Item 6 on the agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Assembly's dignity and respect policy. I call on the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee to move the motion—Jayne Bryant. 

Motion NDM6724 Jayne Bryant

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Approves the National Assembly for Wales's Dignity and Respect Policy.

2. Notes the guidance of the National Assembly for Wales's Dignity and Respect Policy.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I am pleased to bring before the Assembly today this dignity and respect policy. It brings clarity to the provisions already in the code of conduct around the high standards of dignity and respect everyone can and should expect from contact with AMs and those associated with the Assembly. 

This is being put forward today as part of the standards committee’s ongoing work to create a culture free from harassment of any kind, a culture where everybody feels empowered to call out inappropriate behaviour if it happens to them or if they see it happening to somebody else. The committee has concluded this policy to be necessary as a result of evidence gathering and reports in the media. It's a positive step in the right direction on the path to meaningful change.

The policy and associated guidance make it clear the type of institution we are and must be. It sets out steps to ensure that everyone feels safe, respected and comfortable when they engage with the National Assembly for Wales, and it makes the options for raising concerns or making complaints clear. It has been drafted with input from across the Assembly Commission, Assembly Member support staff and the standards commissioner, in addition to external consultation with people and organisations outside of the Assembly.

Today, we're asking Members to sign up to the standards set out in this policy. As representatives of the National Assembly for Wales, we need to show leadership and take responsibility for tackling the issues around inappropriate behaviour. Signing up to this policy today is an important step in doing so. This policy is part of an ongoing process. The Standards of Conduct Committee are determined to ensure it's explicitly clear that inappropriate behaviour has no place in the Assembly and that people are empowered to come forward to raise concerns or make complaints. 

Would you give way?

Are you giving way?

Yes. 

Thank you. I hear this phrase all the time—'inappropriate behaviour'. [Interruption.] Could you define what it is? Probably the most inappropriate behaviour is making false allegations, for example. This seems really nice on paper, but if you look at the lack of respect in this Chamber, as I uttered a few words then—the complete lack of respect from across the way—it doesn't seem to be worth the paper it's written on. So, what is 'inappropriate'?

[Inaudible.]

I think you'll find that if you have a read of the policy—

You give respect, Minister, and you give it back.

Thank you. You've made your contribution. I don't need you to end it from a sedentary position. 

I'm talking to the Minister, sorry. 

No, I don't need sedentary contributions, thank you. Chair. 

As I say, I'd like to stress that this work is ongoing. I do not want to predict the outcome of the committee's deliberations, but will briefly outline the broad intentions of the committee. We are convinced of the need to ensure that individuals feel able and willing to come forward and discuss their concerns. To do this, the committee is seeking input into the inquiry from a wide range of expertise around cultural change, diversity and respect. It's important that the committee makes robust evidence-based conclusions and recommendations that can shape the enabling culture we expect the Assembly to foster.

Currently, our focus is on ensuring that we have the right structures and facilities in place for the longer term. This includes considering the provisions in the code of conduct and the complaints procedure to make sure they're clear. We hope Members will agree to incorporate this policy into the code later this year once the committee draws its conclusions on the wider changes to the code of conduct. We're also considering the support provided to the standards commissioner’s office and the need to ensure that this is sufficient and appropriate to deal with the sensitive nature of complaints.

Following the November statement, the standards commissioner was asked by the Llywydd to work with each of the political parties represented in the Assembly. It was encouraging to hear at a recent Standards of Conduct Committee meeting that the commissioner had met with each of the parties and that progress was being made. Processes must be clarified, whilst not absolving any group of their responsibilities.

We're confident that the provisions put in place to date in the Assembly are moving in the right direction. All of us are required to act with dignity and respect towards everybody in all aspects of our lives. This attitude must underline all future discussions. I believe that this dignity and respect policy sets clear standards and robust expectations. It has come before you today as the starting point in a process that ensures greater clarity for everyone. I hope everybody in this Assembly Chamber will support the policy when we vote on this later today. 

I call the Llywydd, Elin Jones. 

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate today as Chair of the Assembly Commission and also as Llywydd. Though neither the Deputy Presiding Officer nor I are able to vote in today’s debate, I want to put on record our absolute commitment to this important area of work. I am grateful that the Business Committee has agreed that this isn't a policy that should simply be adopted by going through on the nod in the Chamber. So, a recorded vote will be required on this motion later this afternoon to demonstrate and underline Members’ commitment to this policy.

