The next item, therefore, is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services on reforming electoral arrangements in local government, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement—Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I wish to take this opportunity this afternoon to inform Members of my proposals for taking forward reforms to the arrangements for local government elections, including who can vote, how they are registered, how people vote and who can stand for election. My statement today focuses on arrangements for local elections, but I'm aware, Presiding Officer, of the work that you have in hand on reforms to this Assembly and that very much the same arrangements will also apply in the future to Welsh parliamentary elections. Legislative proposals concerning local government elections in Wales will be included in a local government Bill, which I intend to introduce later this year. The proposals are in keeping with the consultation last autumn, the detailed results of which I will be publishing very shortly.

Local democracy is all about participation. We want to boost the numbers registered as electors, make it easier for people to cast their votes and give more people the right to take part. We have seen how in recent years the move to individual registration—which I believe was rushed and underprepared—has led to some groups of people dropping off the register. I intend to counteract that in part by enabling and encouraging electoral registration officers to automatically add people to the register where they are satisfied with the information to hand. That should work particularly well with school students where local authorities already have their details and simply need to transfer these to the ERO. Anyone automatically registered would be added to the edited register, not the one available to marketing organisations, and they would be contacted to confirm their preferences and whether they would be happy to go on the full register or, in the case of anyone whose identity should not be revealed, to become registered anonymously.

I also intend to create an all-Wales electronic register, combining the registers held in each county with a common format, making managing the registers more efficient and making easier the process of splitting registers at elections that cross county boundaries.

Voting at elections in this country has been conducted in more or less the same way since the nineteenth century. Most of us go to a polling station and put a cross on a piece of paper using a heavy leaded pencil on a piece of string. Many people like this in fact, because it is a bit of an event, a chance to speak to the neighbours, and, in general, people do trust it. However, Presiding Officer, we also know that it is increasingly at odds with people’s everyday lives, and this is especially true for young people. For this reason, I intend to legislate for pilots at local elections and by-elections that would explore the options of electronic voting and counting, and voting in different places and on different days. The Electoral Commission would need to evaluate any pilot before we moved to make anything permanent and widespread, but time is overdue for making the voting process more modern and more flexible, observing, of course, the need to keep any new system completely secure.

I am particularly pleased to be setting out these electoral reforms today because we will very shortly be celebrating the hundredth anniversary of the first women being allowed to vote in elections in the United Kingdom and the introduction of universal male suffrage. It is therefore fitting that I am able to state my intention, making use of the powers due to be transferred to this Parliament under the Wales Act 2017 from April, to extend the franchise further in a number of ways.

Presiding Officer, I intend that 16 and 17-year-olds will be able to vote at the next local elections. We will be following Scotland in this, and their experience already shows how much young people of that age welcome the opportunity and make use of it to further the democratic process. Within schools, the active citizenship theme of personal and social education will provide young people with an understanding of politics and the right to vote.  

Everyone who has committed to life and living in Wales should be able to play a part in our inclusive democracy. We intend to allow anyone from any nationality who resides in Wales to be able to register and vote in our elections. This will transcend the debate over the future of EU citizens’ voting rights by making clear that people from all nations and nationalities who have made their homes here should be able to participate fully in our democracy.

I am also exploring options for extending the rights of prisoners to vote in local government elections if their due release date falls before the end of the term of office of the council being elected. They would be able to vote by post or by proxy on the basis of a connected address in Wales, usually their last address. People who are sent to prison need to feel part of the community when they are released, and the right to vote will form part of this.

Presiding Officer, I intend that local government will move to a five-year term, in keeping with this Parliament and that intended for the United Kingdom Parliament. Individual councils will be able to choose whether to change to the single transferable vote system. A change would first require two thirds of the council in question to vote in favour of changing. The new system would have to be used for the next two rounds of ordinary elections.

I also intend to make some changes governing candidacy at local elections. I want to follow the practice that already applies to parliamentary elections and allow candidates to publish just the ward where they live rather than their home address on election documents. I will also put arrangements in place to enable candidates to publish policy statements on a council website.

I also intend to make it easier for council employees to stand for election to their own council. At present, they have to resign before they can even stand as a candidate. I will change this so that they only have to resign if elected. However, I will also urge local authorities to offer career breaks for at least the first term of office.

Presiding Officer, that is my initial proposal. I am also aware that many Members feel that at least some council employees should be able to serve as councillors in their own authority, and I will listen carefully to the deliberations on this matter during scrutiny. I wish to put on record that I will positively look for ways in which we can accommodate these views when we come to legislate. I therefore will be approaching this with a completely open mind and will be looking at ways of enabling council employees to stand for election to their own authority.

I believe the central issue here is around remuneration. If the levels of payments made to councillors for doing their job was more comparable with wages, taking a break from other employment would become more realistic. I intend to review this matter, together with the independent remuneration panel, over coming months.

Presiding Officer, I strongly believe that Members of this Assembly should not also be councillors and I intend to legislate so that they become disqualified from council membership. I am also going to require candidates to declare any registered political party membership if they are not standing under a party banner. Failure to do so could result in disqualification.

Finally, I intend to amend legislation so that the role of returning officer will be undertaken by the council's chief executive. The returning officer, usually the council's most highly paid officer, will no longer be able to claim a personal fee from their own council or for running Welsh parliamentary elections. It is not publicly acceptable, particularly at a time when ordinary council workers are subject to such restraint. I commend this statement to the Chamber.   

