The next item is the debate on the general principles of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill. I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee to move the motion. Simon Thomas.

Motion NDM6696 Simon Thomas

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.83:

Agrees to the general principles of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. First of all, I’d like to thank the members of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their detailed consideration of the Bill at Stage 1. I'd also like to thank everyone who has contributed to the various consultations and debates that we have had whilst drafting and developing the Bill.

Before I move on to talk about the recommendations in the report, I think it's important to remind Members why the Finance Committee believes that this Bill is needed. The public in Wales needs to have confidence in the ombudsman to investigate when individuals believe that they have suffered an injustice or hardship through maladministration or service delivery. It's more important than ever that public services deliver for the people of Wales and that the ombudsman is empowered to ensure that our services are citizen-centred.

The Bill extends the ombudsman’s powers in four main areas. We believe that the ability to undertake own-initiative powers is important, and has the potential to secure significant benefits. Allowing the ombudsman to accept oral complaints will improve social justice and equal opportunities. The investigation of matters relating to private health services will enable the ombudsman to explore a complaint in its entirety, following the citizen and not the sector. And, finally, complaints handling procedures could lead to a better service for individuals and would have the scope to improve services as a result of learning from best practice.

The Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee has made 19 recommendations, and I'm able to accept every one apart from one of these recommendations. I am very pleased to see that the committee has recommended that the Assembly agree to the general principles of the Bill and I very much hope that Members will support that decision this afternoon. In responding to the report, I will deal with the main themes stemming from it.

I would like to start with recommendation 10, which requests that a revised explanatory memorandum and regulatory impact assessment are published before Stage 2, taking account of the committee’s recommendations. This is the only recommendation that I'm not able to accept. The Standing Orders of the Assembly provide a mechanism for revising the explanatory memorandum after Stage 2 proceedings and this has become standard practice. Should this Bill proceed further, I would be very happy to publish a revised explanatory memorandum after Stage 2, taking account of any amendments that have been made to the Bill. For this reason, I do not feel it would be appropriate to accept this recommendation. However, I'm more than happy to consider whether more robust evidence is now available and to assess whether changes are needed to cost estimates in light of that, and I will provide the committee with written updates as this work progresses.

In the Auditor General for Wales’s response to the committee’s consultation on the Bill, he raised a number of concerns relating to his functions. Recommendations 7, 8, 9 and 18 deal with these and I am happy to make the necessary changes to the Bill to deal with these concerns. These will ensure confidentiality and will safeguard the auditor from defamation claims. The Bill reiterates the general requirement for the auditor to lay before the Assembly a certified copy of the ombudsman's accounts within four months. The request to change this, in recommendation 9, will need to be considered in the context of the committee's wider work on this recommendation.

The ombudsman doesn't come under the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. Currently, we have a bilingual ombudsman who has an office with a bilingual ethos, and we need to ensure that this continues in the future. Therefore, I have accepted recommendation 6 and I will, in consultation with others, such as the Welsh Language Commissioner, be considering how best this can be achieved.

A number of recommendations deal with the update of the RIA. These are recommendations 11 to 17 and 19. I am happy to accept all of these recommendations. I’ve said previously to the committee that I welcomed its decision to commission an expert adviser to report on the financial implications of the Bill. I am pleased to note that the expert adviser was supportive of the extension of the powers of the ombudsman in the four main areas. Essentially, these recommendations deal with potential costs stemming from the Bill, recommending that more work is done to show the range of those costs.

For example, in terms of recommendations 11 and 12, the figures included in the assessment reflect evidence received from the ombudsman on costs. However, I am more than willing to reconsider the levels of the estimates and to revise the assessment if needed. I think it is worth noting that any variance in this context would decrease the general costs of the Bill.

Recommendations 14 and 15 deal with costs related to oral complaints. I think it is worth noting that the ombudsman has discretion at present to accept oral complaints under the 2005 Act. Therefore, not all oral complaints will result in an additional workload for the ombudsman, but I'm willing to consider further analysis of 40 per cent of complaints being made orally. 

Recommendation 17 concerns an important part of the Bill that deals with investigating a public and private care pathway provision. I will be undertaking further consultation on this to seek further information.

I am also content to ensure that the RIA ultimately complies with guidance in the HM Treasury Green Book, which is recommendation 19.

