeth. Nawr, rwy’n gwybod fy mod yn siarad llawer am brentisiaethau, ac mai rhan fechan o addysg bellach yw hynny—rwy’n derbyn hynny’n llwyr—ond rwy’n credu eich bod yn cael y pwynt rwy’n ceisio ei wneud.

Felly, yn amlwg, mae angen hyrwyddo gwell—yn niffyg gair gwell—ar fanteision addysg bellach a llwybr galwedigaethol. Mae angen hyrwyddo parch cydradd, yn sicr mewn perthynas â’r cynnig hwn o’n blaenau heddiw. Mewn gwirionedd rwy’n gobeithio y gallai hynny fod yn etifeddiaeth bwysig i’r Cynulliad hwn, ac efallai i’r Gweinidog, ein bod yn symud yn fwy pendant i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw. Nawr—rwyf wedi dychryn, mewn gwirionedd, mai 30 eiliad yn unig sydd gennyf ar ôl. [Torri ar draws.] Ie. Felly, Hazelkorn: fel y cydnabuwyd yn y datganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, mae amryw o sectorau a darparwyr yn cael eu rheoleiddio a’u hariannu mewn ffyrdd gwahanol gan wahanol gyrff, ac mae mathau newydd o ddarparwyr wedi dod i’r amlwg yn ogystal, wrth gwrs. Mae’n arwain at gystadleuaeth ddi-fudd, ddywedwn i, rhwng darparwyr addysg, ac mae angen strategaeth gliriach a chydlynu gwell arnom. Dyna yw byrdwn ein hail welliant wrth gwrs. Cefais fy nghalonogi gan y datganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, ond mae angen hyrwyddo’r agenda hon a chreu momentwm y tu ôl i hyn, a bydd y ddadl hon, gobeithio, yn ein helpu i gyflawni hynny.

Thank you very much. Paul Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I’m very pleased I’ve had the opportunity to take part in this debate this afternoon. Members are right to emphasise the importance of the further education sector in Wales and to draw attention to examples of some of the excellent work that our FE providers are doing. In my constituency, Pembrokeshire College offers a strong and varied programme of courses, from A-levels to apprenticeships to degrees to business skills programmes. It’s also important to note that FE providers like Pembrokeshire College open their doors to students of all ages, not only young people between 16 and 21 years of age.

Indeed, for employees facing the loss of their jobs, the FE sector can be a major resource. It offers an opportunity for workers to learn new skills and to adapt to changes in their local economy. Of course, by offering part-time courses as well as full-time courses, adults who are in work or stay-at-home parents, as well as older people, can access a variety of important educational opportunities, and this has a positive effect on our society and on our economy.

However, as Darren Millar said, the future of that positive effect is in jeopardy as the sector faces a funding cut of 71 per cent for part-time courses. Despite this, I do accept that funding for full-time provision has increased 3 per cent in real terms, and this is certainly to be welcomed. But my concern is that by decreasing funding for part-time courses so dramatically, the message that is sent is that second-chance opportunities to study or upskill are not a priority, and aren’t even on the Welsh Government’s agenda. Even though I accept that schemes like ReAct have gone some way towards assisting people in developing new skills, cuts to funding for part-time provision are sure to lead to fewer opportunities for those who want to seek new career opportunities following the loss of their job, for example. Therefore, perhaps in responding to this debate, the Minister can say a little bit more about what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that further education institutions can continue to offer part-time courses, and how it is promoting second-chance opportunities via the FE sector.

Of course, I realise that budgets are tight and challenging, and that the Welsh Government can’t fund everything, but it’s not just about how much money is available; it’s also about the way in which funding is prioritised by the Welsh Government to ensure the best possible outcomes for learners of all ages. Therefore, I encourage the Minister to look again at funding for part-time courses, to see whether there is any flexibility to give a much-needed boost to FE institutions.

Now, the second point in our motion today calls on the Welsh Government to commit to a three-year funding cycle for FE colleges on a fair basis to enable plans to be made that are more sustainable. Members will know that the Welsh Government at one time did provide a three-year funding cycle for colleges, and that made the task of making plans much easier, and it also led to greater certainty for learners in terms of knowing that their courses would continue in the medium-term. But I can’t see how introducing one-year funding allocations has led to better support for FE institutions, and I don’t see how this has led to better planning in the medium-term.