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for this statement. It does present some opportunities, but it also presents a number of questions. Of course, we recognise the need, as highlighted by the Electoral Reform Society, to increase participation in local democracy. However, the issue of whether to seek the reforms outlined to tackle the root causes of the problem of voter disengagement and the disconnect with politics felt by so many residents in Wales will be covered by the proposals you are bringing forward.

Local authority representation in Wales is in danger of becoming a closed shop. In the 2017 local government elections, 7 per cent of county borough councils seats were left vacant. At town and community council level, 81 per cent of seats were either uncontested or vacant. Further, engagement with local councillors is appallingly low in Wales, with a whopping 84 per cent of respondents to the national survey for Wales saying that they had not contacted their councillor in the previous 12 months. And as we've alluded to on numerous occasions here, a lack of transparency is endemic, because between 2016 and 2017, local authorities fully or partially excluded the public from 39 per cent of cabinet meetings, and in Bridgend this was 93 per cent.  

Welsh Conservatives have pushed for a more thorough package of reforms, aimed at increasing voter engagement, for many years, including the community rights agenda under the Localism Act 2011, yet the Welsh Government has failed to give any credit to this, or any more powers or any more controls to local communities. And really, it is fair to say that you've failed in terms of local democracy and allowing local communities to have their say more on democratic issues. Cabinet Secretary, can you explain how your proposals address the urgent need to increase participation and engagement in these areas? 

Now, concerns are already being raised about automatic registration of potential voters. Cabinet Secretary, can you advise as to how you envisage this being balanced in terms of data protection legislation and the use of personal data, as well as how you would ensure that this process is to be completely protected and free from voter fraud? 

On this matter also, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary how you intend to go forward with postal votes, given allegations last year of duplicating voting and, of course, issues raised around the practice in Tower Hamlets. What a missed opportunity if you're bringing in local government electoral reform. Anybody here who's ever stood in any election at any level knows that postal votes with some of our older demographic can be an absolutely vital tool and help them to vote, but it can be very complex also with signatures sometimes with a slight difference. Those votes are then cast aside and not actually registered as a vote. So, I would ask you, Cabinet Secretary, whether you would look at how we can simplify the postal vote process so that, actually, people are more confident at using it than they are at the moment. 

In relation to your proposals for pilots for electronic voting, voting in different places and on different days, you'll be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that previously the Electoral Commission found that a trial of additional facilities for voting by the then Labour UK Government had little success in targeting opportunist voters such as the young and the elderly, with a majority stating that they would have voted anyway. Therefore, I would be interested in the costings that you can evidence in regard to these schemes to enable proper cost-benefit analysis prior to any pilots being given the green light. 

You expressed the intention to enable 16 and 17-year olds to vote at the next local elections. How do you balance giving 16 and 17-year olds the vote when this Assembly has legislated against them previously, for example, using a sunbed? And parental permission is still required to marry or serve in the forces. I would also at this point mention that, as a serial campaigner, the 18 to 30-year-olds are often disenfranchised because, of course, politics isn't taught in schools. There is that sort of void—[Interruption.] Yes, all my schools in Aberconwy would like to see the political system more on the curriculum. So, I would ask you how you intend to ensure we have greater participation of those people who are already able to vote now.

As regards your proposals to allow individual councils to change to the single transferable vote system, you will recall that, in response to the ‘Reforming Local Government: Resilient and Renewed’ White Paper, 60 per cent of respondents favoured first past the post as it was felt it was better understood, and 94 per cent felt it was better to keep the one voting system for the whole of Wales. This response seems contrary to your proposals today, so how can you justify that?

We welcome the requirement for candidates to register political party membership if not standing under a party banner and the improved transparency and accountability that this would provide, because we're all aware—and in police commissioner elections—where people actually stand as independents when, in reality, they are members of a political party. I know that three members in Conwy County Borough Council who were elected as Plaid Cymru last May are now of no political party within that council. 

And finally, we greatly welcome—and we've been calling for this—the proposed changes in terms of ending the remuneration of returning officers by their own councils. It is wrong, as you've rightly pointed out, that you can have a chief executive on a higher salary than the Prime Minister of this country and yet they can also earn another 20-odd thousand pounds as a returning officer. That is wrong. If you're stopping the double-jobbing of Assembly Members and councillors, then you should be looking at that and I endorse that.

And absolutely finally, in relation to changes to eligibility of candidates, I wonder what costs might be entailed by local authorities giving career breaks for candidates who are successful at election who are council employees, where conflicts of interest are likely to arise. Also, again, there will be costings if departments are allowing people to fulfill duties as a councillor—how their work and things will be covered in terms of costing.

So, I think there are a lot of questions there for you, Cabinet Secretary. I look forward to scrutinising this as it comes forward. I will just say this: I'm glad that you've had the courtesy at last to bring this to this Assembly. It was disappointing to see UK Labour tweeting this announcement before we, as Assembly Members, had had any courtesy shown to us. I would just say that that is not the best way to get off on a good footing when you want to bring such serious change to our electoral system. Thank you. 

Presiding Officer, I think the whole Chamber will be with me when I say I'm delighted that I'm not always accountable to this place for the actions of the United Kingdom Labour Party and their press office.

I would say to the Conservative spokesperson to perhaps move away from her counsel of despair. We seem to have listened to five or six minutes of a list of all problems and difficulties that are faced in making any change whatsoever. I have to say to the Member concerned and to other Members that we will increase participation when we persuade people there's a purpose to voting and that voting can change something and that voting can have a purpose in shaping the future of our communities. Simply listing problems facing people does not, I would suggest, inspire change anywhere with anyone.

