The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

The next item is the debate 'A National Contemporary Art Gallery Wales Feasibility Study' and 'A Sport Museum for Wales Feasibility Study', and I call on the Minister, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Motion NDM6873 Julie James

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the publication of the feasibility studies on a 'National Contemporary Art Gallery Wales Feasibility Study' and 'A Sport Museum for Wales Feasibility Study'.

2. Welcomes the analysis and recommendations in both reports, together with the opportunities and challenges they present.

3. Recognises that further work is required before decisions on future action is taken.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. 'Dichonoldeb' isn’t an easy word to pronounce in Welsh, nor is ‘feasibility’ in English, but it’s my pleasure to open this debate and to celebrate the fact that we are a nation that is awash with history and culture, where our history and heritage are important elements of our national character. And, as a result of that, the way in which we convey ourselves through sport and art is always a topic for discussion among us.

In this case, the consultants for these two feasibility studies worked for 12 months and more, and the final reports have now been published. I have had an opportunity to study them and I will refer to some of the main recommendations contained within them, but what we are seeking here is not easy or quick solutions, but to give people an opportunity to contribute to the discussion, and this debate in Government time is part of that.

We will seek to ensure—and this is the main objective—that the people of Wales can access and can participate and enjoy our art and culture, and that we enhance and increase that participation. To this end, stakeholders of all kinds were consulted—specialists in their areas, people who have a particular interest in museums, galleries and in arts more generally—and the recommendations of both reports emerge from those discussions.

To look, first of all, at the sports study, a national football museum was the initial spark for this study, but, very soon, the brief was widened to consider sports heritage of all kinds, but football remaining a central part in the recommendations. Therefore, it’s important that we do bear in mind the range of historical sports played in Wales, which are the basis, of course, for the modern versions of football, rugby, snooker and boxing, never mind the importance of the great increase in netball among women, and the very live interest, because of the success of people like Geraint Thomas, in cycling, as well as athletics and swimming too. We have sports stars in Wales, and the stars are just as important as the participation of the wider population. I have to say that I have found in the discussions that I have had with the department responsible for this area within the UK Government that there is more interest among us here in Wales—and the Government’s policy here reflects that—in increasing participation and less emphasis, perhaps, on counting medals, and I do think that that is healthy.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

These reports, as I say, are the high point of a series of discussions by a number of individuals and organisations, and the main governing bodies have contributed, bearing in mind that we have over 60 governing bodies on all of the various sports in Wales, and the evidence reflects the views expressed there. There is a recommendation to invest in Wrexham in order to allow the development of a football museum there, and the recommendation goes on to mention an expert panel on sport heritage in order to strengthen that national vision, and there will be frameworks arising from that. And then there’s an important recommendation that other sports deserve to be included and that we must seek other means of addressing that issue, rather than creating further museums for the various different sports.

There is a specific reference that has been made to the local authority in Wrexham in the report, and it is clear that it’s not a mater for the Welsh Government to determine the way forward alone. And I have sought all opportunities—and I do have very many of them—to have discussions on these issues around sporting events in order to see what the view is and what the feeling is more generally within the sector.

The same is true with the report on contemporary arts. This is the time of year when a great many arts exhibitions are taking place, and I have had an opportunity to see the vibrant contemporary arts culture of all kinds across Wales over the past few months, from the major museums and galleries through to the interesting developments happening now in many private galleries, smaller galleries, as well as the quality regional galleries, such as Mostyn, Glyn y Weddw and the Glynn Vivian in Swansea. This has all been clearly recognised in the report, and perhaps one of the starkest recommendations for me, as a Minister, is that we shouldn’t create too much imbalance in the current provision, and I do feel that that is a crucially important point.

The recommendations are quite clear. The first step is what is called a national canvass to commission new works the length and breadth of Wales to generate interest, with artists working alongside local communities. The next step would be investing in the infrastructure that we have and providing a supply structure that opens out the national collections and provides new works to audiences across the nation. And then the third recommendation is to establish a headquarters for contemporary art as a permanent space and a vibrant platform for the arts.

