The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Darren Millar.

Item 7—it's a good job we've got some time, isn't it? Item 7 is the debate on the Wales Governance Centre report, 'Imprisonment in Wales: a Factfile'. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, Alun Davies. 

Motion NDM6826 Julie James

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales notes the Wales Governance Centre Report, 'Imprisonment in Wales—a Factfile', published on the 5th June 2018.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Members will be aware that on 5 June this year the Wales Governance Centre published, 'Imprisonment in Wales: a Factfile', which highlights Wales-specific data across the prison system. Can I state at the outset that I'm very grateful to the Wales Governance Centre and to Dr Robert Jones for this work? We recognise that it is a snapshot rather than an in-depth analysis, but it also tells us a great deal about the prison service and about the way it serves people across Wales.

We also know that this report is a very timely report. We've seen all too often over recent months controversies over safety and performance. I was listening this morning to news that the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are allowing pepper spray to be used in our prisons—not possibly the best way to respond to some of the difficulties being faced on the prison estate either in Wales or elsewhere.

But the report also does highlight the importance of having Wales-only data in understanding the impact of justice policy and practice on people in this country. All too often, when we look at the justice system, we look at it on a UK basis—Darren Millar seeks to make the point in his amendment—because it isn't a UK system; it is an England and Wales system. And whilst we are happy to note the existence of the UK Government's policy, it would be wrong and improper, I think, for us to seek to imply that there is a UK solution to this.

One of the things that I've found in fulfilling this role over the last year is that devolution matures, which means that we face new questions, new challenges and new understanding of how devolved and reserved matters interact with each other. And I hope that, in justice policy, we're beginning to see some of that understanding.

Some of the key findings of the report include that prisons in Wales are performing less well than prisons in England on a range of safety measures. Since 2010, the number of recorded self-harm incidents and prisoner assaults in Wales have increased at a higher rate than in prisons in England. Despite an increase in prison capacity in Wales, in 2017, nearly 40 per cent of all Welsh prisoners were being held in English prisons. In a large number of cases, Welsh prisoners are placed in establishments far from home. Welsh prisoners were held in 118 different prisons in 2017.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I know from my own constituency, this report describes that there are 52 prisoners being held from Blaenau Gwent, and those 52 prisoners are being held in 20 prisons, not simply in Wales or local to Wales in the south-west of England, but in prisons across the whole of England—in northern England, north-east England and north-west England as well. There may well occasionally be reasons why people are placed in a particular facility, but this is not about individuals; this is about a system that isn't working for people across Wales.

Much of the data we've seen published in June makes for unhappy reading, but nowhere is that more true than when we describe the place of women in the system. The number of Welsh women handed immediate custodial sentences has increased by almost a fifth since 2011. The majority are sentenced to immediate custody and convicted of non-violent offences. Three quarters of all Welsh women receiving immediate custodial sentences in 2016 were given sentences of less than six months. The number of Welsh children in custody has fallen by 72 per cent since 2010; however, a large number of them are being held in establishments across the border in England. So this, as a whole, is not a picture that many of us will want to see.

We recognise that many of the reasons for this are historic. We recognise that we do not have the secure estate that we would require in Wales. And this is why rejecting amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar is actually very, very important. If we look at the prison estate, the secure estate that we have inherited, this is not a secure estate that is designed for the needs of people in Wales. Up until a couple of years ago, up until 18 months ago, we had no secure accommodation anywhere beyond the M4 corridor. We didn't have any secure facilities serving north Wales at all. Is that what the people of north Wales want from the service? And then when we do see a prison opened in Wrexham, it is opened with a capacity far, far beyond that which is required in the region. It is not there to serve Wales's needs; it's not there to serve the communities of north Wales; it's not there to serve the interests and the needs of the people we represent here in this Chamber.

I'm very grateful to you for taking the intervention. The Welsh Government supported the establishment of HMP Berwyn in Wrexham, so I'm astonished to find you now criticising the significant investment and the skilled jobs that have been brought to north-east Wales as a result the UK Government's decision.

I'm talking about a system and a structure of secure estate, and I'm asking the question: does that serve Wales's interests? And I think you would be very hard pressed to find the answer 'yes' in examining that.

