A statement now by the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, and I call on the Chair to make a statement—Jayne Bryant. 

Diolch, Llywydd. As Assembly Members will be aware, in November 2017, the Llywydd, leaders of party groups and I, as Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, issued a joint statement. We set out a commitment to ensure that inappropriate behaviour has no place at the National Assembly for Wales, and a desire to reassure everyone who works here, and those who visit us, that they will be free from any form of harassment. Whether it's here in the Senedd, a constituency office, or out in the community, everyone should feel as though they are treated with respect as they encounter representatives of this organisation. 

The joint statement set out a number of actions intended to ensure the Assembly is an inclusive organisation, free from intimidation and harassment. These actions included the development of a dignity and respect policy, the establishment of a confidential complaints referral service, and ensuring the complaints procedure is clear and consistent. Work is well under way, and a dignity and respect policy is due to be laid before the Assembly next month. 

The Standards of Conduct Committee agreed to undertake a more wide-ranging inquiry into creating the right culture at the Assembly. We believe that the Assembly must set an example and provide clear and strong leadership on the type of workplace culture we would like to see within Wales. We're considering existing procedures around complaints involving Assembly Members to ensure that they are appropriate and clear. Individuals must feel able to come forward with confidence about any concern regarding inappropriate behaviour.

We've held an open consultation, which aimed to find out whether the current complaints procedure is easily understandable and accessible, and whether there are any barriers to people raising concerns about the behaviour of anyone associated with the National Assembly for Wales. Although the consultation is now formally closed, people are always encouraged to come forward with suggestions on how to improve the process or with any concerns they may have. We're currently taking evidence from groups and individuals who have agreed to talk to the committee about their experiences. And I would like to put on record my thanks to those who have offered their views to the committee during the last few months. I'm particularly grateful to those who have agreed to speak to us. Without understanding the experiences of others it's very difficult to identify the challenges within the Assembly and ascertain precisely how the culture can be improved. As a committee, we're determined that these views will be respected and reflected in the reporting stage. 

While we're still undertaking our inquiry, one of the messages we've heard to date is that better communication and clarity around the complaints procedure would help increase confidence in the system. Building on existing provisions within the Assembly Member code of conduct, the new dignity and respect policy will help to make it explicitly clear that inappropriate behaviour has no place in this Assembly. And I'm sure that Members will agree it's important that inappropriate behaviour must be called out. We're all responsible for ensuring we do not stand by and let things happen. 

I'd also like to take this opportunity to re-emphasise that the National Assembly for Wales has a completely independent commissioner for standards, who impartially examines any concern or complaint raised with him. He can be contacted via phone, email or in writing and he'll always try to help, either by dealing directly with concerns or signposting in the right direction. A helpline has been set up for those unsure whether the commissioner is the most appropriate avenue for complaint. The number is on the Assembly website and posters around the estate. If Members and staff want to discuss any issue regarding the complaints procedure with the commissioner, he will be available in the Senedd during Plenary next Tuesday. In addition to the commissioner, members of the standards committee are also available to discuss any concerns you may have regarding the complaints procedure, and a member of the committee will also be available during Plenary next Tuesday.

It takes a huge amount of commitment, time, persistence to achieve meaningful cultural change. Today I have set out the early stages of the process, ensuring that the National Assembly for Wales fulfils its aims to be an institution that enables and empowers people. I'm confident this aim is shared by all of us here in the Chamber and that everybody will be willing to play their part in making sure this is achieved. Diolch.

As the Chair of the committee has said, it's absolutely crucial that the Assembly promotes a culture of dignity and respect for all its Members and staff so that anyone who has a complaint or grievance against another person has the opportunity to declare it in a safe and secure environment. Therefore, I'm pleased to be a member of the standards committee for this inquiry and work with Members across the political spectrum to implement a system that works for everyone involved with the Assembly.

It's pretty evident from the evidence received to the consultation that people feel that the current system needs improving and that the Assembly needs to change the way that it handles complaints and allegations in the future. Of course, the committee's aware of the work done by the UK parliamentary working group on this matter, and so my first question to the Chair is whether she will agree with me that, whilst we can look at the work of other Parliaments, it's crucial that we develop a system that is bespoke to the Assembly and responds to its needs rather than just being a carbon copy of actions taken from other legislatures.

Of course, any new system must also sit alongside political party processes and those systems must complement, not conflict with one another and it's evident from the evidence that we've already heard that this is a particular concern for some stakeholders. Therefore, perhaps the Chair can tell us whether she intends for us, as a committee, to engage with political party representatives, either through evidence sessions or through written correspondence, to gauge their views on how any new system can work with their current party complaints processes.

