The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Julie James, amendments 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, and amendment 3 in the name of Caroline Jones. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We move on to item 6, which is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, and I call on Suzy Davies to move the motion. Suzy.

Motion NDM6738 Paul Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that 11-17 June is Carers Week 2018.

2. Recognises the vital contribution made to Welsh society by the roles undertaken by Wales’s estimated 370,000 unpaid carers of all ages.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to implement the Welsh Conservative policy for a young carers future grant, which would ensure young carers are supported to pursue further and higher full time education and training opportunities.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to publish figures for how many carers' needs have been assessed since the introduction of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and how many of those assessed needs have been met.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to introduce a right to respite for both carers and those they care for.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion.

Members, I suppose the easiest way to start this is to just say that it's Carers Week, and let's have a debate about carers. This awareness raising is very valuable, and it's useful to have a point, I think, at which to mark our appreciation. But I suspect that what most of the 370,000 unpaid carers would like us to do is show that appreciation by acting rather than just talking about it. 

Three hundred and seventy thousand people is over 11 per cent of the population. It's just about twice the number who work in our health services, including all the dentists and administrative staff, and scientists and doctors and nurses and health visitors, the paramedics, the technical staff, the midwives and the therapists. They provide over £8 billion-worth of unpaid care, and that's the equivalent of over half the Welsh Government's budget. I think that is one hell of a 'thank you' that this nation owes its unpaid carers.

I hope that this debate will prove a profitable and open-minded exchange of ideas, speaking directly to those things that matter to carers themselves, and perhaps not getting too hung up on structural changes without a clearer explanation of cause and effect. But I am pleased to see that it has attracted a number of amendments that I'll come to in due course.

But I'd like to start with the one that I think has really missed the mark on good faith carers, and that is the Government amendment—No. 1. It's not the substance of the amendment, which simply sets out the Government's stall, which is fine, but the fact that it deletes point 4 of the original motion—the very point that holds you, Minister, to account on the most valuable, indeed statutory, promises that you've made to carers so far. You could've come, Minister, to this Chamber and told us in good faith that of course you'd publish figures on how many carers' needs have been assessed and then met under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, and you could've told us, quite reasonably, that, with 370,000 carers in Wales, this number of people couldn't conceivably have been reached since 2014, but perhaps given us an indication of how local authorities were recruiting for the work, or maybe outsourcing the work—not just assessing and meeting the needs of carers, but identifying new carers for which you also have a statutory responsibility. You could've told us, maybe, that it was even difficult to find assessors, or even pay them, and I think, to a degree, we would've understood. But to refuse to be scrutinised is shameful. Have you really been put out so much by Carers Wales's 'track the Act' findings last September, which said that there was, and I quote, 'little evidence' of the first full year of the Act improving the lives of carers?

Silence is never golden, as other Government colleagues have found out this week. It gives rise to suspicion, and I suspect that failure to guide councils to consistency on what constitutes assessment and what constitutes meeting needs has meant confusion about what those statutory requirements actually mean. How can you be sure that councils are acting lawfully if carers don't know the legal basis of the various conversations they're having with local authorities. So, please don't tell this Chamber that you don't know what it is that you would be counting to produce these figures. The social services and well-being Act was flagship legislation and it should be capable of post-legislative scrutiny. 

I was already worried that the rights that you referred to in your amendment may be proving meaningless, despite their being agreed by the last Assembly. Arguably, any statutory right is meaningless unless there is a corresponding statutory remedy, which, of course, doesn't exist here, but it's definitely meaningless if you deny the legislature holding you to account on it.

Your ministerial advisory body, which we welcome, had better really have its bottom-kicking boots on to get you to catch up with making this legislation effective and I urge Members to support amendment 5 to make sure that we can scrutinise how hard they're kicking. You can also be expecting us to watch how well the health and social care plans unroll. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of goodwill towards these, but their success must be measured on more than joining up innovative services or improved status and responsibility for intermediate and social care professionals, happier patients or even care receivers. They have to improve the lives of that 11 per cent of the population that we're talking about today as well. If the health of our carers does not improve, especially their mental health, if our young carers aren't getting more time in school, if our young adult carers are dropping out of further education, training or apprenticeships because of their caring responsibilities, if businesses don't get anything meaningful from the new employers for carers hub, which we're looking forward to hearing more about, and if we are still talking about gaps in respite at the end of this Assembly term, then the parliamentary review will have failed.

I'm disappointed but not surprised that Welsh Conservative plans for a young adult carers future grant has gone down less well with the parties here than with the young adult carers themselves and with the Carers Trust, which speaks for carers of all ages. But despite your disconnect with this policy, I think you—I'm sure you will, actually, join me in congratulating Lucy Prentice and all at Carers Trust Carmarthenshire Crossroads Care for their campaign to reform carers allowance. I wish her every success in taking that argument to the UK Government and I will be supporting her in her aim. 

However, we don't support amendment 2 on this, because there is no guarantee that the devolution of powers would result in the reform as claimed, and I would rather use the powers that we have now to achieve the same result, allowing young adult carers to prepare for and invest in their own futures at the same time as keeping their families together.

Looking quickly at the other amendments, I don't really see how Plaid's amendment 3 makes much sense. We don't really support exploitation or abuse of flexible working options anymore than you do, but surely you can see that flexible working may actually help young adult carers who cannot commit to regular hours.

Amendment 4—nothing we can disagree with there. Amendment 6 we would've supported, as we do support the campaign for an ID card, if you hadn't muddied the picture with a transport reference, because our own future grant goes hand-in-hand with our own transport green card, which empowers all young people under 25 to expand their horizons.

We support amendment 8, but I'm a bit wary of amendment 9. It may just be the way it's phrased, but I think it's too much to ask children as young as eight to take responsibility for direct medication or treatment of another. Your further detail may give us a bit of reassurance on this, but we cannot support the wording, I'm sorry.

