We should also, I think, consider, when we talk about long-term economic development, the impact and, at least, potential positive feedback into taxes for Wales. When we have the 10p of income tax from April, we look at the public inquiry about the cost-benefit ratio of the black route and assess that, but another issue is: what are the particular impacts for the Welsh exchequer of this? Ken Skates, he is pushing this enterprise zone in central Cardiff and trying to get more investment into offices there. Then, he sees his colleague three seats along putting this supertax in play to make any developer pay an additional amount of money if they want to develop offices at any scale in Cardiff rather than in Bristol. I hope when he considers investment in roads, he will also look, actually, if we can boost economic activity by increasing accessibility and reducing congestion, and what the impacts are, in turn, on the tax revenue we may get in future.

I also hope when we look at road development, we think about integrating road development into the other mechanisms of transport. Of course, the buses travel on the roads as well as cars, but I hope we also look to support the train network and get the train network to work better with the road network. To take the example of the M4 relief road, if that were to go ahead, I would support, at both ends, having new stations. There's this fantastic proposal for St Mellons, where it would be privately funded as a train station, as a parkway, where people could come in on that big, new motorway, if it happens, but not then add to congestion in Cardiff because they could park there—all paid for privately—and then come in by train into the centre of Cardiff.

Similarly, I'm very, very keen to support the proposal for a walkway station at Magor and Undy, and I'm delighted that Ken Skates is now allowing the further GRIP stage to go forward on that. I'd like to thank him and the Welsh Government for the financial support with that. But if that, then, enables commuters at the other end of a potential black route to choose to take the train into Cardiff as well, and that to be a real option, then that is all to the good. 

Lee Waters criticised, I think, the reduction in the Severn tolls and then the abolition we should have at the end of this year, but it's only just over a year, I believe, Lee, since you voted for the motion I put to this Assembly that the Severn tolls should be abolished. And it is now going to happen, thanks to the Conservative Government in Westminster. 

Before, we heard Carwyn Jones, a few years back, suggest that we should keep those tolls and continue to gouge those motorists in order to pay for transport improvements. I'm pleased that the UK Government is not allowing him to do that and has taken the decision to abolish, rather than devolve, the tolls and trust to the good sense of a Labour Government in Wales as to what they would do with that money, or otherwise.

I do, though, think that—following up on Suzy's remark about tolling—I think we had a proposal from a previous transport Secretary at UK level for widespread tolling, and over 1 million people signed the petition very quickly against that. The main reason for that is a degree of cynicism as to what will happen with the money. People just see it as another way of gouging them to raise taxes, to get money out of them. What's really important is that if we are, in the future, to look at different charging proposals, (a) there's a possibility of public transport, as often there is in London, perhaps, where there's been more road charging coming in, but also that it's offset by lower taxes elsewhere.

When we're looking at testing these mechanisms for new taxation in Wales, we all talk of the four options to raise taxes. But, actually, if we are talking about innovative solutions, and looking to work with the UK Government on how to do this, then the issue we have to consider is that road-charging schemes, potentially, are devolved, but the revenues coming on motorists from fuel duty and vehicle excise duty are not devolved. So, any proposal in Wales to have a road-charging scheme would likely imply increased revenues coming in and people having to pay more. What about looking at if you were to have an area where you were to do that, could you reduce, perhaps, the vehicle excise duty for cars registered in that area and work with the UK Government to do that to actually bring in a tax reduction? We need to work together as Governments and look to the future and try and get the systems working together for the long-term benefit of the country.