The next group is group 14, relating to advocacy services. Amendment 17 is the lead amendment. I call on Darren Millar to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Darren Millar.

Amendment 17 (Darren Millar, supported by Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. The purpose of amendments 17 and 18 is to amend section 65 of the Bill to ensure that the parents of a child or young person with additional learning needs will always have the opportunity to access independent advocacy services. These amendments give effect to recommendation 26 in the Stage 1 committee report, which suggested that the Bill be amended to ensure that local authorities be required to provide independent advocacy services to parents, when requested, even if that parent is not a case friend. It was clear from the evidence received that advocacy is needed for parents as well as learners and case friends, and there were concerns that because parents were never explicitly given the right to independent advocacy in the Bill, it could potentially be unavailable to some parents or only available in exceptional circumstances. TSANA noted that the Bill did

'not explicitly provide for the provision of advocacy for parents', and that parents were not necessarily defined as case friends in the Bill, and therefore eligible for advocacy. The National Deaf Children's Society agreed. They said that if local authorities and bodies know that parents have access to advocacy services, then that helps to police things itself. So, providing access for parents of children and young people with additional learning needs to independent advocacy, I believe, will help to avoid heartache; it will help to avoid delay; and it will help to avoid, very importantly, costly resolution further down the line, where they might get involved, for example, at a tribunal level. So, I urge Members to support the amendments and I very much hope that the Government will give support too. 

I call on the Cabinet Secretary. 

Presiding Officer, I'm afraid I cannot support amendments 17 and 18, which seek to compel local authorities to refer parents to independent advocacy services. The Bill provides that independent advocacy services must be available for children, young people and case friends. It is right that the child or young person themselves—or a case friend on behalf of a child who lacks capacity—should be the user of the service. This ensures that the voices of vulnerable children and young people are heard. To expect local authorities to provide advocacy services for parents too does not fit with our policy that the system should be centred around the child or the young person. So, I do not support the amendments on a point of principle.

But I'm also not convinced that the amendments would actually operate effectively in practice. They seem to suggest that local authorities must refer parents to advocacy services, whilst not also requiring authorities to make provision for services for parents. So, there would seem to be deliverability issues were the amendments to be agreed.

If local authorities were required to make arrangements for advocacy services for parents, there would be potential financial implications for them, and that has not been costed or discussed with local authorities. Members should note that a local authority’s duty under the Bill to make arrangements to provide information and advice, and to put in place arrangements for the avoidance and resolution of disputes, do cover parents. So, the Bill does provide for parents to access advice and ensures that they can raise concerns where that is appropriate.

It's also worth Members bearing in mind that, in most cases, parents and children would be working together to pursue the child’s best interests. So, an advocate for the child would also, in effect, be expressing parental views.  

For all of these reasons, I would urge Members to oppose the amendments.

Darren Millar to reply. 

I'm disappointed by the Government's response. It's very clear that there are times when case friends of children and young people are not parents, and there are also times when the views of parents will conflict sometimes with the views of a case friend, who may have significant influence over a child. And I think, because of that tension, potentially, in the system, it's really important, actually, that parents have the opportunity to have some direct access to independent advocacy services. At the moment, on the Bill, you've suggested that it might add complexity to the Bill in the provision of independent advocacy services. I just can't see that at all. On the one hand, you're saying it adds complexity and on the other hand you're saying that many of the case friends will be parents anyway, already accessing some support through the independent advocacy services that the local authorities will be required to provide. Parents are entitled to information and advice. Why shouldn't they be entitled to advocacy services as well? It doesn't seem to be right that parents are excluded from one part but included in another. 

So, for consistency's sake, and to ensure that parents have the opportunity also to challenge the system, I think it's essential that parents on the face of the Bill have a right to access these independent advocacy services so that they can challenge the system when they might need to to ensure that their child or young person is getting the services that they need. So, I urge people to support the amendments.   

The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 17 is not agreed. 

Amendment 17: For: 23, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Darren Millar, amendment 18. 

Amendment 18 (Darren Millar, supported by Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

Formally. 

The question is that amendment 18 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 18 is not agreed.

Amendment 18: For: 23, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Llyr Gruffydd, amendment 65. 

Amendment 65 (Llyr Gruffydd, supported by Darren Millar) moved.

I move. 

The question is that amendment 65 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, and 27 against. Therefore, amendment 65 is not agreed.

Amendment 65: For: 23, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Llyr Gruffydd, amendment 66.

Amendment 66 (Llyr Gruffydd, supported by Darren Millar) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 66 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 66 is not agreed.

Amendment 66: For: 23, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Llyr Gruffydd, amendment 59.

I don't intend to move this.

With the consent of the Assembly, therefore, we won't put amendment 59 to a vote.

Amendment 59 (Llyr Gruffydd, supported by Darren Millar) not moved.

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 41.

Amendment 41 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

I move.

The question is that amendment 41 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 41 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Llyr Gruffydd, amendment 60.

I don't intend to move amendment 60.

With the consent of the Assembly, therefore, we won't move to a vote on amendment 60.

Amendment 60 (Llyr Gruffydd, supported by Darren Millar) not moved.

Darren Millar, amendment 19.

Amendment 19 (Darren Millar, supported by Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

Formally.

The question is that amendment 19 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, and 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 19: For: 24, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Darren Millar, amendment 20.

Amendment 20 (Darren Millar, supported by Llyr Gruffydd) moved.

Formally.

The question is that amendment 20 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 20: For: 24, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 42.

Amendment 42 (Kirsty Williams) moved.

Moved.

The question is that amendment 42 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 42 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.