Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:38 pm on 13 November 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:38, 13 November 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, why does your Government spend £678 less per pupil than in England?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:39, 13 November 2018

That's a figure that's simply wrong. If he wishes to provide me with evidence for that figure, I'm willing to hear it.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

First Minister, these are figures from the Welsh branch of the NASUWT union, and this is despite having a funding settlement that allows £120 to be spent per person in Wales for every £100 spent in England. But it's not just your decision to underfund schools that has led to a decline in standards, it is the failure of your Government to set a clear direction for education here in Wales. Let's take the Programme for International Student Assessment targets, for example—a clear measure of managed decline in school standards. In 2011, your colleague, and the then education Minister, Leighton Andrews—Leighton Andrews: remember him? Yes; perhaps you don't want to remember him—set the ambitious target that, by 2015, Wales would be ranked in the top 20 countries for PISA results. The reality, First Minister, is that we are currently ranking thirty-ninth out of 71, and now there's no target at all. There is no ambition, no drive and no desire at the heart of your administration to develop an internationally competitive education system, which speaks volumes from a tired and unambitious Welsh Labour Government. So, do you agree with your previous colleague Leighton Andrews that Wales's education system continues to be complacent, falling short of being consistently good and not delivering the outcomes that our learners deserve? Would you agree that Wales's education system is currently in a weaker place now than when you became First Minister?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:40, 13 November 2018

Not at all. The reality is, of course, that to say that somehow the system is indifferent or that the system is in managed decline is a serious attack on our teachers who work very, very hard, day in, day out, to educate our children. The reality is that it is impossible to compare school funding between England and Wales. In England, they fund schools directly; in Wales, it doesn't happen. We give the money to local authorities and they are responsible for school funding.

He says that somehow there's a decline. Well, let me just give him some figures here: we have improved performance at the highest grades—A* to A from 17 per cent to 18 per cent in GCSEs; we see a 50 per cent increase in pupils studying science, with more getting A* to C and getting top grades for biology, chemistry and physics; we see, of course, A-level pass rates improving; we see, for example, 63 per cent of 16-year-olds getting A* to C at English language; we see mathematics numeracy is up at 60 per cent; we see improvements year after year in GCSE performance; and we see improvements year after year in A-level performance.

Our heads are not marching in the streets saying that their schools are underfunded, unlike the situation that exists under his party in England. I suggest to him, 'Go and see'. I was in his constituency a few weeks ago on a political visit—go and see the new schools that have been built or promised around Wales, and go and see how many are being built or promised in England. We want to make sure that our youngsters carry on with being able to have the facilities they require to learn, to have the support from Government that they need to learn, to have the finance from Government that they need to learn, rather than having the situation in England, where they teach young people and children in crumbling buildings while the heads are marching on the streets.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:42, 13 November 2018

First Minister, you said yourself that you took your eye off the ball on education. Clearly, your party has been asleep at the wheel for the last decade. And let me give you some figures: under your party's stewardship, we've seen the worst GCSE results in a decade; the lowest ranking PISA scores in the UK, with educational attainment ranking behind countries like Vietnam and Slovakia; an 8 per cent real-terms cut to funding for education, with schools braced to experience more cuts; and the leader of your own council in your own constituency has warned that the £57 million funding gap in education created by your Government could see the loss of 1,300 teachers or 2,400 teaching assistants across Wales.

It's completely unacceptable that our pupils' and Wales's future are shouldering the burden of your Government's incompetence in this area. Our children are worth more than what you give them, First Minister. When you took office in 2009, was this the type of reform you set out to achieve? And, are you proud of your record on education?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:43, 13 November 2018

Yes and yes. But let me say two things to him: his party went into the 2011 Assembly election with a vow to cut education spending by 20 per cent—20 per cent. His own leader at the time, Nick Bourne, said it—[Interruption.]—I know you don't like it, but he said it live on a BBC Wales interview. We saw the alternative budget that his party provided, and if he has any complaint, then surely it's the fact that we haven't cut education spending enough as far as he is concerned.

Secondly, I've no doubt that we will sit here over the course of the next half an hour or so, and, indeed, in the weeks to come, while he will demand that we spend more money on everything—health, education, local government, everything—and we would like to do that. We would like to do that, but the reality is we have £4 billion less as a result of his party's policies than otherwise we would have if spending had kept up with economic development. He cannot have it both ways; he can't stand up here every week and demand money for each and every part of the Government every single week without being responsible and saying where that money is coming from. He won't do that because that's just too difficult.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:45, 13 November 2018

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, are you content that the RAF are training Saudi Arabian pilots at RAF Valley on Ynys Môn, teaching the techniques that can be used in the conflict in Yemen?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

These are matters, of course, that are not devolved, but I certainly join with him in wishing to see a peaceful solution to the conflict in Yemen. The current situation is unsustainable—innocent lives are being lost—and I know the UK Government's position is also that a peace settlement needs to be reached, and soon.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

You say that it's a non-devolved matter, but are ethics non-devolved? Is morality non-devolved? Where does it say in the Government of Wales Act 2006 that matters of conscience are reserved to Westminster? Thousands of people have died in the Yemeni conflict, many of them civilians, and among them children. The leader of the Labour Party has called upon the UK Government to end arms exports to Saudi Arabia, which, as he has pointed out, stands accused of war crimes by the United Nations.