Now, this model that has been suggested in the report is complex, but it is one that we can consider developing in many different ways, linking that with the resources available to us. As with the sports feasibility studies, it’s all reliant on working in partnership, in my view, and I will be seeking to do that if I have the opportunity to continue in this role and to implement these recommendations. The study arises from a consultation, information and specialist knowledge and I’m very grateful to those who carried out this work, and also to all the friends of sports and the arts out there who have taken an interest in this process, and I look forward to listening to this debate here this afternoon.

I have selected the five amendments to the motion. I call on David Melding to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar—David Melding. 

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Deletes points 2 and 3 and replace with:

Acknowledges the value of the analysis provided in the two reports as a basis for extensive public engagement.

Welcomes the recommendations for expert panels to improve the recognition and protection of Wales's sporting and artistic heritage.

Believes that decisions on future action must reflect the ambition to create something fresh and world leading.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to take part in this debate and I welcome it. I'd like to thank those involved in producing these two reports. It's rigorous work and I think an excellent base for future options to be developed. I also think there'll be a lot of common ground on these matters, and I look forward to the development of specific proposals. We won't actually be supporting the Government motion, just because I don't think the recommendations are focused enough to be endorsed in that fashion. I don't think they're meant to be, really. They are pointing us in a certain direction. I'm very keen that we now engage in some extensive public engagement, because these areas really do demand it.

Contemporary art builds on a great tradition in the twentieth century, something I think the work of Peter Lord has demonstrated—that we have an outstanding record in the visual arts that is often overlooked. We also have, in the last 15 to 20 years, seen the incredible success of the Artes Mundi award, which internationally has put us on the map. But, we need to focus now on Welsh contemporary art, and similarly with sport. These are issues that do cry out for very extensive public engagement. So, can I just talk about the contemporary art gallery first?

I think the central issue to resolve here is whether a prestigious and high-profile new building is required, and I have to say I think it is. If so, should it be the first objective of any strategy or a possible conclusion of a spoke and then hub strategy, which is sort of what is the main thrust of that report that we're discussing this afternoon? I think Adam Price brought incredible energy to this debate when he challenged us to think in Guggenheim terms in Bilbao or New York—those incredible structures. We may or may not be able to match them, but our ambition perhaps should be in the first place to do so. Then, he mentioned somewhere like Port Talbot. This is great contemporary thinking and builds on some recent traditions in terms of artistic achievement. There may not be the answer, but I do think that's kind of where the thinking has to be.

As the report says, these matters carry high risks. We don't have a very happy recent record in terms of contemporary art provision facilities. I don't particularly want to pick over the failures of past projects, but this is a challenging area. It's also the lifeblood of creative artistic work in our current generation, so it should receive a very, very high priority. Above all, I think we do need to see something new, visible, and world leading. If we don't start off with that ambition, I'm not quite sure that we're going to get where we want to be. The report, in fairness, does use these terms, and we certainly want a dispersed, federal-type model as part of the strategy, but I think that prestigious building is something that we do need to consider and really bring some focus onto that.

In terms of sport, again, the report points to the risks, particularly around financial fragility. The Scottish experience is quite instructive here, I think. I myself think to look at sport in general rather than football in particular may be the way we need to go. I think everyone here believes that a prestigious national museum, or another one, needs to be located in north Wales. I can't think of a better place than Wrexham, so I like that aspect of what we are considering. That's why we will support Plaid Cymru's amendments 2 and 5. But again, I do think we need to consider this matter very thoroughly, though sport in its cultural dimension does not receive the prominence it should. I think it's a massive factor in our national life. And whilst we all enjoy it in terms of what's going on at any particular moment, the effect it has on society, I think, is really profound and needs to be examined, celebrated and reflected on in that manner as well. So, we do need to look at these things in a very ambitious way also.

Can I just finally say that I like the ideas of the panels and I look forward to their work? And that is the sort of engagement that we should have hard-wired into our system. I think we will find consensus on these matters, but we do need quite a vigorous debate to start it all off. Thank you.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth—Llyr Gruffydd.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Insert as new point after point 2:

Welcomes the recommendation that a National Football Museum should be established in Wrexham.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Insert as new point after point 2:

Calls on the Welsh Government to commit to implementing the core recommendations of the report, 'National Contemporary Art Gallery Wales Feasibility Study', in their entirety, including building a permanent national headquarters for the National Contemporary Art Gallery Wales.