I think that this, too, has a negative effect in terms of attracting students. Indeed, we know that FE institutions have seen a decline in the number of learners in 2015-16, and I think that one of the reasons for this is the decrease in funding that the sector has received and the instability caused by one-year funding allocations.

We know that the Wales Audit Office is currently reviewing FE funding, and I’m sure that that report, when published, will make interesting reading. I hope that the review will give serious consideration to how the sector is funded and to how the shift to a one-year funding model has affected the sector’s ability to offer courses.

Now, Professor Hazelkorn is right when she says in her report that there is a feeling that the FE sector isn’t fully appreciated and cannot therefore operate to its full potential. The Welsh Government must respond to this concern and ensure that our FE institutions are better supported.

I appreciate that, in the wake of Professor Hazelkorn’s report, the Cabinet Secretary has confirmed that a single authority needs to be created with parity of esteem across the post-compulsory education sector, and I very much hope that when this authority is created, the FE sector will receive the focus and attention it deserves.

So, in concluding, Deputy Presiding Officer, whilst FE providers in Wales are doing excellent work in providing education and training for thousands of people every year, the sector needs much more support. So, I encourage the Minister to consider the future direction of the FE sector carefully and ensure that the sector receives the vital investment that it needs. Thank you.

I think it’s good that we’re debating and discussing further education in the Assembly today and reflecting on its contribution to education and skills in Wales, because I do believe it is a very impressive contribution, which should be recognised, and we should discuss how we can strengthen it and take it forward.

One aspect of further education, of course, is the opportunity to have a second chance at education, and that’s what my local college, Coleg Gwent as it now is, provided for me and many others. So, I was able to do GCSEs there, A-levels there, and then go on to university and obtain a law degree and then a career as a solicitor on the back of that second-chance education during evening classes, whilst unemployed at the time, and then moving into work. So, I very much value that aspect of further education and the opportunities it brings, and I believe we should bear that in mind in the round when we look at the role of further education and how we develop further education and support it.

Coleg Gwent now, Dirprwy Lywydd, is providing a quality education and many quality skills for the population in Gwent. Last year, we had very strong A-level results in Gwent through the efforts of Coleg Gwent, and indeed positive value added as demonstrated by the advanced level information system analysis conducted by Durham University, or under the formula developed by Durham University. Indeed, the Welsh Government learner outcome reports for 2015-16 show Coleg Gwent’s main qualifications success rate of 85 per cent—amongst the best in Wales. Also, very recently—hot off the press, as it were—one of Coleg Gwent’s learners, Tom Seward, has just won the Welsh round of the Sparks UK electrical apprentice of the year. So, I think there’s quite a lot of evidence that Coleg Gwent is providing top-quality education and skills, and those are just a few examples of that.

In taking forward the offer that Coleg Gwent is able to make in my part of the world, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m very encouraged that they’re not resting on their laurels at all. They’re very ambitious for the future to build on the success and the opportunities that they have provided and will provide. Chief amongst that—. A main example of that ambition, Dirprwy Lywydd, is their proposals for the relocation of the Nash campus in Newport to the riverfront, which would go alongside the University of South Wales campus and establish what would be called the Newport knowledge quarter. It would be a partnership between FE and HE, very much geared to the needs of the local economy and working in tandem with businesses. It would integrate FE and HE and put the further and higher education combined offer in the faces of the local population with a very prominent city centre riverfront location. So, I think that’s very exciting indeed. I know that plans are being worked up at the moment and obviously the Minister and his officials are part of that work. I am very supportive of it, as I know other local politicians, the local authority and many others are. I hope that it will come to fruition.

What we need, I believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, are transformative projects of this type, showing what further education and higher education working together can deliver and how they can really understand the skills needs of their local population—what the employers require to take the local economy forward—and deliver those in a way that is state of the art in terms of further and higher education in the UK.

So, I hope that the Minister is able to offer some words of encouragement in his response today. We have met and discussed the proposals. Obviously, there’s an amount of work yet to be done to flesh out the strategic outline business case and the other parts of the process that are necessary, but I do believe that it’s one example that we could look to with real pride in Wales in terms of how we’re at the forefront of knitting further education and higher education together with a clear and very strong partnership of all the major partners locally, and we would then transform the offer to the benefit not just of Newport but the immediate region as well.