The evidence that the committee has received indicates the need to implement a whole new change of culture at the Assembly. Perhaps there's scope here to extend this thinking by delivering training to members of staff to help better understand and prevent harassment from taking place in the workplace. The Equality and Human Rights Commission rightly raised that ongoing discussion in the workplace is one of the steps that can be taken to prevent harassment and therefore any new system must be flexible and under constant monitoring to ensure its continued effectiveness. Therefore, I believe that there is scope here for the Assembly to look at training modules for members and staff in this area, and I wonder if the Chair would agree with me that this is something that could also be rolled out as well as introducing this as part of any induction processes for members and staff as well as providing ongoing communication around any new harassment policies.

Naturally, any new system must keep anonymity at the centre of it in order to protect all individuals concerned and so I'd be grateful if the Chair could perhaps share her initial thoughts on the way in which that anonymity can actually be protected.

Sadly, we now live in a world that is dominated by social media. Members are all too aware of instances of individuals being abused on social media. Indeed, the committee has already heard how harassment on social media is quite quickly becoming the norm, and so any new system or new approach must also include dealing with inappropriate behaviour online. I’m sure the Chair would agree with me that the scale of the problem is quite alarming and so I'd be grateful if she could share her initial thoughts on how we, as a committee, can start dealing with inappropriate behaviour online.

Finally, Llywydd, I'd like to briefly touch on the monitoring of any new policies and procedures and encourage the Chair to ensure that this is fully considered throughout the inquiry. It’s my view that any new system is only as good as its enforcement, and so it's crucial that we ensure the robustness of new policies by monitoring them effectively, and so perhaps the Chair could also share her views on how any new system could be monitored in the future. Therefore, in closing, Llywydd, can I thank the Chair for her statement this afternoon? And I agree with her that it takes commitment, time and persistence to achieve meaningful cultural change. I really can't understate how important this inquiry is, and I look forward to working with the Chair and the other Members of the inquiry to help deliver a system that fosters a much more inclusive workplace, where people are not deterred from coming forward with complaints and where all individuals involved are protected throughout the investigation process. Diolch.

Thank you. I'm very grateful for the comments that you've made. I know that I'm lucky to be the Chair of a committee that's taken on a piece of work that's equally as keen to make sure that we're doing something to address and make sure we've got the right culture that exists, not just for now but in the future. You've made some very important points there, Paul.

I think on your first point about looking at other institutions, we're very much aware of what's happened in the Westminster Government and their new plans. I think it is important to look at similarities and to learn from other institutions as well as organisations, but I do agree that it's important that we have a bespoke system. We're all coming from different times, different perspectives, different issues, but I think where there is similarity, it's important to look to those; but we should be looking to see what we've got here in Wales and how we can really become the leaders and a beacon for the future, to make sure that we've got the right culture and that people want to not just work here but to be Members here as well.

The commissioner is working as well on doing a piece of work with political parties, so that's a piece of work outside of the standards committee. I know that the commissioner has been speaking with other party groups. I'm not sure if they've all been completed yet. I think there are maybe one or two parties that he's left to deal with, but I know that piece of work is ongoing. Because it is important that we're looking at all the processes and the procedures that are going on so that we're not duplicating. I know that's something that we should be doing.

No member of staff expects to make a complaint about an Assembly Member when they start the job. Nobody in any job expects to make that complaint. I did actually ask my staff if they knew how to make a complaint against me in the future, and they told me the colour of the leaflet that they had on their induction day but they weren't able to put their hands on it. So, I think having an induction is really important and making sure that staff are aware and up to speed about how they can make a complaint in the future, but I think that needs to be ongoing as well. It needs to be very clear on the website. We've got the posters up now with the phone number and there is a dedicated e-mail as well. But I think we have to make sure that it's not just at the start we're letting people know, but that we're continually letting people know how they can make a complaint if they need to. But you're quite right; we should be looking at prevention, really. This is something that, as you say, came out loud and clear in our evidence last week. I think we have to really be looking to see how we can stop and make sure there isn't any inappropriate behaviour. We need to be working towards that aim, rather than how we deal with it.

You mentioned online abuse. I've been very worried about that myself. I see it regularly on Twitter and social media, Facebook and all these other things. I think that that is something that we have to be aware of, have to look at, and how we all treat each other, because some of the abuse online—if we're looking to make sure that people feel empowered and able to come forward, I'm not really sure how social media is actually helping anybody to come forward at the moment. So, that's pretty alarming.