It is not an intention in the Bill to cut across other statutory obligations. Recommendations 2, 3 and 5 show that members of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee are concerned about the potential danger of a duplication of work by the ombudsman and other regulators. I hope that I was able to give assurance to the committee about the difference between the role of the ombudsman and of other regulators, and, even though they can look at the same range of matters, they look at them from two completely different points of view. The arrangements within the Bill reflect those that are currently in the 2005 Act, and go further, if truth be told, to enable further collaboration. However, I am happy to accept recommendations 2, 3 and 5 to ensure good collaboration, to maintain appropriate records and to give appropriate consideration to other obligations stemming from the law.

I'd like to talk briefly about the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee's report and thank the members of that committee for their consideration of the Bill. I am very pleased the committee has endorsed the approach that we have taken with this Bill in producing a consolidated piece of legislation that is available bilingually. You should remember that the 2005 Act was made in the House of Commons, and was made in English alone. I am also pleased that the committee is content with the balance between what is included on the face of the Bill and what is left to subordinate legislation. This balance has emerged from the 2005 Act, and is based upon the consultation on the draft Bill. The parts of the original Act already in force have been effective and worked well over the past 13 years.

I am happy to accept the recommendation made by the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, subject to the necessary discussions with the Welsh Government, as this provision relates to the potential powers of the Welsh Ministers under the Bill.

I very much look forward to hearing what Plenary has to say on this Bill and on the reports, and, of course, to respond to the debate in due course. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you. Can I call on the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, John Griffiths?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to speak in this debate as Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and to outline our findings from our scrutiny of the Bill. As the Bill was introduced by the Finance Committee, we also conducted the financial scrutiny alongside our general scrutiny. I would like to thank everyone who contributed to that scrutiny, those who gave written and oral evidence, and, in particular, members of the public who either responded to the written consultation or completed our online survey.

Our scrutiny focused on the provisions within the Bill where the most substantial changes to the ombudsman’s powers are being proposed, as outlined by the Member in charge in introducing this debate: so, enabling the conducting of own-initiative investigations, providing greater flexibility as to how complaints can be made, allowing the investigation of complaints that include both a private and public healthcare element, and giving the ombudsman powers to set model complaints procedures for listed authorities. Our scrutiny also touched on other aspects of the Bill, including Welsh language requirements.

In total, we made 19 recommendations, most of which are focused on elements of the regulatory impact assessment, and I very much welcome the correspondence from the Member in charge and the comments made earlier regarding acceptance of 18 of those recommendations.

Dirprwy Lywydd, there was clear and broad support for this Bill, although not unanimous. We heard some concerns from stakeholders. Though supportive of the general principles, they raised issues around the implementation and operation of some of the provisions within the legislation. These issues included creating additional complexity in an already crowded regulatory framework, and the financial impact on public authorities, who, of course, are already managing a difficult financial climate. But, notwithstanding these concerns, the evidence we received supported the assertions made in the explanatory memorandum and by the Member in charge that the Bill will improve social justice, protect the most vulnerable, and drive improvements in complaints handling, and, more broadly, public services. We were therefore happy to recommend that the Assembly agrees to the general principles of the Bill.

I will now move on to some of the specific provisions, starting with sections 4 and 5. These sections provide the ombudsman with powers to undertake own-initiative investigations without the need for a complaint to be submitted by a member of the public.      

We heard from the Member in charge, the current ombudsman, and his counterparts in Northern Ireland and Scotland, that this was a critical tool in the ombudsman’s toolkit. It is also one that is available to most of their counterparts across the world. We noted the concerns raised by stakeholders about creating additional complexity in that already crowded regulatory framework, but the Member in charge responded to these concerns by reminding us of the difference in roles and approach between regulators and an ombudsman. It is the ombudsman who approaches concerns from a citizen perspective, and we found that a compelling argument. We support, then, this extension of the ombudsman’s powers. We made only one recommendation in relation to these provisions, which is to place an additional duty on the ombudsman to consult with regulators before embarking on an own-initiative investigation, and I am pleased that the Member in charge has accepted this recommendation.

