The next item on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on Stage 4 of the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to move the motion—Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6351 Mark Drakeford

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:

Approves the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s my pleasure to present the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill before the National Assembly for Wales for its approval.

Hoffwn ddiolch yn fyr iawn i bawb sydd wedi bod yn rhan o hynt y Bil, grŵp ymroddgar ac arbenigol o swyddogion sydd wedi rhoi cyngor rhagorol yn ystod datblygiad a hynt y Bil. Fel y bydd yr Aelodau yma yn gwybod, mae nifer fach o drethdalwyr yn y maes hwn yng Nghymru, mewn maes technegol, arbenigol, ac rwyf wedi bod yn ddiolchgar iawn iddyn nhw, yr ymarferwyr, am eu parodrwydd i gyfrannu eu harbenigedd yn ystod datblygiad y Bil.

Rwy'n arbennig o ddiolchgar i bwyllgorau'r Cynulliad sydd wedi bod yn gyfrifol am graffu'r Bil, y Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol, y Pwyllgor Materion Deddfwriaethol ac yn enwedig y Pwyllgor Cyllid a'i Gadeirydd, Simon Thomas. Mae craffu wedi gwella’r Bil hwn, Dirprwy Lywydd, o'r materion penodol iawn o sut y dylai’r gwastraff gael ei bwyso neu ostyngiadau dŵr gael eu cyfrifo i'r materion ehangach o nodi diben amgylcheddol y dreth yn y Bil i bob pwrpas, ac mae cyfeiriad yno at y cynllun cymunedau .

Bydd cam nesaf y gwaith nawr yn cynnwys y gweithredu’r ddwy dreth a gyflwynwyd gerbron y Cynulliad yn ystod blwyddyn gyntaf tymor y Cynulliad hwn a’r broses o sefydlu’n ffurfiol Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru ym mis Hydref, gyda chyfarfod cyntaf bwrdd yr Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru sydd newydd ei sefydlu.

Dirprwy Lywydd, credaf fod y Cynulliad hwn wedi mabwysiadu dull cydweithredol ac adeiladol o weithredu’r ddeddfwriaeth hon, yn seiliedig ar y dymuniad cyffredin i greu deddfwriaeth trethi deg a chadarn yma yng Nghymru. Yn ysbryd y cydweithredu hwnnw, rwy’n gobeithio y bydd yr Aelodau'n cefnogi hynt y Bil hwn y prynhawn yma, y ​​trydydd o dri bil treth yng Nghymru.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Conservatives will be supporting the passage of this Bill at Stage 4 of this legislation. As you yourself have indicated over the weeks and months of this process, landfill tax, as the second tax to be devolved, may not be the talk of pubs and clubs across this country but it is nonetheless an important tax, an important tool in the often talked about Welsh Government toolbox. And it’s vital, of course, that we have our own replacement for that tax when, in April 2018, the UK-wide landfill tax is switched off. That deadline is fast approaching so we appreciate that the Welsh Government does need to have an alternative.

It’s an important tax because of the environmental aspect of the tax, which was discussed extensively by committee members in the Finance Committee sessions. Clearly, over time, we hope that the tax take from it reduces because we hope that, over time, the amount of landfill will go down. But there is a strong need for this tax at this point and there will be for the foreseeable future.

Can I thank you as well for the way that you’ve dealt both with myself—and your officials have—and the way you’ve dealt with Simon Thomas, the Chair of the committee and the Finance Committee? It’s not always been an easy tax, task—I’ve got my taxes and tasks mixed up. I discovered over the last few months that tax legislation, even when it appears very simple at the outset, can at the end of the day become a far more complicated affair than was first foreseen. So, thank you for your patience and for your officials’ patience.

As you said in your opening remarks, the next stage is going to be implementation. Even since the process of Stage 3 and Stage 2 and the amendments that were made, as you will be aware, a couple of amendments have struck me that weren’t tabled at that time for differing reasons, and there is still a process of implementation and development of the tax to be done. You made several undertakings during the Finance Committee meetings that you would be watching that process very closely and that, where amendments haven’t been tabled to cover all aspects of this, you would be keeping a close eye to make sure that the tax is developing in the way that you would want it to and the committee would want it to, and that the spirit of that legislation plays out over the time to come.

I hope you will keep a watch now, and I hope that, where faults do emerge—. Because no tax in its initial development is perfect, so I’m sure there will be—obviously there will be—flaws that will be observed over the months and years to come. I hope that you and the Welsh Government will be looking closely to see that those can be ironed out. We do have the land transaction tax coming in at the same time, you’ve already mentioned the Welsh Revenue Authority, and I know you are, to use the expression, juggling a lot of balls in the air at the same time with all of this tax devolution. As you are aware and I’ve said, it’s not an easy task. We are more than happy within the Welsh Conservatives to support you on this difficult road, and I know you have the support of other committee members and other Members of this Chamber in ensuring that this process of tax devolution is as smooth and as professional and, at the end of the day, as straightforward and understandable to people out there, not just in here, as is possible.