The Welsh Conservatives recognise how vital further education institutions are for providing students with opportunities to garner the skills required to enter into industry through apprenticeship programmes and eventually achieve full-time employment.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I’ll tell my colleagues here a little story, and a true fact. A gentleman came to this country at the age of 22 or 23. He landed without any prior qualifications, only one degree in politics and $22 in his pocket. He landed in this country and he came to the city. He got an articleship with a chartered accountant. He worked there for a few years but, in the meantime, he also, straight away, got a free college education to learn accountancy.

The gentleman, when he passed his exams, very quickly, was offered a job in the same higher education college in the city. He refused. He stayed with this chartered accountant and he worked with him for 14 years. While he finished working, he was learning. He also learned to drive for the first time. He couldn’t speak proper English even. He learned to drive and he got a taxi licence. He never drove a taxi in his life, but he has a taxi license—that’s a skill.

Once he set up his own practice, after 14 years, finishing his chartered accountant job, he learned to fly. Within a few years—that was a time when, in this country, vocational qualifications were virtually available to the people and that opportunity was available—the gentleman became a fully qualified pilot. Then he started his own practice. My point to you all, ladies and gentleman, my colleagues, is: that gentleman is me.

I actually can tell everyone that it is a crime if we don’t give opportunities to our children to have full access to anything—whatever they want to do in their life. The skills should be there always, for development, for learning and upskilling—all their life. From cradle to grave, we are all here to learn.

Anyway, colleges in Wales work closely with employers of all sizes, from medium-sized enterprises through to large employers such as Airbus and General Electric, who my colleague has just mentioned. I am concerned, therefore, to see that the Welsh Government has cut revenue grant funding for the further education sector by nearly £24 million in the last five years. That is not going to have a good impact on the learners. Also, their decision to focus on 16 to 19-year-olds presents a real danger for second-chance opportunities to study—a return to learning will no longer exist. As I mentioned earlier, it is actually a crime. We should not bar our children from learning in life. We should be giving opportunities—this institution. A British qualification and skill is not only recognised, but is highly respected globally. Since Brexit, I think it is more appropriate and more important for us to make sure that the entire world will come and learn our skills and see our education system, because it is one of the best in the world.

I’m also saying what the second one is. The lack of information and clarity on the Welsh Government’s part means that the further education institutions cannot plan and prioritise as effectively as they would like to do. It also puts staff positions in doubt and has negative effects on further education institutions and on communications with employers, and jeopardises the ability of further education institutions to provide a quality education to its students. Additionally, the Welsh Government’s lack of urgency with informing further education institutions about whether they will receive their share of the sector priorities fund means that the further education sector could face additional cuts to its budget. I think it’s not fair. This would particularly affect part-time provision, which is so important for those in employment who want to develop their skills to thrive in a dynamic economy. I believe we need to put in place a forward funding programme that would inform further education institutions of their budget, which would allow for greater transparency and put an end to the last-minute approach that the Welsh Government currently undertakes.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I welcome this debate, which recognises further education’s contribution to meeting the needs of learners and employers alike. I support the motion and hope all of us will do the same in this process. Thank you.

Just before Christmas, I convened a meeting in my constituency in Neath of players in the local economy. I had the further education college there. In fact, they hosted the event and it was hosted very beautifully and very effectively buy them, so I thank them for that. We also had universities, businesses in the local economy and unions to come together to discuss what we wanted from a regional perspective from the Welsh Government’s economic strategy. But one of the issues that came out in the discussion was a call for a clear, integrated strategy for further education, skills training, workplace learning, adult learning and HE—a holistic approach to all those modes of education—and as part of that, the development of a clear pathway between vocational and academic education and in the workplace through from pre-apprenticeship to high-level skills and degrees. Confidence and hope was expressed that the Hazelkorn proposals at that point would provide a foundation for a much more integrated approach than has been able to be in place to date.