Moving on to the provisions on making and referral of complaints to the ombudsman, the Bill seeks to remove restrictions on how complaints can be made or referred. Currently, oral complaints can only be made at the ombudsman’s discretion. We heard clear evidence that this can make it more difficult for the most vulnerable to access the ombudsman’s services. While we have focused on oral complaints, we noted that the Bill’s provisions will enable the ombudsman to adapt in the future and accept complaints in any format they feel is appropriate. This helps futureproof the legislation and will allow the ombudsman to adapt to any technological changes. We believe these provisions will improve access to the ombudsman’s services, and therefore only made one recommendation in relation to these provisions. Recommendation 3 calls for amendments to be brought forward to place a requirement on the ombudsman to maintain a register of all complaints, not just oral complaints, and, again, I am pleased that the Member in charge has accepted this recommendation. We also called on the ombudsman to reflect on the evidence we received when developing any guidance. If this Bill is passed, there will be an issue, and we will monitor, during our ongoing scrutiny of the ombudsman, progress on these matters.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Part 4 of the Bill introduces powers for the ombudsman to set complaints handling procedures. This was one of the elements of the Bill that generated the most debate from stakeholders. In particular, we heard concerns about how model procedures set by the ombudsman would interact with already existing complaints handling procedures. Much of this discussion centred on the 'Putting Things Right' regulations within the national health service. There was concern that the definition of enactments within the Bill would not cover these regulations, and while we noted all these concerns, we believe that it is totally appropriate for the ombudsman to have a role in setting complaints handling procedures. We believe that this will help lead to improvements in complaints handling and, hopefully, improvements in public services. We were encouraged by the example in Scotland, where similar powers have been given to the Scottish ombudsman. However, we believe that there could be greater clarity in how existing non-statutory guidance, such as 'Putting Things Right', will be considered by the ombudsman in drawing up and enforcing model complaints procedures. We therefore made recommendation 5, that amendments be brought forward to provide this greater clarity, and, again, I am pleased that the Member in charge has accepted this recommendation.

Moving on to provisions that place a duty on the ombudsman to produce a Welsh language strategy, we welcome the strengthening of these requirements. However, we do not believe the Bill goes far enough. We think too much is left to the ombudsman’s own discretion and that the ombudsman should adhere to the principles of the Welsh language standards. We acknowledge that it would not be appropriate for the ombudsman to be covered directly by the standards, but we believe he or she should, in principle, deliver comparable bilingual services to those public services within his remit, and I am pleased again to note the commitment made by the Member in charge to revisit these provisions and that this will be done in consultation with the Welsh Language Commissioner and others.

Financial scrutiny was a matter that we centred on, Dirprwy Lywydd, and we appointed an expert adviser, Dr Gavin McBurnie, as mentioned earlier. Those financial implications are the area where the majority of our recommendations focus. It was good to hear both the ombudsman and the Member in charge make clear commitments that the ombudsman would not seek any increase in budget above 0.03 per cent of the Welsh block. However, we are seeking further information on the regulatory impact assessment on issues relating to the indirect costs and, in particular, the costs that may be incurred by the listed authorities that fall within the ombudsman’s remit.

We do not believe that the recommendations we have made seeking greater clarity are unreasonable, and, again, I welcome the Member accepting all but one of them.

I know that time—

Yes, time is running out.

—is very short, Dirprwy Lywydd, so perhaps I can move on and say that, in conclusion, we very much welcome this Bill. Our recommendations are set out. They have been referred to by the Member in charge.

To conclude, Llywydd, we believe this Bill will deliver on its policy intentions, and we would call on the Assembly to support the general principles.

Thank you. Can I call on the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, Mick Antoniw?

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. You will be very, very pleased to know that we reported on this Bill on 9 March and we made only one recommendation to the Member in charge and, as such, my contribution will be comparatively short.

With regard to the need for the Bill, we welcome the approach adopted by the Member in charge in providing a Bill that is a consolidated piece of legislation, and we believe it represents the best-practice approach our predecessor committee promoted in its report, 'Making Laws in Wales'. It will enable legislation of considerable importance in Wales to be available bilingually. The benefits of this to Welsh citizens should not be underestimated.

As with our scrutiny of all Bills, we considered the balance between what is on the face of the Bill and what is left to subordinate legislation. In this regard we are content with the Bill. In relation to the issue of how the ombudsman and the Children’s Commissioner for Wales work together, we agree with the Member in charge and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance that the detail should be set out on the face of the Bill. We trust the Member in charge will table the necessary amendments.

Turning now to Henry VIII powers, we and our predecessor committee have regularly and robustly scrutinised the use of Henry VIII powers. Whilst the use of such powers in this Bill are significant in number, we note that they are narrow in scope. We further note that six of the nine Henry VIII powers involve consultation. For that reason, we are content with their use in this Bill. As the committee with responsibility for scrutinising subordinate legislation, we will be able to monitor carefully the use of these powers by the Welsh Ministers, should the Bill become law.

My final remarks relate to section 78 of the Bill. Section 78(1) allows the Welsh Ministers by regulation to make

'(a) such consequential, incidental or supplemental provision, and

'(b) such transitory, transitional or saving provision,

'as they think necessary or expedient'.