The policy before us today signifies a milestone in the journey upon which we have embarked since last October to improve the way we deal with complaints about inappropriate behaviour. We have listened, consulted upon, and adapted our plans. We have also benchmarked our action against best practice elsewhere to give us assurance that we have a policy in place that is fit for purpose as we move forward.  

I would like to thank the staff and trade unions at the Assembly for engaging in the constructive dialogue that has enabled us to reach this point today. We are now in a position where a Commission policy has been agreed through the trade union partnership. The remuneration board that is responsible for terms and conditions of the staff that we employ as Assembly Members has also agreed the policy. Again, Members' support staff, through the reference group and their trade unions, have participated constructively and effectively to get us to this point. 

As Llywydd, I undertake that this policy and the Commission staff policy will remain aligned. Despite there being different approval processes, the policy content remains the same, and importantly, we are now in a position where each group of staff—Commission staff, Members’ support staff, our contractors and Assembly Members—will be held to the same high standards of conduct. I was pleased to hear from Jayne Bryant that we will adhere to the original intention of aligning the dignity and respect policy in relation to Assembly Members with to the code of conduct for Assembly Members once the standards committee has completed its work.

The dignity and respect policy is just one of the pillars that will help build greater trust in the system and in the institution. But this is not just about the policy and complaints procedures that we have in place; it is the culture of the organisation and how we respond to allegations that will make the difference. That responsibility falls upon all of us as Assembly Members, Commissioners, the standards commissioner and our political organisations. Political parties must never brush these issues under the carpet, and I look forward to hearing from the standards commissioner in due course about the review I asked him to undertake to align our party complaint procedures and our own complaint procedures in the Assembly. It's clear to me that we are moving in the right direction, but I fully accept that there is much more to be done. We will therefore need to review our position on an ongoing basis from now on.

We have heard in the media about women who have been subject to inappropriate behaviour but who hadn’t come forward through our complaints procedures.  There have been concerns expressed about processes not being clear, the support not being sufficient and a perception that very little could be done if allegations were reported. This has concerned me greatly and they have informed the work that we have undertaken to date. As an institution, we want to ensure that people feel empowered to come forward and, should they choose to report the matter formally, feel confident that their complaint will be investigated and dealt with properly. We have also introduced trained contact officers in recognition of the fact that people may need confidential advice and support before deciding whether to make a formal complaint. 

I am also pleased to report that awareness training is being rolled out across the political groups. I want to reiterate today what we said in our statements in November and February, namely that inappropriate behaviour by Members, their staff or our Commission staff will not be tolerated. Collectively, we all have a responsibility to ensure that the National Assembly for Wales is a safe environment for those who work here, for those who visit the estate and for anyone who has dealings with us. Those principles apply wherever we undertake our work.

To conclude my contribution, it is worth acknowledging that we are a culturally diverse organisation and that we have received many awards for being an inclusive Parliament. I am proud of this, but we cannot rest on our laurels—we must keep striving to do better. To establish public confidence and trust, we must build a culture that is inclusive and free from harassment and we must have the right procedures to respond effectively and appropriately when incidents occur. That does not mean just having a policy in place, as important as that is; it means changing the way that we, the 60 Members in this Senedd, conduct ourselves, every day, in every way and on every platform, with dignity and respect. That's what the people of Wales expect from us.

I'd like to thank the Assembly Member and anybody else, actually, who is working on moving forward with this dignity and respect. I know it's mentioned as a debate—I don't think there's any debate, any argument, about this whatsoever. In speaking to you today, I do so on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group, of which I am the chair.

We fully support this motion—in fact, we welcome it. I'm sure that this will not, as I say, constitute much of a debate, although I will—. He's gone, he's left the Chamber, but I was going to raise an issue with my colleague Mr McEvoy. I would expect all Members here present to support the policy, the aims and the objectives that it presents. I'm extremely pleased to see that it's going to link in very closely with the standards commissioner.