I will say to the Conservative spokesperson that town and community councils will not be affected by the announcements I'm making this afternoon. She will be aware that there is a review currently taking place, which was announced by my predecessor, the now Cabinet Secretary for Finance, and I will be making further statements on the future of town and community councils when that review reports, which I expect to be at some point in the early summer. 

Can I say, in terms of attempting to answer at least some of the questions that she has asked this afternoon, that this is a part of a package of reforms? She will be aware from questions that we had last week and the statement I made on the local government settlement that I have asked all Members here, as well as council leaders and Members of the UK Parliament, what powers they believe should rest with principal local authorities. Now, I trust that the Conservative Member for Aberconwy on this occasion has written to me by tomorrow's deadline in order to provide me with her views on these—[Interruption.] She didn't give me her views on anything. I wish she had. It would make my job easier. Let me say this: I presume—[Interruption.] I can only presume—. I don't want to get into the issue here of what e-mails have been sent or not sent, but I presume that she will be writing to me this evening to provide me with that package of proposals that she has.

I am putting together a series of reforms to and with local government to underpin local democracy to ensure that we do have participation in local elections and to ensure that local councils and local authorities are more powerful in the future than they are today. This is a part of that package of reform. It is not the totality of that package of reform, and it is also the first statement that I make here on the whole reform process. 

The Conservative spokesperson has asked questions about voter fraud and data protection. I have to say to her that, where this is already being practised in Scotland, there is no evidence of any of those issues being an issue for the Scottish authorities. We don't expect them to be an issue for us. We will ensure that there is proper protection in place for all those on the register, whether they are 16 or 17 or in fact anybody who is vulnerable in any way. And we will ensure that there are proper guidelines in place to ensure that data protection and voter fraud are not issues of any new system.

I do accept the point that's been made about the ability to simplify postal votes. Clearly, many people we know and many electors do rely on postal votes, whether it's because of infirmity or because of work commitments that mean they're unable to vote in person. I hope that we'll be able to continue to simplify the process of postal votes, but I have to say that we will need to ensure as well that postal votes remain a secure form of voting. The reason, Presiding Officer, I am seeking permissive powers in this legislation in order to provide us with the pilots to enable us to consider different changes to the voting system is to do exactly as the Member suggests, which is to understand in practice how these proposals will work in terms of how we elect new councillors in the future.

I hope that we will be able to look at a diversity of different proposals to improve and drive up turnout. I hope that people will be able to vote electronically in the future. I hope that we'll be able to vote on our telephones in the future, and I hope that, even if we are unable to do that in the near future, we will be able to move to a system of electronic counting in the near future. I will say to the Member, who seems very—how shall I put it—lukewarm about the suggestion that we should increase the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, that I see young people as being motivated to take part in the political process where politicians are able to demonstrate there's a purpose and a view to voting. I think it is our responsibility here and elsewhere to explain to people how voting can change something and the importance of taking part in the election process.

It's a matter for others to take some of the views that have been expressed in terms of proportional representation versus first past the post. I have to say to the Member for Aberconwy that part of personal and social education is around active citizenship. I'm surprised that she is not aware of that. Our ability to communicate and to educate young people about the importance of the political structures of governance of Wales, of local government and of the United Kingdom will help us, I hope, engage a new generation of people in taking part in our democracy and holding, I hope, us all to account.

I want to focus on three aspects that you've noted in your statement this afternoon, and all three relate to increasing participation and better representation within local government. The way that young people come into contact with politics in their early years is crucially important for the future of representative democracy, and therefore Plaid Cymru welcomes your intention, as a Government, to extend the franchise to include young people of 16 and 17 years of age for local government elections. But, without doubt, there is a lack of understanding of politics in Wales. For example, do people know which Government is responsible for the various services? This extends to all age groups. Assessments have been carried out by Cardiff University, for example, that demonstrate that there is a problem in terms of a lack of interest and information among students in Wales in politics in general, but there’s even less interest in local politics.

So, in welcoming this positive change, one turns their sights to political education, and we’ve discussed that in broad terms already. I believe that there’s a golden opportunity here—along with introducing the vote for young people, we must also give more emphasis on improving political education as part of the curriculum. You’ve mentioned citizenship under personal and social education, but I would like to hear your views as to whether more needs to be done. Do you have any plans to look further than what’s currently proposed within the curriculum?

It’s understandable, isn't it, that political alienation can happen in a society where people don’t see the value of voting, and therefore don't take notice of politics because perhaps they feel that their vote doesn’t always count with the first-past-the-post electoral system? Therefore, I welcome your commitment, in the past and in the statement today, to introduce STV for local elections, but it simply isn’t going to happen unless it is mandatory for all local authorities in Wales. It must be mandatory for all local authorities—it shouldn’t be an arbitrary option. In reality, it’s not councils that should decide whether they want to be accountable to their constituents through a fair electoral system; the Government should make that decision on an issue of such great principle. Not making that a mandatory change does show a lack of leadership, in my view, from the Government. It also avoids the duty that the national Government should have—that leadership should be shown.

We know the benefits of STV. STV has been used in local elections in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and for the Assembly elections there too, and, as a result, local elections are far more competitive, the make-up of local government is closer to the wishes of the people and there’s far more interest in elections when they are held through the STV system. So, I remain to be convinced of the argument that you’re trying to make in making STV an option. I simply don’t understand, apart from the issues, perhaps, of self-interest and party interest involved here. I don’t see any other rational argument for not making STV mandatory for local elections in Wales.