Finally, I just want to offer my own thanks to those members of the community who care for carers—who may meet their needs, assessed or not. We will all have examples in our regions or in our constituencies, but I have a special affection for Louise Barham, who has set up the Memory Lane Cafe in Pyle. As you probably realise, it's a chance for people with dementia to get out and socialise, maybe share some activities, but its greatest value, I think, is that it gives their carers that chance too to spend time with others facing the same dilemmas, the same guilt, the same grief, and to take heart from the fellowship of each other. Government strategies will never replace human kindness, but we must absolutely make sure that nothing gets in its way. Thank you. 

Thank you. I have selected the nine amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Can I ask the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care to move formally amendment 1 tabled in the name of Julie James?

Amendment 1—Julie James

Delete all after point 2 and replace with:

Acknowledges that the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 gives carers a right to have their own needs as a carer assessed and for assessed and eligible needs to be met by local authorities.

Welcomes the Welsh Government’s national priorities for carers and the formation of a Ministerial Advisory Group on Carers to ensure the implementation of the Social Services and Well-being Act makes a real difference in the lives of carers in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Thank you. I now call on Bethan Sayed to move amendments 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Bethan.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Delete point 3 and replace with:

Believes that if the administration of welfare was devolved, the anomalies within the benefits system that remove support for carers who wish to pursue education and training can be eradicated.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Insert as new point after point 2 and renumber accordingly:

Notes that the labour market for young people, with the proliferation of zero hour contracts and unpaid internships as part of career pathways, creates barriers for young carers who wish to pursue paid employment and careers alongside caring responsibilities.

Amendment 5—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to set milestones for the young carers advisory group and provide regular updates to Assembly Members on their progress.

Amendment 6—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure consistency across all parts of Wales in the roll-out of a young carers’ card, which should include access to discounted transport.

Amendment 7—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to clarify how much of the proposed £3 million funding for carers’ respite will be allocated to young carers.

Amendment 8—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure all pharmacies are implementing the guidance on allowing young carers to pick up prescription medication on behalf of those they care for.

Amendment 9—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure young carers receive appropriate training in the administering of medication for those they care for.

Amendments 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 moved.

Diolch. This being Carers Week, as has been exemplified, it's an important opportunity for us to have this debate, one that deeply affects the lives and experiences of so many people, so I thank you for bringing this debate forward. I myself brought forward a motion on young carers last summer. And just last week, I had the pleasure of welcoming some young carers from Swansea YMCA and Cardiff to the Assembly to meet with the children's Minister so he could hear their concerns directly. But as the motion makes clear, it's important that we focus on carers of all ages too. They play an invaluable role, and without the efforts of carers, our public services would be under significantly higher pressure than is currently the case. But I do feel that we can offer carers more support than is currently out there.

There are a number of Plaid Cymru amendments, which I would like to propose here today, and many of those amendments have actually come directly from those young carers, who, I'm pleased to say, are here today. Our amendment 2 is something Plaid Cymru have raised on previous occasions, and we will continue to raise it, for the simple fact of how anybody can claim to be serious about tackling the problems inherent to the welfare system if we show no appetite to take at least some control of that system ourselves. I simply do not accept any semantic argument that we must protect the solidarity of the welfare system across the UK, because it already has been fragmented. Scotland has its own administration rules and so does Northern Ireland. I'm tired of the arguments that only have the effect of anchoring us with an English policy that does nothing to help our citizens here in Wales.

Amendment 3, we believe, is also important because it notes the very real economic problems and uncertainty that exist for so many people. For a young adult carer with responsibilities at home, the uncertainty and lack of stability inherent to zero-hour contracts is a real barrier. Carers of any age need employment that may allow them to remain as a carer.

Our other amendments focus on young carers, as I've already talked about, because their needs have often been forgotten when it comes to policy. Last year, in a debate on this subject, I drew attention to the fact that there simply wasn't enough progress being made in terms of implementing proper and consistent guidance for authorities and schools on recognising and providing support for young carers. I think it's fair to say that guidance and training are still ad hoc, with some places doing far better than others, as with access to respite services and leisure time. I'd appreciate more regular updates from the advisory board now that it has been established, because young carers told me that the pace of change is not fast enough and, in the meantime, they are having to leave school, as Suzy Davies has said, without the qualifications that they need ongoing.

Furthermore, I would like to make the argument that there should have been more involvement from groups such as the YMCA in this process. They've had hands-on experience of being able to make the care assessments, for example, to be commissioned to do that work. Also, I am a bit curious as to why you're launching another investigation into ID when the YMCA have actually done that work. It seems to have gone into the ether.

One of the issues I've been told about by young carers is the practicalities of carrying out their role. We included transport in that, because they said that they didn't want just a card to be able to show to somebody, they wanted something tangible on that card, and transport was the key thing for them. I think discounts in, perhaps, local shops or local places would be something else. They just don't want a card that might stigmatise them further, so that was something from them.

In relation to the amendment on the appropriate training on the administration of medication, that again came from a young carer, because she told me that she was injecting morphine into her father and she hadn't had any training on that. She hadn't had anybody actually ask her whether she was okay with that, whether it was something that she felt comfortable with, but she just had to do it. So, that is what is important for me. You may think that a certain age is too young and I may agree with you, but these young carers have to do it because they don't have an opportunity to not do it. I give way.

Thank you. I completely recognise what you're saying. Young carers and young adult carers will find themselves in this position. And my question for the Minister is: why on earth are they in that position? Maybe there's a way around it that way.

Yes, and I know there's guidance to GPs—and I've had this briefing—but young carers are raising this with me: that the chief pharmaceutical officer for Wales sent out a guidance note in 2013 about dispensing medicines and access for young carers. That's the other issue—they go there and they're told they can't get the medication. That was 2013, and they're still telling me now, in 2018, that this isn't happening and that they're being refused access to medication. If they don't get it, their loved ones don't get the medication at all. So, if this is a guidance document, then really it's not working currently at all.

