Item 5: a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on high achievement—supporting our more able and talented learners. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to make the statement. Kirsty Williams. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. This Government’s action plan for education, 'Our National Mission', commits us to a system that combines equity with excellence. It is these values that ensure that we succeed for all pupils and teachers, with an inclusive, innovative public service education. We can be rightly proud of the success of the pupil development grant in raising aspirations and ensuring extra resources for children from our most disadvantaged communities, and our new Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 paves the way for a new approach in driving improvement for that significant group of learners.

However, an education system that is truly equitable and excellent ensures that all pupils are supported to reach their potential, and I am very clear in this conviction. Therefore, Deputy Presiding Officer, we must follow the evidence. It is clear from PISA, previous Estyn reports, the Sutton Trust and UCL research that Wales must do more to identify, support and stretch our most able learners. As I have said on previous occasions, and outlined in 'Our National Mission’, we are committed to developing and delivering provision to address this weakness in our system. Quite simply, a truly equitable and excellent system supports and inspires the needs of all learners. My statement today further strengthens our commitment to an equitable, fair, progressive education system, which sets high aspirations and ambitions for all. We are not, however, starting from a standing start.

There have been improvements, year on year, as learners transition from primary to secondary, and last year performance at the highest grades at key stage 4 remained stable, despite the introduction of new examinations. At the same time, the pass rate for A-level students getting A* and A increased, and the Seren network goes from strength to strength. Within the further education sector, we have introduced a national programme to help practitioners support more able and talented learners and, more widely, improved decisions around GCSE subject choice and early entry are already having an effect. Set within this context, I want to further accelerate progress for our more able learners, whatever their background. Today, therefore, I am setting out core principles for sustained action and improvement: firstly, better identification and support at school, regional and national levels; secondly, opportunities that will inspire the highest levels of achievement; and thirdly, the development of a rich evidence base to support further investment and work.

There are already pockets of innovative practice in Wales, and I'm determined to see these rolled out. In fact, this is an area that suffers from a relative lack of high-quality international best practice and research. The opportunity is there for Wales to lead the way through both action and research. Therefore, I'm making available up to £3 million over the next two years. As a first step, this will support a new national approach for identifying and supporting our more able learners. We will establish a new definition, which will facilitate early identification of those learners, together with new comprehensive guidance. Challenge and support actions through local authorities, consortia, national networks of excellence and Estyn will help schools take this work forward.

Further encouraging a culture that recognises and supports high aspirations for all learners, teachers and schools is crucial to the delivery of an education system that is a source of national pride and enjoys public confidence. Deputy Presiding Officer, we must provide rich experiences that broaden horizons and intellectual curiosity for all learners. This is fundamental to our curriculum reforms.

Today, I'm announcing that the Seren network will be expanded. It already makes a hugely positive contribution to raising aspirations, boosting confidence and encouraging post-16 students to be ambitious. The recent evaluation asked that we consider expanding its scope, and I agree with that recommendation. Therefore, from September we will pilot an approach that involves younger learners, before GCSEs. Working across the regional hubs, it will connect like-minded learners from different schools and communities, providing access to leaders and experts across a range of disciplines. Our very brightest students benefit from learning opportunities that will deepen their skills and their knowledge, and the Seren network is well positioned to share and develop effective practice here. For others, the key is widening horizons and raising aspiration, helping young people understand where hard work could take them in terms of future study and onward careers. We will build on Seren’s existing links with leading global universities, and I will make a further announcement on their involvement in the near future.

Finally, and integral to the principles of a self-improving system, we must encourage exploration and innovation. As I mentioned earlier, by providing this focus, we can be a pioneer in pedagogy, policy and research in this area. The investment I’m announcing today will include funding to develop capacity to capture the evidence from our approach, both to support our own developing policy work and also to be recognised as an international innovator in this field.

To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, today’s statement is not simply a matter of supporting a few select learners. Far from it. It has far-reaching system and societal benefits. It is these learners, from all backgrounds, who can be, will be, the public servants, the entrepreneurs, the teachers and scientists who will drive Wales’s future prosperity and success. Getting it right for these learners, and those with the potential to be these learners, means getting it right for everyone. It is a true test of our principles of partnering equity with excellence, and I believe that this comprehensive approach and investment ensures that we can meet that test head on, raising standards and aspirations for all within our system. Thank you.