To continue with the theme of representing the population more accurately, I’m going into an area that you perhaps haven’t touched on. The consultation document on electoral reform doesn’t discuss how to enhance the representation of minority groups on our councils, and it doesn’t either tackle the issue of how we reach gender equality. Only 28 per cent of councillors are women, of course, and we must tackle that problem, which is a fundamental problem in terms of a lack of equality.

I think I heard you on the television on Sunday saying that we need more consultation on your proposals for the regionalisation of services. If there’s to be more consultation, I wonder whether you would consider also consulting on various options to ensure gender equality within our councils. After all, gender equality in our Assembly has been accepted in principle by the First Minister and by the Minister for equality in this Chamber, so why not do that? So, why not do something within local government too? That discussion is a very lively one at the moment, and I do think that it’s very timely for us to consider how we can use the electoral system to achieve equality in our local authorities, and I’d like to hear your views on that. Thank you.

I’m grateful to the Plaid Cymru spokesperson for her general welcome of our proposals this afternoon. I concur with very many of the points that the Member has made, Llywydd. I agree with you when you talk about the lack of understanding of politics in Wales. I know that my friend the Secretary for education, for example, will be writing to the BBC today after their report on Today yesterday talking about the education policy in Wales and England—and I think they were saying 'England and Wales'. I do think that there is a lack of understanding of Welsh politics and politics in Wales and the nature of Welsh politics, not particularly among young people but amongst us all, because we don’t have a platform within the political world or the media world in the UK that explains how the UK is governed and the constitution of the United Kingdom. I think that that is something that we need to consider further. I see that the Minister for broadcasting is present in the Chamber this afternoon, and I’m sure that he will continue to raise these issues.

Citizenship is vitally important. It’s important that it’s taught in our schools, but also, I would say that citizenship is important to us all, and understanding how we all live together is something that is vitally important. I very much hope that the way in which we change our politics to extend the franchise to young people, and to also ensure that we change the way in which we campaign when we stand for election—. I think that is going to be extremely important in inspiring people to vote for the first time.

The Member also tempts me once again—how shall I put this—on the issue of STV and the voting system. My personal view is completely clear, and the Member knows where I stand on this. I support STV for elections both here, Westminster and local government. I have no doubts on that and I agree with the Member on the benefits of STV. Of course, that would also assist to resolve the problem that Janet Finch-Sunders raised in her contribution with regard to the lack of competition for some seats in some parts of Wales.

But I, and I would suggest that you too, will have to acknowledge that there is not sufficient support currently to move to this system. Without general support across the country, I don’t believe that we should force or impose change of the electoral system on people. We create these new powers to enable councils to make their own decisions if they think the people they represent wish them to move in such a direction. But the only way we can change the general system is by pushing it through, and I don’t believe that I wish to do that, and I don’t believe that there is currently enough general support across the Chamber to do that. I’m sure that I would campaign with other Members to perhaps change that in the future, but that is where we are today, and I believe that the statement that I have made today reflects the current situation.

I agree with you when you talk about equalities and the way in which we can use the structures in local authorities to ensure that minority groups are represented in councils across the country. This has, of course, been a matter of discussion in at least one of the White Papers that we’ve seen on local government over the past few years. I am considering it at present—it’s not a central part of the statement that I have made this afternoon, but I did suggest in my statement that we would consider how we remunerate councillors in future in order to ensure that we can appeal to more people and create more opportunities for people to stand for election in the future. I do think that that would assist in ensuring that we have a more equal representation within chambers across the country in the future. So, I hope there will will be a discussion, and I will lead a discussion and debate on this in the ensuing months.

Thanks to the Minister for today's statement. There are a few sensible points in that statement that we would broadly support, and some more contentious ones. To start off with the good stuff: the role of the council chief executive as the returning officer in local government elections. We would agree with you that it should now be a statutory role for the council chief executive, and the excessive remuneration for that role of returning officer should be ended, particularly in these times of cash-strapped local councils. So, we fully agree with you on that. We spent a little time talking about STV. I think that's an interesting issue—interesting because we now have a Minister who has publicly supported that system, which is a good development. The question is: will your presence as the Minister be able to have any meaningful effect on local council elections and the way in which they are held?

Now, David Melding is sat over there, and he will probably, with his memory of things that have been enacted in this Chamber, or not enacted, remember that this was an issue in the first Assembly term, when Rhodri Morgan was broadly in favour of changing the voting system but nothing happened. And here we are, 15 or 16 years later. Now, we have moved to a position where you are going to say that councils will be allowed to move to a system of STV, but it's not going to be mandatory. Okay, you could make the point that you need to consult and you can't force councils into doing something, and you need to uphold the principle of localism. You could come up with various arguments, but the problem is that you are going to end up, probably, with many Labour-run councils, which are simply going to stick with first-past-the-post. I mean, that's blindingly obvious. So, we will look with interest as to what happens as a result of you enabling local councils to move to the new system, but I do share Siân Gwenllian's scepticism as to what will actually ensue.

Now, the other points—many were raised by Janet Finch-Saunders in her rather comprehensive look at what you were doing. I tend to agree with lots of the points she made. I won't rehash them, of course, but just to reiterate the points she was making about potential voter fraud. I agree, e-voting—it's interesting. You could enhance the engagement of more voters—that's a laudable aim. You cite the fact that in Scotland, where there's been a pilot, there hasn't been much evidence of fraud. Well, please keep an eye on this, because we don't want to hear in four or five years' time that there is lots of fraud going on.