And if you do look at the secure estate we have here in south Wales, along the M4 corridor, I want to see significant investment in that secure estate. If you walk into either Swansea or Cardiff, you will see conditions that I do not believe we want to see in this country today. I believe that we should be investing in a secure estate that respects human beings, that respects the need to hold people in custody, but also has a very clear focus on the community and on rehabilitation. I hope that all sides of this Chamber will agree that what we need is a secure estate in Wales that is modern, that is up to date, that serves the needs of the community as a whole. And we will see as well, if you look at the youth offending institution we have in Park—an institution for young offenders in the centre of an adult prison—that that is not the sort of facility that we require and we need if we're serious about seeing prison as not only a punitive process, but a means of intervention and rehabilitation as well. And this is why there is no UK solution to this and why I invite Members to vote against amendment 2 to this motion: because we need a holistic and coherent structure to justice policy in Wales.

I have already argued, Deputy Presiding Officer, from this place, that the Welsh Government wants to see the devolution of policing to Wales to ensure that policing, alongside all other public services, are managed as a single, coherent system, and the Welsh Government will continue to make that case, but we also need to have a prison and a penal policy that meets the needs of Wales and is coherent with other services. When I look at the system, when I visit prisons, when I speak to prisoners, when I speak to families and when I speak to those people working in the system, I speak all too often to people who have been failed by that system, whether they are being held in custody or whether they are the people holding those people in custody. I have spoken to too many people working in the system who go into work day in, day out knowing that the system itself does not deliver for the people who are being held in custody on the secure estate in Wales. That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable today and we cannot, as a Government and as a National Assembly, as a Parliament for this country, stand back and simply say, 'That is not our responsibility.' I believe we need to argue for a different policy and a different approach.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I am looking, at the moment, at how we work with the prison and probation service. I have tabled a debate in Government time in two weeks' time for us to discuss the future of the probation service. I've been working with the Ministry of Justice and with the prison and probation service in order to deliver a blueprint for female offenders and for youth offending in Wales. In due course, I will ask the National Assembly to endorse that policy and that approach. But all too often, at the moment, we find ourselves in a situation whereby neither the United Kingdom Government nor the Welsh Government is able to deliver a coherent approach to policy and a coherent and holistic approach to dealing with people who are in the criminal justice system. The report of the Wales Governance Centre provides us with a snapshot with the understanding of that. It is our role, as the elected representatives of the people of Wales, to articulate a way forward. Thank you.

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move both amendments, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Mark.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes the UK Government's agenda on prison reform.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Recognises the need for a UK-wide solution to the issues identified in the Wales Governance Centre report, 'Imprisonment in Wales—a Factfile'.

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Diolch. Well, as this report shows, almost two thirds of Welsh offenders are being held in Wales and 70 per cent of all offenders held in Wales had an address in Wales prior to entering custody.

In referring to the extent of distance problems facing Welsh people in prisons, it provides the example of male offenders from Flintshire being held at 44 different prisons in England. However, over three quarters of these were imprisoned in adjacent north-west England, and over 40 per cent in nearby Her Majesty's Prison Altcourse. On my own previous visits to HMP Altcourse, I've seen the targeted work of their north Wales resettlement unit. Of course, it would be prejudicial and counter-productive if offenders were segregated according to where they previously lived. Further, such an approach would not take account of the practical considerations applying when decisions are made about where a prisoner is to be held. Our amendments, therefore, note the UK Government's agenda on prison reform and recognise the need for a cross-border solution to the issues identified in the Wales Governance Centre report. The UK Government's reforms are not about increasing capacity but about replacing ageing and ineffective prisons with buildings fit for today's demands, and to share the wider economic benefits, not just in England, which is why they were welcomed predominantly in Wrexham.

Contrary to the Wales Governance Centre's report, the UK Government does not continue to place faith in the one-size-fits-all model for the superprison. For example, Berwyn prison in Wrexham, a training and resettlement prison, is divided into three houses, each divided into eight communities plus a small care and support unit. In terms of distance travelled, HMP Berwyn is 152 miles from Pembroke, 140 from Cardiff, 81 from Aberystwyth, 77 from Caernarfon, 70 from Birmingham, 54 from Manchester, 40 from Liverpool and 13 from Chester.