I think, at all times, wherever we are, as Assembly Members, we should be mindful of our own code of conduct and the Nolan principles, because I think integrity in life, in any professional role, especially in a public role, is key. Ensuring that inappropriate behaviour has no place at the National Assembly for Wales, and ensuring freedom from harassment of any kind for all those associated with the Assembly, must be a fundamental principle from which we continue to build. But I think this also applies to us when we are working or—. As my own chief whip here has mentioned on occasions, we are Assembly Members 24/7, 365, and we must never ever forget that. We must be proud and honoured to represent our constituents. If bad behaviour is allowed, then I would want to question the institution itself. We have to set about creating the right culture. We have to have a culture that, if inappropriate behaviour has taken place, or even if there's the perception of inappropriate behaviour, we have the right mechanisms in place here, and the support, so that nobody feels that they cannot come forward.

The Welsh Conservatives welcome the aims of the dignity and respect policy, breaking down barriers for those who would wish to raise a concern. It is vital that anyone who feels that they have faced inappropriate behaviour or harassment feels empowered. Empowerment is key. Confidence in the system is also important in encouraging people to speak out when something is not right, whether perceived or in real terms. This policy provides clear and confidential procedure and outlines systems that I believe people should be confident in.

I will say this, though: I have been extremely disappointed, and I will be writing to the BBC, and I have been approached by members of my own staff—. I believe a survey has gone out by the BBC to all staff of Assembly Members, and the questions on there are routine, and some of them, actually, I find are obtrusive. I've found that, really, it's caused offence and upset to some members of staff, and I feel that the BBC themselves need to look inwards at their own organisation, because if we're going to have a culture of trust and honesty and appropriate behaviour, I'm very, very disappointed at the nature and tone of the actual survey that has gone out, and I will be writing to the BBC. There are no support mechanisms in place with regard to that particular survey, and some of the questions, I think, go beyond the pale. So, I just wanted to put that on record, because I will be writing on behalf of the group. Thank you.

I support this motion to agree the Assembly's dignity and respect policy. It is an important contribution to providing greater clarity on a number of aspects of important issues, that is what the expectations of the National Assembly for Wales are of anyone who is involved with the institution, what constitutes inappropriate behaviour, what you should do if you want to make a complaint about a particular case, and what the procedures are, and also, of course, how complainants, witnesses and those who are complained against are safeguarded within these processes. It’s all an important contribution, in my view, to an important issue for us as an institution. But I also think that we need to strike a note of caution here. This policy is one small step on a far longer journey, and nobody should think that one policy document like this one can be sufficient, and that the Assembly can simply move on. There is a broader process at play here, and as the Chair of the standards committee mentioned, that committee is currently doing much of that work as we speak.

Now, the evidence that we as a standards committee have gathered has been sobering, and has made us realise just how much work there is to be done in this area. We saw this week, of course, reports about the frightening figures from Cardiff University, which stated a very different story to the perception that many people have about the extent of this terrible issue of abuse and harassment. It’s raised the curtain on a problem that is far more common than many of us had imagined, and we need to recognise, in my view, that Cardiff University has been proactive in providing this online platform in order to record cases of harassment and abuse. 

This was highlighted in our evidence as a standards committee, and I certainly believe that it is something that we should be considering as a possible option for us here in the Assembly, to develop such as a medium, because, like the dignity and respect policy before us today, it would possibly be one other approach of tackling this problem, because the more opportunities there are to raise and to record these issues, then the more likely it is that victims and witnesses will come forward. And in light of that, of course, it is more likely that they, in turn, will be given the support that they need, and then, of course, in light of that, it is more likely that we will be able to tackle this problem and to create a real culture of dignity and respect, not just on paper in policy form, not just within the Assembly as an institution, but, of course, across broader society too.  

I've no difficulty with signing up to the first three paragraphs of the aims of this dignity and respect policy. Of course everybody should feel safe, respected and comfortable when they engage with the National Assembly, and people who work here should feel safe, respected and comfortable in their working environment. I also agree that the culture of the Assembly is diverse and inclusive.