We've already had the issue of the massive increase in postal voting, which has led to instances of electoral fraud—as Janet cited, the example of Tower Hamlets. So, I would also ask if you could include in your review a review of this massive increase of postal voting. And do you agree that postal votes should only be available to those that genuinely need them? So, that would be one question. Another question is: what particular safeguards are you going to bring in regarding e-voting?

The issue of 16- and 17-year-olds—well, you had a little pop at Janet when she talked about the education system, but it's actually many of the young campaigners who want votes at 16 and 17 that have raised the issue of what they call 'unbiased political education'. So, they do seem to feel that that is lacking in the system. So, I would ask again, as others have asked today: is some change to the education curriculum required? But, of course, there's also the problem of how on earth you actually provide unbiased political education. So, it is rather a double-edged sword, that issue. So, that is going to be difficult as you proceed.

Lastly, prisoner votes—this does seem rather a perverse move, as it seems to be completely unsupported by the general population. The most recent opinion polls seem to indicate that 70 per cent of the population are against giving votes to prisoners. If you are going to try to give prisoners the vote, will any effort be made to increase the vote among serving armed forces personnel? Thank you.

Presiding Officer, whenever we debate these matters, there's a clear divide in politics, where parties of the left wish to increase participation and to encourage people to vote, and those conservative parties of the right seek to prevent people from voting, and take part in voter suppression and seek to find ways of placing barriers in terms of enabling people to vote. And let me say this: I want to persuade and to encourage, and even, dare I say, to inspire people to vote and to take part in our democracy. And you do not do that, Presiding Officer, by listing difficulties, listing problems and giving us the counsel of despair time and time again.

I stood for election, not simply to describe the difficulties of the communities I sought to represent, but to find answers to those problems and find solutions to the issues that we face. And that is why, in seeking to make this statement this afternoon, I want to encourage more people to vote. I want 16 and 17-year-olds in this country to feel part of this community and have a stake in the future of their families and their communities. And we will give them the right to vote, and we will ensure that they feel able to exercise that right. We will do that simply through education, but we will also do it by the way in which we campaign as political parties, and by the way in which we govern as politicians and Ministers. And we will inspire people to vote. That's my approach. It's what I want and expect the whole of this Government and others to do.

But let me say this: the whole purpose, the purpose of providing for permissive powers to enable us to look at different options, and to look at different potentials and possibilities, to enable us to make these changes, are to understand the consequences of those changes, and to understand the consequences of what we're seeking to propose. Therefore, we will ensure that all pilots are looked at and considered by the Electoral Commission, completely independently of Government, and before we make any fundamental permanent changes to the electoral system, we will ensure that it is secure, we will ensure it is protected against fraud, and we will ensure that it performs as we expect it to do, and that means increasing participation as well. 

But let me say this: in ensuring that 16 and 17-year-olds are able to vote, we are looking at increasing the franchise and giving them a stake in our society and in our communities. Let me say this: I want to ensure that those people, particularly those people serving relatively short prison sentences, also feel that they have a stake in the society and the community in which they will be living. We need to ensure that, mainly in this case, young men, feel that they have a stake in their community, and we need to put a clear emphasis on rehabilitation, on training, on ensuring that people don't feel that they're being locked out of society, but feel that they've been given opportunities to play a full part in our society. And we will do that by ensuring that people who are serving these short sentences are able to vote in local elections, and feel that they are appreciated and valued in our society, and that we will invest in their futures as well as our futures. 

I welcome the opportunity to ask questions on the local government statement. My view, although possibly not held by everyone here, is that we do not discuss local government anywhere near enough.

I welcome the proposals to boost the numbers of registered electors, to make it easier for people to cast their votes, and give more people the right to take part. Surely that's what democracy is about—making it easier for more people to vote. I warmly welcome votes for 16 and 17-year-olds. My daughter and her friends, who are 16 and 17, felt highly aggrieved that they could not vote in the European referendum, which they thought was going to have a big effect on their future. Moving every election to a common fixed term is important because it stops elections to different spheres of Government being on the same day, so each one can have their own mandate. Whilst I support councillors seeing out their term after election to the Assembly, no Assembly Member should be able to stand for any council. For highly paid chief executives to be paid extra to be a returning officer makes no sense, and some councils have already made it part of the chief executive's role. I  welcome the pilot schemes.

Four questions. Why can't we use a common electronic register so that people can vote at any polling station? On electronic voting, I have confidence in the security against hacking. What safeguards will there be against people harvesting the codes and then using them? On electronic counting, what is to stop the type of hanging chad debacle that cost Al Gore the presidency? 

On people working for local authorities, can you not distinguish between those who are directly employed and those who are indirectly employed? We had the example of people working for organisations that are partly funded by a council, you find examples historically of people working in polytechnics, you've got schoolteachers who are all excluded, and, although they're paid by the council, they're sort of one step removed in terms of their employment. So, can we have some means of distinguishing those who are directly employed, and those whose employment, whilst paid for by the council, is indirect?

Presiding Officer, nobody would ever accuse Mike Hedges of not talking enough about local government, and we welcome his experience and knowledge of the subject. I told Members last week that I would never challenge him again, and I hope to stick to that in this answer today.