Amendment 4—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point after point 3:

Welcomes the recommendation that the building of a permanent national headquarters for the National Contemporary Art Gallery Wales should be worked towards.

Amendment 5—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point after point 3:

Calls on the Welsh Government to commit to implementing the central recommendation of the report, 'Sports Museum for Wales Feasibility Study', that a national football museum should be created in Wrexham.

Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. I move the amendments in the name of Plaid Cymru. I will be discussing the element of the football museum specifically and Adam Price will tell us more about the contemporary art gallery. So, amendments 2 and 5 are the ones that I will focus and, of course, we are eager, not just to note, but to welcome the central recommendation of the feasibility study on the national football museum, and also to move forward to implement that recommendation of creating a national football museum that we all want to see.

Of course, it has been an ambition for us as a party to implement this and achieve it and we’re pleased that the study does confirm our ambition, in the first instance, that we need a national football museum for Wales and, second, that that museum should be located in Wrexham. In that regard, we welcome the study as a significant step forward.

The report's findings are a vindication of the campaign launched three years ago, when I and Plaid Cymru colleagues first went public on this, alongside Wrexham Supporters Trust directors, when we launched our campaign at the Racecourse ground. Back then, of course, we argued that a national football museum should be based in Wrexham, the spiritual home of the game. It's where football started in Wales, effectively. It's still home to the oldest existing international stadium in the world, as well as the third-oldest football club in the world. It's where, of course, the founding fathers of the Football Association of Wales met many, many years ago. But also, not only history, but future football as well, because the FA, of course, have invested in that future with a national football development centre being located at Colliers park in Wrexham. And Plaid Cymru made the case for a national football museum in our 2016 election manifesto and, of course, we ensured that this feasibility study happened as part of our budget agreement with the Welsh Government. But, this isn't the end of the story, far from it, there's much more work to do, and I would like to see the Government now bring forward a timetable to make sure that we do realise this ambition as soon as we can. 

There are a few areas where I diverge from the findings of the report, or the recommendations, first of all, of course, in relation to the governance model. In order to be a proper national museum, I think it's appropriate for this proposed national football museum to be part of the National Museum Wales family, rather than—a glorified local museum might be unfair, but certainly having a lesser status. Secondly, it still remains my ambition that the museum is incorporated into a future redevelopment of the Racecourse. It's a great pity that that prospect was dismissed in a single paragraph in the feasibility study, but, certainly, as a party, we are keen to see this development happen and we'll continue to press for the museum to be a catalyst for that redevelopment at the Racecourse ground, albeit maybe that ambition is now something that we have to consider in the slightly longer term. 

Now, the study, of course, as the Minister has said, has pointed to the fact that there is no sport heritage policy, guidance or strategy here in Wales, as there should be, and the recommendation to create an expert panel to develop a national vision and an implementation framework are things clearly to be welcomed. Now, it is important, despite this, that the National Museum Wales jigsaw is completed. We know about the presence in Cardiff in the national museum and in St Fagans, Big Pit in the Valleys, the waterfront museum in Swansea, wool in the west and slate in the north-west. There is a vacuum in the north-east, and I have argued in other contexts that we need more national institutions to have a presence in the north east to reinforce the Welsh identity of an area that naturally looks more in the direction of Liverpool and Manchester than it does in the direction of Cardiff. This is an opportunity not only to achieve that, but to tell the story of football in Wales from a Welsh perspective, and that should be located as part of the national museum. 

Thanks to the Minister for bringing the debate today. It's an interesting subject, or a combination of subjects—a sporting one and an artistic one. I agree with much of what Llyr Gruffydd just said on the subject of the football museum. Llyr referred to Wrexham as the spiritual home of Welsh football. Of course, I'm a Cardiff City FC fan, but I totally acknowledge that the north-east corner of Wales was where organised football really began in Wales. Of course, for many years, the Racecourse staged many or most of the Welsh internationals. There was some disquiet in the 1990s among north Walians—I was aware of it at the time—when we started to have more of the internationals coming down to Cardiff, at that time at the national stadium. And I think this would be a good move to re-emphasise the importance of the north-east to include it in a strategy for the celebration of culture in Wales, going along with what Llyr just said. He quoted a couple of important facts about Wrexham, so I won't rehash them, but a couple of other things. 

