The next group of amendments is group 9, relating to charging under Part 2 provisions. Amendment 36 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments.

Amendment 36 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

The amendments in this group all relate to the issue of charging for those things provided under this Bill. Let me start by saying that I agree with the principle behind Llyr Gruffydd's amendments 59 and 60. Local authorities should not be able to charge for advocacy services. Government amendments 36, 37 and 41 tighten up the Bill in this respect, and do so beyond just advocacy services. Amendments 36 and 37 make changes to section 45, which contains a prohibition on charging, so the prohibition covers anything a local authority or governing body secures for a child or young person under Part 2 of the Bill.

This would include the local authority's provision of independent advocacy services, as well as other matters the local authority secures for children and young people as part of the arrangements it must make under Part 2. The amendments also make clear that a child, a child's parent or a young person is not liable to pay any charge made by any person for things an authority or governing body secures for the child or young person under Part 2.

The Children, Young People and Education Committee, in its Stage 1 report, expressed concern that section 65(4) might allow the recipient of advocacy services to be charged for the service. Amendment 41 makes section 65(4) clearer. It allows the local authority's arrangements for the provision of advocacy services to include payments by the local authority, for example to the provider of independent advocacy services. This redrafting removes any ambiguity. It could not allow the child or young person to be charged for the service.

Llyr Gruffydd's amendments focus solely on section 65. While I have no issue with the intention behind them, they would be made redundant by the Government's wider amendment. I would also suggest the Government's approach is preferrable. It is undesirable to include specific provision in section 65 prohibiting charging the recipient of the service when there is a general prohibition covering this and other matters provided for in Part 2. It may risk casting doubt on the width of the general prohibition. Therefore, I would respectfully urge Members to support the Government amendments 36, 37 and 41, and to oppose amendments 59 and 60.

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the clarity that she has provided on this? I did raise the need for more clarity in section 65, in terms of charging for independent advocacy services during Stage 2, and the Minister agreed at that point to look again at the wording. In light of the Cabinet Secretary’s comments, I am happy not to move amendments 59 and 60 when we get to that point.

Cabinet Secretary

No further comments, but to thank Llyr for his work in this area. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 36 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Therefore, amendment 36 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 37.

Amendment 37 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 37 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 37 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.