Following his recent visit to Berwyn, Labour's Wrexham MP, Ian Lucas, stated that he was, quote,

 'very pleased that there were constructive signs for the future.'

He reported that the constructive work taking place in the prison had included offenders

'working on different projects such as conducting phone surveys and other meaningful work which can only help in providing training for jobs when sentences end.'

He added that he was delighted that the kitchen service had been helping in the community with voluntary projects and that

'Particularly outstanding was the gardening work.'

Instead of five community prisons for women in England and Wales, the UK Government has announced that it will trial five residential centres to help women offenders with issues such as finding work and drug rehabilitation, as well as accommodating children, where those on community sentences are less likely to commit further crimes than those who've served short jail terms. As the executive director of Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service for Wales told the Welsh Affairs Select Committee last month:

'we do not have the provision in Wales to deal with lots of different things…an example: we do not have…anywhere to put high-security offenders or anywhere to house terrorists.'

She added:

'we have a system in England and Wales that is not designed solely on the basis of geographical location. It is also designed on the basis of the needs of the prisoner, and they can be geographically dispersed…You have to weigh…what the regime, the provision and the intervention are that you want to give the individual, versus closeness to home.'

You cannot, she said,

'compare all prisons to all prisons; you have to do prisons in comparator groups…both Swansea and Cardiff are performing better than their comparator groups against safety and order…On…self-harm and violence, both Swansea and Cardiff…are performing better. Usk and Prescoed have some of the best levels of performance in their systems.'

Most of Wales's population lives near England and criminal activity does not recognise national boundaries.

Scottish prison services are devolved, but the issues they face are broadly similar to those outlined in this report. Scotland's chief inspector of prisons highlighted recently an increase in instances of psychoactive substances, a lack of capacity within treatment programmes, and work needed to reduce female prisoners in custody.

Unlike English prisons, Welsh prisons do not offer integrated drug treatment. The Welsh Government is also responsible for health and education of offenders within the Welsh prison estate, yet the report does not include outcomes for offenders on the Welsh estate, nor of Welsh prisoners in English prisons. And the ridiculousness of calls for the criminal justice system to be devolved are exposed by the First Minister's claim that dangerous offenders could be sent across the UK after devolution to address the lack of category A prisons in Wales. What a nonsense.

I'd like to start with the amendment. I'll take the second one first. It's remarkable how anyone could read this report and think that UK-wide solutions are going to address the specific Welsh issues in this report. It's the sort of amendment that looks like it's been tabled by somebody who didn't bother even reading the report, and I'll say no more on that.

The first amendment adds nothing to the motion. There is, of course, a UK agenda on prison reform, but it's an agenda of underfunding, overcrowding and warehousing that isn't worth even noting outside the context of arguing for Wales to do things differently.

I welcome this timely report from the Wales Governance Centre. It's hard to believe that we're still having this debate as to whether Wales should have control over its own criminal justice system. Not only that, but the Westminster establishment continues to believe that giant prisons are good for prisoners as well as for economic development when neither is true. There are obvious conclusions that can be drawn from this report. Having no control over criminal justice has led to the situation where Westminster sees Wales becoming a net importer of prisoners. At the same time, we lack the facilities to ensure that Welsh prisoners can serve their sentences closer to home and be properly rehabilitated. Having no control has also meant Westminster not recognising Welsh needs. All the data gathered for this report had to be obtained through freedom of information requests. Doesn't that say it all?

Welsh language needs, which are clearly crucial to rehabilitation, are often not even recognised, let alone catered for when those responsible for collecting the data don't know or care how many prisoners are Welsh speakers. Westminster has had 11 years since the Welsh Affairs Committee asked the Ministry of Justice to collect and publish this information, and still nothing. I wonder why.

The current prison set-up is discriminatory against Welsh women, and I've made this point on numerous occasions. Women are sent further away. They will be separated from their children for longer. They will be more likely to reoffend and they will fail to receive the support that they need when returning home. This report has also shown that 75 per cent of women who obtain custodial sentences in Wales receive a sentence of less than six months for a non-violent offence. This demonstrates that the majority of women are not dangerous people, yet we're imposing more severe punishment on women offenders and placing them into a faraway environment that makes rehabilitation much more challenging.