I think I would finish with what Suzy Davies has said quite strongly as well. In terms of the care assessments, we know that some areas are simply not doing them, and some areas simply don't know how many young carers they have. If we don't know that, by virtue of this being an Act, then we need to monitor that, and we need assessments in place. I think that Swansea YMCA seems to know more about how many young carers there are than the actual local authority. So, I really think that this has to be made clear, and I would support that deletion not happening because we have to be able to hold the Government to account on this for the benefit of young carers. That's what this is all about: so that they can see progress, and then we're not here in another five years saying, 'Well, what's happening on this piece of paper?' They really want to see a change happening now.

Can I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 4 tabled in her name? Caroline.

Amendment 4—Caroline Jones

Insert as new point 3 and renumber accordingly:

Recognises that unpaid carers of all ages save the NHS and social services in Wales over £8bn per year, yet a vast majority of carers feel their contribution is not valued or understood.

Amendment 4 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today. I agree wholeheartedly with the motion before us, and my amendment purely seeks to highlight the invaluable contribution made by Wales's army of unpaid carers.

We would have to more than double our entire health and social care budget, if not for the thousands of people caring for a loved one, a friend or neighbour. The sheer scale of their contribution proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that Wales is a caring nation, but who cares for the carers? Sadly, not enough is being done to support carers, and because of a lack of support, many are struggling. Two out of three carers do not get enough sleep. Over half don't get enough exercise and have suffered depression because of their caring responsibilities. If we don't look after these carers, they will end up needing care for themselves. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 was supposed to enhance the support for carers, but the sad reality is that many carers are not receiving the carers needs assessment to which they are entitled.

Age Cymru's 'Care in Crisis?' report found wide variation in the numbers of over-65s receiving needs assessments, and that when care packages were provided, there was often no night-time support. Carers of all ages need help and support, and I hope that the Minister's review of the social services and well-being Act will address the variation in support from local authority to local authority. We have to put an end to the lack of round-the-clock support, an end to three to four-year waits for overnight respite care, and an end to carers providing over 50 hours of care with little to no support.

While I do not support Plaid Cymru's amendment calling for the devolution of welfare, changes have to be made to the benefits system. It is perverse that young carers are forced to choose between pursuing full-time, further and higher education or continuing to receive carers' allowance. It is perverse that carers' allowance is the lowest amount of benefit of its kind, and it is perverse that those clearly unable to work are losing their benefits, forcing them and their carers into greater poverty. So, I urge the Welsh Government to continue to press the UK Government for welfare reform that is fair and equitable.

As we celebrate Carers Week, it is incumbent upon us all to do more to support the unpaid carers. The Welsh Government believes they have done so with the introduction of the social services and well-being Act, but it's clearly not working as intended as two thirds of carers have not been offered or requested a needs assessment, and three quarters of carers say that they do not get any support at all from their GP. The Welsh Government does need to do more.

I urge Members to support the motion and all amendments, with the exception of amendments 1 and 4. By doing so, we will be showing Wales's 370,000 carers how much we appreciate them and will do more to support them in future. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd also like to begin my contribution, as has everyone else, with a heartfelt thank you to all of the carers of Wales who, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, are never off duty and very seldom have down time. As others have said, without them, truly, our society would grind to a halt. I was staggered by Suzy Davies's figures about the fact that the numbers of carers actually outnumber our NHS in its absolute entirety, and I think we should all really just think on that very, very carefully.

Many of us in this Chamber have been carers or will be carers in the future—for example, being a parent. But, of course, these kinds of caring roles have an endpoint. Children eventually grow up and leave home, hopefully, and you no longer have to have a responsibility for them. But, of course, if you're a carer, you're caring for someone who may never leave home. You're caring for someone who will never have an improvement, will never get better, will always be relying on you to care for them. You have no light at the end of your tunnel. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to shine some of that light.

As a constituency Assembly Member, I find a lot of my casework brings me into contact with carers of all ages, and we've discussed quite often in this Chamber older carers and the kind of help that they need. I had one case that came to me last week. Actually, it was a neighbour, and she has a very elderly neighbour, who has absolutely nobody left in this world. This elderly neighbour needs to go to Morriston Hospital for treatment, so this neighbour—who is not financially well-off and has a battered old car—takes her up there a couple of times every month for this treatment. She was basically contacting me to say, 'I love doing it. I don't mind doing it. I cannot afford the petrol money. How can you help?' This person is performing that care function. So, it's not always regulated. It's not always, you know, so-and-so looking full time after somebody else. It's the kindness of strangers, and that's what we need to inculcate and to expand, but we need to support that kindness of strangers.

For the rest of my contribution I actually want to just talk about young carers very briefly, and I know that Bethan has made some very, very good points. When I was a very new Assembly Member, I went to meet a young carer in Pembroke Dock, and she had just received a detention from school. I think, at that time, she was about 13 and a half or 14. She hadn't been able to put her homework in on time. When I arrived at her home, I was shocked to find that she looked after her very, very depressed mother. Her mother was depressed because her mother was looking after her older, difficult, autistic son, and her husband who was in a wheelchair. So, that one small girl was actually bearing the entire brunt of that family. The school had no idea that she had that kind of caring responsibility, so when she went into school looking older than I probably look, they had no sympathy for the fact that she hadn't been able to do her homework.