Can I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement, although, I have to say it's been a long time coming? We've known that we have not been sufficiently stretching our most able and talented pupils for a number of years now. Not only has Estyn confirmed this, but we've had others also confirm it—in particular, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development—and I do believe that the lack of action has, unfortunately, left some people behind. But that said, I do welcome the fact that we have a statement today that there's going to be some additional investment in the Seren network.

Quite obviously, we have a problem here in Wales. We're not doing well enough on the OECD league tables. Our GCSE results last year were the poorest for a decade, in spite of the fact that the arrangements with Qualifications Wales et cetera seek to eliminate the impact of the fact that they were new GCSEs. We know also that we have some problems within the existing Seren network in terms of inconsistency, in terms of different qualification criteria from one Seren hub to the next, and indeed not having equitable access within those Seren hubs or, indeed, across Wales.

I note that you're making £3 million available over a two-year period, but what about beyond those two years? Is this going to be a sustainable thing? You said you want to do some research as well. It's going to take probably more than two years to be able to follow and track these individuals through the education system, and if you're picking up youngsters pre GCSEs and taking them all the way through to the end of their A-levels, that's a four-year period. So, how on earth is simply committing £3 million over a two-year period sufficient to be able to measure the progress of those individuals? We don't have any base data, of course, because the reality is that none of the kids who are currently engaged with the Seren network are being tracked to see where they actually go on from their studies in schools. We have no idea how many of them go on to the best universities in the UK and, indeed, overseas. So, I'd be grateful for an explanation from you as to where the £3 million figure is from, how you've worked out that that is sufficient funding for this network, why you've only committed to funding it to that extent for the next two years, and what precisely you're going to be measuring in terms of the baseline data, so that we can see whether there's been any improvement in order to hold you to account for this.

In addition to that, you talk about equity. We hear a lot in this Chamber about parity of esteem between academic and vocational qualifications. What about putting something in place for high-achieving vocational young people? Why can't we have something similar to get those new engineers through with higher level apprenticeships in our further education system? Why can't we be tracking those as well as the high academic achievers? I don't understand why you aren't announcing anything for them, and I would very much like to see what you're going to do in order to support them too.

So, we need a different approach. I welcome the fact that there are extra resources on the table, but I don't think that this statement answers many of the questions that lots of people have about the current framework and how you're going to make sure that the new framework works.

Can I just also ask you in terms of eligibility criteria very quickly? This is, of course, a big problem with the current Seren hubs and networks. It's very different from one to the next. Are you going to set eligibility criteria so that young people know from the outset what they're expected to achieve in order to access the support from Seren? If so, what is that support going to look like in a tangible sense? Is it schools that are going to be getting extra resources, or is it just simply people getting together now and again, and the occasional meeting for practitioners to attend, or is there going to be some finance attached to those individuals in those schools in order to give them extra support with their education? I don't think that you've said enough today, frankly, Cabinet Secretary, and I would certainly like to know a lot more detail.

If I could deal with the points that Darren has made—Darren, as you well know, I am not satisfied with current Welsh performance in the Programme for International Student Assessment. What a close examination of the PISA results tells us is that one of the reasons we are not doing as well as I would like is because the attainment of our more able and talented pupils in Wales does not compare with the OECD average. That's why we need to push more on this particular agenda. I don't hide away from that. That's one of the reasons why we're bringing forward this additional support.

You ask why am I not able to commit funding for more than two years. Well, if your Government in London could commit to a comprehensive spending review—and there was uncertainty over the overall Welsh Government's budget—I would love to be in a position to be more certain. But I have to say, Darren, with the Westminster Government actually taking money out of the overall education budget, which reflects on our budget here in education terms, it's very difficult to be able to plan more than two years ahead. But I can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. I could sit here and wring my hands and say, 'I can't go beyond two years, therefore I will do nothing', or 'I need more resources, therefore I will do nothing', or we could take charge of this agenda and start to make some progress.

Darren is right to say that there is an inconsistency in approach to Seren. He says that we don't know how many of those pupils have gone on to study at our top universities. There is a reason for that, because it is the students that are sitting their A-levels this summer who are the first complete cohort of Seren support. We do need, I acknowledge, to improve the way in which we track outcomes for Seren, but the Member will be aware of the initial evaluation that has been carried out of the programme that says that incredible progress has been made in a short period of time. It says, for a relatively small amount of money, the programme has been able to lever in, in kind, many, many more resources from partner organisations. We will take on board the recommendations of the initial evaluation of Seren as we develop Seren going forward. I would expect, from this September, a more consistent entry requirement to the Seren programme across the individual networks.