Consistently, our view has been that the Welsh Government should adopt a more targeted approach rather than taking the widest powers available to them. This committee should be no exception. Our particular concern relates to the words 'necessary or expedient'. In our view, the word 'necessary' would be sufficient. Our only recommendation suggests the Member in charge tables an amendment to the Bill to remove the words 'or expedient' from section 78(1).

Now, I thank the Member for his formal response to our report and the comments that he's actually made just now. I note that he believes the power to make provision as is necessary under section 78 will be sufficient and, for that reason, 'expedient' could be removed. I therefore welcome his commitment to raise this issue with the Welsh Ministers in the coming weeks.

We note that the Cabinet Secretary is considering tabling an amendment to clarify that the section 78 power extends to amending primary legislation. Should an amendment be tabled, it is, of course, our view that, as a Henry VIII power, it should be subject to the affirmative procedure. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Can I call on the Counsel General, Jeremy Miles?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I begin my contribution to the debate by putting on record that the Welsh Government recognises and appreciates the important service the ombudsman provides in Wales? The ombudsman's office provides a means to help those people who have not received the level of service from the public sector that they have a right to expect. We therefore look positively on measures that would help the ombudsman to perform this vital role. I would like to thank the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill and their subsequent reports, and to their Chairs for their contribution to this debate.

This Bill is not, of course, a Government Bill. It has been introduced to the Assembly by the Finance Committee, and the recommendations produced by the two committees will be for the Member in charge of the Bill to take forward. However, I would like to take this opportunity to set out the Government's position, particularly in light of the evidence taken by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. The Bill proposes new powers in four distinct areas for the ombudsman, and I will take each in turn.

The Government supports the proposal that the ombudsman should be able to accept oral complaints. We also support the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's recommendation, as John Griffiths pointed out, for the ombudsman to maintain a register of all complaints received. This has the potential to yield more valuable information about the quality of public services in Wales. The Government also supports the proposal for a power to investigate private healthcare providers where a complaint concerns both NHS and private healthcare. Again, we agree with the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's recommendations that the Finance Committee must do more work to improve the Bill's regulatory impact assessment, particularly in respect of the costs to private healthcare providers. This section is currently uncosted in the Bill's RIA.

I turn next to the proposal to enable the Ombudsman to conduct own-initiative investigations. The Government has followed the evidence carefully in relation to this section of the Bill, and accepts the argument that the Ombudsman will be in a position to react to emerging themes and issues across the public sector. However, we share some of the concerns raised by stakeholders about the potential for the ombudsman to duplicate investigatory work already being carried out by other regulators and inspectors. The Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee has recommended that an amendment should be brought forward at Stage 2 to require the ombudsman to consult with other regulators and commissioners before embarking on an own-initiative investigation. We support this as it would go some way to reduce the risk of overlap, confusion and duplication.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I now turn to the final proposal in the Bill: the power for the ombudsman to set common complaints standards for the public sector. The Government has paid close attention to the evidence given during the Stage 1 process, including the analysis of the regulatory impact assessment by the independent expert in relation to common complaints standards. We have concerns that we mirrored in the evidence taken by the committee about whether the power to set common complaints standards could cut across existing statutory complaints procedures, many of which have been agreed and passed by this National Assembly. We believe it could be helpful for the ombudsman to publish principles and model complaints-handling procedures to provide consistency for service users and public services generally. But these should not undermine existing statutory complaints procedures, such as 'Putting Things Right', already referred to in this debate. This could create uncertainty for individual organisations and for the ombudsman and complainants. We could support this part of the Bill if the Member in charge brought forward amendments to ensure existing statutory complaints processes are respected. I'm pleased to note that the Member in charge has accepted this in his response to the committee's report.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Welsh Government also has some concerns about section 71 of the Bill, which, as we've heard, contains provisions requiring the ombudsman to have a Welsh language strategy. This was raised during scrutiny by the Welsh Language Commissioner and by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg. The Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee has said that this section of the Bill needs strengthening, and we would be very happy to work with the Member in charge to bring forward an amendment to ensure the ombudsman is subject to the Welsh language standards requirements. With that said, the Government will today support the general principles of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to say a few words about the next steps and the development of the Bill. The Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee has set out in its report a very clear recommendation that further work must be carried out on the Bill's financial costings and to the RIA. As they are currently presented, and as the Member in charge noted in his opening speech, there are a number of gaps in the costings and a number of areas where the financial evidence needs to be developed, including the robustness of the ombudsman's running costs and the costs to private healthcare providers. Until this work is carried out, the Government will not be tabling a financial resolution for this Bill. This will give the Finance Committee time to further consider the RIA and to undertake the work in line with the committee's recommendations. Any extra costs for providing the ombudsman with additional powers will be met from the Welsh consolidated fund. Put bluntly, more money spent on the ombudsman will mean less for front-line public services at a time of ongoing austerity. It's essential, therefore, that we have a robust analysis of the costs.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance has met the Member in charge of the Bill and shared a legal analysis of the Bill identifying a number of areas where changes need to be made to ensure that it functions correctly, if enacted, to meet the stated policy intent. I should stress that these are essential requirements for efficacy, rather than discretionary improvements and enhancements. The Government is keen to work with the Member in charge as the Bill progresses to remedy the issues highlighted.