So, Minister, my very first question to you is: I want to pick up on the point that Bethan, I know, also made about how we must ensure that schools pick up on young people who are carers. The average is that young carers will miss some 48 days' worth of school. Gosh. If you say that quickly, it doesn't sound like very much, does it? 48 days. That's over nine and a half weeks of school. That's not skipping off to play truant or going on holiday with your pals or whatever. That's because you are looking after somebody and you're too exhausted to come back in. Minister, I would like to see some kind of system where every child in every school, if they have a caring responsibility, is registered, is logged, has pastoral support, and has another adult who is bigger than them, with slightly larger shoulders, who can help them fight their way through the very difficult situation that they find themselves in.

One more case I'm going to leave you with: a young boy and his mother. That young boy would come home every day, his heart absolutely beating, hoping his mother would be okay. She had an illness that meant that she would collapse at the drop of a hat. They lived in a house with stairs. The only loo in the house was upstairs. So, he'd be frightened that she'd go upstairs during the day and would fall down those stairs. After much lobbying, we finally got the county council to find that little family unit a bungalow to move into. Problem solved, except they said, 'No, you can have this lovely new bungalow, but guess what, little boy? Get rid of your pet dog.' Come on. We have to be kinder. We are saying that we rely as a society on the kindness of strangers to help pick up the shortfall that is in our system because we don’t have enough money, we don’t have enough people, but, boy, do we put obstacles in it? And sometimes the state itself doesn’t display that very kindness we ask.

So, Minister, a card or some kind of recognition that every child in school gets picked up. And, finally, an integrated way of a young carer having some kind of support that interrelates into local county councils or a social carer for them to help them navigate it. They don’t want to abrogate responsibility; they love their family member, but they need our help. They’re children first and foremost. Even if they are 16 or 17, it’s still a huge, heavy burden.

We absolutely have to cherish carers, because if we don’t, we are not operating prudent healthcare, and we will end up causing the system to be far more expensive as well as far less responsive to the needs of individuals who need that care. I have in mind an elderly constituent, in her late 80s, who is still looking after her autistic son in his 50s. I do worry about that, because I do feel there is not a plan for what is the inevitable demise of this carer. But, obviously, that’s something that social services need to be mindful of.

I also think that we need to recognise absolutely the lifelong commitment of parents who have children who are never going to grow up into independent adults because of the disabilities that they have. I think about these parents who know that their child has the cognitive ability of a five-year-old and, inevitably, they are going to depart before the child, and ensuring that they have long-term arrangements for after their death is so important to them. Even if they've got money, they have to know who is going to be looking after this individual when they’ve gone, because that is not the normal pattern of things, and it’s absolutely essential.

Looking at the 'A Healthier Wales' plan, which was published on Monday, I note that we talk about working in true partnership, but then I can’t really see anything very much on how we are going to be working in co-production with carers in developing these plans, because I think that that is absolutely crucial. I am delighted to see on Twitter that the Cardiff regional development partnership has today launched their commitment to carers, which is an indication of how that organisation, at least, takes seriously the contractual arrangement they must have with carers. So, I’d be very interested to hear from the Minister how we’re going to engage parents, not just talking to them and listening to them, but working on co-producing solutions that will enable them to go on being successful carers.

Whilst our debate has mentioned our young carers and the fantastic and heart-warming work they do, as the Welsh Conservatives' older people's champion, I would like to highlight the work of our older carers within Wales. Of our 370,000 unpaid carers, around 24 per cent—that's 90,000—are over the age of 65, which is the highest proportion in the UK. Sixty-five per cent report having long-term health problems themselves, or, indeed, a disability of their own. Indeed, over two thirds say that being a carer has an adverse effect on their mental health and well-being. Whilst the social services and well-being Act widened the definition of a carer and implemented changes to carers assessments, Carers Wales have noted that there is little evidence that the Act has improved the lives of our carers.

Now, there are two key points I would like to address in terms of how the lives of older carers, and indeed carers of any age, might be improved: effective assessments regarding the help and support needed to continue caring, and effective, quality respite. As regards assessments in particular, Carers Wales note that councils may be acting unlawfully if carers are not made aware of the legal basis of the conversations or assessments they are having, with some councils allegedly using 'what matters' conversations as an assessment, rather than a formal and a distinctive meeting. So, I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could confirm what steps he is taking to ensure that full clarity is provided by local authorities to carers in this regard. More worryingly, too, was the admittance by the Cabinet Secretary, on a written Assembly question last year, that it would not be possible to determine how many carers had an assessment by local authorities due to differences in definitions and timescales for data collection. So, of course, I would urge the Welsh Government to take serious steps to improve the situation, and would ask how it is possible for the Government to monitor outcomes and the success of this policy without the relevant data.

With regard to respite, the Carers Trust have highlighted the need for access to flexible and high-quality respite. Flexibility here is key, because respite doesn't just mean a weekend away, or a week in supporting accommodation; it can be just an hour's cover to enable a carer to pop to the shops, the bank, or for a quick coffee with their friends. Just imagine the impact that not being able to do those things that we so often take for granted, what that, might have on a person.

We talk a lot about the isolation and loneliness of older people in this Chamber. This can affect carers too. Although they have the company of the person they provide care for, this can often prevent them from having the time and the flexibility to see their other friends and members of their own family. We note the commitment of the Welsh Government to bring forward a national respite strategy, and a pledge last year of a £3 million fund for local authorities to support this. But, again, we're seeing little evidence of progress, and I would welcome an update from the Cabinet Secretary as to how this is being taken forward, the structure that this strategy takes, how this funding is being used by local authorities, and how many actual people are seeing the benefits and have received respite under the scheme.

Llywydd—Deputy—we know the invaluable work carers do here in Wales. We know that they save our economy upwards of £8.1 billion a year, but investing in carers can save almost £4 for every £1 spent, and in monetised health benefits could save the health system £7.88 for each £1 spent. We must all work harder to recognise the selfless dedication with which they support our most vulnerable people, and we must ensure that they are given our utmost support.