We can also see that prisoners who stay in Wales and are closer to family—again, crucial to preventing reoffending—face an environment that sees record numbers of self-harm and assault. This is despite not one of the prisons concerned being a category A prison, where we would expect to see the more dangerous and violent prisoners housed. This tells me that we've got too many people in prison with serious mental health problems. Should they all be in prison? I doubt it very much. Is this related to the question of quality of prison management? Well, having set out a total of 212 recommendations within its previous inspections in Wales, HMIP's most recent findings reported that only 77 had been fully achieved. Why would management bother implementing these recommendations anyway? It's not as if anyone from the MOJ is actually bothering to check. No-one is watching.

I presume that the reason that Westminster has resisted the devolution of the criminal justice system for so long is because they genuinely believe that they can do a better job, or maybe they're afraid that Wales would do something different and focus on rehabilitation and the reduction of reoffending rates, which is what I think the majority of us in this Chamber and in our country would want to see.

But it's no good just blaming Westminster when we still have a First Minister who has been ambiguous at best about taking responsibility for the criminal justice system and whose Government's initial reaction to the Port Talbot prison was to negotiate the price for the land required with the MOJ. And I'd like to pay tribute to all those campaigners for their victory on that front. It remains the case that we have a Government whose instinct is against taking responsibility. As a former probation officer, I know that the first stage in anybody's rehabilitation is that you have to take responsibility for yourself. The Welsh Government needs to begin its own rehabilitation and seek and take the responsibility so that we can correct the injustices that are highlighted in this report.

I welcome this debate today, and the opportunity to discuss these very important matters regarding prisons in Wales and the Wales Governance Centre report.

We have a rising prison population in Wales, as the report states, which is also the position in England. Similarly, we have rising numbers of assaults, self-harm and disturbances in prison. We have cross-border issues where people from Wales are travelling distances to be imprisoned in England, making the visits by services and family much more difficult and making the rehabilitative effort that much more difficult accordingly, and similarly with people who live in England coming to prisons in Wales. So, with that sort of background and those sorts of problems, I very much welcome the Welsh Government's Commission on Justice in Wales, and the consideration of a distinctive approach to penal policy that Welsh Government has stated it wants to consider very carefully and, hopefully, take forward.

I think it's fair to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that if we look at UK Government's prisons policy, it's nothing short of a horror story. Very many people who are in prison simply shouldn't be there. Imprisonment isn't used as a last resort. Very many people incarcerated have mental health problems. They have drug and alcohol problems. They have very low skills. The effort to help these people is not one that should be taking place in prisons; they shouldn't be in prison in the first place. And, of course, many of them have short sentences, which makes rehabilitation very difficult, because they're not in prison long enough, really, for a proper rehabilitative experience to take place. And if they only receive those short sentences, again that raises the question: why was there a need to imprison them at all? So, given the understaffing that's also an issue, and the overcrowding, we know that meaningful rehabilitation in prison is just not taking place on the scale or to the degree that's necessary. And what's the result of that? More reoffending, more victims of crime, more recidivism. You know, it really is a very counterproductive and wrong-headed vicious circle that is happening at the moment.

So, in my view, Dirprwy Lywydd, the sooner Welsh Government has more responsibility for the criminal justice system, for prisons, the better. Because, I think as Leanne Wood rightly said, I'm confident that the consensus within this Chamber and politics in Wales would push us in a very different, much more productive direction, which was about keeping people out of prison, and then when people have to go to prison, not having the overcrowding and the lack of staffing that makes rehabilitation so difficult. So, we could have a system when people have to go to prison where they're properly rehabilitated, and when they're then released, they do not commit further crimes to the scale that currently happens.

So, if we look at the sort of picture we could have in Wales, Dirprwy Lywydd, I believe it would be much better for the people who are committing offences. It would be much better for victims of crime. And it would be much better for our communities and society generally, because we would have proper humane conditions and proper rehabilitation in our prisons. We would have far fewer people, as I say, coming out, committing further crimes. That would benefit them, it would benefit their families, their communities and society in general. So, if we look at matters in the round, I think most people in this Chamber, Dirprwy Lywydd, would come to the view that the sooner we get Welsh Government in charge of these matters and this Chamber determining scrutiny and policy, the better.