There were other important clubs early on in that north-east corner. In the Wrexham area, there was Druids from Ruabon, and there was Chirk FC as well. They were also early winners of the Welsh Football Association Cup, apart from Wrexham. Chirk produced Billy Meredith, who was probably the most famous player of the Edwardian era in the entire British isles, so I think Chirk played a big part as well. So, that would also fit in with the strategy of having this museum in Wrexham. And tying it in with the redevelopment of the stadium, that would be a good idea if we could look at that seriously. I think that does warrant a lot of consideration.

And the importance of having a good museum—I mean, we have museums. They're not always of a great status. I remember when we had the national sports museum, it was in St Fagans. There were some items there that were of interest, but it wasn't a particularly well-curated exhibition, and I think that the status of the museum, as Llyr mentioned, is also important; it needs to be a good collection.

I agree with David Melding that we need to have a discussion about the contemporary art gallery, because the proposals are a little vaguer on that subject. David intriguingly mentioned Port Talbot, which has cropped up as a possibly innovative site for such an art gallery. Of course, Port Talbot has traditionally been known for its industry rather than for its culture. Of course, now we know that a cultural life is beginning to flourish in Port Talbot, so it would be—[Interruption.] Okay, well, I'm not being condescending. Port Talbot has a lot of artistic life. This would add to it, so I think that's a radical idea and I think we should consider it. And thanks very much for the report.      

I enjoyed reading the report. There were parts of it I didn't understand; I'm really referring to the contemporary arts part. And the reason I was particularly interested in it was because it does seem to me that there is an uncertainty within it, and the conflict, I suppose, between the idea as to whether you look at the traditional centre of excellence—the visual one, the one that's aimed at tourists, the one aimed at profiling and international profiling, and so on—as opposed to the alternative as to how you actually develop the sites that are around and co-ordinate those into almost a comprehensive version of that. And to some extent, there are, of course, realistic issues in terms of capital, in terms of funding and so on. 

I'm quite interested in the hub approach, and I notice that what the report says—it refers to

'What will make a difference to communities, to artists and to the existing visual arts infrastructure?'

Now, if that's the case, the reason why I'm particularly interested is because we have a number of growing areas within Wales where there are real vacuums in terms of art provision. I mean, we have Pontypridd—I obviously would talk about my own constituency—but there are others, and Pontypridd leading up to the Valleys as a whole, where if you look at the map of the locations of provision of facilities, and so on, there is a real dearth of them within certain areas, yet we do have the availability of very substantial buildings that, imaginatively used, could actually be used. So, the issue that concerns me a little bit is the clarity as to where we're going and the conflict between the various options that are involved there. I was in Kiev at the weekend, and there's a big derelict arsenal building, which obviously stored ammunition, that has been turned into a massive warehouse of contemporary art. It was absolutely fascinating as an example of how you actually take an industrial building. So, when you talk about Port Talbot, there are many big, unused industrial buildings in Port Talbot, where you have that infrastructure, but that capacity to actually base it and have people to engage with it there.

If the intention is to really make the arts more available and engage in terms of a facility for communities and have community engagement, then the model has to be slightly different, and I think we do need to come up and look at the areas where there are these vacuums, which I would really take from Pontypridd through to Porth, all the way through the Valleys, where there are some tremendous buildings but there is actually no real provision. The provision is located all around. So, perhaps the Minister, when we have the summation in this debate and we have the references, it would be helpful to have some clarity as to where the thinking is going from Government now as to what the preferred options might be and how that sort of engagement can actually take place. I think it's very valuable when I see what is happening within Pontypridd at the moment—the actual regeneration of the town—but the fact that there is really quite a lack of provision in respect of the arts. There are certain areas and certain items of excellence, and it's a surprise to me that a number of the artists that exist are really asking for assistance to be able to have things within Cardiff, because that's where facilities are, and the facilities locally are very limited.

