And that brings us to our next item, which is a statement by the Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport on the future of Cadw. Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It is a particular pleasure for me to make my first statement—hopefully not the last—as Minister, on the future of Cadw.

Earlier this year, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport provided an update on the recommendations of the steering group report, 'Historic Wales—A roadmap towards Success, Resilience and Sustainability for the Heritage of Wales'. The report included a specific recommendation relating to the future governance of Cadw, and that a business case should be taken forward to identify the best options. The business case was received at the end of September, it was presented by the Cabinet Secretary to his Cabinet colleagues in October, and I am happy to implement the Cabinet decision, and to accept its core recommendation that Cadw should remain part of Government.

In the business case, consideration was carefully given to the steering group recommendations that Cadw should become a charitable body or an executive agency outside of Welsh Government. Having considered this carefully, and measured this against the status quo, and undertaking an in-depth analysis of the functions of Cadw and the drivers for change, it was seen that the arguments in favour and against Cadw being inside Government were relatively evenly balanced. However, in the current climate of financial challenges, in terms of legislative time and in issues of HR related to creating a new organisation, we had to look too at the fact that Cadw had been very successful in terms of increasing its income levels within Government, and contributing towards innovative legislation and policy development. One other key issue is the additional costs of creating a separate body. Also, by remaining within Government, Cadw could have made a greater contribution to our central goal of 'Prosperity for All'.

And so, whilst there are potential benefits having been identified of moving the organisation to a more arms-length status, I want to emphasise how exceptionally well Cadw has performed, particularly over recent years within Government—commercial performance driven by major improvements to the Cadw visitor experience. I've had wonderful experiences myself, particularly in north Wales with the work done at our castles. The year 2016-17 was the most successful in Cadw's history, with £6.6 million in generated in income. Following on from this, early indications of visitor figures for this year suggest that Cadw is on course for another successful year. Cadw has run several successful marketing campaigns and has won awards, which encourage visitors to the historic sites in the care of Welsh Government. Cadw has achieved this and has delivered groundbreaking legislation in terms of engagement with the public, and has brought about social and economic benefits for the people of Wales.  

Therefore, in examining the case for retaining Cadw within Government, the business case recommended a series of business improvements that will be an important way of addressing issues identified by previous reviews, in terms of staff and stakeholders. Therefore, this will enable Cadw to function better whilst responding to the issues raised in recent reviews and including the need to generate further income and to work more effectively within public sector governance requirements.

I want see Cadw's success continuing, and these improvements will provide greater clarity for all by ensuring that key strategic decisions will remain with us as Welsh Ministers and the day-to-day operations with officials. It also allows for better planning and provides flexibility on recruitment within budgets. Cadw will also continue to be an active member in its own right in the strategic partnership for the heritage sector. This partnership is taking forward a number of collaborative activities allowing our national heritage organisations to share expertise and become more effective, resilient and commercially astute in the challenging financial climate that we face. The new arrangements for Cadw, in my view, will allow it to build on its current success and maximise the contribution of the partnership and the wider heritage and prosperity of Wales. Thank you very much. 

Can I start by welcoming the Minister to his new post? I confidently predict great political success ahead for you. But you will need all your skills, because you are now perhaps having to reflect on a decision that, in April, you perhaps had indicated wouldn't be the eventual direction the Government is taking, in that you seemed very sympathetic to Cadw being placed outside Government. I do understand that you've now had a business case and obviously the examination of that case is material. But the challenges of Government are indeed formidable and I do wish you well with them. 

In April, the Cabinet Secretary said that in reviewing Cadw's structure, his, and I quote,  

'aim is to allow the organisation as much freedom and flexibility to enable it to fully realise its commercial potential'. 

I do now wonder how will this commercial potential be realised. We know obviously the funding situation is challenging and there is a funding freeze for the next two years. So, is this decision going to in any way inhibit some of the commercial potential that was previously identified by the steering group's report that did recommend moving Cadw outside Government? I think this is a very important question: is the decision now taken by the Welsh Government an expedient and temporary one? Because the wording of the statement I think is very cautious. I do wonder if this is the final say that will be had on Cadw's future. 