I look to the Welsh Government to support our motion today and to commit to improving the lives of carers of all ages in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I’m very pleased to take part in this vital debate. I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate forward. I don’t know whether I've mentioned before that I have been a GP for some time, and I've had to deal increasingly with the kinds of situations that have been mentioned already, and also recognising that I’m still an honorary vice president of the Forget Me Not dementia clubs in Swansea, and, for several years in the past, I’ve been involved in the Alzheimer’s Society in Swansea and Crossroads—Caring for Carers in Swansea and Neath.

So, we have heard the figures. We’ve heard about the dedicated work by carers, and the vital work, indeed, by carers of all ages. And what we’re talking about here is informal carers, of course. We have a system of formal care, employed carers, but, essentially, this afternoon we’re talking about informal carers, who aren’t paid. We’re talking about what Angela Burns was saying, about kindness, natural kindness, because that’s what we’re talking about here—we have our statutory services such as the health service, social services, but those statutory services are entirely dependent on informal, unpaid carers, as we’ve heard, or the system would simply fall apart—about families and so on who have to care for their loved ones, and delight and take pride in their ability to care for their loved ones, and want to do that, but want more support, and, indeed, training to be able to deal with those difficult situations that they face from time to time.

Now, of course, the social care system is under pressure because of the effects of austerity, with insufficient funds, which raises the threshold to receive statutory care from local government. You have to have a very serious illness now to receive homecare, and, in terms of the health service, our GP surgeries are full of people who are in their 80s. Twenty years ago, it was very rare to see someone in their 80s, because there weren’t that many people in their 80s. But now our surgeries are full of people in their 80s, which is a cause for celebration of the success of the health service, but these people often have several illnesses and they have to remain in their home now. And, of course, the care is in their home as well. The pressure then falls on the shoulders of the husband or wife, who are also elderly, as we’ve already heard.

So, that’s why—. And, in talking with people who have to deal with these situations, and indeed want to deal with these situations of illness in the home, they want their loved ones to remain at home, but they also want to know more about the situation. They want training, as we’ve heard— the need for morphine injections and so on. That’s a relatively common situation, and people want to know how to do that. They don’t always want to call for the doctor or the nurse—they want to provide the care themselves—but they’re concerned about whether they’re doing the right thing or not—they don’t know. There is a genuine need for that specialist support and training, so that they feel more comfortable in their ability to care for people at home, without thinking, ‘Oh, maybe I’m doing the wrong thing.’ They need that information and the training.

Of course, naturally, there are excellent examples of support available from the voluntary sector, and not just from those groups that I’ve already mentioned, such as the Alzheimer’s Society and so on, but also Age Cymru, and specifically these Forget Me Not Clubs in Swansea—providing a cup of tea to show support to carers, just to give some respite for a few hours to those who have dementia and those who care for them to be able to go out together and to have some respite from the pressures that face them at home. And we’ve heard about the initiatives that support our young carers as well.

The clock is ticking, but there is also a need for greater respite services. When you’re in a situation of pressure at home, yes, you do receive some information from the nurse or from the doctor, but the pressure of having to care is around the clock, as we've heard, and what you want and need is respite. There’s a need for greater respite, both formal and informal. There are those in the voluntary sector that can provide that respite—just sitting with someone for a few hours. That’s what Crossroads does, for example, just to enable someone to go out to the shops. The pressure is so great. People need that respite just to deal with the situation. 

But mainly—this is the point that I wanted to make in concluding—there is that need for more information, to give more training, informal and formal, to those who provide care in the home to enable them to cope with the situation better. It’s difficult enough as it is without them being concerned as to whether they’re always doing the right thing or not. Thank you.

It is clear that carers play a vital role in our society. Whether it is financially or socially, the contribution made by carers simply cannot be understated. Not only are more people caring, but they are caring for longer. And the number of people needing care and those needing care for longer periods of time has increased significantly. It is imperative therefore that we recognise the extent to which our economy relies on unpaid care provided by families and friends.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm hearing all these colleagues here. My wife has been disabled for the last 12 years and very recently she had a stroke. No carer—I and my family are looking after her day after day. What we do, we put, actually, her medicine, which she has to take five times a day, in different pots, put the timings on it, and then, when I come here, I put an alarm on her mobile phone and the mobile near her. She has problems getting up in the morning—that is another thing. She cannot get up. For the last 12 years, I haven't seen a holiday, the reason being I can't leave her alone. She looks as fit as a fiddle, but in a real sense she's totally disabled. Her body takes a lot of medicine a day. As a matter of fact, I can imagine—. What carers are doing in this country is one of the most noble jobs, unpaid, for their loved ones. I don't think the nation can pay them enough, with youngsters between 12 and 18—one in 20 of our youngsters are actually missing school because they are caring for their loved ones. I am sure my daughter—actually, when she comes home, then I go on Assembly tours and other things. Otherwise, I cannot leave the country.

If just a small proportion of people providing care were no longer able to do so, the cost burden would be substantial. This debate this afternoon is about supporting carers so they are able to continue to do the vital work that we value so highly. I wish to address my remarks this afternoon to one aspect of this support: the right to flexible, high-quality respite. If you are a carer looking after a family member or friend, it is highly rewarding but also extremely demanding. A break, even if just for a few days, can boost your energy levels and enthusiasm. Just knowing that you are able to escape for a break is a great incentive, particularly when you are confident that the person you care for will be well looked after in your absence.

But, as Carers Trust recently told the Finance Committee, it can be particularly difficult for carers to access respite care, despite their right to do so. The trust went on to suggest that funding for short breaks and respite should be ring-fenced by local authorities as a part of a long-term funding stream. This would be co-ordinated by the third sector and delivered in partnership with local authorities and local health boards. Carers Trust estimates that a carers well-being fund, similar to the short breaks fund in Scotland, would be an invest-to-save preventative measure. They claim—I quote—investing

'£1.4 million a year would...generate over 53,000 hours of additional breaks for carers'.