Echoing the point that a number of speakers have made, there were calls to encourage students not just to think in terms of a higher education route. I think that’s about actually giving equal validity to both vocational and academic higher education. But it goes beyond, I think, the question of parity of esteem: it should at least be that. But there’s also a scenario where someone feels they may flourish in higher education, but actually the better option for their particular career choice isn’t higher education, despite the fact that they might very well do excellently at university. Until we get to that sense of genuineness of approach—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

I’m very grateful to the Member for taking the intervention. Do you agree with me that what we actually also need is some very decent careers advice given to our young people? I think the careers service in Wales is in need of an overhaul to make sure that there’s accurate careers advice being given, not just by individuals who work in schools or individuals who work in FE colleges, but independently, to actually give that tailored support to young people across Wales.

Well, I think it’s vital that in schools and colleges students and pupils have a very clear understanding of what the options are for them, what the progression opportunities within those career choices are and what course options and so on they should take to get them there. And I think there’s a place for much more integration between the world of work, the local economy and schools and colleges, so anything that takes us down that route, I would welcome.

The Hazelkorn proposals that have now been accepted I think are a good institutional foundation for what we’re talking about today. There have, of course, been funding challenges—speakers have spoken about the cuts to FE, and there have also been cuts to the adult learning budget—and I think that presents a challenge in some of the things that John Griffiths referred to in terms of second-chance learning and so on. But I do want to pay tribute to the FE sector for great innovation in the face of some of those pressures. There are a number of examples, including in my own constituency, of FE colleges really looking very creatively at how they can deliver what they can deliver in a much more entrepreneurial way, and I think that plays into the spirit of those institutions. One of the, I think, if not hidden, then undervalued exports from Wales actually is the work that FE colleges are doing to provide education services overseas, which happens in lots of our institutions. So, I think that also should be recognised.

There are some boundary issues between FE and HE that I think need to be looked at closely, where you have degrees being offered by FE colleges under partnership agreements. There are issues around transparency of what can be delivered to learners that I think need to be looked at. We have now a system of tuition support that is based on the living wage, but, of course, an apprentice’s minimum wage is discounted minimum wage, so I think there is a potential there for some perverse incentives, which I think we need to look at.

We’re always invited to look at European models when we’re looking at FE, HE and vocational options. And I think it will benefit us to look at some of the things that are happening in the Netherlands. In the time left to me, I won’t be able to elaborate too much on that, but I’ll just pick out two or three lessons I think that we could learn. One is that the institutional landscape, for example, in the Netherlands is very, very straightforward. It’s very clear how the institutions work and how they interrelate, and I think there’s a benefit in that. There’s a high degree of flexibility and coherency, in particular around some of the apprenticeships, which, again, I know is not the only offer from FE, but it’s an important offer. And there’s a high level of flexibility between the academic and the workplace aspects of that. Most importantly, to take us back to where we started, the vocational route is promoted from a very early stage in the school and college journey. Most students that go through the system actually end up taking a vocational route in the Netherlands, and I think that’s testimony to the real level of integration and the lack of boundaries between vocational college-based and higher education. We’re living in a time of a changing economy where, actually, a linear conventional learning path probably is becoming outmoded. I think we need the imagination to look beyond that, and look at a flexible, modular part-time system as becoming the norm for all of us.

I’m really pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon, because I’ve had a great interest in FE education throughout my time as a Member of the Assembly, and I’ve raised these issues in the past because it is sometimes the forgotten part of the education sector, but it’s hugely important to the Welsh economy. As we’ve heard, it allows students to acquire vocational skills, fill skill gaps, update their skills and even prepare for a career change, and Members have touched on all those aspects, I think, of what FE provides. In a modern economy, we need a flexible, confident, skilled workforce, and this isn’t just because of what might happen because of Brexit; it’s the modern world. I was talking recently to a group of students and saying, ‘Not only will you change jobs half a dozen times—a dozen times perhaps—you’ll probably change careers two or three times.’ That’s the astonishing thing of what happens, and that’s greatly liberating but also, if you’re not prepared, very, very challenging. It is, perhaps, the learners who don’t feel so prepared whom I want to spend a little time talking about. FEs have played a great role over the years in helping to fill the skill gaps that occur, and we know there’s a really troubling attainment gap at GCSE level in English and maths, in particular, and it ends up being bridged, if it is bridged, in the FE sector. I think we should remember the skill that they perform in that task in dealing with students who’ve often had less than pleasant experiences in formal education, and then find it much more conducive in the atmosphere of an FE college. I think that is something that we really, really need to value.