So, I think that's the contribution that I would make in that, but I certainly look forward to what I think is really a very important debate on the cultural life, the quality of life and the well-being of our communities and how the arts can actually serve that.

I welcome the report commissioned by the Welsh Government as part of the agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru. This report is thorough, honest, and it gives us the best overview we've had for decades on the visual arts in Wales. It provides a creative and innovative model to create a new focus for the visual arts with a national institution at its core. It's inspiring, it's comprehensive, and its far-reaching, and it asks for courage in terms of the vision for the visual arts in Wales.

We are in many ways a late nation, and part of that process is that we lack certain institutions that most nations have. The building next door is an example of that, of course. It was an opera house that then developed into a hybrid national performance centre—the Wales Millennium Centre. The visual arts is an area where the lack of those national cultural institutions is most clear. We still lack fully a national gallery. We lack a national portrait gallery, and we do not have, of course, a national gallery of contemporary art of sufficient scale for us to be able to create a crystallisation point for the visual arts in Wales.

And there's an opportunity here actually for us to tap into a little bit of that spirit of the heroic age of nation-building 100 years ago—the likes of a namesake of the Minister, Tom Ellis, et cetera—and the vision of creating a national library and the national museum and other national institutions. And there is unfinished business here, isn't there? The visual arts has always been a poor relation, unfortunately, in our culture, which has been dominated by text and live performance. So, now is the opportunity for us to make up for that absence, because, of course, the visual arts has been part of our story; it just hasn't had the same stage. And it's building that stage that we're talking about.

I think the report offers a sensible, measured and three-phased approach. The only thing I would say is: let's do the phases together in parallel. So, as we build capacity, let's also facilitate the raising of the capital to create the hub. I think there's a lot to be said in a nation such as ours for a federated approach, a distributed approach, but spokes need their hub as well, and just in pure physical terms, the nature of contemporary art, you need a building with high ceilings that's actually big enough to create the kind of immersive experience that people can have in the likes of the Turbine Hall or in other countries across the world that have a large-scale staging place for contemporary art.

So, yes, by all means, let's actually create a network with our existing, excellent, smaller scale galleries that exist in Wales, but we do still need that central hub whereby we are able to create the kind of experience that is possible in terms of the visual arts in other countries. And it is a great opportunity to do something exciting that could have regenerative potential. I think, yes, Port Talbot would be a fascinating place: the mountains behind us meeting the sea; yes, Wales's industrial heritage there; and, of course, as we know, Port Talbot at night, in some ways, is a work of art, isn't it? And what would be better, and crystalising our culture in the fullest sense, than building our national gallery of contemporary arts centre there? I mean, Fox Talbot was one of the pioneers of photography, wasn't he? So, there is a story about the visual arts right in that place.

And we could start in a creative way. We don't actually have to raise the capital straight away to have a starchitect come to Wales. Maybe we could do Zaha Hadid in reverse and, actually, some of the failed Guggenheims across the world, from Rio, that haven't happened—maybe we can actually borrow some of the plans for there and build it here. But we could start by doing what the National Theatre of Wales did in a disused factory with 'We're still here', couldn't we? We could actually use industrial warehouses that are unused at the moment actually as the initial example of a national gallery while we're raising the capital and the momentum to create something more permanent.

There are many risks, of course, but I think the report identifies the biggest risk of all, and that's us, and I mean we politicians. They challenge us in the report, the artists. They say, 'They don't have'—they mean us—'don't have confidence in Welsh artists.' The report is littered by the shocking number of reports over the years that have been remained on the shelf. Let's not make that mistake again. There's an opportunity for us now to actually move forward with the unfinished business of creating a decent stage for the excellent production of art here in Wales. 

The decision to commission a feasibility study into creating a national gallery of contemporary art and a national sport museum is something I personally welcome because I want to see Wales, my country, prosper in terms of the abundance of talent we have in the arts and encourage people from other countries to partake and compete in Wales, therefore adding growth to our economy. Rural areas in Wales must also not be forgotten, as they are extremely important and are often neglected.

However, I think that we have to also look at the bigger picture, which is the public perception. At a time when our public services are being cut to the bone and the arts have faced many years of cuts, can we justify spending millions of pounds on a museum of contemporary art?