The Cabinet Secretary in April did say that other models were worthy of consideration, notably 'internal realignment'—I quote him—or Welsh Government sponsored bodies. So, presumably, internal realignment now will actively take place. I'd like some more information on that if possible, and, in the future, if, as I suspect, the current decision may not be permanent, whether some form of Welsh Government sponsored body is likely to be considered.

I would also like to know where we stand with the development of strategic partnerships for the heritage sector. Are some initiatives and developments now off the agenda because Cadw is to remain in Government? Most people did think there would be more flexibility for these partnerships and a lead role that Cadw was meant to take if it was outside Government. Now it won't be, and are there going to be more restrictions than we might have otherwise anticipated?

And finally, on a slightly separate matter, what progress is being made with the cultural skills strategy, and is it still on course to be in place by October 2018? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much for your kind congratulations and for your seven subsequent questions. When I was undertaking a previous role in this Assembly, I took the view that Ministers generally would have done very well to answer two and a half. So, I will try, if I can, to respond to what you've said.

What we are looking for in Government and what we are hoping and confident that Cadw will achieve is a way of delivering a public service in the very distinct and tourist-related and attractive field of heritage and major heritage buildings, and a way of doing business within Government that would be innovative and progressive. 

The performance of Cadw, which I alluded to in terms of the enthusiasm of its staff and the income that has been generated already, indicates that that basis is there. Now, this is not necessarily a model that could apply even across the whole of the Ministry of heritage and culture, but I hope we will be able to look to developing this model further, following the success of the Cadw model.

Therefore, past reference to what discussions happened and the views that some of us may have taken at that time is not necessarily relevant to where we are now. No decision in Government, or possibly in life, can be said to be final, but as far as I'm concerned with this particular decision, this decision will give Cadw security from now on in. It is not my intention to further review the position of Cadw.

I intend, through this Assembly and through the period of this Government, if I still have responsibility, or whatever happens here—I am trying to indicate that this is what we expect of Cadw: to respond to the new framework we have given them. I do believe that the business case and all that came out of the discussion of the business case and the commercial potential will prove beneficial.

I must say that the officials who lead Cadw within Government have impressed me with their willingness to innovate. I'm equally impressed by the willingness of the staff of Cadw and the trade unions involved in Cadw to co-operate with these reorganisations that may be necessary, and I do think that we will then deliver further results in terms of the income that is generated.

Thank you for the statement. The news doesn’t come as a shock—to some of us at least—because you did allude to this at the Welsh language committee last week. It is all-important that our national cultural organisations are protected, supported and developed. These institutions play a very important role in the life of our nation. Today’s statement states that Cadw will continue as part of the Government, but doesn’t talk about the rest of our cultural and conservation organisations. You do refer to them in talking about the role of Cadw in the strategic partnership for the heritage sector, but it would be useful to have your confirmation or otherwise as regards any reorganisation or merger of any cultural or conservation organisations. That is, will Cadw, the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historic Monuments of Wales, the national library and the national museums continue as separate organisations? That is, has your predecessor's idea of Historic Wales now gone? Of course, it was a commitment in the Labour manifesto, and it is true to say that it was highly contentious, but does today’s statement signify the beginning of the end of the concept of Historic Wales?

In addition to safeguarding our conservation and cultural organisations financially, it is important that they are also nurtured. But, I also see that there is a great deal of emphasis in the statement on the financial model for Cadw—a great deal of emphasis—and that begs the question of whether this is just a financial decision on behalf of Welsh Government. So, it would be useful to see the business case that supports this decision. Can you give us a date for when the business case will be published, and on the remit of that report? Is there any consideration given to other conservation and cultural organisations, and do any operational issues apart from the funding of bodies receive consideration? 

You say in your statement that the commercial performance of Cadw has improved significantly and that visitor numbers suggest that Cadw is on the right path. At the Welsh language committee last week, there was confirmation that Cadw admission prices will be increased, but there was no confirmation by how much. In doing that, won’t it undermine some of the work that has been done, as we could perhaps see fewer visitors and therefore militate against the progress that has been made? Thank you.