I hope that, in terms of establishing a national electronic register, we will be able to move to a situation whereby we will be able to vote when we're not necessarily in our ward, or constituency. Certainly, I would welcome that myself, and I assume that those are the sorts of issues that we would rely upon technology in order to solve. I see the leader of the house, who is responsible for digital matters in this Government, is nodding, and I'm delighted that she is, which gives me reassurance that, at least on this issue, I'm hopefully getting things right.

In terms of the safeguards in terms of codes and other matters, we will ensure, clearly, that these matters are secure. That is why we are seeking to introduce pilots, and not moving straight to new systems. And I think the pilots that we operate we will learn from, and we will, I hope, ensure that we have a participative democracy, where people feel able to take part in elections wherever they are, and to do so easily.

In terms of electronic counting, the systems that we have viewed in operation are different systems to those that the Member describes in Florida. And of course it is counting the votes rather than registering the vote that we are talking about in terms of electronic counting. I'm absolutely confident that that is one reform that we could introduce very, very quickly.

I made, Presiding Officer, a point in my statement of seeking to ensure that we do have an open view on issues around directly and indirectly employed by local authorities. The point that the Member has raised is absolutely correct. It is not our wish to prevent people from taking part or standing for election if there is any way at all in which we're able to encourage people and enable them to do so. So, the conversation that we will be having over the next couple of months will be a practical conversation about how we can enable people to stand for election to authorities from which they will receive a payment, and not a point of principle or a negative conversation about how that can be stopped. It will be a positive and open conversation about seeking to enable more people to stand for election, and how that can be managed.

There's much in this statement that I generally welcome. I realise that we've got a few months ahead of us before the legislation is brought into the Assembly, so I do hope the Cabinet Secretary is in listening mode. And, myself, I think extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds will allow us to spend more time on discussing education, particularly for the under-18s. I don't think we do discuss education enough. I have always thought it crazy that Britain remains, I think, the only modern, industrialised state that has the divide between elementary and secondary school education at 11. I mean, nearly every other nation I know of does it much later, and we may discuss some of these fundamentals more.

However, I do have some reservations, and I'm just raising these now because, as I said, I do agree with a lot of what the Cabinet Secretary has said. I think breaking the link between citizenship and the right to vote is troublesome, and we do need to consider this in much more detail; it needs very, very careful thought. Unless we propose the same reform for Assembly elections, then we risk degrading the value of the vote for local authority elections, by allowing non-citizens to vote in their elections. So, I think we need to be very, very careful. If we allow non-citizens to vote, should they also have the right to stand for election? And this again, I think, would be a troubling precedent. I know we've allowed European Union citizens to vote, but that's because we subscribe to—well, at the time—a common EU citizenship, and for very similar historical reasons, Commonwealth citizens have also been allowed to vote, and our citizens have had reciprocal rights elsewhere, for instance, in the Republic of Ireland.

Secondly, and I know why this has been proposed, and it is difficult to co-ordinate the electoral cycle, but I think five-year terms are simply too long. They're too long here. By the fifth year, we're all exhausted and we need a new influx of talent and ideas. And the other thing is that the legislative cycle is also affected. If you give people five years it can take them a long time to get ahead and do essential reforms. We're still waiting for a real flow of the most important legislation that will come before the fifth Assembly and it was exactly the same in the fourth Assembly. Five-year terms are too long.

Finally, disqualifying councillors from being Assembly Members, I think, again, is troubling. You should allow the local electorate to decide. Being a member of more than one legislature, I think, is something you could say is a profound conflict of interest. But, being a councillor is no more of a conflict of interest than holding a job. We have our Standing Orders that allow for that to be managed through declarations of interest. In the Westminster model we have the mother, not of all Parliaments, but of all contradictions and conflicts of interest, in having members of the Government—pretty much a full-time job, I would say—in the legislature. So, I simply don't think there are very convincing theoretical arguments to say that councillors cannot sit in this Chamber. 

I hope I can reassure David Melding that I'm very much in listening mode. I hope that I always am, of course, but certainly in terms of providing a statement this afternoon, this concludes a period of consultation, but we haven't yet, of course, moved forward to legislate and we won't be doing that before the autumn. It certainly is my intention, as I said in reply to Mike Hedges earlier, to actively listen to what is said.

I'm afraid I probably must disagree with David Melding on the issue of citizenship. I do recognise the point he makes and I don't necessarily feel it's an entirely invalid point. However, I think more important to us is the cohesiveness of our communities and the sense that people should be able to play a full role in our communities if they are ordinarily resident in that community. So, I hope that we will find a solution. We understand already that a person seeking asylum could not vote until their application had been determined and they'd been granted leave to remain in the United Kingdom. Those granted asylum and resident in Wales would be entitled to register to vote. For me, the sense of inclusivity in our community and in our society is the issue that drives me and why I believe that we should ensure that everybody who is resident in a community should be able to play a part in shaping that community. 

On the issue of five-year terms, I have to say that I have a great deal of sympathy with David Melding on this. I've argued publicly and privately for some time that I believe four years is a sufficient term for this place, for the United Kingdom Parliament and it would be for local government as well. I feel that the point he makes about an institution becoming tired after a long period of time without an election is a good point, and all of us who have served a number of terms here understand and appreciate the point he makes. For me, I would prefer all of our democratic institutions to serve fixed four-year terms. However, since we are in a position, at the moment, of this place moving to a five-year term and the United Kingdom Parliament having whatever term it seems to choose, despite the legislation that's been passed there, then it seems to me that local government should be treated in the same way. However, if we were to reopen that debate, my vote would be for a four-year and not a five-year term.