As you say, on monitoring, this piece of work that we're doing, the committee's doing, is not the end. This piece of work, the inquiry, when we report—we have to keep a watching brief on this. Because nothing is going to be solved by one inquiry. We need to be making these steps, putting the procedures in place, but we really must be keeping a watching brief on that, and also perhaps having a wider conversation with our partners. You've mentioned that some people are doing some great work at the moment and I think we need to look to them as well.

May I thank the committee Chair for her statement? In listening to the statement, I think it’s become clear that there are three tasks among the many other tasks that we need to deliver here that we should be mainly focused on. First of all, we do need to create a better understanding within this institution of the institution’s expectations in terms of behaviour among Members and staff, and the broader Assembly family. We need to create greater clarity too, I think, among the public, particularly on what we believe is acceptable and what is unacceptable in terms of behaviours. Also, there is an entirely practical job of work to be done: we need to raise far more awareness of the processes in existence to make a complaint, to secure justice for victims and to hold offenders to account.

There is one thing highlighted in the fact that I used the word ‘processes’—the plural—and this has already been raised in the evidence sessions that the committee has had in this inquiry. We do have a code of conduct for Assembly Members, but we also have a different code of conduct for Ministers, and there are important questions to be asked in that regard. Are the expectations of those two codes in alignment? Is there consistency in terms of what is acceptable and isn’t acceptable in the AM codes and the ministerial code? And of course, there are two different processes for making complaints.

Much of this may be very clear to us because we are living among it every day, but put yourself in the shoes of a member of the public and I don’t think that this situation is quite as clear as perhaps we would want. One could approach the standards commissioner, and the standards commissioner may explain, ‘Well, no, you have to take your complaint to the office of the First Minister’. I have every confidence that the commissioner’s office would do that in an appropriate and sensitive way, but it’s another step and it’s another hoop that that individual has to jump through. It’s these factors that make it more difficult for these individuals and make it less likely that these individuals will proceed with their complaints, at a time, of course, when they are vulnerable and they are lacking in confidence. We have to make these processes as accessible and as simple as possible.

Don’t forget, of course, that the AM code is relevant to Assembly Members not only in our professional lives but in our private lives. So, why not encompass the ministerial roles within that single code, and give the responsibility to the independent commissioner for standards to scrutinise that and to make recommendations in the context of Assembly Members to the standards committee and in the ministerial context to the First Minister? So, may I ask: wouldn’t it be better, in terms of meeting the laudable aims that you’ve listed in your statement—in terms of having a clear and consistent process that’s easily understood and that is accessible—wouldn’t having a single process for all Assembly Members in all capacities be more true to those principles, rather than having two separate systems as we currently have, never mind the regimes of the political parties, as we’ve already heard reference to?

There are a number of other questions that have already been raised. Many feel that there is inconsistency in the right to appeal within the current system, where an Assembly Member can appeal against an adjudication but a complainant can’t. The limit of 12 months to make complaints is also something that I think needs to be questioned, because many people who bring complaints forward don’t feel that they’re able to do that or aren’t able to do that for a longer period of time, perhaps, than that 12-month period, and we have to be sensitive to that too.

So, there are many factors that do need to be taken into account, and I know that the standards committee will look at all of these. But, of course, it all comes to the central point of the statement, namely that we need a broader culture change, as you said, and that won’t happen as a result of one inquiry. Everyone recognises and acknowledges that there isn’t a single solution to this. There’s a great deal that must happen in order to tackle all of these issues. Of course, we need broader conversations on some of these important areas that we are covering here—conversations within the institution, yes, but we need conversations throughout society too. I would like to conclude by asking the Chair what role she feels that we as Assembly Members have, and the standards committee specifically, perhaps, in leading that process to ensure that those important conversations do happen.

Diolch, Llyr. Again, you've made some very significant points, and some of the points were raised at the committee meeting last week, so I'm glad you're able to do that today. 

In terms of your comments on the ministerial code, obviously, people understand that the ministerial code is not in our remit or our gift to change, but comments you've raised today have been made in our meeting and I'm sure will be raised in future meetings. 

In terms of the points you put about wider societal issues, that is exactly right. We've also seen that this is not an issue that's just confined to politics. It is important, though, that we do show leadership here and I'm really keen that the Assembly—and I'm sure all Members here are keen—that we're really driving forward on progress and making sure that we are a beacon that can be held up as an example. This is our chance to do our best and get these processes right. That's why it's really important that we're doing that, but it can't be just the end of the conversation as you say. It's really important that we're always reassessing and asking people for their views. Is the process right? Are people feeling they can come forward? We should be looking to make sure, as Paul said earlier, that we're doing that preventative role and we're trying to make sure that this Assembly is seen as a beacon, really. So, I'm really keen that we do that. But the points that you raise are very welcome, and thanks for doing that, Llyr. 

