Item 4 on the agenda is a statement by the Counsel General on the Legislation (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Counsel General, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's a great pleasure to be introducing the Legislation (Wales) Bill for the National Assembly for Wales’s consideration. This is a significant moment in the evolution of our legislature because, for the first time, we are introducing legislation that relates to the law itself.

The purpose of the Bill is to make Welsh law more accessible, more clear and more straightforward to use. The nature of the Bill is such that I as Counsel General am introducing it—something that has not happened before. This is an opportune moment, therefore, for me to pay tribute to two of my predecessors, Theodore Huckle QC and Mick Antoniw AM, who both played an important part in the development of the Bill. I would also like to thank the many others who have contributed to the process so far, by responding to the two consultations that we have held as a Government or by making submissions to the Law Commission. The Law Commission’s report, 'Form and Accessibility of the Law Applicable in Wales', provides the rationale for one part of the Bill and, again, I am grateful to them for their work.

Part 1 of the Bill is novel. It seeks to put in place a system that will commit future Governments to keep the accessibility of the law under review and to take action to make it more accessible. Concerns have been raised for many years about the complexity of the law in the United Kingdom and the disorganised state of our vast and sprawling statute book. Much of the complexity derives from the proliferation of legislation made over recent decades within the UK. As a result, the UK statute book is now vast and unmanageable. This in turn means that that part of the statute book that we have inherited is equally inaccessible, perhaps even more so given that Acts of the UK Parliament are being regularly amended to make different provisions for Wales and for England. This problem becomes even more acute set against the wider context of a highly complex and incoherent devolution settlement, the unorthodox arrangement under which Wales and England share a legal jurisdiction, and our responsibility to make laws in both of our languages.

The long-term aim is to create a well-organised Welsh statute book that will categorise the law by codes on specific subjects, rather than simply by reference to when acts and statutory instruments are made. The Bill, therefore, places duties on Government because the scale and nature of the task is such that this must be done systematically and over the long term. This means that the consolidation of the law and the other related initiatives in making the law more accessible have to be a priority for all governments. 

Reaching the goal of a fully codified statute book will take a generation and more. So, before starting that journey, we must understand the purpose of the journey. As a result, also, today, we are publishing a draft taxonomy for codes of Welsh law, and this is to illustrate how the statute book may look in future. Although this is a working document, I nonetheless hope that it will provide Members with a helpful insight into our initial thinking.

We will also be working with the national archives to improve the way existing legislation is published, most notably by organising what we already have by reference to its subject area. This will help pave the way for the consolidation process that is required, while being a useful tool for the users of legislation in the meantime. Once complete, this service will be available through the Law Wales website, a website that we will be improved as another part of the work of making the law more accessible. 

While Part 1 of the Bill is innovative, Part 2 of the Bill follows a long tradition established by the UK Parliament in the nineteenth century when it first passed an interpretation Act. Statutory interpretation is the process of determining the meaning and effect of legislation and how it operates. This can be a complex process, so Acts prescribing rules on how laws are to be interpreted are now a typical feature of legal jurisdictions across the common law world. Their purpose, essentially, is to shorten and simplify legislation and promote consistency in its language, form and operation. In the UK, there are currently three acts of this nature: one for the United Kingdom, one for Scotland and one for Northern Ireland. Welsh legislation is currently subject to the UK Act, something that we intend to change by making this bespoke provision for Wales.

The proposals in the Bill have been subject to a policy consultation exercise and the publication of a draft Bill. Introduction of the Bill, however, now marks the beginning of the most important part of the scrutiny process, and I'm anxious to hear the views of Members and to listen to any concerns that you may have. Like any other Bill, it is, of course, subject to change, and I have no doubt that it could be improved.

One particular issue that I would like Members’ views on is whether, and how, to make specific provision about the process for interpreting legislation that is made bilingually. At present, section 156(1) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 provides that the English language and Welsh language texts of legislation have equal standing. This may be sufficient, subject perhaps to restating that provision in this Bill, but it's an important issue that needs further analysis and thought. It's an issue that was aired in consultation, but I hope that the responsible committee will feel able to consider this issue carefully.

Finally, it's important to bear in mind that this Bill forms only one part of a wider initiative. Although it is intended to underpin much of our future activity, Part 1 of the Bill will not of itself deliver the reform that we desire. That depends on the detailed and painstaking work of consolidating the law; rationalising it into a structure of codes. We will in future, therefore, start to see the production of Bills designed not to reform the law, but to bring order to it by remaking existing legislation afresh for Wales in a modern, bilingual and accessible form. Once enacted, these laws will then need protection from any future political desire to make law that does not fit structurally within the new established codes. While, clearly, there is no desire to impinge upon the content and effect of the law, and the instinct to reform the law, we have a collective responsibility to constrain how that is done so that the impact upon the accessibility of the statute book is always taken into account.

The wider initiative also involves us, both the Welsh legislature and Government, taking more responsibility for our laws. It involves accelerating the process of developing a body of bilingual Welsh law, a body of law that is identified as such rather than being intertwined with laws that have effect also outside Wales. This Bill, as well as facilitating that process, will contain rules about how that law works and how it is to be interpreted. Regardless of where we end up in relation to the question of a legal jurisdiction for Wales, the Bill will, I hope, form an important part of our legal infrastructure in Wales for many years to come.