This would have a huge impact on their health and well-being but also the sustainability of caring for increasingly complex needs at home. In return for a relatively small investment, this fund

'would have the long-term benefit of helping mitigate against additional or unsustainable demand on local health and social care services.'

I recognise the Welsh Government is committed to introducing and developing a national respite strategy. They have pledged £3 million of additional funding to support local authorities to provide respite care. But progress against the commitment has been slow and we do not yet know how this funding has been used by local authorities. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, an impact assessment published by the department of health in England in October 2014 suggested that every £1 spent on supporting carers would save councils £1.47 in replacement care costs and benefit the wider health system by £7.88. Carers are doing more than ever to support others. It is for us to ensure that they get the support and recognition they need and deserve in Wales. Thank you.

Like many colleagues here today, I too have made my pledge to do what I can to support and to promote the work of carers during Carers Week 2018. So, I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate today. As has been said, there are 370,000 carers in Wales, and that constitutes 12 per cent of the population, which is the highest proportion anywhere in the UK. We know that carers providing support saves the state the equivalent of over £8 billion per year. That's a staggering amount, highlighting the debt that we owe carers. It is only right that we recognise this by ensuring that we meet the needs of carers themselves.

I am glad that this duty is enshrined in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. I will be supporting the amendment in the name of the leader of the house that reflects this. I'm also glad that the role of carers and, most importantly, the need to continue to support and invest in their unpaid and all-too-often-unrecognised work is included in 'A Healthier Wales'. In achieving the important goals contained in the Welsh Government's long-term plan for health and social care, we must be careful that there are no unintended consequences placing more on the shoulders of carers. We must also remember that becoming a carer is something that can happen to just about any one of us. As Carers Wales reminds us, every day, 6,000 people become carers. Carers Week, which importantly coincides with 2018 Empathy Day, is the chance for us to put carers centre stage and make sure that we can respond to what can be a daunting and isolating experience.

I want to turn now to address the specific challenges faced by young carers. This is an area where I do have some professional experience. As a secondary school teacher, I was involved in providing pastoral care and support to young carers, and I know all too well the impact that their responsibilities can have upon their academic studies, their social lives, their confidence and their well-being. All too often, the challenge for teachers is actually identifying those who are carers, because children can come to you or be sent to you for a range of different issues, but it's only when you investigate and you strip away the layers of problems that you find underneath that they are actually caring for a relative. They don't classify themselves as carers; they just think that they're doing what needs to be done to help to support their families.

So, I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has worked closely with Carers Trust Wales on the development of a step-by-step guide for schools on young carers. It has been designed to help identify and support carers in educational settings as early as possible. I also look forward to the thematic review Estyn will undertake into how young carers are identified and supported at school and in colleges that Ministers have announced.

In my own county borough of Rhondda Cynon Taf, every secondary school has a designated young carers champion, and the process has started to introduce similar roles into primary schools too, ensuring that every child and young person who is a carer has an easily identified person to whom they can go for support and advice. And that really is so important. I'm fortunate—

Will you take an intervention on that, if you've got time? Thank you. The carers champions that you're talking about within schools—do you foresee that part of their role will be to ensure that they actually get the formal assessment by local authorities or whoever the work is outsourced to and that those carers' needs are then met? And then do you also, as a backbencher of the governing party, agree that that information should be published?

Well, carers champions have more of an informal role of supporting young people and then, of course, there are other services that can come into play, such as social services, really. So, this is an on-the-ground, grass-roots kind of response providing that day-to-day support and care.

Within my own constituency, I'm fortunate to have a really strong young carers project. Action for Children's RCT young carers project does some really important, innovative and positive work. At present, they provide services to 79 five to 18-year-olds across the county borough. These are just children caring for parents, as a separate project provides support to sibling carers. It could just be the tip of the iceberg as there could be many more children and young people providing care who have not yet been identified. The project provides age-appropriate group activities in community settings, giving children and young people the chance to get away, have a break, have some fun and just be children. They also provide emotional and practical support. That could be in terms of schooling but also practical things. Some stories of the tremendous young people they help are overwhelming, like the young child who helped her mother make up bottles, change nappies and wash clothes for their newborn sibling. The mother had had a stroke giving birth, and that young carer was just three years old.

Whilst the project aims to support young carers and families to get the best service, I want to close by placing those young carers centre stage. One of the ways in which RCT has helped them is by setting up Young Carers Aloud, their award-winning choir. Their songs are all available on YouTube. I would encourage AMs to listen to this. As their lyrics say, what they would like is for people to help them to get there, not some day, but now.

Thank you. I call on the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue, and I’d like to thank my fellow Assembly Members for all their contributions this afternoon. The strength of the debate shows clearly that this Government has to prioritise ensuring that carers do receive the support that they need to live positive lives.

I'll do my best to address the main points raised, though time, as always, will be the enemy here, because there's a lot of amendments and a lot of points have been raised.

I'd like to start with amendment 4. Unpaid carers, indeed, provide 96 per cent of care in Wales at a value of in excess of £8 billion. This is quite incredible; it shows the hidden economic value that is added to the compassion and the love and the care that they show. It does concern me that some carers indeed do feel unvalued, but we're increasingly talking to carers now who do feel valued, who do feel that not only Welsh Government but partners on the ground are taking notice of them and that we're taking really proactive steps to ensure that they can access practical support to maintain their own health and well-being as well.