But, Darren, we will always have to have some flexibility within that system. Flexibility, for instance, for a teacher recommendation for a child who perhaps underperforms at GCSEs for a very good reason. We shouldn't have a hard-and-fast rule that says, 'If you didn't get those grades at that particular point, that's it, you're out.' So, we will always have to have an element of flexibility, based on teacher recommendation, on individual students, and recognising, if you can, that from a more deprived background, the ability to do better is harder. So, maybe your A has represented a bigger journey for you than perhaps an A* from a pupil who has had all the advantages. So, we have to have some flexibility in the system that recognises the journey individual cohorts from schools have taken. That's the only fair and equitable way to run the programme. But we can have a more consistent approach, and a more consistent approach to what is available within the programme.

Only yesterday I was at Y Pant School in Rhondda Cynon Taf, talking to sixth formers who have been part of the Seren programme. They said it has been invaluable to them in helping them recognise that they are good enough, that they can compete with students across the rest of the United Kingdom, that there is nothing wrong to aspire to becoming a doctor and to have that dream, and not to think that they have to be self-deprecating about their talents, that they are good enough. They have found it absolutely invaluable. I spoke to one young man who said that he'd been to a meeting with this individual, this history lecturer, who talked about Oxford and Cambridge, talked about what was needed to make a successful application, and I said, 'What are you going to do?', he said, 'I'm applying. Come the autumn, I will be applying to go and read history in Oxford.' And that's what we want. We want to inspire that sense of knowing that we are good enough, our children are good enough, and we need to give them the confidence and not to feel somewhat embarrassed by standing up and saying, 'I am really able at my subjects.'

That's been part of the problem. Too many of our children have not had that confidence to stand up and say, 'I'm really, really good.' Sometimes, our sportspeople and our musicians—they're the heroes in the school. When was the hero in the school the person who excelled at physics or the person who really excelled at computer science and we lauded them too? So, we've got to get better as a nation at being a little less self-deprecating, I think, and standing up when we are excellent and encouraging our children to stand up and say that they are excellent.

The Member asked about vocational qualifications. I'm surprised that he's missed this, but we already have a programme in the FE sector. We already have, working in conjunction with ColegauCymru, a new programme within the FE sector to support excellence in our vocational subjects. We will be co-sponsoring with ColegauCymru later on this year a symposium and conference to be able to share that good practice. So, we already have a programme in the FE sector. Actually, we need to accelerate it in our school systems. So, we have to look at encouraging excellence in all aspects of our education system. This is an area that has not had the attention it has deserved, and if we get this right, we will not only succeed for individuals, we will succeed for our nation.

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement? Certainly, more needs to be done to tackle this agenda. Perhaps I won’t be quite as negative as the Conservative spokesperson, but I do agree with some of the points that he has made—one of them being the fact that we’ve had report after report that’s highlighted weaknesses in this area, and we have, at last, reached a point where there is more specific action being taken.

In relation to further education, I do think that the point that was being made is a valid one. Yes, there is a programme in place, but we are talking here about a programme that goes to schools to promote these opportunities prior to GCSE; therefore, I do think that we need to ensure that this parity of esteem extends down the years into our schools too, and not just when one gets to FE, having made those decisions. Perhaps you could respond further to that point in responding to my questions.

The statement that you’ve given us today emphasises that we need to facilitate the identification of the more able and talented learners at an earlier stage. I could ask, 'How early are we going to go?', because the sooner the better as far as I’m concerned. One of the greatest challenges facing schools—I will go back as far as primary schools here—is differentiating within classrooms, particularly in rural schools where you have a small number of teachers, perhaps, and you have classes that not only have a range of abilities but a range of age groups, from eight to 11, perhaps, so the more able at 11 are in the same learning environment as the less able pupils who are perhaps eight years old. That brings about an exceptional challenge to the workforce and the education system.

My first question, then, is: how do you, as a Government, believe that we can arm our teachers more effectively with the skills, techniques and strategies required to differentiate within classrooms, so that we can start to identify these skills and take advantage of that as soon as possible, because it is a huge challenge? I’m not saying that it’s a direct role for Government to do that—certainly, the consortia are going to be at the heart of it—but I would like to hear what the Government is doing to encourage and promote this, even at the primary level, if we are going to identify, encourage and take full advantage of the opportunities for our more able and talented pupils at the earliest possible stage.

You also refer in your statement to the pupil development grant.