But I do want to sound a cautionary note about the vagueness of some of the wording of this policy, and also the purported reach to us all as Assembly Members acting as private individuals, even, for example on holiday, or in any private situation, actually. I think we should be very careful about what we're doing here. If we are going to put ourselves in a position where, outsiders, as Janet Finch-Saunders has pointed out so far, can engage in purported acts of surveillance—this can be done clandestinely as well, not just openly, as she described, and we are, therefore, in all our doings in private life, whether it's after a few drinks in the pub or in a restaurant, or whether it's even in one's own private home, which might be bugged, telling a joke that might potentially give offence to somebody who can then make a complaint—this is potentially an instrument of oppression.

Now, I'll give one very topical example. Professor Richard Lebow, who is a professor of international political theory at King's College London, is currently being investigated by the International Studies Association because he made the mistake, at one of their conferences last week, I think it was, of getting into a crowded lift, and when he was asked, 'What floor do you want?', he said, 'Ladies' lingerie'. Now, this was then made the subject of a complaint by a professor of gender studies at some mid-western—I think—American university. He, now, is at risk of having his professional career undermined, perhaps even destroyed, because somebody has a grudge against him, or his purported or assumed political orientation.

Now, if we interpret the terms of this dignity and respect policy proportionately and sensibly, of course we're not going to put ourselves at risk, but I am troubled by recent decisions. And I won't go into the individual case, but I spoke about it in the debate on the standards committee report the week before last, or two or three weeks ago. I do think that we have to refine this statement so that we impose some test of reasonableness into the offence that we are creating. Of course, I don't want to adversely affect the dignity of others by anything that I do or say, but I'm not in control of how other people are going to be affected by what I say. Somebody might unreasonably take offence at something that I've said, and that could give rise to a disciplinary complaint, and that could apply to every single person, not only somebody who is a Member of this Assembly, but everybody who works here or comes into contact with us in an official capacity. And in that respect, I do believe that there are serious issues here, of freedom of speech, of privacy—which are both protected by the European convention on human rights, and other human rights legislation—and I do believe that we've not given sufficient care and attention to this issue by drafting these broad general statements of principle without any limitation, and applying them to us in our daily lives, 24/7, as Paul Davies has pointed out previously. Therefore, I would just add a note of caution, without wishing to oppose the policy document, that we should introduce some test of reasonableness and proportionality into what we're doing.

I speak this afternoon on behalf of the Labour group, and I just want to place on record our thanks to the Standards of Conduct Committee for producing the dignity and respect policy before us. The Labour group strongly supports the strengthened measures, which set out to protect everyone who works in our National Assembly or, indeed, engages with Members and with their staff. 

We believe that the strengthened support mechanisms and procedures are clear, comprehensive and appropriate for all concerned. We also very much welcome the way in which this policy has been developed in close partnership with staff, with Members and, indeed, with those with expertise in this field. Their views and experience have been invaluable in shaping this new policy. However, as other contributors have noted, this debate is about more than a vote on a document this afternoon. Crucially, it is about how we, as Members, staff and as an institution embed the principles of dignity and respect in everything that we do.

As a group, we will soon be taking up dignity and respect training to help further embed this policy into our work, and I know that other groups will also be engaging in a similar way. We look forward to working together with others across the Assembly, as the policy is rolled out and developed, to ensure that it continues to meet the important objectives that have been set out today.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we want to see everyone treated with dignity and respect, and that is why we will be supporting this policy today.

Thank you very much. I have a number of speakers in this. I'm not going to be able to get many more of you in, but I will take two more speakers. So, I'll take Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much. The definition of inappropriate behaviour is included in the dignity and respect policy, and it includes harassment, sexual harassment, bullying, threatening behaviour, and illegal discrimination. In looking at inappropriate sexual behaviour, the definition is:

'unwanted behaviour of a sexual nature towards another person…Behaviour "of a sexual nature" can cover…for example, unwelcome sexual advances…sexual jokes, displaying pornographic photographs or drawings, asking for sexual favours', and so on and so forth. That is, it’s a broad description, and broader than simply physical behaviour alone. Now, I welcome this definition very warmly, and I welcome the policy in general terms, but I must say, as others have said, that this today is a first step in the right direction.

It is entirely clear that we need a radical change of culture across society in Wales, and I call, once again, on the Welsh Government to hold a national survey and a national conversation on sexual harassment and sexual violence. That would raise the profile of the issue, would be a means to allow victims to know that the Welsh Government and the National Assembly are on their side, and would be a means of explaining what the nature of harassment is, what the different elements are, and why it's not acceptable. The conversation should also include the means that victims should use to actually counteract this behaviour, that is, how to respond on the spot, as well as making an official complaint once that behaviour has taken place.

