3. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to commissioning an independent inquiry into allegations of abuse on Caldey Island? 76

Any allegations of abuse are truly abhorrent, and survivors were not given the response they deserved when they first spoke out. We would advise anyone who suffered abuse to come forward in confidence and report allegations of abuse to the police by ringing 101 or to contact local authorities' social services or indeed the Truth Project on 0800 917 1000.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for that response. Like you and everybody else in this Chamber, we were appalled and shocked at the allegations that have emerged in recent weeks of abuse by a monk on Caldey Island. Eleven women so far have come forward to say that they were abused by Father Thaddeus Kotik when they were children, and of course they are all suffering lifelong consequences as a result of that abuse. In fact, one of those women claims that a second person also abused her on that island. Who that person is and where they are we don't actually know, and we know that other cases may well come to light, and I too would encourage people to report their concerns.

We also know that allegations of abuse, of course, were brought to the attention of the abbot at Caldey Abbey back in 1990 but were not reported to the police at that time, and that since that date, a child sex offender, Paul Ashton, hid on Caldey Island for a period of seven years trying to evade justice. And I have to say, I think the whole thing stinks. It smacks of a deliberate cover-up of abuse by clergy on that island, which is frequently visited by young children, a place that ought to be safe, which hasn't been safe in the past. And I think we need answers. We need answers as to who knew what, when, and why the abbey didn't report things to the police when they ought to have done when things were brought to their attention. We also need to know when Pembrokeshire's social services department knew about these claims and what action they may or may not have taken in the past to protect young children visiting that island.

I'm appalled by this and I think that it would be wise to ask you to organise an independent inquiry into what went on, because we do need to learn lessons and we need to be confident now, particularly given that we don't know who this second person is, that young children are safe visiting that island in the future. School trips are still going on, Cabinet Secretary, and we need to be sure that those children are protected from abuse.

Thank you for those additional comments. Can I say that, in light of the recently emerging allegations and fresh allegations, Dyfed-Powys Police are currently engaged in ongoing investigations into these allegations? As such, I hope you'll understand, Darren, that it's not appropriate for me to comment further at this moment, because of the risk of jeopardising the police investigations and inquiries.

But Members will also note that the children's commissioner has written to Caldey Island abbey themselves to seek assurances, but also that she has said that it is, at this moment, too early to call for an inquiry, not least because of the detail that is still emerging and also because there is a police investigation currently live, under way. It is worth pointing out, however, that in addition to the massively transformed safeguarding environment for children and adults within Wales there is also a national Catholic safeguarding advice service. And as I mentioned, the children's commissioner has written directly to the abbey on Caldey Island seeking assurances that they are following the Catholic Church's national safeguarding policy—their own safeguarding policies as well—and their procedures on child protection.

Darren is absolutely right in saying that we need answers to this. We need to know how this happened, but also—it's often an overused phrase—to learn lessons about how we can avoid this and minimise the risk of it happening again. We have done so much in Wales in improving our safeguarding procedures, but if there are lessons to be learnt from this, both for the Catholic Church and also in terms of wider safeguarding, we will ensure that we learn those lessons. And in that respect, I fully understand the calls for the answers to the questions that have been put. But at this moment, there is a police investigation under way.

Minister, I've listened very carefully to what you have said to Darren Millar, however I do have two other points I would like to make. The first is that Dyfed-Powys Police were aware of these allegations themselves in both 2014 and again in 2016. The reason they did not move to prosecution was they said there was little point because the monk in question had since died—he'd passed away. However, there should still have been some form of investigation, because how did they know that he was the only one? How did they know that he didn't have conspirators in terms of a cover-up? How did they know that there may not be other children put at risk? I'm not overly impressed with the actions of Dyfed-Powys Police on this matter, and I would like to ask you, as the Minister, to write to them in the strongest terms for them to actually investigate how they acted and whether or not they took the appropriate action at the time, because I think that they have been found wanting on this matter. They should have looked at it and not just said, 'Well, never mind, the chap's dead, it's an irrelevancy.' And I do not think that they should be allowed off the hook on this.

The second point I'd like to talk about is the fact that I wrote last week to the abbot at Caldey Island and I asked him if he would refer himself or set up a full investigation to be carried out by another independent organisation. I appreciate that you feel that you cannot move forward because of the current police investigation, however I've thought on this further, and, as I'm sure you are aware, the Catholic Church themselves have an ongoing independent inquiry into the sexual abuse and exploitation of children in the Roman Catholic Church. I appreciate that, at the moment, they are looking at the Benedictine congregation, but I wondered whether you, in your capacity as Minister, would write to that inquiry, and ask them whether they would also look at the Cistercian Order on Caldey Island, because they do have a wider remit than just the Benedictine congregation. And I think it's very important that the Catholic Church are struggling with this issue, and that this is yet another example of where, I think, they should be looking at it to ensure that there is not systemic abuse going on within any of these organisations.