I'd like to thank the Member for bringing this forward again today and, certainly, as a member of the committee, I will be supporting it, and we will be supporting it, passing Stage 1 in this Chamber.

Calls to increase powers to the ombudsman have been made since 2013, and we feel that it is imperative that there is transformation within the ombudsman's role. No-one receiving any of our public services should feel ashamed to have to go down a complaints route if they feel they need to. And, when things go wrong, we must all be able to scrutinise the errors and put things right. We have seen that Welsh public bodies are facing an increase in complaints: health, 38 per cent; social services, 9 per cent. 

A few cases that I have brought to the ombudsman myself as an Assembly Member have highlighted the real need for effective investigation and scrutiny where things have gone awry, or where people have fallen through the net, particularly within the health service—I have to say, where such omissions really can be a matter of life and death. In such cases, where the clock simply can't be turned back, an assurance that no other family will have to go through the same ordeal is often something of a comfort in itself. And the number of families that I've talked to—really, the ombudsman process actually does put some checks and balances in when things have gone wrong.

The overall actual policy intentions of the Bill in terms of protecting our most vulnerable and improving social justice are ones that I think we would all support in this Siambr. The removal of the requirement to make a complaint in writing, for example, will enable those unable to write to have their concerns heard. And it was quite worrying, really, when we were talking about the percentage of people with very poor numeracy and literacy skills in Wales—they are the forgotten sector here, and this will envelop those within this support. To this end, we support the strengthening of the ombudsman's powers as proposed.

We welcome the long overdue proposals within the Bill for the ombudsman to be able to undertake own-initiative investigations where thematic issues present. The ombudsmen of only five members of the Council of Europe are without this power, so it is about time that Wales was brought in line with the rest of the UK and Europe. The Cabinet Secretary has noted the reserved position of the Welsh Government with regard to the power, but I think that, within the right parameters, such a power is essential to improve the safeguarding and the protections of other more vulnerable members of society and has the potential to play a considerable preventative role also. In giving evidence to the committee, stakeholders were generally supportive of these powers and of taking the positive part forward, hearing that own-initiative powers are commonplace across Europe. So, there will be a body of good practice from which this Bill will develop in later stages.

We also welcome proposed powers to investigate matters relating to the private health sector, which will also make a significant difference to the outcomes the ombudsman is able to obtain. But, obviously, I do need to explain that that's the private sector within the line of care when it involves the health service as well. There's the appalling story of a member of the public who had to wait five and a half years for a response in relation to a complaint about private treatment received by her late husband.

Finally, proposed powers to establish a uniform complaints handling procedure across the public sector and to work jointly with other commissioners, statutory advisers, regulators and the Auditor General for Wales to aim to drive improvements in public services complaints handling and responses to the citizen are also welcome. But I have to say there were concerns within the committee about 'Putting Things Right' and the statutory complaints or guidance in terms of complaints procedures at the moment, because I think it is felt across the piste that there does need to be a consistent and a very robust complaints procedure in place here in Wales in the first instance. Because after all, the ombudsman has a tendency to only get involved after people have tried going down the complaints process, and I have to tell you from my own experience working on a number of cases for my own constituents that 'Putting Things Right' hasn't always put things right.

The committee has made several recommendations in relation to various revisions to the RIA ahead of this being considered at Stage 2. Of course, our support in taking the Bill forward is qualified in terms of this. I'm pleased to note the acceptance of 18 of our 19 recommendations, but unlike the vast majority of legislation considered in this Siambr, the motion to approve the financial resolution for this Bill has not yet been brought forward, despite the response to the committee's report by the Member in charge yesterday. I would be grateful for clarification from the Cabinet Secretary today as to the reason for this delay, and for his confirmation of the Welsh Government's intention to bring forward the financial resolution within the required time. There's a lot of work that's gone on on this, and we don't want this to fall because of this.