The final point he makes is that of disqualification of councillors in the National Assembly. He and I have sat together in the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, as have others, and have debated this point on previous occasions, and we've all taken part in debates here in the Chamber on the matter. I feel the argument has been made and has been won in terms of—. There is a clear conflict of interest between people who come here and sit in this place and also sit elsewhere. Can I say this? I don't believe the issue of a time constraint that others have said is especially important and convincing and persuasive for me. What is important for me is the role of this place and the place of this place in our democracy. It is important that—I hope in the future that local government will be seen to be a full-time role, representing the people there, but if, for example—. I'm trying to avoid using any examples as I speak. If, for example—let's use me—I had been elected to represent, when I represented Mid and West Wales, but I represented a ward in Aberystwyth. I think people in Pembrokeshire or Powys would have reason to ask significant questions about me, about where my priorities would lie. We've seen, time and time again, people who sit in an individual council return to their ward issues here when, really, we should be representing the whole of the constituency, whether that's an electoral constituency or a regional constituency.

I also believe that since we do take decisions here—. And I do disagree with the point of principle that David Melding has raised here; we take decisions here on funding and on statutory matters that will then be an issue for local government. It is not right, it is not proper, that a councillor should then be involved in taking those decisions at both levels.

I have four more speakers wanting to speak. If everybody can keep to a very succinct question, I'll try and call all. Jenny Rathbone.

Diolch, Llywydd. I disagree with Janet Finch-Saunders that we should simplify the postal vote verification system. We have to make sure that the person who's casting the vote is the person who's entitled to do so. But I do wonder whether—. I agree that many votes are actually put in the bin because they haven't filled in the form properly, and I wondered whether we can consider sending back that vote to the person who failed to complete the verification, explaining that the vote was null and void, and that would then possibly enable them to consider not voting by post next time.

I think people with literacy or learning difficulties should be discouraged from voting by post because it's much simpler to go to a polling station, where all they've got to do is find the candidate they wish to vote for on the list. But I do think your proposals around electronic voting and different days for voting enable us to ensure that people who have difficulty going to a particular place, which is open for 15 hours—. We could have roving voting polling stations, for example, in care homes or in supermarkets for very short periods of time, which would enable people who have difficulty walking to the polling station—enable the polling station to come to them. That is what electronic voting systems would enable us to do.

When you're thinking about how we actually improve the accuracy of the electoral register, don't let's just think of school students, but those who are providing homecare ought to be able to automatically register somebody who'd dropped off the register because of their illness. Registered care homes and nursing homes ought to be obliged to register people who become their residents, who may indeed have difficulties conducting that sort of registration electronically.

I'm happy to see—

You will need to come to a question now.

Okay. On the questions of STV, will turkeys vote for Christmas? Because those who have been elected under the single, past-the-post system are unlikely to want to change the system to another one. Therefore, how else could we proceed on this matter?

I was hoping that Jenny Rathbone would continue her final question on STV and provide me with an answer to the question. Look, I'm a strong supporter of fair votes, to ensure that your vote counts wherever you happen to live and to encourage people to participate in elections. And I think proportional representation does do that. However, we must all recognise that we don't have the mandate for that at present, and we don't have the support to do that at present, although I would say that, most of the studies that I have seen, in terms of how the outcomes of some of these elections don't produce some of the radical changes that some claim that they would as well. So, I hope that people would seek—and I hope that we will have this debate in this place about what is best for the institution and best for Wales rather than what would be best for perhaps for Jenny Rathbone or Alun Davies, and I hope that all people would approach the debate in that sense.

Can I say I think we should always look towards simplifying how we vote and to ensure that voting is seen to be as straightforward and as easy as possible? Clearly, the balance is to ensure that we don't have fraudulent voting and that we don't feel that the system is open to abuse. We're always looking, and, as a Minister, I will always look, towards simplifying the voting process, the electoral process, and we'll do that in a positive way. I agree very much with the points that you've made about the registration of electors, and to ensure that we have polling stations, or the ability to vote, in different places.

I'm going to touch on and question the culture of this Government in denying people choice. I really would like an explanation as to why you can be a landlord, with your proposals, and an Assembly Member, you can be a company director and an Assembly Member, you can be a university lecturer, even, and an Assembly Member, you can even be a Member of the European Parliament and an Assembly Member, and, of course, you can also be a member of the House of Lords and an Assembly Member. So, why is it that there's a focus on local government? And, yes, I'll declare my interest in being a councillor here.

I represent Fairwater here in Cardiff.

I'm very proud of representing my community on Cardiff Council.

But I think the public sees through this. It's pretty obvious that you're trying to play party politics and achieve through legislation what you're unable to achieve through the ballot box. Two thousand, four hundred and fourteen people voted for me to sit over there last May, and, as a matter of democratic principle, you do not have the right to tell those people how they should think.

You will need to come to a question.

I'm glad that Councillor McEvoy declared his interest. I have to say to him that, in terms of any personal antipathy here, I think he should look towards his former party rather than this Government.

I will be succinct, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I gave you earlier a copy of this document, 'Votes @ 16', which was really a summation of views from working groups in Y Pant School and Bryn Celynnog Comprehensive School in my constituency. Can I say how incredibly enthused they were, and I think are now, about this actual proposal? Let me just focus on a couple of points, and a question at the end. The first point that has been made, very succinctly, is that it would be non-understandable by that generation to talk about them having the right to vote if it can't be done online. Everything is done online, and I very much welcome the commitment you have about actually working out a mechanism on that.