Thanks to the Chair for her statement this afternoon. I'd also like to thank the committee staff for helping to arrange the inquiry and the witnesses that have so far appeared before us. I think we're all in broad agreement that we want the Assembly to be a welcoming environment for everyone who wants to work here. That includes people of different genders, of different ethnicities and different sexual orientations. In the UKIP group, we have had a wide variety of people working for us and hopefully our group room and the Members' offices have been and still are a welcoming working environment for them.

Of course, we recognise that issues can arise. Problems can rear their heads in the relationships between people who work at the Assembly and it's crucial that there is a clear path for people who feel that they are being harassed, victimised, persecuted, bullied or simply intimidated. There has to be a clear guideline of how to proceed with a complaint. And there has to be certainty in the mind of the complainant that the complaint will be dealt with robustly and that the making of the complaint won't have any adverse effect on the complainant's career.

There also needs to be clarity over processes and I think the previous two speakers have raised several issues over that. Paul Davies brought in the aspect that most AMs are also members of political parties, so to some extent you have to bring the political parties on board and their processes have to dovetail with any Assembly process. So, I was glad to hear that the commissioner is working with the different parties. Hopefully we'll soon hear the outcome of that.

Llyr raised the other very relevant point that there is a danger of different parallel processes creating confusion. For instance, you've got the political parties, which can carry out their own investigation, you have the Assembly investigation, and then, of course, the point that Llyr mentioned: if the AM is also a Minister, you've also got the ministerial code. I think it can get confusing with all of these different processes. Now, I know that you just stated that the ministerial code isn't in our remit as the standards committee, so I wonder if you think that does pose a problem in our efforts to get one clear and transparent code for the Assembly. Is there a case that, in some sense, our policy is going to have to encompass in some aspects the ministerial code and dovetail with that?

Thank you for your points, Gareth. I appreciate you were following on from the points of Paul and Llyr. I think the issue you raised about the ministerial code is again something you raised last week as well, so I'm sure that that will come up, but as I said, we have to be mindful that it's beyond our remit in terms of what we can change, but obviously we have to look at all of these issues when people like yourself raise them. 

It is important that there's a clear path, as you say. I think the important point is that the person who is the complainant is in control of those processes as well, because it is important that they know where they want to go with it, rather than just having that decision made for them. I think it is important that people are signposted in the right way, and hopefully if there are people who feel unsure about coming forward, there is this phone number now at the moment. Obviously, this is just an interim measure—whether we extend that, the committee's yet to report on that. Obviously, we're still in the middle of our inquiry so there are lots of things we can look at, but we can have a debate on that when our inquiry reports. 

Can I thank the Chair of the standards committee for her statement and, indeed, thank the Llywydd and all four leaders for their update statement on dignity and respect, which was published on 16 February. I also very much welcome the fact that this is being brought forward on a cross-party basis. As Paul Davies has said, it's fundamental that it is done like that if we're to make progress. I very much welcome all the statements made by, and questions from, the members of the standards committee this afternoon. I look forward to the formal debate on the dignity and respect policy. Can you give us any more information on when that's likely to take place? This will be, of course, a debate on your dignity and respect statement, and I hope that we will all, as was said in the update statement—that's an opportunity for us all in this Chamber to vote on that.

Also, I do welcome the fact that you see this inquiry as an ongoing inquiry, although you have a closing date. Would you confirm that this will be open—this inquiry—an ongoing inquiry, even beyond the debate, so that people can feel confident to come forward at any stage? I think you mentioned that you've taken evidence from key organisations, a range of organisations. Does that include key equality organisations, and are you likely to take any further evidence of that kind? I think the issue of managing confidentiality, as has been mentioned, is absolutely critical. People have got to trust that confidentiality—even responding to points you've made about the role and access to the Standards Commissioner's confidential helplines. Those are processes that people really have got to be confident in. I think Paul Davies's comment about monitoring all of this is crucial.

Can I also just finally welcome something that was said yesterday by Siân Gwenllian in response to the International Women's Day statement, where she—I think I've got this right, Siân—called for a national conversation on sexual harassment? And I think we need to be open to considering those kinds of proposals. Do you agree that all of us have a responsibility to respond to your statement today and to the respect and dignity policy as it's developed?

It does strike me that International Women's Day statements and events—and we've had quite a few this week—can help to create the right culture and a culture in this Assembly, but they cannot be reserved for weeks and days like this. It has to be every day and every week of the year in this Assembly to make this change.