Are you winding up?

Yes. Without this passing, the committee will be unable to commence Stage 2 scrutiny, and the Bill could remain in some sort of limbo. Anyway, I look forward to taking my part in the scrutiny of this legislation going forward. Thank you.

I fully support the proposed ombudsman Bill. I'm pleased that the first recommendation from the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee is to agree the general principles of the Bill, or this debate would have finished a lot earlier than it's going to. I also agree with Mark Drakeford that all legislation being brought forward can be improved during the legislative process. I think that's something that we all, perhaps, need to think about. Can I also thank Simon Thomas for leading on this Bill throughout this Assembly? I would also like to put on record my thanks to Jocelyn Davies, who chaired the Finance Committee in the last Assembly and produced the basis of this Bill.

I wish to concentrate today on three main points. The ability to carry out own-initiative investigations, which is available to several other ombudsmen, is important, but it is also important that there are checks and balances to ensure this is not abused. Suggesting the ombudsman consults with other regulators and commissioners before doing so is an important one. Also, if the Assembly controls the budget of the ombudsman, and if the Assembly believes the own-initiative investigations are not value for money, then it can refuse to provide funding for it in the future. I think that is key. The other thing is that, without own-initiative, if you've got seven nursing homes that are owned by one company, and we've had complaints from four of them, you can't go into any of the other three that are run by the same company, which are likely to have the same problems, because you haven't had a complaint from them. The danger is that the bad practice in the other four will be carried out in the other three and you cannot investigate.

One of the key proposals is that oral complaints are received. We as Members regularly receive oral complaints. A lot of people are much happier talking to us and giving us an oral complaint than they are putting it in writing, either e-mail or letter. They're not confident in writing. Allowing the ombudsman to receive oral complaints will allow people who do not now complain to do so. The ombudsman accepting oral complaints is in line with the NHS Concerns, Complaints and Redress Arrangements (Wales) Regulations 2011, collectively known as 'Putting Things Right'. So, we don't want a situation where you can go to the NHS, you go through the whole of the NHS procedure complaining, and then when you want to go to the ombudsman, you can't complain orally, you have to put it in writing. That is going to debar a number of people. They're going to be the people who are going to be less educated, less capable of going through the process, and I don't think anybody in this room would like that to happen. So, I think it really is important that those who are not happy in writing are able to deliver their complaints orally.

I support the ombudsman having the power to investigate private medical treatment. We've had cases where people have gone to the NHS, gone back to private, gone to the NHS again, and they have a problem. The ombudsman can do the two NHS bits, but the bit in the middle that has been done privately he cannot go through. That is a definite problem, and it's one the ombudsman himself recognises. He cannot be sure at what stage and where the problem occurred. It does limit the ombudsman's ability to investigate private care as part of an NHS patient's journey pathway. It means he cannot give the complainant a full response and this, I feel, and I'm sure other people feel, is unsatisfactory. Any finding with regard to maladministration or service failures should have the same principles applied as NHS healthcare to ensure consistency.

This Bill is about improving the ability of the ombudsman to deal with complaints of the people of Wales, and I urge Members to support it because it's about making life better for the people we're here to represent.

Thanks to Simon Thomas for his work as the lead Member on this Bill and also to the people who participated in the consultation. We heard a considerable amount of evidence on the equality and local government committee on this Bill and we reached a certain degree of consensus on the committee about the need for greater powers for the public services ombudsman.

In UKIP, we are generally supportive of this Bill. We agree with the aim of making it easier for people to deal with the ombudsman, including people who want to make a verbal complaint because they lack the confidence to make a written submission. I agree with previous speakers on this point, that it will widen the number of people who can make complaints.

The right of the ombudsman to initiate his or her own investigations was discussed at length during the committee's inquiry. I think that this is a valuable tool for the ombudsman if he suspects that systemic problems may be occurring somewhere in the public services sector. Of course, there may be difficulties, as Mike Hedges outlined, and there is a need for checks and balances, but that has been covered, I believe, by the requirement to consult with the regulator. But we also have to bear in mind that, if systemic problems are discovered, then, ultimately, there could be cost savings once those are identified and rectified.