When I give advice to young constituents who have various issues, I ask, ‘Are you in employment? Are you in training? What are you looking for?’, and I’m always impressed by those who say they’ve gone back and they’re at FE colleges pursuing some qualifications there and are seeking to improve their chances in the labour market and to improve their employment opportunities.

FEs also help older people to improve their numeracy and literacy skills. And again, I think we’ve all helped people, perhaps through our surgery work, with the direct issue, but also you realise that part of their problem relates to fairly basic literacy and numeracy. Again, the FE sector, through their continuing education for adults and evening classes, as we’ve heard, provide really essential services here that can be greatly liberating. When people, slightly later in life, achieve that level of education that allows them to flourish, I think it’s a deeply moving moment. Sometimes, that includes people who are in the workplace. They may not be in highly skilled jobs, but they are in the workplace, and I’m particularly attracted to those programmes that have been developed with FE colleges and trade unions, in fairness, as well, which help employees in the workplace to improve some of the basic skills.

Can I just turn to another aspect of the debate? I am concerned about the future funding streams for the sector. We’ve heard about the budgetary arrangements and the need to move to three-year budgets, so I won’t repeat that point. But, you know, since 2007, about £600 million has come into FE colleges through the European funding routes, and I am concerned about what will happen after 2020, because Brexit must not mean that skills training in deprived areas is in any way downgraded. I hope the Minister may have something to say there; I think it’s very, very important that we maintain the priority here.

Let me finish, then, on the importance of FE. I mean, this was the part of the—. It goes back to 1944, really. The vision was grammar schools, technical schools and then secondary modern. Secondary modern was never really a very robust approach. Technical schools used to work quite well where they were really tried, and in Wales, we had a fairly good record, but it still didn’t get that parity of esteem with the academic grammar route, as they called it then. We’ve heard some really interesting examples about the Netherlands, and I would say Germany as well. I remember attending a conference in Germany and putting the television on, and there was an advert about a town at work, and it was just showing how vital vocational skills were to the everyday running of that town. So, you know, that’s what we really need to emphasise.

Llyr said he’s never used his degree professionally. He didn’t tell us what his degree is, but I have two degrees in politics, so I’ll leave it up to you whether you think I’ve used them very well. [Laughter.] But I thought Oscar, when he said that he arrived here without any prior qualifications apart from a degree in politics—well, that probably tells you what he thinks about a degree in politics. [Laughter.] And he didn’t tell us whether he acquired his flying lessons via an FE college, which I suspect he didn’t, but anyway, this is a sector to celebrate and we need to nurture it.

I say in response to David Melding that my colleagues make fun of me whenever I mention my degrees and using my degrees, so I’ve learnt to keep quiet about it—[Interruption.] Yes, the gowns were pretty exotic. [Laughter.]

I started my career in what was the Allt-yr-yn, or colloquially known as the ‘Altereen’ campus in Newport. My experience in HE was only ever, and I think I’ve said to this Chamber before, on validation panels in FE, meeting FE colleagues and as a moderator. And that’s about it. There was never any crossover teaching or working with colleagues—certainly nothing like the knowledge centre that you’ve suggested now, and, clearly, Allt-yr-yn campus is now a housing estate. It’s now the waterfront and you’ve got the Nash campus base moving from Nash to the waterfront. I think that’s a good example of how things should happen. The University of South Wales, as Professor Diamond recognised, is a very good example, if not of best practice—a very good example of how we should progress HE and FE links.

I visited, in preparation for this debate and debates like it, Coleg y Cymoedd Ystrad Mynach in my constituency, and if you want to see it, there’s a little video on Twitter all about the visit. What an array of activities that are taking place there. There are no classrooms in the video: there’s a mechanics workshop, there’s an aircraft cabin, and there’s a working kitchen and restaurant. They are some of the things going on at Coleg y Cymoedd. That’s the kind of experience that HE lecturers, I think, need to have as well and see some of those things that are going on.

The Hazelkorn review, to which the Cabinet Secretary made a response last week, took a very welcome look at these issues. And as she said in her statement, the complexities involved in these matters, FE and HE, has led to unhelpful competition between education and training providers, with duplication or gaps and confusion for learners. And the Minister for lifelong learning, as I mentioned earlier at question time, said, when he visited the Children, Young People and Education Committee on 10 November, that he would like to see no border at all between FE and HE. I’d like to hear more about that in discussions, because I think it helps answer some of the questions in this debate and that are referred to in the amendment in the name of Jane Hutt.