Thanks to the Minister for bringing today's debate, and I think there have been very interesting contributions from everyone so far. I agree with the Minister that we do need a rehabilitative system as well as a punitive system, and I look forward to reading his blueprint for female and youth offenders. Hopefully that will take the debate forward, and we can look at things in a little bit more detail. I'm not convinced, though, that we can't address the problems in the criminal justice system on a UK-wide basis. Mark Isherwood did raise the issue that there are similar problems in the Scottish prison service where the issue is devolved, so I think we do need to bear that in mind. 

Where I do disagree with the Conservatives, in terms of what they are doing on a UK-wide basis, is over the privatisation of the prison service. There's no real evidence that we've seen that supports the view that private prisons are run any better than those run by the prison service. In fact, the evidence tends to suggest the opposite. So, in UKIP, we certainly aren't in favour of any system of moving towards more private prisons. 

The points that several people have made I would tend to agree with: many people in prison are not violent and do not pose any physical menace to society at large, so we can agree that efforts should be made to rehabilitate those offenders who can be rehabilitated, as the cost to society as a whole may well be reduced if there is some form of relatively early intervention in the lives of these people.

In terms of female prisoners, we should consider the need for rehabilitation of them, of course, and it may well be the case that many of them do not need to be imprisoned in the first place. But, while we agree that we need to look at that, certainly, if there is a need to have a women's prison in Wales because of the difficulties of female prisoners being only able to be imprisoned in England, then we do have to look at possibly building that prison in Wales, and of course we're not averse to the idea of building more prisons if that is necessary for the safety of the community.

So, those are the broad points that I would like to make today, and thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Wales Governance Centre report on imprisonment in Wales underlines what many of us have been saying for many years: Wales is dependent upon English prisons. As a person who ran her own department in the prison service, I know that prison works, but only if it is properly funded and resourced. There is often no alternative to a custodial sentence, but custody is not just about public protection; it's also about ensuring the prisoner is helped to rehabilitate.

A large part of that rehabilitation depends upon maintaining close family ties. That link is vitally important and gives prisoners, very often, an insight into the impact their actions have upon their family and friends, but also helps ensure they have a safety net, a place to return upon their release. Unfortunately, some prisoners do not have a family, and indeed some are often simply released with a black bag full of meagre belongings, with no home to go to. This is simply not rehabilitation, and it's not good enough. It only helps the revolving door that most prisoners—a lot of prisoners—face when they have nowhere else to turn to.

Sadly, we don't have enough prison places in Wales to ensure that Welsh prisoners are imprisoned close to home. Wales has 4,747 prisoners, yet the five prisons in Wales have an operational capacity for 3,700 prisoners. We have no women's prison in Wales and not a single category A prison. This results in a large number of Welsh prisoners serving their sentences in England, hundreds of miles from home.

The prisons we do have are overcrowded. HMP Swansea is the third most overcrowded prison in the UK. When it was built it was designed to hold around 240 prisoners. It currently holds twice that number. With the exception of the new prison in north Wales, all of our prisons are overcrowded. Cardiff is operating at 150 per cent of capacity, as is Usk. Parc is operating at just over capacity. Having worked for many years at HMP Parc, I can tell you that overcrowding is hard on both staff and prisoners alike.

As the Wales Governance Centre report highlights, assaults on prisoners and staff have sky-rocketed. Last year there were around 6,500 assaults on staff, 761 of which resulted in a prison officer being hospitalised. This is leading to yet another crisis in our prisons: lack of staff. The number of prison officers who quit just months after completing their training has risen exponentially. A third of prison officers quit within a year of starting, and we are also haemorrhaging experienced staff due to overcrowding and a lack of investment.

We have to build more prisons, with the emphasis and focus on rehabilitation. In particular, those prisoners with mental health issues need additional help. There are many prisoners, we understand, who should not be in prison and have simply been let down by society, particularly the homeless and those, as previously stated, with mental health issues. I have voiced my support for a new prison within my region, which will not only reduce the strain on Swansea and Parc, but also bring much needed jobs to the area—to one of the most deprived areas of the country.

I hope the Welsh Government will see this report as a wake-up call and will work with the UK Government to reduce overcrowding and underfunding in our prisons before it’s too late. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, Alun Davies, to reply to the debate?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'm grateful to all Members who've taken the time to contribute to the debate this afternoon.