We also welcome the ability of the public to pursue complaints involving private medical treatment, that is when treatment involved the NHS at some stage. So, in general, we do welcome the principles of this Bill and we support today's motion. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm pleased to support this motion and to support the general principles of the public services ombudsman Bill. As we've heard, the ombudsman plays a vital role in ensuring that any member of the public who believes they have suffered injustice is able to make a complaint, and is also able to make that complaint with confidence that it'll be dealt with fairly. Many speakers have covered most of the areas that I was going to. It seems that it's easier to count the number of committees that haven't been involved in the ombudsman's Bill than to say those that have. All I will say is it's been a pleasure working on the Finance Committee with the Chair, Simon Thomas, in developing this.

We didn't take the decision lightly to progress with this Bill. We had a great deal of conversation and debate about it, because we did realise that you don't want to legislate lightly, you don't want to over-regulate, you don't want to make law that isn't necessary, if the ombudsman, we felt, had the powers to fulfil his tasks within the current legislation that was there. But we did decide that, on balance, since the introduction of the 2005 Act, best practice and international standards have moved on and we felt that it was important that Welsh legislation reflected this.

I concur with the words of my colleague from the Finance Committee Mike Hedges, who said that if a complaint involved tracking a complaint through the process, from the public sector to the private sector and back, even if it's a small amount of time that's in the private sector, as in the case of a medical complaint, then it seemed to us crazy that there should be a restriction on that complaint being progressed. 

I also agree with the members of the equality committee that if there is an issue of someone's literacy and they only feel comfortable making an oral complaint, as is often the case, then it isn't right that that complaint should be rejected just because of the form that it's been made in. And there should be a futureproofing of the process, so that if there is a new way of presenting complaints in the future, that should be recognised as well. At the same time, as the ombudsman himself told us, you also have to guard against vexatious complaints, and in any complaints system you will get a proportion, a minority, but sometimes a significant minority, of complaints that are either deliberately vexatious or that will peter out during the process of that complaint, and that has to be allowed for as well. 

This is a different type of Bill, as the Counsel General has said, because it's not being progressed by the Welsh Government, it's being progressed by a committee, and then the Government has its role to play, of course. But as I said at the start, I fully recognise the workload on the Chair of the Finance Committee, so we didn't push him over the edge to develop this in a complete vacuum of debate, thinking, 'Let's just have another piece of law in Wales.' We did believe that it was necessary, but at the same time, I think that some of the amendments that have been put forward are well worth considering, and I look forward to returning to the Finance Committee and following through now with the rest of this process, and hoping that the legislation that falls on the Government—I say it falls on the Government's doormat; it's not a Bill, is it—whatever process it is that the legislation takes to get to the Welsh Government, that that, then, is legislation that can be approved by this Assembly. 

Tony Benn used to say,

'What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?'

Now, the ombudsman in Wales seems to enjoy almost absolute power. Power corrupts, we're told, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, how does an everyday person get recourse with the ombudsman in Wales if they are treated badly by the ombudsman? And the answer in Wales is that they just can't. The only option open is a judicial review or a vote in the Assembly. So, unless a person has friends of serious net worth willing to fund a judicial review, the ombudsman has virtual absolute power, and that cannot be right. 

A person in north Wales claims to have been bullied by the ombudsman. A Cardiff resident states that the ombudsman is corrupt. A person in Carmarthenshire says that the ombudsman has covered things up, and also alleges corruption, and I'm in the process of looking at these allegations. The ombudsman seems to rely on gagging orders, and I want to talk about my experience, because the case in which I was involved and found guilty of an offence was firstly dismissed. Only after the personal intervention of the ombudsman did the investigation begin into me. 

Now, the investigating officer in my case was a former Cardiff council manager, who left the authority when I was deputy leader during a restructure, and I wasn't allowed to call witnesses in my tribunal. The ombudsman refused to disclose e-mails relating to my case. During the tribunal, a transcript was said to be inaccurate—a court transcript that supported my position. Many members of the public were not allowed into the tribunal either, and many people say it was a farce and a political show trial. 

I also had proof that the ombudsman had discussed my case, when it was supposed to be confidential, with another individual. I had text messages indicating this, and I wasn't allowed to present them. How can that be right? So, needless to say, I have massive—massive—concerns with the position of ombudsman in Wales and the power that that enjoys. In my opinion, these powers are already being misused. So, why on earth would I vote for more powers? I'll be voting against the proposal.    