Sexual harassment happens everywhere, and perhaps the focus, to date, has been on harassment in the workplace, but it's time that we recognised that it happens on our streets, in our pubs, in our social areas too. Sexual harassment is symptomatic of how women are treated as second-class citizens within this society, and we must acknowledge that the continuum of violence and harassment of women relates to broader cultural patterns of gender inequality. At the centre of this is having and recreating an unequal power relationship. Resolving the problem will be a huge task, and it has to include a cultural, social solution in broad terms, and that, in my view, starts with a national conversation. It includes looking at education to change behaviour. We have to start from the early years, teaching children and young people about healthy relationships, providing comprehensive sex education, and committing to providing compulsory comprehensive education about sex and healthy relationships in our schools as soon as possible.

We also need to create a space where it's possible for individuals to discuss these issues openly and confidently. The proactive approach taken by Cardiff University in creating a platform to report cases of harassment is an example that other institutions should follow. The more opportunities there are to report such cases, then the more likely it is that victims will come forward and will receive the support that they need. That, in turn, makes it more likely that we can create a culture of dignity and respect, in the real sense of those words, and not just in the National Assembly, but across society.

I think that Jane Hutt, in a few moments, will mention a new development, and I look forward to collaborating with other female Members in this Chamber, not only to discuss this policy in broader terms, but also in discussing issues related to gender more generally—

Do you mind me taking an intervention? It's just a little one.

Sorry, I was just finishing.

Just a small intervention. Thank you for taking it. You keep saying 'women'. I would like to think that—and I'm sure it does—any male employee, member of staff or—. This has to be across the gender divide, because we have to be completely open. I just wanted to put that on record.

Of course. I agree with you entirely, but the statistics tell a very clear story: that women are far more likely to be affected by harassment and violence. For example, one in four women in England and Wales suffer domestic abuse. With men, it's 13 per cent. So, there is a disparity there, and that's not to say that it doesn't happen to men too. I will finish on that note. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. And seeing as Jane Hutt has been mentioned, Jane Hutt. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I welcome this debate today on dignity and respect, recognising the role of the Standards of Conduct Committee bringing us to this point where the whole Assembly has the opportunity to endorse the dignity and respect statement? I'm glad that you recognise this, Jayne Bryant, as Chair of the committee, as open for review and development, and learning from this debate and ongoing evidence to the committee. And as you said, it's a step in the right direction as a path towards meaningful change and our shared learning, of course, in this Assembly. I'm glad that the Llywydd has mentioned the training available, which I understand some of you have undertaken—awareness raising on dignity and respect. I hope we can secure cross-party agreement from all Assembly Members to take this up. That would be a real demonstration of commitment.

It's appropriate that we're debating this statement this week, following the statement made by Julie James yesterday on the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia, and also the attention drawn by Jack Sargeant to Mental Health Awareness Week, when he said we must all work together to find solutions to help people suffering with mental health issues. All this is part of us learning and living the dignity and respect agenda here in this Assembly.

We know how much more we need to do on all fronts, as Vikki Howells has said—as individuals, as elected Members, as employers, we must make this a priority. I also think we can learn from other institutions like Cardiff University. It was good to hear from Gwyneth Sweatman from NUS Wales about how effective this new online system has been to enable students to report incidents of assault and violence—it has seen 101 student-reported incidents since last October. We can learn from those others, where we can see that this new online system has inspired confidence, confidence to enable people to report complaints, and that's what we need here.

I'm particularly concerned to support the statement in light of our need as an Assembly to be at the forefront of promoting equality of opportunity for all, with a kinder politics, free from discrimination, inappropriate behaviour and harassment. Mary Beard, in her 'Women and Power' manifesto, reminds us of opportunities that I believe we have here in the Assembly to change our political culture, so that we can be more proactive about the kind of Assembly we have here. She suggests that means thinking about power differently. It means decoupling it from public prestige. It means thinking collaboratively about the power of followers, not just leaders. What I have in mind is the ability to make a difference to the world, and the right to be taken seriously, together and as individuals.