Our transformative legislation, which has been mentioned, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, gave carers an equal right to support as the person they care for. All carers in Wales have a right to a carers assessment to identify the support they need and local authorities must meet eligible needs. And if I can turn to Suzy's point there: Suzy, I don't know if you're aware of the publication of the first annual report on data relating to adults receiving care support, which was published in October 2017. It stated that, from 6 April 2016 to 31 March 2017, 6,207 assessments of need for support were undertaken, leading to provision of 1,823 support plans, but we're also currently working with the local authorities and stakeholders to develop new, more robust data for 2019-20 onwards. We're also about to commission an independent evaluation of the social services and well-being Act—[Interruption.] I'll turn to other aspects in a moment. I'm going to be limited on time, but if I can, I'll give way in a moment—

Very quickly, thank you for that information. Of course, what we didn't get from that report was a clear understanding of what 'assessment' meant, so I was encouraged to hear your following remarks.

Indeed. Thank you very much. Thank you for that intervention.

Now, last year—. By the way, this assessment also includes the respite care reference in point 5 of the original motion, and I've been taking actions to ensure that these enhanced rights are realised, and that's what this is about. Now, last year, I announced £3 million of new, recurring funding to support local authorities to provide additional respite for carers, including young carers, who have been mentioned. And with regard to amendment 7, this supports local authorities to develop additional respite care based on the needs of carers in their area. They are best placed to judge how this should be used. But, also, regional partnership boards can also use the integrated care fund to support carers. We've made £50 million revenue funding available in 2018-19, and carers are recognised as one of the core groups that this funding should go towards.

In relation to point 4 of the original motion, Welsh Government is committed to monitoring the impact of the social services and well-being Act, as I said, and publishing data and making it more robust. The first annual report I referred to showed that not enough carers are currently accessing assessments. So, knowing this, and based on engagement with carers and the representative organisations, I published three national priorities for carers in Wales. They were: supporting life alongside caring, identifying and recognising carers, and providing information, advice and assistance to carers. Alongside that, I committed in excess of £1 million in 2018-19 to support progress against these national priorities. But, in addition, a ministerial advisory group for carers will provide now a national forum to steer the delivery of improvements for carers and provide a cross-sector response to the challenges that carers face. With reference to amendment 5, and in recognition of the issues affecting young carers, we have invited Children in Wales, the organisation that Welsh Government fund to run the young carers network, and the children's commissioner, to join this group. I will be attending the first meeting, which will meet this month, and we'll be receiving regular updates from the ministerial group.

Now, the impacts of caring are seen in many various parts of people's lives. So, support for carers has got to be cross-departmental, cross-Government. So, with reference to point 3 of the original motion, we know that young carers face additional barriers to education, and they include financial barriers. So, I am therefore delighted that changes made following the Diamond review of higher education funding and student finance means that from 2018-19 every student will be entitled to financial support equivalent to the national living wage while they study. But Welsh Government has also been working, as has been mentioned by Vikki and others, closely with schools and colleges to ensure that young carers, who may have more absences than their peers, are not disadvantaged in accessing educational grants. Carers can be confident that they will receive appropriate financial support whilst studying.

Moving now to amendment 3, we do recognise the difficulties all carers can face in balancing a job against the demands of being an unpaid carer. We have awarded funding to Carers Wales in 2018-19 for the new Employers for Carers Wales hub, which I was pleased to launch this morning. This project will support employers big and small across Wales to create a more carer-friendly workplace through one-to-one support, training and events. For young adult carers entering the workforce, the support offered by Careers Wales should be bespoke to the individual. For young carers, advice should take account of caring responsibilities whilst focusing on options available—raising aspirations, building confidence and supporting longer-term planning.

If I can turn to amendment 6, young carers and young adult carers have expressed a strong interest in the young carers ID card. Now, Welsh Government is currently funding Carers Trust—. I was delighted, by the way, to meet with the YMCA with Bethan last week—I'll turn to that in a moment. But we are currently funding Carers Trust to support the development of these cards. The ID cards, which will prevent young people having to repeatedly disclose information about their role as a carer and explain, and to support them to access support, will be designed with young carers and tested with professionals, including teachers, doctors and pharmacists. [Interruption.] If I can just turn to some of the detail, because it's—. The YMCA piece of work was very useful in itself, but this is beyond that. It's about providing Welsh Government with a range of options for the design of the national ID card, developed with young carers, tested with a range of professionals, producing the bilingual electronic toolkit, guidance and resources, facilitating a quarterly national round-table for carers services to enable troubleshooting, peer-to-peer support, learning, facilitating the national process for young carers to have the ability to anonymously feed back their experiences of applying for and using an ID card, and providing quarterly reports then to Welsh Government and carer services—[Interruption.] I'm against time, Bethan. I'm really sorry. I'd love to, but I'm against time. We're promoting the young carers ID card through network partners and social media channels, and regular progress reports will be presented for the attention of the ministerial advisory group for carers.

Now, a couple of other things in closing. I've spoken to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, who's very keen to work with me to examine existing and potential future support available to help young carers in Wales with transport costs and to explore whether this could be linked, indeed, to the ID card. So, I would urge Members to support amendment 1 to the main motion, but also, in the spirit that this debate has been held in, and in a spirit of cross-party support in this Carers Week, amendments 4, 6, 8 and 9. Some are not perfect, but the spirit and the intention is good and we can support them.

I'm up against time, so—

Carry on. Go on.

Deputy Presiding Officer, we cannot afford to sit back on the issue of supporting carers. The physical and mental well-being of those who contribute most to our society shouldn’t be at the bottom of our list of priorities.

They shouldn't be at the bottom of the list; they should be at the top of the list. So, I'm looking forward to working with the ideas that Members have brought forward today—ideas that we are currently working on, and the ministerial advisory group—to make real the way that we support carers, young and old, going forward, because we know that their compassion, their love, their care is invaluable, and the economic impact if we had to replace them would be simply unaffordable. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. Can I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate?