I welcome the fact that there’d be a body that would ultimately replace the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which will play an important part in resolving some of the border problems between FE and HE, although in my question to the Cabinet Secretary earlier, she said she’s got plans for this, but I asked about the short term: what’s going to happen in the immediate future? She said, when she visited the Children, Young People and Education on 10 November, that there would be an expectation that the money that has been going to Higher Education Funding Council for Wales—that part of that is used to enhance the relationship between FE and HE, and she’d make that clear in her remit letter. When I asked her today, she said that she’d already made it clear in the interim remit letter, but that was issued in October. She made the statement to the committee in November, so I’d still like some clarity on that. And if the Minister could pursue some clarity on that, I’d be very grateful, because that would help us get some clarity as to what will happen while further consultation is going on regarding the funding body.

But perhaps we need to go further and establish a post-16 education and training strategy for Wales, looking at FE and HE, work-based learning and adult community education. This is something that I hope will be at the forefront of the Welsh Government’s thinking when it comes to the work of implementing the recommendations of Diamond and Hazelkorn. This is something that can happen.

The Conservatives have brought forward this motion today. I’ve been critical of Darren Millar in the past, particularly—not his fault, but the UK Government’s fault—their decimation, the UK Government’s decimation, of the international student market in higher education. The picture in England is not much better in FE either, with the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons identifying a looming crisis in FE funding that was coming in England. So, I think work needs to be done at all levels in FE and HE, and I think the Welsh Government, commendably, are taking an approach that is addressing that issue. Hazelkorn provides us a golden opportunity for us to learn from those mistakes that are being made in England, and forge our own Welsh approach to a successful post-compulsory education regime that meets the needs of employers, providers and learners in the years ahead.

Thanks very much. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I think it’s been an excellent debate with much common ground, despite the somewhat churlish remarks of the Conservative spokesperson in opening the debate. I trust he’ll take the opportunity in his winding up to perhaps reflect further on the tone with which he opened the debate. Certainly, the debate has risen far beyond the expectations that were raised by us through listening to his speech this afternoon. But I’m pleased that there’s been a great deal of consensus across the Chamber. There’s been a consensus on the place of further education, both in education and in wider society; on parity of esteem, which was first raised by Llyr Gruffydd in his remarks, but emphasised by Members on all sides of the Chamber; and also a recognition that there are significant challenges facing the sector, and this sector is already living up to and meeting those challenges.

Let me say this: coming into office as a Minister for this sector, one thing that has struck me more than anything else is the sheer diversity, not simply of provision, but of delivery, of organisation, and the way that this sector is very agile—fleet of foot—in meeting needs, in looking at needs, in understanding what employers need; understanding how we deliver education in different ways, in different parts of the country; not imposing uniformity, but ensuring that we do have consistency of excellence across all parts of Wales. And I think that is something that we really should celebrate.

Let me say this, in terms of moving the debate forward: I was very taken by the remarks that Jeremy Miles made about his experience in the Netherlands, which reflected very much David Melding’s remarks on Germany, as well. I was actually in Germany two weeks ago looking at different forms of provision, and I think there are some very real debates that we need to have about this. I fully accept the points that were made by Hefin David in his conclusion that we do need to look at removing some of the borders and the barriers that exist at present between further and higher education provision. But we need also, not simply to do that; we need to look at removing some of those barriers that exist between further education and school provision as well. So I think we do need to be a bit more radical in our thinking there, and we do need to be a bit more radical in looking at how we deliver the excellence of education that is tailored to the needs of the individual student, pupil or learner—however you wish to describe individuals. We need to look at how we then deliver it.

I am instinctively not in favour of a uniform approach, but I—

Andrew R.T. Davies rose—

If I could just finish the sentence. But I do wish to ensure that we are able to deliver a richness of opportunity of choice, together with excellence in standards, and to do that in both our national languages. I’ll give way.