We welcome, of course, the passage of the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill. As has been said a number of times during this process, I think it’s a very important step in the development of the first tax regime for Wales for nearly 800 years. Wales’s progress has always been, perhaps, a zig-zag, but there is progress, and it’s part of the maturing of our democracy, to tell you the truth, and that’s to be welcomed greatly.

We’re content, specifically, to see the Plaid Cymru amendment to the Bill, which was passed at Stage 3, and we’re very grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his support, and his willingness to listen always and work with us on a cross-party basis in a way that defines the spirit in which he always engages with this place.

The Plaid Cymru amendment, of course, ensures that Welsh Ministers have to draw attention to the objectives of the Bill in exercising their powers and duties under the Bill. This puts the environmental objective at the centre of the Bill and will ensure that it’s implemented in the way that it was designed, namely to encourage a reduction in landfill waste in future.

This tax, as has been said several times, is one that tries to put itself out of business, as it were. And, of course, the intention of this amendment was just to reinforce that and ensure that that is always a high priority, as I’m sure it will be, in the mind of the Minister and his colleagues as we move forward to implement this Bill.

I don’t suppose this Bill is the talk of bars and clubs up and down the land, but, if I ever get to a bar and meet a landfill operator, I will be able to talk with him or her for several hours now on landfill and the operations of it. And that’s very much a learning process that I went through on the committee, but I think the Government went through as well, because there were several amendments that directly arose from the collection of the evidence that we had that have improved the Bill and ensured that the Bill can operate effectively.

I’ve been on several committees here in the last six years that have taken through Bills, in a different guise I’ve done legislative competence Orders previously, and, in another different guise, done parliamentary Bills. I have to say that this has been the single most effective Bill process that we’ve undertaken. I think that needs to go on record, and my thanks are to the Minister and his officials for helping that process, but also to my fellow Finance Committee members and the members of our team as well for ensuring that smooth-running.

I think a lot of that was due to the approach the committee took, but also the approach the Cabinet Secretary took, because he not only listened to amendments, he actively worked with opposition Members on amendments, which I think is refreshing, and we had the wonders—the absolute wonders—of two amendments from Labour Party backbenchers taken forward and discussed in a Bill committee. Now, this is an innovation I want to see more of, I have to say. I want to see more of this, and taken forward in absolutely the right spirit that backbenchers hold their Government to account, but press interesting ideas, which the Government then responds to and comes back. And, indeed, at least one of them had a real impact and change on the Bill.

So, this is the way we should be making legislation, I feel, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s only the case—. Because sometimes you have an ideological difference, I accept that. If it’s the sale of council homes, whatever, you’re going to have that difference, and you can’t work in quite that way. But, when we can see what we can achieve together, we can, I think, improve Bills significantly. But, particularly if we’re going to have tax Bills and a legislative approach to the budget process, which is something, again, the Finance Committee’s interested in, then, the more we work together, the better we will be as a parliament, but, more importantly, the better the voters will know what we’re doing, understand why we’re doing it, and therefore support the work we’re doing. So, I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for the way he approached this and say that, at the end of the day, this was a Welsh Government Bill, but passed by a parliament of Wales.

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to reply to that debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’ve been very grateful throughout the passage of the Bill to be able to rely on Nick Ramsay’s advice on what is being talked about in the pubs and clubs of Wales. Every time he’s assured me that this Bill was not being talked about there, the happier I’ve become. What I am sure of is that if we don’t get the implementation of these taxes right then that will soon change, and people will be talking about it everywhere. So, he was absolutely right to say that there is a very serious job of work to be done over the next nine months so that, when we arrive in April of next year, the Welsh Revenue Authority is ready for its responsibilities, and the way that the two taxes that have been taken through this National Assembly are being administered will mean that people throughout Wales can go about their ordinary business confident in the knowledge that things are being done effectively.

Thanks to all Members who have spoken about the spirit with which the legislation has been developed. These are highly technical, highly specialist pieces of legislation. They don’t involve, as Simon Thomas said, great issues of ideology. They are Bills that have benefited from the scrutiny process and the ideas that have emerged during it. I’m very grateful to Members’ indication that they’ll be supporting—[Interruption.] Of course.

Thank you for giving way. You’ll recall, Cabinet Secretary, that members of the committee did consider an amendment at stage 3 that would have considered implementing a review process of landfill tax. We discussed that with you and you believed it would be more appropriate to have a review of LTT and landfill tax, for all taxes, rather than just an independent one. I wonder if you could reassure us that will be taken—I know you’ve considered it, but reassure us that it is taking place and that there will be a process at which all of the elements of these taxes will be reconsidered periodically.

Yes, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m very happy to give that assurance. It’s another example of a result where three parties were able to get together to agree on the best way of making sure that there is an independent review of both taxes carried out on a similar landscape, carried out to a similar timetable, and I’m very committed to making sure that that will happen, and I’m very grateful for the indications from Members of their support this afternoon.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.