Thank you to everybody for their contribution in this, Carers Week 2018. As Suzy Davies said at the beginning, we have to improve the lives of the 11 per cent of the population that we're talking about today. And she said for the Welsh Government to refuse to be scrutinised is shameful, following their failure in practice to guide councils on what the statutory guidelines in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 actually mean. No surprise, she said, that the Welsh Conservatives' proposal to support young adult carers has gone down better with young adult carers than the Welsh Government, although I do note the Minister's comments at the end. And, of course, she thanked those who care for carers.

Bethan Sayed raised a number of very relevant points. She referred to young carers and zero-hours contracts—and it is a deep concern that Wales has the highest level of non-permanent contracts, including zero-hour contracts, which are appropriate for some, but too many are forced into them when it's the wrong route for them—the guidance, training and access to respite services being ad hoc; the importance of transport to young carers; barriers to young carers' access to medication to help their own loved ones; and the need to hold the Welsh Government to account.

Caroline Jones asked, 'Who cares for the carers?' And many are struggling—two out of three don't get enough sleep, and there are too many suffering depression, and Age Cymru identifying wide variations in care. She said that we need to do more to support unpaid carers and enable young carers to combine caring with access to education and training.

Angela Burns gave a heartfelt 'thank you' to carers in Wales without whose contribution our society would grind to a halt. She talked about the kindness of strangers and then she referred to a couple of cases, particularly a pupil not getting homework in on time, but the school not having any idea about her caring responsibility, and another young carer who was told to get rid of their dog when they were successfully otherwise rehoused.

Jenny Rathbone talked about prudent healthcare, meaning that we must value our carers, and the need for long-term arrangements after a parent carer's death, and, key, that we need to work in co-production with carers.

Janet Finch-Saunders praised young carers, but then highlighted the work of older carers, where many are disabled or with long-term health problems themselves, and many living in isolation and loneliness. She pointed out that councils may be acting unlawfully. She talked about lack of data on carers' assessments, the need for flexible and high-quality respite, and that investing in carers could save the health system £7.88 for each £1 spent. 

Dr Dai referred to statutory services being entirely dependent upon informal unpaid carers, about GP surgeries now being full of older people requiring care in the home and therefore the need to support their carers with information and support, and key there, again—the work of the voluntary sector in providing support.

Mohammad Asghar talked about more people caring and caring for longer. He spoke movingly about his own personal experience with his wonderful wife, and I say that because I know her and she is wonderful. He talked about the well-being benefits of flexible high-quality respite and he said that we don't know how local authorities are using the funding they're receiving. 

Vikki Howells spoke of the need to avoid unintended consequences, about the increased burden on carers, young carers who don't classify themselves as carers, and the role of young carers champions in schools.

Then, Huw Irranca-Davies, the Minister responding for the Government, said that the social services and well-being Act gave carers an equal right to support as the person they cared for, that all have the right to assessment and all local authorities must meet that requirement. He talked about recurring respite funding to local authorities, how he'd invited Children in Wales and the children's commissioner to join his ministerial group, and that from 2018-19, carers can be confident that they will receive financial support whilst studying. He talked about funding the development of carers ID cards, particularly relevant for teachers, doctors and pharmacists. I would point out that this was piloted successfully, with the support of the children's commissioner, by Barnardo's Flintshire. Many years ago, they came here, they presented on it and nothing happened. So, I hope that, this time, history doesn't repeat itself. Because as the Minister concluded, we cannot afford to sit back on the issue of supporting carers.

Now, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 Part 2 code of practice says that

'Fundamental to the whole approach and system is that practitioners co-produce with children, young people, carers and families, and with adults, carers, families…so that people are equal partners in the design and delivery of their care. This will include determining what matters to them and the want to achieve. Local authorities must not make any judgments based on preconceptions of a person’s circumstance.'

And, again:

'People must be involved in the design and delivery of services'.

However, I know that the Minister is familiar with the Age Alliance Wales winter newsletter—I think they subsequently met him to discuss it. Referring to the social services and well-being Act, they said that the realities arising from the Act are not meeting initial expectations; that there's an ongoing lack of advocacy provision; that 'what matters' conversations are not happening as anticipated; that local authority information advice services are still seen as problematic in many parts of Wales; that third sector representatives on regional partnership boards have reported feeling excluded; that the third sector is being seen as a bit player, with little or no strategic involvement and little input into programme planning; and that the needs of individuals still don't appear to be properly met in too many cases.

Judicial review proceedings last month relating to the failure to assess and then meet the needs of a young autistic adult and to take full account of her parent carer's willingness and ability to meet need was settled prior to full hearing only because Flintshire council agreed to provide a formal apology and make a damages award. This case highlights the importance of comprehensive assessments of people in need of care and support and their carers, in accordance with the legislation. And although this case was settled before a full hearing, it nonetheless provides a valuable insight into how this legislation is intended to be applied, but how, still, local authorities are getting it often very wrong.

Only yesterday, a Flintshire parent carer e-mailed me to say:

'As an autistic adult myself, I struggle to identify where lapses in duty are occurring.'

She referred to her own three children, two of whom are already diagnosed on the spectrum, and concluded:

'As school seems determined that the issues that the boys struggle with are not related to their autism, I'm utterly lost in terms of how to secure the support that they need.'

Another Flintshire parent carer e-mailed me during this debate, a parent of an autistic child with multiple unmet needs, and she said:

'I still haven't had a carer's assessment of my needs and my daughter's needs, despite my first requesting it in January 2014 and raising it repeatedly.'

We know that the integrated autism strategy interim evaluation said that the top-down approach, rather than co-production, has stifled the way forward.

I've got many other examples in many other counties. I could have gone on to Wrexham and Conwy and a range of different conditions where things are not working as the legislation intends, because too many people in power don't want to share that power and are cherry-picking from the guidance, the codes and the legislation. Unless the Welsh Government is prepared to actually rise to the box, stand and confront them, and make them acknowledge what this involves, with appropriate training and support when necessary, then stories like this, sadly, are going to continue.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.