4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the implications of EU withdrawal for the port of Holyhead? OAQ51781

We are pressing the United Kingdom Government to ensure that Welsh ports, including Holyhead, will not be disadvantaged following Brexit. I discussed this with businesses in Ireland yesterday. It’s crucial that products and goods can be moved just as swiftly and seamlessly as before, and that the tariff arrangements must continue.

Thanks for that response. It’s worth reminding people that trade through the port of Holyhead increased by almost 700 per cent since the inception of the single market. We cannot afford to see Wales and the port of Holyhead being excluded from the customs union and not part of the single market. I am concerned about the implications of tariffs for trade. New routes would be developed, without doubt, between Ireland and mainland Europe. There is no room physically in the port of Holyhead to deal with the checks on trucks and lorries and so on. Now, unlike the leader of your party, Jeremy Corbyn, I am pleased to hear you saying that you believe in remaining in the customs union and the single market, but what are you willing to do about that? How far are you willing to push this? Sub-state Parliaments in other parts of Europe can have a real influence—a veto, even, in some circumstances—over decisions taken by the state. So, how far would you want to see the influence of Wales going in terms of deciding on our voice and the powers of Wales once we’ve left the European Union?

There are two points there. One of the things that I was told yesterday is that it’s vital, of course, that there is no kind of delay in Holyhead, Pembroke Dock or Fishguard, but that it's also vital that we want to ensure that Dover also moves as swiftly, because so many goods go through Wales and England, and then to France from Dover, and the danger is that there will be a slow-down in all those ports. An example was given to me of fish being exported: the ferry was late crossing the Irish sea and so, because of that, the lorries missed the boat, as it were, in Portsmouth, and then all those goods perished. Their worry is that, ultimately, that will be an usual occurrence. It’s right to say that there is no structure whatsoever in Holyhead, or even in Dover currently. It’s impossible to check every lorry, despite the example that was given.

And the second question. I have stated completely frankly that any agreement should come to this Assembly and to Scotland and Northern Ireland—hopefully—and, of course, to Westminster, and there should be a vote to agree on that agreement by every Parliament and Assembly, not just in Westminster, because in my opinion, without that, it's not sustainable.

Both the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee and the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee have gathered evidence from people like the Canadian consulate in Brussels, the Irish Government and others, giving us examples of how low-friction trade occurs across borders and through ports. We know that Irish Ferries last month confirmed their order for what will be the largest ferry—€165.2 million—in the world in terms of vehicle capacity, to run between Dublin and Holyhead. Last Thursday, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee took evidence on Anglesey from the Anglesey enterprise zone board on the Holyhead port expansion plan, which includes provision for Brexit. What consideration, therefore, have you given to the report from the European Parliament, 'Avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland for Customs control and the free movement of persons', which looks at a number of technological solutions and comes to a positive conclusion about how to create a low-friction border? That's from the European Parliament itself.

Well, I met with Irish Ferries yesterday, so I discussed with them their plans, and it is good, as I said earlier on, that they are looking to invest in new ships. But the Irish Road Haulage Association are very, very concerned about the potential for delay. They don't see border controls in terms of there being passport controls, but their concerns are: (a) will there be customs checks; and (b) will they be comprehensive or random? They were never comprehensive in the past; they were always random. And in reality there is no other way of doing customs checks without having miles and miles of traffic queueing.

My argument is this: I want to see an open border between the north and south of Ireland. I know that border exceptionally well, and I know it's impossible to see it, if that's the word you want to use, in any event. In the days of the Troubles, minor roads were blown up by the British Army and there were crossing points at various main roads. That's before there was a motorway built across the border. So, in reality, it's impossible to police that border from a customs perspective.

Good—if a way is found of doing that, I have no argument, but my argument is this: the same arrangements must apply to the maritime border between Ireland and Wales. We can't afford to have a situation where the maritime border is seen as more difficult, more bureaucratic and more troublesome for freight operators than the border between the north and south in Ireland. Why? There's an incentive there for goods to move through Northern Ireland to Scottish ports and into Liverpool and to avoid the Welsh ports, if that border is seen as more problematic. If it applies to one, it has to apply to all.