There's a danger that we forget that the PDG isn't just about getting the lowest attaining children from deprived backgrounds up to a certain level—it's about meeting all of those individuals' needs, some of whom, of course, are more able and talented. I think Estyn has said that very few schools are actually using the PDG to target more able and talented pupils. Indeed, the national pupil database impact analysis shows that the gap between those eligible for free school meals and non-free-school-meal pupils attaining the highest grades of A* or A remains large—indeed, it hasn't changed over the past five years—despite, of course, the overall attainment gap at key stage 4 closing.

So, I think the point I'm making here is that, actually, there's more that we can do with existing programmes and initiatives to maximise the opportunities for more able and talented children, let alone then embarking, as we rightly should, on other new initiatives. I'm just wondering what the Government will do to make sure that the PDG is actually being used more effectively in that particular respect than is currently clearly the case, as evidenced by Estyn.

Finally from me, you tell us that there will be a pilot approach from September involving the younger learners before GCSEs. I trust that that will particularly test approaches in relation to provision in rural areas, which I'm sure—I know—you will be passionate about, but also the availability of support through the medium of Welsh, because these are areas that have been highlighted in the individual evaluations previously, and certainly they're ones that I would hope and trust that the Government would want to make sure are met robustly.

Could I thank Llyr for his questions? Can I start by going back to the point about further education? I'm committed to meeting the needs of more able and talented learners within the further education sector as well as in the schools sector. We have for the first time produced guidance tailored to the needs of FE learners. This is not just for those whose ability lies in the more traditional academic subjects who may be doing their A-levels, for instance, in an FE college, but also for those with outstanding vocational and practical skills. Our guidance is designed to reflect the inclusive and diverse ethos of the FE sector. It's never been done before, we've done it, it's out there in the sector and, over the next year, in partnership with CollegesWales, we will continue to do more to strengthen the FE sector support for MAT learners including, as I said to Darren Millar, funding a programme of professional development for practitioners in the FE sector. And we're also working in partnership with them to deliver a conference that will provide the opportunity for colleges to showcase and to learn from each other about how they support more able and talented learners to succeed.

So, this is a first in the FE sector. We've already produced that guidance in that sector, and now we are looking at what we can do in the schools, because, Llyr, you talked about the issue of identification. One of the problems that we have is that what more able and talented looks like in one school is different in another school, so we need to get a universally understood definition of the cohort that we are talking about, and we need new refreshed guidance from Welsh Government to the education sector on what happens then. 

In all schools, actually, we would expect to register a child who is more able and talented, but at the moment, in some cases—not all, because we have some outstanding practitioners—but in some cases that's the end of the process: a child is identified, a box is ticked and then nothing emerges after that particular process, and that's not good enough. Our new definition, our new identification system and our new guidance for schools will push that on, and that will be reinforced by local education authorities, by regional consortia challenge advisers and by Estyn. Simply ticking the box and identifying the child will not be enough; we need then support. 

And Llyr, you're absolutely right: that then comes down to pedagogical approaches within the classroom and, undoubtedly, delivering that in a very small rural school is a challenge, but we have to rise to that challenge because the alternative is just to close those schools. That's the alternative, and I don't want to do that, and that's why we can't see this programme on its own. You're quite right to say that although this is a discrete pot of money for this particular scheme that I'm announcing today, we cannot see it in isolation from resources that are already going into our schools, whether that be the pupil development grant or the rural and small schools grant, which is specifically designed to address some of these challenges of teaching in a rural area. So, we can't see this on its own. It combines with the criteria around the small and rural schools grant, which is to try and address some of these very practical challenges that teachers face without the need to say, 'Well, it can't be done. The only answer is to ship our children in rural areas to larger schools'—something that I don't want to do and something I know that you don't want to do. So, we can't see it in isolation.

The pupil development grant: we have to continue in our determination to see that that money—£91 million in the new financial year—that £91 million is getting to those children who need it. And you're right: some of our more able and talented children are also children who are entitled to free school meals. And sometimes, and that has been evidenced to the committee, the PDG goes towards those less able children, but the challenge for us in working with schools, regional consortia and LEAs is to ensure that that PDG is used in its fullest possible sense.

We need to continue to drive evidence-based approaches in our schools. We know what works. The Sutton Trust has done a huge amount of research into what interventions make the biggest difference for these children, and we have to continue the drive, via our regional consortia, that if a school is not following the Sutton Trust toolkit, if the school is not following tried and tested approaches and evidence, then there has to be a really good reason why that is not the case, and those schools themselves should be carrying out their own action research project within their schools to demonstrate that their approach is actually making a difference. 