Thank you, again, for those additional comments and queries. And you're right in that there is a separate review within the Catholic Church itself of its safeguarding arrangements. We also note that the independent inquiry into child sex abuse is considering issues of failures of religious institutions, as part of the UK-wide inquiry. I can confirm that my officials have been in touch with the inquiry about the reported abuse, and we will of course not only keep a close eye on the way that that inquiry proceeds, but also seek to learn lessons from the inquiry's wider findings into religious bodies, into the investigations of religious institutions.

I will certainly consider the points that have been raised about writing further to others, but it is worth pointing out, even at this stage, whilst not saying anything in terms of the current police investigations that are proceeding—and I have to make sure that we do not jeopardise those live investigations—my officials will, under my instruction, request that both CYSUR and the mid and west safeguarding board keep me and the Welsh Government fully updated on progress so far with the investigation, but also on whether there are any current shortfalls in arrangements, and keep me up to date with that. I will certainly also write to the National Catholic Safeguarding Advisory Service to seek their assurances, both on historic matters, and on current issues as well. I will go back and speak to my officials on whether there are additional reassurances that we can give, in light of the points that the Member has raised.

In addition to the questions that have already been raised, I think it is important to underline that Caldey is a place of pilgrimage and sanctuary, which has been in the Christian tradition for over 1,600 years in Wales and people will continue to go there. And the current monks, although they're not directly involved in this scandal, are the inheritors of the tradition there and are therefore the keepers, quite literally the keepers, of the flame, in terms of the standards that need to be upheld on the island.

What concerns me from what I've heard and read in the press, and your reply today, is that even at the time that the original complaint was made, the rules in place then—even then; you've talked about the improvements since, but even then—meant that that complaint should have been referred to the police. It wasn't, and the then abbot—not the current, but the then abbot—in effect covered it up. That is a pattern of behaviour that we've seen wider, not in the Catholic Church only, but in church institutions—in all institutions, let's be honest; it's an institutional thing.

So, although in reply to other Members you've talked about the children's commissioner writing to ascertain that procedures are in place, what I'd like to hear from you today is that the Welsh Government will do that, and, ideally, that you can give assurances here to the Chamber today that you have either seen or have had assurances about the protection procedures for not just children, but vulnerable adults as well, on Caldey Island, and that these procedures are ones that are not only in place, but are actively followed, and that the right training has been put in place to ensure that the situation would be resolved if anything were to happen today. It's not just historic, it's not that the procedures were bad in the past; they weren't even followed. There was a deliberate cover up, and it's not that long ago, and we must be assured that it can't happen again.

Simon reminds us of the fact that, whilst we cannot ever rule out any eventuality of an instance of abuse—on a child or an adult—we do recognise that it is incumbent upon us as Welsh Government, not only police, not only safeguarding boards, to be active within our determination, not only to deal with the historic issues that have been raised today in the Chamber, but also to ensure that we absolutely minimise the chances of this happening. We have, indeed, across Welsh Government previously taken such action, not only in terms of changing the whole landscape of the safeguarding environment in Wales, both for adults and children with the national safeguarding board, the child and adult safeguarding boards, but also in our response to, for example, the Waterhouse recommendations where right across the piste if there were lessons to be learned and actions to be taken, we took those actions, and the same, I say to you, we will do again now.

And we're not taking a passive role in this. My officials are actively engaged, both with what is currently going on and the allegations emerging, but also what lessons can be learnt from historic allegations as well. We need to make sure that we keep to the absolute minimum the chances of this happening to any individual. He rightly points out the fact that Caldey Island, currently mired within the allegations that have come forward, also, for many people, is a place of religious sanctity. We have to make sure, and it's incumbent upon us as well as those acting on the ground—Dyfed-Powys Police, the safeguarding boards, Pembrokeshire council and others—to make sure that we put in place the safeguards, collectively, so that this cannot happen, and that we learn the lessons. But I'm afraid you have to understand that I don't want to comment further, particularly while there is a live investigation going on, but we will learn what lessons arise from this. 

Thank you, Minister, and the next question, Leanne Wood.