Tomorrow, we are debating the Culture, Welsh, Language and Communications Committee's report on its inquiry into non-public funding of the arts, which came about because the Welsh Government requested that the sector reduce its reliance on public funding. And the committee found that it would be very difficult for arts organisations to do so.

I fully support continued public funding for the arts. Art, in all its forms, is an essential part of our culture. It's what defines us as humans and brings huge benefit to all, not just those who create it, but those who watch and learn and look. But we also need to be realistic about the funding. The average taxpayer would maybe rather see their public library remain open, or the local day centre be available to vulnerable, older people than pay for a new Tate Modern. Yes, Wales needs a museum of contemporary art, but can we afford it at present?

The feasibility study alone cost more than the annual grant given to Dawns i Bawb, Theatr Felinfach, Trac, Arts Alive or the Pontardawe Arts Centre. Even without building the new HQ, phase 1 and 2 of this project will cost almost a third more than the entire annual budget of the Arts Council of Wales. So, while I really support the Plaid Cymru leader’s vision of a Welsh Guggenheim, I cannot support diverting public funds away from vital public services or other arts projects. Yes, such a venture would highlight Wales's cultural achievements, but at what cost?

How can we achieve this? I want to achieve this because I really do think this is important to Wales, but we simply have far too many other priorities at this moment in time. Should we be looking—

Would the Member give way?

Yes, certainly, Adam.

She may not be aware. There's some work already ongoing through the Morgan Academy at Swansea University trying to look at alternative funding mechanisms that need not be entirely reliant on the public purse. So, if that were possible, and we were able to at least state the ambition, would she be supportive of finding alternative means of achieving the same goal?

This is what I was coming to, and this is what I'm trying to raise in my point. I'm passionate about the arts, being a former drama teacher and PE teacher, so arts are my thing. But looking at the other ways of raising, as you've just enlightened me about, so thank you very much for that. I want to keep our vital services open, like the libraries and so on, because people depend on them and it takes them out of loneliness and isolation and so on. So I'm casting this, Adam, in terms of relativity and my personal view is, I want this to go ahead, so thank you. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport to reply to the debate. Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I make no apology for saying that this won’t be a conventional response that will answer every point that’s been made, because this discussion today is the beginning of the process for me too. But I do want to note a few things: David Melding referred to the drive for consensus; there was a lot in what Llyr said, particularly in terms of the relationship with the museum and the national galleries, which I warm to; Gareth Bennett’s emphasis on the quality of the collections; and the inspired speech by Adam. I'm not a fan of the Guggenheim, as it happens—any of them—because I think they draw all the attention to the building and not enough to the arts in terms of their design. That isn't true about the work of art that we have in this place here today.

I'd like to thank Mick for his comments on what’s happening in the Valleys, or the lack of presence in the Valleys. I accept that we are at risk of missing an opportunity where we don't combine arts of all kinds with performance and social activity and link that to community regeneration, because you can't regenerate a community if the community isn't regenerated. It’s not a matter of infrastructure alone. Thank you, Caroline, for your analysis. I think we’ve heard virtually all views expressed in this debate today that one could expect—for and against the approach to our expenditure on the arts and sport.

But I will make two points in summarising and concluding this debate, namely to refer to the amendments. Amendment 2 welcomes the recommendation to establish the football museum in Wrexham and we’re happy with that, of course. There are implications that we will need to discuss with Wrexham County Borough Council. I don't know if Llyr has been in discussion with them, I haven't, but there will be an opportunity to do that following this debate. Amendment 4 welcomes the recommendation of working towards the building of a permanent national headquarters, but I prefer the word 'hub' rather than 'headquarters' when discussing art. Therefore, that is part of the Government’s ambition, certainly.

So, what I will take from today's debate is the comments that have been made. We will respond to the debate in a practical manner, because my intention after today is to start to take action, to continue to consult with the sector, but I won't be making final decisions until I've had a lengthy conversation with those who have contributed today, particularly the party spokespeople, so that we do seek that consensus, or as much agreement as is possible in an area that is necessarily contentious like this. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item, therefore, until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.