But what is absolutely clear to me is that we cannot start young enough. We need to identify these children as early in their educational careers as possible, but also recognising that, for some children, those talents might emerge later on in their schooling. And so, we shouldn't say, 'Right, if you haven't made the grade when you're five years old, that's it.' We don't want to be in that situation. We need to recognise that children reach their milestones in different ways, and that talent may become more evident in different shapes. We shouldn't have a system that is so rigid that we can't take account of the fact that each of our children is very different and their educational journey is different. 

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. We in UKIP Wales welcome your announcement of £3 million in support of Wales's brightest and most talented pupils. It is important to nurture talent and identify who our brightest pupils are at the earliest possible stage. So, because this needs to be done earlier than at sixth-form level it is a good initiative for the Seren network to embark upon targeting younger learners.

Also, I'd like to ask how sustainable you think the £3 million is going to be in achieving your target. How productive is it going to be in the educational system? Do you think also—I think so—that this initiative may not have been necessary if we did have schools that catered for everyone's individual talents and abilities and we did have grammar schools, secondary schools and technical colleges for pupils at quite young ages?

I'm pleased that you said about Y Pant School, because Y Pant School was a school that went in between the grammar school and the secondary school many years ago. So, pupils, if they went to a secondary school at the age of 11, they then had an opportunity at 12 where their talent was identified to achieve a place in Y Pant School or go to the grammar school. So, nobody was missed, really. I thought that that was quite a good system and Y Pant School was a very good school to bring on pupils' abilities and strengths because a one-size policy doesn't fit all and we have to recognise that.

It's good announcing this extra funding that will be specifically targeted for pupils who are earmarked early to go to a leading university. But what are we doing to support our children who aren't academic in the traditional sense of the word, but who are just as talented? What are we doing to support children who aspire to do an apprenticeship and learn a trade? I'm talking about pre GCSE. Wales's brightest and most talented pupils, as you describe, are not just academic, but are those that work hard at what they're good at, who excel in physical education, art or design. So, talent does not necessarily equate to academic ability. I'd like to know what you are going to be doing for these pupils.

One area that may help those who are most academically talented in traditional subjects are sixth term examination papers and special papers. These papers are seen as positives for admission in some subjects in Russell Group universities, such as Cambridge and Warwick. So, Cabinet Secretary, could you outline what improvements the Welsh Government and the Seren network are making to ensure that students receive the very best of preparation if they decide to take such examinations? Thank you.

Can I thank Caroline for her questions? The first evaluation that we've had of the Seren network made a recommendation that we should look to bring Seren earlier into a child's schooling career and I think there are real benefits and the network is well placed to do that. For instance, in choosing GCSE subjects, that can have a profound effect on a student's ability to go on and study things later on, so if we don't get the advice right at the end of year 9, a student may unwittingly cut off particular paths to themselves. So, actually, having that support in earlier, I think, will be beneficial, so we will pilot it. We want to walk before we can run. We are still developing our Seren network programme for the 16-plus learners, but I do think we don't need to wait to get that perfect before we can learn the principles and apply it earlier on in the schooling.

Caroline, I'm not going to rehearse again today why I absolutely reject selection at 11. I reject it. This Government rejects it. All the evidence—I just quoted the Sutton Trust—you know, independent researchers like that tell us that selection is not a way in which we can promote equity and excellence for all students, so I'm going to gloss over that because I'm never going to be convinced of those arguments because the evidence is simply not there to back it up.

However, you are absolutely right that we need to be very open with students about a wide variety of opportunities that can be taken. You will be aware of my remit letter to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, where we are working with HEFCW and further education to develop degree-led apprenticeships. I met a young man yesterday at Y Pant. I think he's in year 8, and he'd been to the University of South Wales and he had seen some activities in the University of South Wales, and I said, 'What do you think?' and he said, 'Well, I think I might go to university now, but I don't know because I might do an apprenticeship.' And I said, 'Actually, by the time you get there, we won't make you choose, because you will be able to do both. You will be able to gain a very practical, high-level apprenticeship, and you will do that at a higher education institute, as we develop our degree-level apprenticeships. You won't have to choose.' I think that's what we need to do, and we are funding and working with HEFCW to develop those programmes in conjunction with the FE sector. 