I’m grateful to the Minister for taking the intervention. I couldn’t agree more with you about breaking down the barriers, Minister, but it’s maybe for us on this side to pose that question and for you as the Minister to hopefully give us some of the solutions. Because since I’ve been here—since 2007—we’ve been pointing out about these barriers, both from the Government’s side and from the opposition side, but can we have a feel for how you’re going to root this through the education systems so that those barriers are broken down and the links are established?

I think the Cabinet Secretary started that last week in her statement on Hazelkorn, which signalled a very real, and different, and radical approach to moving forward. But let me respond more profoundly to the debate that we’ve had. We’ve heard from both Oscar and John that further education provides opportunities for people and that second chance for an education, and we understand that, and we appreciate that. We need to find ways to ensure that FEs certainly will continue in the future to pursue that and deliver on those expectations and that role. I want to ensure that we also have the ability to support vulnerable learners, that we’re working with employers, meeting local needs, and that we are providing this diversity in provision that means that we will continue in the future to be able to deliver those second chances, but also, that we will look in a more radical way at the way the labour market is changing, and that we will respond in a more radical way to ensure that skills match the needs of the economy and of individual learners for the future.

The new Government programme, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, recognises the value of further education and its role in ensuring that everybody has the opportunity to reach their potential. Many Members on all sides of the Chamber have spoken about the need to ensure that Welsh-medium or bilingual provision is developed and delivered. Let me say this: I’m absolutely committed to ensuring that that happens. The Cabinet Secretary has established, of course, a task and finish group that is looking at some of the lessons from the work done by the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in higher education, and we are absolutely committed to ensuring that we are able to improve and deliver courses in further education through the medium of Welsh, in a way that we don’t do at the moment, and then to expand that in terms of work-based learning and apprenticeships as well. We need to be able to look—. We had a conversation earlier during questions about how we improve the availability of Welsh language education, and this Government is absolutely committed to doing that.

But we also need greater coherence between the academic education and vocational learning. Now, more than ever, we do need to be engaged with the wider debate that is taking place on vocational education, particularly in Europe, and we need to ensure that we are able to continue to deliver at the very height of excellence. The second year of Leading Wales, our FE leadership programme, is having a positive response. I want to maintain and build momentum. A third round of the programme will start in May and a similar programme will be delivered for the HE sector, building on the success of the FE programme. We need to be able to strengthen the sector’s capacity to respond to change, and I am considering at the moment options for a resilience programme, supporting the sector in developing even stronger leadership, financial sustainability and employer engagement. We need to ensure that we are able to maintain the vitality of the sector into the future.

Members, at different parts of this debate, have talked about funding decisions and the impact of funding decisions on further education. I’m very pleased that we’ve been able to identify shared priorities with Plaid Cymru, resulting in an additional £30 million for further education and higher education in the next financial year. However—however—it ill serves debate in this place for Conservative Members to constantly complain about the impact of Conservative policies. We understand exactly why further education is under the pressure it is today, because we have a UK Government that is consistently, consistently, consistently reducing the funding available to us, and we understand that the UK Conservative Government wishes to continue with that policy.

I understand, and I actually agree with, the point that Darren made in his introduction about a three-year funding cycle for further education. We actually do recognise that, and we recognise the desirability of planning. However, we do not have the same certainty ourselves from the United Kingdom Government. A late autumn statement, £3.5 billion-worth of cuts in waiting to come in 2019-20, and the ongoing uncertainty about the financial impact of the UK leaving the European Union, and then you tell us you want certainty. Let me tell you now: if you want certainty, that isn’t a message you need to give to this Government; it’s a message you need to give to your Government in London.

We all know that the impact of the loss of structural funds will hit further education hard, and I know nobody—nobody at all—who believes the assurances that have so far been given by the United Kingdom Government that they will make good on their promises. I’ll give way.

I would just remind you that the Minister is out of time, but I will allow this intervention very quickly.

Very briefly, I appreciate the frustrations about the lateness of the autumn statement, but, on the other hand, you do have to recognise, Cabinet Secretary, that that autumn statement did deliver an extra £400 million for the Welsh economy over the next five years—not to be sniffed at.

And we also understand there are £3.5 billion-worth of cuts still to come in the pipeline. Now, you should do the maths, the same as I can.