Thank you very much for those questions. In terms of admission prices, our intention consistently is to retain a balance between open access, as far as possible—and free access to organisations and institutions such as museums—and the right or opportunity of citizens who live near significant monuments—. You will be aware of the situation in Caernarfon, as am I, where admission prices to these buildings are tempered by opportunities for local citizens to access these monuments. I will say more tomorrow, I think, as there is a question tabled on this issue, about reorganising the plan for local residents to have easier access to these buildings and to make that less complex.

No, I have no intention to merge any other national institutions. I want to make that clear. I may have an intention—and not too confidential an intention—to perhaps create, or to give another national institution the opportunity to rename itself as a national institution in a language that can be understood by all, but that is an issue for the institutions themselves. I don’t intend to be interventionist as Minister, but I will be using my position, as will the relevant committees of this Assembly, to scrutinise what these bodies are doing.

Financial considerations don’t drive cultural policy. Cultural policies are decided by issues of culture and, particularly in the case of Cadw, the pleasure we can give to ourselves as citizens and residents to enjoy our heritage, and the inspiration we can draw from them, and the huge interest that is expressed by visitors to Wales in the way in which we safeguard our heritage. That is the driver.

In terms of Historic Wales, Historic Wales is alive and well as a partnership between heritage organisations. Good practice within Cadw, particularly its practice in terms of generating income, will hopefully be an inspiration to other major national institutions that generate far less income than Cadw currently does and where a high proportion of their funding comes directly from the Welsh Government budget. I won't name any names here today, but you will understand what I'm alluding to, and this effort by my predecessor, fair play to him, to actually rattle the cage that has brought us to this position in ensuring a future for Cadw within Government while simultaneously being a business organisation.  

I am delighted to congratulate my old friend upon his assumption of office as a Minister. I've followed his progress through the several parliamentary institutions of which he's been a member over many decades, and I'm pleased that he still has the capacity to surprise us even at this late stage. And, in passing, I can say that I'm pleased that this country seems to be enjoying a kind of geriatric efflorescence. The Liberals are now led by a 74-year-old, I'm the same age as Jeremy Corbyn—69—and others of our vintage are still pulling their weight in politics, and I'm delighted that Dafydd Elis-Thomas is now a member of the Government. 

Cadw performs two functions, of course. It's the state heritage agency on one hand, but it also has another role, which is capable of being commercial, as an operator of heritage visitor attractions. In the evidence that the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales gave to the culture committee, they said that Cadw needs to be free to be more entrepreneurial and commercial, which means that current constraints on recruitment, procurement, budgeting and succession planning all need to be addressed. And I wonder if the Minister can perhaps expand a little on what he said in reply to David Melding about enabling Cadw to take advantage of commercial opportunities but, nevertheless, inside Government, because this is what the recent inquiry has been about. I appreciate that the report says that the argument is finely balanced, but, clearly, Cadw does need to be able to spread its wings and I wonder how they might be able to do this.  

Thank you for your very kind remarks, and I remember with affection your period in Government, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me standing where I am today to refer back to that. But you have indeed understood the function of Cadw very clearly, and this is what we are seeking to ensure develops under our announcement and our proposals today. 

As regards recruitment, if Cadw is in Government, then clearly there will be an opportunity for people who are working within the public services to seek preferment and to seek career development within the organisation. But it will always be essential that the commercial, businesslike approach that we've outlined today is indeed the approach taken by the organisation. What I found in the years when I was involved with other forms of public sector management for the  wonderful, of course Conservative, Government of the 1990s is that it's essential, when you're dealing with institutions, that you have within Government, or at arm's length from Government or part arm's length from Government, people who are able to deal with business and deal with third sector institutions in a way that brings them on board as you develop change, and this is what we'll be seeking to do with Cadw.

Now, clearly, I'm not going to make any comments about how the recruitment structure is organised in detail, because although, as I say, Cadw remains within Government, it will have the flexibility within its development plans and its management structure to enable it to work in a commercial and businesslike way.

Can I also add my congratulations to Dafydd Elis-Thomas on his appointment as a Minister? I'd also like to thank him for the statement he's made and the clarity of the decision to keep Cadw as part of Government. I am, however, disappointed that the opportunity to examine what it is for and what it has achieved in respect of protecting the historic built environment was not taken. 