This is an important debate for all of us, on all sides of this Chamber, because the way that we deal with the criminal justice system is fundamental to the way in which we order and manage our public services in Wales. And let me say this to Mark Isherwood: we need to do more than simply rehearse lines to take in this debate. We need to have a real debate about how we manage the criminal justice system. And that means a debate about how we provide health services on the secure estate, how we deliver education on the secure estate, how we ensure that there are in place the sorts of policies and approaches that can deal with issues like the substance abuse issues that you've raised, Mark, and also some of the issues of mental health that Leanne Wood raised in her contribution.

It is important that we are able to do that, and that is why the devolution of these matters isn't a dry academic debate. It isn't a matter for a seminar or a conversation in a university or something. This is a debate that matters to people and this is a debate the consequences of which will have a profound effect on people's lives up and down the country. We need to be able to have a coherent approach to substance abuse. We need to have a coherent approach to dealing with issues of mental health on the secure estate. And, at the moment, we are simply unable to do it. And what is worse, this, as far as I can see, is the only part of our responsibilities or the delivery of public services where not only is the Welsh Government unable to deliver the policies it would choose to do so because of a poor settlement, but also the United Kingdom Government is unable to do so. And, Mark, I understand the points that you're seeking to make, but, at the moment, we do not have a settlement where either Government responsible for the delivery of services in this country is able to deliver a coherent and holistic approach to policy. And the people who suffer are not the people who sit in places like this, but the people who are currently on the secure estate in Wales and those others across the criminal justice system. And I understand—and I hope that people won't simply see the Wales Governance report and conversations about the quality of facilities and the quality of investment in the estate as criticism of either the people who are working within the system or criticism of those who are seeking to do their best in very, very difficult circumstances.

We recognise that the issues we're facing today are issues of history, where we recognise that the investment has not been made in order to create an estate that delivers the sort of ethos and the approach and the policy that we require. And the points that have been made—which I think were very well made by Leanne Wood and John Griffiths—on rehabilitation will form the basis of any approach of this Government.

The issues that Leanne Wood raised about the place of women in the system are well made and it is not the purpose of this Government simply to build a women's prison in Wales. Let me say that absolutely clearly. That's not the purpose of this Government or—[Interruption.] He is. Or the approach that we're seeking to take. I'll be visiting Scotland later this month to talk to the Scottish Government about how they're developing a secure women's centre and how we can deliver support for women and families in the system to ensure that we don't have the sort of structural failure that we have today.

And I hope that the staff who are in the service today will be able to help us create the service of the future. And the points I felt that John Griffiths made on rehabilitation and shorter sentences are exactly the points that we want to address. The Ministry of Justice has already begun to address some of those points in terms of a sentencing policy. Let me say this: in the time that I have been in office, I have met with all the relevant Ministry of Justice Ministers. I intend to continue meeting those Ministers over the coming months to ensure that we have a relationship where we are able to debate and discuss these matters. The blueprints that we are looking to develop at the moment have been developed as part of work alongside the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office. 

But let me say this, and let me conclude with this short remark, Deputy Presiding Officer: these matters are not simply matters about an academic review of the settlement. This is about real people who are being failed today, tomorrow, who are being failed by us in this system, who are being failed by a system of government that doesn't deliver for people in this country. It is important that all of us recognise the human consequences of these matters.

I sat in a cell in Cardiff over the summer and talked to two people who are being held in Cardiff. They are both due for release around this time. They both require services, they both need help in terms of mental health, they both need help in terms of substance abuse. They will also require help in being able to be trained to work, they will need help in terms of where they live, where they're going to be sleeping tonight or tomorrow night. It is our responsibility to get those things right. It is our responsibility to ensure that those two men I spoke to don't end up back in the criminal justice system. It is our responsibility to ensure that the woman who was released to travel back to Newport on a Friday afternoon has somewhere to sleep on Friday night. It is our responsibility to get these things right, and it is a measure of us as a Parliament and a people: our determination to ensure that the most vulnerable people in our society are not let down by politicians who can't agree on what we need to do. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting on this item until voting. [Interruption.] No, well—[Interruption.] We'll defer voting on this item until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

We have reached voting time. So, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, then I will proceed to voting time. Everybody happy? Fine. Okay then.