Let me conclude. I won’t test the patience of the Deputy Presiding Officer any further. Further education has seen a transformation; it has been proactive in pursuing a radical change agenda. This Government wishes to pursue that agenda, which is to continue thinking in radical ways about how we can ensure that we have parity of esteem and we have the delivery of high-quality education consistently across the whole of this country. We will continue to work with the further education sector to deliver that, and I trust that Members on all sides of the Chamber will support the Government in doing so. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. I call on Suzy Davies to reply to the debate. Suzy.

Thank you very much. Well, sorry to disappoint you, Minister, it’s me who’s going to be winding you up—sorry, winding the debate up. Parity of esteem—that’s what we’ve been talking about today, until it sort of all lost its way in the last few minutes there. I think it’s an important point to make that this was quite a consensual debate, and for a very good reason as well: parity of esteem is good for the economy, it’s good for the colleges and the universities, and, most importantly, it is good for our citizens. The sum of the parts—let’s add those up to be even greater. Let’s make sure that parity of esteem does mean that we end up with a whole that’s better than the sum of our parts.

Actually, our education system has kind of reflected that in recent years; at least in the pre-16 sector. I thought Jeremy Miles’s contribution on the Netherlands was very illustrative of this: post 16, we are still operating pretty much in silos here in Wales and perhaps it would be fair to say, in the UK generally. Of course, the Welsh Conservatives made a manifesto commitment to university technical colleges, which actually captured some of the points that you were making there, Jeremy, but unfortunately we didn’t get the chance to let Wales see the benefits on that.

We, of course, had this rush to university education absolutely right, in the sense that no-one should be prevented from following their best path for reasons of geography or finance, but it did end up tipping the scales in favour of young people feeling obliged to go to university regardless of aptitude, and on the back of parental opportunities, as Llyr mentioned—I experienced it as well—and perhaps teaching to exams, to a certain degree, as well. I think both Oscar and David were absolutely right on this. Opportunity is what a young person needs—an opportunity that is appropriate to them. That’s why, Llyr, I have no problem with you talking about apprenticeships over and over. I think they’ve been a massively important reintroduction into the offer to our young people. We’ve devalued further education and other vocational experiences as something that persists even now, despite further education institutions being able to offer a huge range of types of education for young people. I mean, in many places, they have a university on the doorstep now, where higher education provision has been brought into them, as well as A-levels, which we’re familiar with, and of course engagement and level 1 education, which are part of stopping some of our young people being left behind altogether.

The main message, I think, that’s come through today, apart from the ambitions of further education and its skilfulness at re-describing itself, if you like, through a partnership, is this—and it’s been raised by many Members, including John Griffiths—and that is the second chance. I think it would be fair enough to say that it’s the first chance, actually, in the case of some of those whose school experience didn’t work for them. David Melding pointed out that people change their careers, they change their jobs throughout their lives, and sometimes that’s not done willingly. I’m thinking of Tata in my region, for example. The Welsh Government has committed quite a significant amount of money to re-training people who lose their jobs at Tata. These are people who perhaps haven’t done any new training in years. We need our further education colleges to do that—part-time as well. You ask anyone with caring responsibilities about the importance of part-time provision when it comes to improving your life chances.

In the case of a friend of mine, she left school at 16, she worked in a shop, had a child and was left by her partner. Needing legal advice, she became interested in the law—a pretty common experience, actually. She took a part-time foundation course at her local college. She got great marks, got a place to study law at university—also part-time—did her legal practice course, her training contract and joined a firm. She now writes the College of Law’s recommended reading on medical negligence, and she earns a fortune. It only happened because her college was funded well enough to run a part-time course. I don’t think that course even runs anymore.

Are you being generous to me, Deputy Presiding Officer?

Carry on.

Okay. Thank you.

You’re still in the black.

Good. [Laughter.] Minister, your point about removing barriers between school and college actually is very well made, and I would agree with you on that. You have been saying, actually, pretty much until the end there, all the right things, but we do need to see them happen now. Really, I’m just begging you: stop moaning and plan. Plan to spend that £400 million. Parity of esteem is not just about FE and HE, vocational or academic; it’s about parity of citizenry.

I don’t think anyone should abandon their potential on the doorstep of their start in life, and the diversity of offer and the convenience of FE institutions for many will be what they need to cross the threshold at any age, at any time. So, I think that what we’ve actually been speaking about is parity of value to our people, and, yes, that does need a radical approach.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. Thank you very much. Therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.