The final point I want to make and ask you a question about is that the one thing that is absolutely clear is that the overwhelming majority of 16 to 17-year-olds want the right to vote, but provided they have the information, the capacity, to do so. That is a point they've made time and time again, and, in fact, when you originally asked them, they split 50:50 on this, but when you said 'if you were provided with the information that would enable you to participate properly', it rose to almost 100 per cent. It seems to me that the key challenge that we have to make for that generation, for those new voters, is the ability to engage from a very early age. And we have to get away from this obsession that we have about, 'Oh, you mustn't have politics in school'. Life is about politics, society is about politics, and we have to give the opportunity, from 12, 13, 14, 15 on—the ability to engage with them on political issues, on trade union issues, on social and economic issues, all the way through. Some of the schools that have their restrictions on that, I think we have to look at. So, we need a policy that is about positive and fair engagement with citizenship and social responsibility and that, it seems to me, is the biggest challenge of all in terms of the extending of the voting to 16 and 17-year-olds, even to the extent that quite a number actually said that, without that, they wouldn't want that opportunity. So, that is the challenge, Cabinet Secretary. How do you propose to deal with it?

I would take a leaf out of your book, Mick Antoniw. I think if Members haven't seen the document that he's produced, it is a first-class document and demonstrates how you actually do go about engaging with people. Let me, without testing your patience too much, Presiding Officer, just quote two sentences from it: 'Without exception, the students engaged in debates in an enthusiastic and thoughtful way. Their views were expressed with great clarity and conviction.'

I agree very much with the point that Mick Antoniw has made in terms of how to engage with people—and I think, if you don't mind me saying so, we've got a textbook example of how to do that in the way that Mick Antoniw has spoken with the students in Y Pant School in his constituency, and that is a great way forward for all of us.

But let me say, as I conclude, on this matter, we have expected and we expect young people to take decisions on their future life chances at 16. We should not exclude them from taking decisions on their community at 16. The American revolutionaries in the eighteenth century made it very clear to the British Government of that time that there would be no taxation without representation. It's something that many of us believe resonates down the centuries and that this Government will ensure that everybody in our community feels a part of that community and can play a role in shaping the future of that community.

And, finally, Julie Morgan.

Diolch. I welcome this statement. I think it's very positive, very forward looking. I, for a long time, have been part of a campaign to get votes for 16 and 17-year-olds. I had a private Member's Bill in the House of Commons in 2008 that ran out of time, but it certainly changed Labour Party policy. So, I'm really pleased today that we're actually making a move towards 16 and 17-year-olds voting, even if it is just in local government elections, because I hope this will follow very swiftly for Assembly elections. One of the main reasons I think that it will be so good to have 16 and 17-years-olds voting is that we will then listen to them, because what they have to say I think is so important.

I just have some few quick questions. I think automatic registration makes absolute sense, and I wondered if the Cabinet Secretary had considered the method of identifying young voters when they receive their national insurance numbers in order to get them automatically identified straight away. I'm concerned about the large numbers, the thousands of people, who are not registered and I'm particularly concerned about the fact that the black and minority ethnic communities are under-represented. The figures by the Electoral Reform Society show that 85.9 per cent of white people were registered to vote, but only 76 per cent of black and minority ethnic citizens were registered to vote. So, that inequality does exist, so how does the Minister think that we would be able to tackle that?

I support all the different ways he's suggested of trying to vote to try and increase participation. I welcome the idea of voting on different days. I wondered if he'd considered having a period of time to vote, like stretching over a weekend or over five days, as is done in some countries and some states in the United States. So, I wondered if that might be a way of increasing participation.

I support Siân Gwenllian's points about trying to get women more involved and I think—. I just want to finish, really, with the point that the Minister made, that you have to make people feel that there is something worth voting for if you vote, and that's absolutely crucial. My constituency of Cardiff North has consistently had the highest turnout in the Assembly elections and also in the Westminster elections. The reason it has that highest turnout is that you never know what's going to happen there; you never know who's going to win, and so people feel they have a real reason to vote. But, going beyond that, I think it is beholden on us as politicians to try to make politics relevant to people's lives because politics is exciting, but people don't always realise that.

Of course, the real reason for the high turnout in Cardiff North is that you have a fantastic candidate in Julie Morgan to vote for and an equally fantastic Member of Parliament in Anna McMorrin to support and to elect.

Declare an interest.

Can I say that I agree very much with the points that the Member's made? Let me return to the point on diversity, because it hasn't fully figured in the debate this afternoon. We need to ensure that people feel able and are able to participate in our electoral process. But we also need to ensure that people are able to serve after that election. My concern is, all too often, we've seen descriptions of the current cohort of local authority members and it is not representative of society as a whole. We recognise that. I believe we have to go much, much further and have a much more serious debate about how we provide remuneration and how we provide ability for people to serve as local authority representatives. It is absolutely my determination to address these issues. I will be addressing these issues in a further consultation in the next few months, and I will be ensuring that we're able to move forward on that matter.

The Member mentioned that she introduced a private Member's Bill some years ago in the House of Commons on reducing the age of the franchise. One of the first meetings I spoke in in this place was in favour of people who reach the age of 16 being able to participate in our elections here. Presiding Officer, you and I have met in order to discuss the proposals that I'm making today. I hope that we will be able to move forward to have a common franchise and a common set of electoral arrangements for our national elections to our Parliament and also our elections to local government in the future. Certainly, I will be working and doing my best to ensure that we're able to do that.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.