Thank you very much for your comments, and I'm very grateful to you for putting those on the record today. The respect and dignity policy is due to be debated, as I said, in the first week back after the Easter recess, so that will give us all an opportunity to vote on that policy. So, it's still in the consultation period at the moment, but we hope that that will be in the first week back after recess.

The committee members are all willing to speak to anybody. You know, we're here; we're going to be doing that next Tuesday, and we can do that on a regular basis. So, if people do have any questions or comments, and they'd like to share that with us—and obviously staff as well—to ask us about the process, they are very welcome to approach us, specifically next Tuesday or when we do it again in the future or any time. I believe that the Standards Commissioner will also be doing regular drop-ins for members and staff. So, hopefully that will help to make sure that people are understanding of the process.

We took formal evidence in committee last week from, as you said, certain equality organisations, like the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Stonewall, Chwarae Teg, Welsh Women's Aid, and we did write out to as many of those organisations as possible to take part. It was really important to hear from them and to also hear the great work that they're doing. We should share that work and we should do that much better sometimes.

So, we are really doing everything we can, and please—I put out a plea, really, that, while this formal consultation has closed, we are still willing and ready to hear any evidence from anybody. You know, all the comments that you've raised today—this is now on the record and we can take that forward as part of our inquiry as well. So, we're very glad for anybody to get in touch with us about how they see the process could be improved or how it will work in the future.

Your point about the wider public debate—that's crucial. We can't just be having this here. We've got be talking wider, and we have to be making sure that this isn't just one day, or once a year—. You know, we really need to be talking about it as often as possible and making sure that that conversation is had, and I would be very glad to support Siân Gwenllian's suggestion of a national conversation on this, because I think the more times we talk about it, the more times we raise it, the better. So, anything, as a committee, that we can do, I'm sure we'd be very keen to help on that, and how we can drive that forward—we could have those discussions as well. 

Thank you very much, Jayne, for your statement today, and I look forward to the debate after the Easter recess. This has been such an important topic, not just for the credibility and integrity of this place, but other Parliaments and other public institutions as well, because if we can't be a beacon in this, I mean, you have to ask what we're for, in a way.

Just a couple of questions I wanted to raise with you. The first is: I don't think we should flinch away from this difference between the ministerial code and Assembly Member code. I don't want to reiterate what Llyr said, but, of course, every member of the Government is also an Assembly Member, and it can be confusing for an individual to know which of those two paths they should be taking. So, while I'm not suggesting for a second we interfere in the ministerial code, is there any place in our code that says, 'If your complaint arises in these circumstances'—so it doesn't define the complaint itself—'then, really, you should be looking at the ministerial code'? I appreciate that anyone can signpost to anywhere, but in this particular circumstance, where it can be one individual with two hats, I think there's a place, perhaps, in our code, for saying, actually, 'Go there if this is the circumstance in which your complaint arose.' 

The second is, and you mentioned it in your statement: this policy is to prevent intimidation and harassment, and while many of us will have a fairly solid idea of what that might look like, even though we'd feel uncomfortable about reporting it, I'm hoping you can give me some reassurance today that you will also include in this definition this kind of repeated behaviour of tiny actions, which in and of themselves make it very difficult for somebody to complain. They either think they're being silly, but over a period of time, it can result in an individual becoming unhappy at work, perhaps feeling uncomfortable or unsure about their position. I think you know the type of thing I'm talking about—it's very difficult to define, and it's exactly the type of thing you'd feel daft about going to your boss about because you wouldn't have the evidence to support it. I don't know if you want to call it a pattern of behaviour, but if that can be incorporated somehow, I think it would cover a lot of situations, which, at the moment, can't see the light of day because it's very difficult for an individual to find a point on the ladder, if you like, at which they can take their first step. Thank you. 

Thank you very much for your comments, Suzy. The point on the ministerial code: I'm glad you've said it again. You know, it has been raised in our committee, and I'm sure we will be looking at that with the rest of the evidence when we have it—you know, the points that have been raised on that. I'm really glad you mentioned repeat behaviour, because that is something that has been raised already, again, with people last week, and I think it's something, as you say—. You know, how can you tackle things that might be quite small and difficult to report and you might think, maybe, 'Is it right that I do this?' But I think that's something we need to look at because repeat behavioural patterns over years can have—not just to one person, but to many other people—significant impact. But like I said, I'm really glad you were able to speak today, and as to your comments, we'll take them on board in terms of our committee inquiry as well. Thank you.

Thank you to the Chair of the committee, and thank you to all the committee members for the work that you're doing on our behalf here as Members. Diolch yn fawr.