Now, on Sunday, at a solemn ceremony at the Cenotaph to commemorate the victims of war, you and I both pledged, and I quote, 'To strive for all that makes peace.' So, in honour of that pledge, are you prepared to promise that no Welsh Government money will go to a company that is directly supplying weapons to Saudi Arabia while this bloody conflict continues?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:46, 13 November 2018

I am not aware of any company that's received money in that sense. We certainly haven't had contracts with the Saudi Government, and we share the UK Government's concern, not just in terms of what's happened in Yemen, but of course the well-publicised murder of the journalist, Khashoggi, in Turkey. There are questions for Saudi Arabia to answer, and I agree with him that we should be very careful indeed, as things stand at the moment, with those two situations in terms of the way in which we engage with the Saudi Government.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:47, 13 November 2018

Well, I can tell the First Minister that the Welsh Government has given over £1 million to the US defence firm Raytheon. According to CNN, Raytheon's weapons have been used in the targeted bombing of civilians in Yemen. Information from the US Department of Defense confirms that Raytheon's Welsh operations are directly and substantially involved in delivering hundreds more air-to-ground missiles to the Saudi Arabian military. That $300 million deal, incidentally, was signed a week after the chief executive officer of Raytheon flew to Riyadh to lobby Mohammed bin Salman on whose instruction Jamal Khashoggi, whom the First Minister just referred to, was reportedly murdered. So, can I ask you, First Minister, to honour your pledge and commit that not a single penny more of public money from Wales will go to a company involved in the supply of weapons to this murderous and barbaric regime?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:48, 13 November 2018

Well, the leader of Plaid Cymru has raised an important issue there in terms of Raytheon. It's not clear what the involvement of the Raytheon plant in Deeside is with regard to Saudi Arabia. I will, however, find out, and I will write to him once I've established what the connection is. Upon seeing the results of that investigation, I will then of course respond fully to the points that he's raised.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, one of the early policies enacted by the Welsh Government was to introduce a new educational qualification, the Welsh baccalaureate, or 'Welsh bac', as it is known. The Welsh bac has come under criticism, so do you still believe it has been a worthwhile addition to the national curriculum in Wales?

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 1:49, 13 November 2018

Yes, I thought you would probably endorse it, so thank you for the answer. I have to say that you didn't tell us why you think that, but perhaps that will become—[Interruption.] I didn't ask. That may perhaps become clearer as we progress. I have to say—[Interruption.] I have to say, the majority of students doing the A-level version of the Welsh bac probably don't agree with your assessment of it—not as far as I can see. One of the issues is that A-level students trying to get into the UK's top universities have enough on their plate as it is with three A-levels to cope with. Then, your Government goes and handicaps them in Wales by forcing them to study an extra subject, the Welsh bac, which most of the top UK universities don't even recognise, and which doesn't count towards their grades for getting onto the top courses. Would you accept that your—[Interruption.] Would you accept that your Welsh bac is simply making life more difficult for Welsh A-level students?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:50, 13 November 2018

This is not American politics. We like to see questions that are asked on the basis of evidence—any evidence, actually. He said that most A-level students probably wouldn't agree with me. He offers no evidence for that. He suggests that most universities see the Welsh bac as some kind of imposition or don't recognise it. There's no evidence for that at all. He believes that the Welsh bac itself is somehow handicapping our students. There's no evidence for that at all. Because what I can tell him is—I have a child, he's 16 years old, he's studying GCSEs this year, and the Welsh bac is immensely useful, because it teaches students how to operate in life and in work beyond academic subjects. They'll research topics and find out about areas like community work, they look at entrepreneurship—all the things that aren't taught in traditional subjects. So, I think what the bac does is prepare our young people in the broadest way possible not just for academic qualifications, but for the world of work. I know that many employers that I've spoken to—so that I'm not accused of making things up—have said to me that they find that those who've gone through the Welsh bac and have that qualification are better prepared to start in the world of work.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 1:51, 13 November 2018

Yes, you say it prepares them better, but it also hinders them from getting onto the top courses. Now, you wanted—[Interruption.] You wanted evidence, so listen to some evidence. We know from freedom of information requests that in 2017 Oxford and Cambridge universities made 153 conditional offers to Welsh-domiciled students, none of which included the Welsh bac. Imperial College London said that it is not standard practice to make offers that include the Welsh bac. Indeed, out of 19 Russell Group universities, 14 of them made more conditional offers that did not include the Welsh bac to Welsh-based students than those that did. Therefore, would you agree that, based on the evidence before us, the Welsh bac does nothing to help Welsh students into top universities and everything, in fact, to hinder them? And would you agree with me that your Government should now seriously consider abolishing the Welsh bac altogether?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:52, 13 November 2018

No. He doesn't like it because it's Welsh. Let's be honest. He doesn't like anything Welsh, that's the reason why he doesn't like the Welsh bac.

Again, he offers no evidence. All he says is that some universities—and Cambridge is supportive of the Welsh bac; we know that, they've said it—are making offers where they rely on traditional A-level grades. They're not saying the Welsh bac is a handicap. And the Welsh bac is not just a qualification in academic terms. It is a qualification that prepares, as I've said, young people for the world of work. Universities are interested in academic grades, employers are interested in academic grades, yes, but also the readiness and preparedness of a young person to enter the world of work. It's something now that of course is being copied in England. I suppose if it's adopted there he'll be all in favour of the Welsh bac at that point, as long as it's called something else, that's not Welsh. 

No, I think we have done well in preparing our young people for the future. We have grafted the Welsh bac onto the traditional curriculum, and I can say from my own personal experience looking at it with my son, it does an immense amount of good in broadening the horizons of so many youngsters, which they need in order to make themselves even more employable in the future.