You're absolutely right: we need to ensure that those children who are aspiring to go to some of our universities but in particular aspiring to do certain courses, especially around medicine, are given advice on what kind of exams and what kind of aptitude tests they need to sit alongside their A-levels. That's part of the job that the Seren network has. It has specific streams for people looking, for instance, to go into medicine or go into veterinary science, and they get very specific advice about what they need to do alongside their A-levels to give them the chance of getting into those places. That's the job of the network. And that's the difference that I'm told that Seren is making. A teacher said to me yesterday, 'Seren is allowing us to give our children what those people who went to private schools always had, that extra leg up, that inside advice, that support to make those applications be successful applications', and we are now doing that for all of our children.

Thank you. Finally, Mark Reckless. 

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, I'm especially interested in the Seren network to support able and talented learners into university, as you may be aware from my volume of written questions on the—[Interruption.] Thank you.

First, I'd like to ask if you've made any assessment of the summer camps run by some leading universities, including their cost-effectiveness. For example, I note the Yale camp costs us £2,000 per pupil, and that's coming out of the existing Seren budget. Second, through discussions I've had with the sector, including key admissions officers, there's a concern that some schools are cautious about putting in the necessary effort to engage with the Seren network as they fear their Estyn rating could suffer if teacher time is taken from other areas where they're rated by Estyn. Would it be possible as part of your commitment to expanding and bolstering the Seren network to have Estyn inspections consider engagement with the Seren network and its objectives?

Finally, could the Seren network do more in training and improving teachers to support pupils into elite universities? Whilst there are some workshops run for teachers already, I have heard that they've—or at least some of them—been poorly attended, with Seren unable to cover the costs of teachers' attendance, particularly the supply costs. If we're able to give people exposure to some of the evidence the Sutton Trust has found, I think that would be particularly valuable. If we are, as you're saying, to become world leaders in pedagogy, do you agree that this is an issue that needs to be addressed and resolved? 

Thank you, Mark. And I really do welcome—and I mean this sincerely—your interest in this programme. I know this is a particular area that you are keen to see develop and work well for Welsh students, and I welcome the extra scrutiny, which keeps me on my toes to make sure I'm in a position to answer your questions.

We are looking at the effectiveness of all the interventions, and, as we respond to the initial evaluation into Seren, we will be really asking the question: what activities get the greatest return? Mark gives the example of the Yale summer school. Well, personally, I'm delighted that, this summer, a number of Welsh students will have the opportunity to go to the Yale summer school. What an amazing opportunity that is for those young people—what an amazing thing to inspire them, to be able to write on their applications and their CVs in years to come—but we will need to understand whether that is an effective intervention and use of that money. But I want to expose Welsh students to the very best, whether that be in Wales, whether that be in Oxford or Cambridge, or whether that be around the world. And I'm delighted—I'm really jealous; I'd love to go to the Yale summer school this summer.

You're right about Estyn and the crucial role Estyn plays and how Estyn influences behaviour within our school system. I am very aware—very aware—that I can say something in this Chamber, but, if schools think that Estyn are going to mark them down, they will ignore it and they will do what they think Estyn will require them to do. So, we need a joined-up approach from Estyn and the regional consortia, who, of course, are part of the evaluation that comes up with the schools categorisation model, that we are all working in a line and clear that, actually, teacher time spent on this should not be regarded as a detriment to something else going on in the school. The inspection regime, of course, is a matter for them as independent of the Government, but I will be sure to raise it when I next meet, in one of my regular meetings, with the chief inspector because I'm aware that what Estyn does does, indeed, drive behaviour within individual schools.

The roles of teachers are absolutely crucial in being realistic cheerleaders for their students, and, therefore, they themselves need to be equipped, and one of the things we do know: where there are teachers who are less experienced in the application processes for Oxford or Cambridge or for some of our top universities, then we don't see children making that transition. So, training teachers and giving them the information is absolutely crucial and I promise, as we look at our guidance and the development of the Seren network, we'll ensure that we are breaking down any barriers that stop teachers from participating fully in the opportunities that are available, because they are crucial in supporting that child through that process and helping them make decisions and they themselves need to have the confidence that they know what they're doing, they know what works.

As I said, it's quite surprising that, if you look at international research, more able and talented pedagogy isn't something that there is a great deal about and I think this gives us in Wales a real opportunity to get on the front foot and actually develop our skills and expertise in this area, where there is a combination of action in our schools, but that is backed up by research so we can become leaders in filling that gap that there is at the moment about really, really intensive research in this area about what works.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.