There are two examples I'll give you from Swansea East. Firstly, a nineteenth century church associated with the Morris family was refused listing by Cadw. However, a 1960s church on the Portmead estate was listed, much to the amazement of my constituents. Maes-y-Gwernen Hall, which was once the home of the renowned tin plate family and produced two MPs, and which also hosted former British Prime Minister Lloyd George and his family, was not only refused listing but is due to be demolished. Derelict Danbert House, which was the home of the son of a tin plate owner, has been listed. Finally, the view that I share that Cadw would prefer to see a listed building fall down than it be altered—. But it appears that, as long as it generates further income then the above does not matter. What I cannot understand is why responsibility for listing buildings cannot be given to local authorities, who know their area.

Thank you, Mike, for your kind remarks. And then you seek to lead me right down into a western bog, I think, somewhere near to your constituency. It is not for Ministers to make decisions about listing. It is not for Ministers to make decisions about what local authorities should do in this area either. I think we need to look for partnerships.

I'm not going to talk about the planning aspects of your question because, clearly, I am not responsible, thank goodness, for planning matters.

But as far as Cadw is concerned, it has been mandated through this decision to work in partnership with those other institutions that are part of Government and, in particular, to work regionally with local government. And that is what we are looking for. It is a way in which marketing plans link the tourist potential as well as the conservation interest with the role of the institution, such as Cadw, to develop further. Therefore, I am going to disappoint you by not expressing a view on matters that are without my portfolio.

Can I also congratulate the new Minister on his post? We've had an excellent working relationship in all sorts of different capacities over the years, and I'm sure that he'll do an excellent job in his new role. As the new Minister will know, I take a keen interest in Wales's heritage and, in particular, its spiritual heritage and faith heritage, and I was really struck by the increase that you referenced in visitor numbers and the commercial success of Cadw in recent years. I wonder to what extent that might be linked to the campaigns that Visit Wales has had on the Sacred Wales theme in recent years.

He will know that one of the fast-growing areas of the tourism market is faith-related tourism, particularly in terms of some of the pilgrim trails that we've got here in Wales, many of which call through and at a number of important Cadw sites. I wonder whether you can tell us whether that is something that you expect Cadw to be able to take advantage of from a commercial perspective in the future?

Can I also just ask about the Cadw annual membership fees? Obviously, there are some reciprocal arrangements that take place with other heritage organisations across the UK, both in England and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, and these give advantages to people who become Cadw members, but I think perhaps one of the great commercially successful organisations that's involved with heritage is, of course, the National Trust, which also has many buildings that it is responsible for here in Wales. I wonder what links the Minister might expect Cadw to develop with the National Trust as a potential partner, so that people can enjoy perhaps shared membership of both organisations in return for their membership fee in order to promote more spending at Cadw sites and to assist in making the organisation more commercially viable.

Again, thank you for your very kind remarks. It is always a pleasure to hear you expound the delights of the heritage, especially of the north, where, as you know, I still spend as much time as I can and continue to do so. In fact, I will be working out of the office in Llandudno Junction this week, and I hope that we can meet there perhaps in future.

But I'm not going to engage with the National Trust. I'm an individual member of the National Trust, as I think I'm still an individual member of Cadw—I shall have to check whether I've paid my dues. But the importance of partnership working, on the ground especially, between our institutions and our commercial, third sector, voluntary—and the National trust is an interesting mix of what is a voluntary organisation, with a voluntary membership, which has a statutory basis. So, all these partnerships are tasked, as far as I'm concerned, with collaboration on the ground in their regions. And as we develop strategies linked with tourism and with the historical and built environment, we need to encourage collaboration that is already taking place.

Now, as regards spiritual matters, I tend to leave that to the archbishops. [Laughter.] However, when I will be attending the enthronement of a new archbishop of the church that I belong to, which, as you know, is the Church in Wales, I will certainly seek an opportunity to make sure that the partnership we have between organisations of all kinds—while at the same time, of course, respecting the disestablished nature of the Church in Wales, and the right of people not to belong to a faith community at all and yet to participate as citizens in Wales—are equally maintained. So, not all the money is going to be directed towards one denomination, I can assure you.

Thank you, Minister.