Thank you. Can I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the debate? Simon. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank the Members who’ve taken part in the discussion today. May I first of all just recognise and be clear about the contribution by the two committees, of course? I’m very pleased to welcome their responses on the general issues with regard to the powers in the Bill that’s before the Assembly today, and also the warm words of the Counsel General, in general, to these proposals, but also a word of warning. We’ll be looking at how we can ensure that the Finance Committee, in preparing the next version of this Bill, responds to the Government’s requirements and also the requirements of the two committees.

May I be clear to John Griffiths, as Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee? Even though we can’t accept the restatement of the RIA in full before Stage 2, for the reasons I’ve set out—and I hope that you understand now that I also have to discuss amendments from the Government, which also affect this—I will certainly commit to keep the committee informed about the work that we're doing on these regulations and on the assessment. And as we go through the recommendations and see whether the figures change or whether we receive new information—whatever we do, we will share that information with the committee, so that it's aware, hopefully, and by the time that the Government is content to put forward a financial resolution, the committee will also see the fuller picture and be able to move towards Stage 2 of this process and see the amendments that shape this Bill ultimately.

I welcome in particular the fact that Mick Antoniw, as Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, has acknowledged that this is a consolidation Bill, and I think that we should remind ourselves that this is the first time for us as an Assembly to discuss this Bill, with regard to the powers of the ombudsman, given that initially stemmed from the House of Commons, and I think that it’s important that we—even though we’re responsible for recommending and nominating the ombudsman, and that the ombudsman is accountable to this Assembly, we’ve not had an opportunity to revise that legislation for a decade, and it’s appropriate, I believe, that we do that.

Can I just say, on some of the contributions to the debate that, obviously, I warmly welcome those Members who support the Bill, and the Finance Committee will want to take on board all the comments that have been made, but I'm particularly struck, I think, by comments from people such as Mike Hedges and Janet Finch-Saunders and behind me here with Gareth Bennett—everyone who's interacted with the ombudsman on behalf of their constituents and has actually seen the work that the ombudsman does, sometimes in solving problems, sometimes being unable to solve the problem but identifying the problem that's there.

The new powers in this Bill actually allow the ombudsman to sometimes do some of the work—. Systematic failure I think was mentioned by Gareth Bennett—problems that have been, for a long period of time, mentioned by Janet Finch-Saunders. These powers are designed to bring together groups or individuals to overcome those, and it's very much centred on the citizen. They're very much centred around the powers that the ombudsman needs to exercise, not as an ombudsman because he's a little dictator, but as an ombudsman on behalf of all of us and on behalf of all our citizens as well. I think many of us who've come across the ombudsman—. I've had problems solved by the ombudsman; I've had problems that the ombudsman has told me that he can't solve. Well, you know, there is something wrong sometimes with public services in Wales and we need to recognise that, but some of the powers in the Bill around complaints procedures going forward will hopefully address some of those long-standing failures. I very much welcome, therefore, those comments from Members. Nick Ramsay as well was supportive of that and underlined the fact that access needed to be there for justice and the access in these powers does that.

I recognise that one Member does not support this Bill—or at least one Member has publicly stated that he does not support the Bill, and he was, of course, subject to an adverse report via the ombudsman procedure himself. In answer to Tony Benn's question, of course, the ombudsman is answerable to this Assembly. A vote in this Assembly can dismiss the ombudsman. It needs to be put on record that the ombudsman is not without confines to his powers. And we do trust the ombudsman. There is a lot of trust that has to be invested in an ombudsman, because he—it is currently a he—will exercise great powers on our behalf, and we are suggesting that he has further powers. However, the powers that we are suggesting are further powers in the field of defending the citizen. They do not in any way interfere with the procedure that was set out by Neil McEvoy, which is regarding complaints regarding local councillors. These powers are not related to that whatsoever, and those powers are already contained, of course, in the 2005 Act passed by the House of Commons.

So, in taking this Bill forward, I hope people will come to the conclusion that we can use the ombudsman to improve public services in Wales when we identify failures that are systematic or running over a period of time; we can use the ombudsman to help our individual citizen when he or she has suffered some injustice because of a failure by public authorities. None of these powers we want to see used because all of us want to see perfect public authorities in Wales and a perfect administration of natural justice in Wales—it doesn't always happen. But when we do see the exercise of powers by the ombudsman, what we want to see, in turn, from public authorities in Wales is that they listen to what the ombudsman has to say, think about the exercise of their own relationships and administration, think about what they can learn from elsewhere in the United Kingdom, or even internationally, think of what the ombudsman can help them to achieve, and, of course, improve their own behaviour as a result of that. And I regret that not everyone has learnt that lesson.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.