Siân Gwenllian has helpfully suggested a national conversation on sexual harassment. Welsh Government is undertaking a gender review. We know from the #MeToo campaign that brave women have been speaking up around the world. As Catherine Fookes has said, the #MeToo campaign is empowering this. This is a time to move forward towards a society that is equal, and where women can be free of gratuitous sexism, or worse.

I thank the Member for giving way, and I regret this debate is only for half an hour, because there's so much to say on this issue. But I wondered if she was aware of the cross-party working group in Westminster that's recommended that the role of an independent sexual violence adviser should be set up, bearing in mind that sexual harassment and sexual violence should be dealt with by a trained sexual violence adviser in a procedure that's separate from complaints about other forms of inappropriate behaviour. I wondered if the Member was taking that recommendation into account when she was talking about those campaigns.

I think that's something as well that the Standards of Conduct Committee can take forward. But, as Siân Gwenllian helpfully previewed an announcement that I'm making today, we are seeking to establish a new cross-party group on women's equality to help move this agenda forward, and obviously taking on board that kind of evidence, of a very powerful Women and Equalities Committee in Westminster, chaired by Maria Miller. We want to support the work on the Standards of Conduct Committee on dignity and respect, and make sure that this Assembly and Government are once more leading the way on equality of opportunities and equality of outcome in Wales.

The key message, I think, is that we need to ensure that our policy and procedures are in place, that people are confident about it across the whole of the Assembly and those we represent and serve. Those must be in place, and then we must all be held to account.

Thank you very much. I now call on Jayne Bryant to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Thank you very much to everybody who's spoken today. I really do appreciate all of your contributions, and I encourage all Members of this Chamber to engage with the committee's work over the coming months to ensure that no inappropriate behaviour has any place in this Assembly. Again, as I've said, and a number of you have picked up on, it is really a positive step in the right direction, but again, I must underline this is really a starting point, and there is still much to be done. The committee's work is ongoing, and Members will be kept updated. The next step will be to publish the Standards of Conduct Committee's report, which we aim to do, hopefully before the summer recess.

I'd like to, firstly, thank the Llywydd for her comments and her strong support to get this right throughout the whole process. It's really important that she's on board and very keen to do this. As the Llywydd said in her contribution, it's not just about the policy and complaints procedure that we have in place; it's about the culture of the organisation and how we respond to allegations that will make the difference, and those issues will be an ongoing challenge. And the Standards of Conduct Committee, as I said, will continue to look at that and those issues.

Janet Finch-Saunders, I'm very grateful for your comments and strong support, and your strong commitment to stamping out any question of inappropriate behaviour. It's crucial that people have confidence in that procedure. So, thank you. Llyr, there's an opportunity to thank you and other committee members for all your support, because we are a cross-party committee, and I appreciate you underlining how this is important work and part of our ongoing work, because it's certainly part of a wider piece of work that we will be doing.

Neil Hamilton, thank you for your comments and your support on this policy. I'd just like to say that the standards commissioner is independent and he investigates any complaints as a first port of call. Vikki Howells, thank you again for your support, and you mentioned in that the dignity and respect training that I and the Llywydd and the Deputy Llywydd have undertaken and, I think, other Members. I would like to see as many Members, if not all Members, really, doing this really, really important training. So, I think that's something that we should, importantly, make time for.

Siân, as you've said, the definition is clear in the policy and your contribution highlighted the wider context that must be addressed and you've mentioned that national conversation, and I really look forward to working with you and seeing how the committee can take part in that as well. Jane Hutt, you mentioned that we all have to live with dignity and respect and we all have to lead with it as an agenda, and we do really need to be doing that in the Assembly. I welcome the setting up of the cross-party group, and I look forward to working with you, as I'm sure the standards committee will be as well. Thank you to Julie Morgan for her intervention, because I'm sure that the points that you've raised will be looked at in the wider context of the Assembly's work and the standards committee's work.

So, just thank you to everybody who's made a comment today and it is an important step forward. This is a responsibility on all of us and I urge all Members to support this today. Thank you.

Thank you very much. As was indicated by the Llywydd in her contribution, in accordance with Standing Order 11.15, the Business Committee have decided that a vote on this motion will be taken by a recorded method and therefore this vote will be taken at voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.