Thank you, Counsel General, for this statement, and also the comments towards the end there that this Bill will stand alone, regardless of political differences of view about jurisdiction and so forth, so that we don't get sidetracked by that during the course of the passage of this Bill. Also, I hope you won't mind, but I'm not in a position to answer the very question you've asked us as Assembly Members, about what advice we can offer you on how to restate bilingual legislation, but once this has been through the committee stages, I'm sure we will be able to assist you on that.

Yes, you're quite right to say that the UK statute book is vast and unmanageable, and I agree with you, and it's why I, and other Assembly Members in the past, have been very keen on Welsh law that consolidates, even if we haven't had our way on a number of these occasions—I'm thinking of park homes and the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2016. But we've also failed in the past as well to persuade Welsh Government to reference other statutes within its own Bills, where such references are necessary to understand those Bills. So, for example, a definition can be included in a Welsh Bill by referring to its existence in a different Bill. In fact, we've got a situation arising tomorrow with the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill where that's a possibility of solving a problem.

So, I'll start with a question of definitions, if I may, both of codification and even consolidation, because to me, codification means the embodiment in statute of common law that's been created through judicial decisions. But it seems to me to mean something else in this context, a little bit more along the Roman law lines of, quite sensibly, filing law under subject headings, if you like. So, do you agree with Bangor law group that the Bill should—that's not Bangalore, that's Bangor law—that the Bill should contain a definition of codification and consolidation just to avoid the kind of uncertainty that I've already fallen foul of?

I absolutely support the remaking, or the restating as well, of existing law in modern bilingual and accessible form. This does mean restating existing law, interpreted under older legislation of 1978, I think it is, is it? And, of course, it's not the intention of this Bill to affect or undermine anything and the way it's already interpreted. So, how can you reassure us that if we're going to be—excuse me for characterising like this—but if we're going to be cutting and pasting from other laws and putting it into our own law, how can we be sure that the meaning and understanding will not be lost or changed as a result of coming into our bespoke Welsh law, which I welcome? Because words and phrases could have acquired different meanings over time, and if you've got two interpretation Acts sitting side by side, I'm sure it's an issue that you've already identified and thought about, particularly as our new Acts would probably be taking precedence in those circumstances. And then, conversely, if it's not going to be cut and paste, how can we be sure that the original meaning and original interpretation will be successfully recreated in any new Welsh statutes using the new Welsh interpretation Act?

You say in your statement that Part 2 of the Bill is about shortening and simplifying the law, and, of course, I see the argument for that: it promotes accessability, and we should use modern language where it doesn't confuse. I think this is your chance, for example, to clarify the meaning of the word 'may' in modern drafting. You do refer to it in part of the draft, but not this specific problem. But do you also accept that the word 'simplification' has got more than one meaning and that we must be cautious about balancing the easier to understand with the potential problems of lack of precision? How do you expect to manage that?

The Learned Society of Wales in evidence told us that the duty for Welsh Government to keep Welsh law under review is not clearly prescribed in the draft Bill. It doesn't say what Welsh Government must actually do to keep that under review, and it also has a question about what 'codification' means. It says—and I'm quoting here—that it is not and should not be the purpose of legislation to signal good intentions. I would like that statement on T-shirts, posters, mouse mats, screensavers and on the foreheads of your beloved—anywhere, really, that the Cabinet Secretaries in this place might see it, because this is your chance, Counsel General, to improve the quality of our statutes as well as their accessibility. So, will you be using this opportunity to ensure that Welsh Government moves away from a routine choice of Swiss cheese Bills that express policy intention, but require a significant cadre of regulations, subject to much less scrutiny, of course, in order to make them function as legal instruments, and ensure that accessibility includes the concept of clarity about what affected parties are supposed to do in order to comply with various laws? I was very glad, of course, to see the provision on sunset clauses in the draft Bill, which helps accommodate that.

Two more questions, Presiding Officer. Your closing comments on the structure of codes: what exactly did you mean by

'these laws will then need protection from any future political desire to make law that does not fit structurally within the new established codes' and

'we have a collective responsibility to constrain'— and you did say 'constrain'—

'how that is done'?

I appreciate that it's about impact on accessibility, but that really does need further explanation, because no Government should be seeking to constrain the legislature. For me, it's completely foreseeable that statutes we make in the future might cross your taxonomy lines and fit under more than one heading, so I just want confirmation that any opposition amendments brought forward to future Welsh Government Bills will not be rejected on the grounds that they're outside of a particular taxonomy heading.

Finally, any statute is out of date the day it's made—we're all familiar with that—so what are your thoughts on how we need to deal with what used to be the old Noter-up—but I think it's now LexisNexis and Lawtel—updates, for any changes that are made to legislation, even affected by this Bill? How will they be fitted into your series of codes, if that makes sense? Thank you.

I thank the Member for a wide-ranging number of questions there. I hope I manage to respond to most if not all of them. On the question of the definition of codification and consolidation, the basic point of the legislation is to secure more accessible law, and I think one of the key principles there is to allow definitions to have their dictionary definitions as far as that is possible. So, I think, in the context of consolidation, my view is that that is probably well enough understood. On the question of codification, the Member mentioned the codification of common law as being the kind of paradigm that she might have in mind. We're not, generally speaking, talking about codifying the common law here. There might be, at the margins, some examples of where statute has taken on a particular meaning very well established in common law, but that is absolutely not the intention here. This is a question of codifying statute law. 

She mentioned the taxonomy, which is a sort of work-in-progress document at this point just to give a snapshot of what those subject headings could look like, but the basic point of a code within any of those headings would be to consolidate the primary legislation and then to publish that, together with consolidated secondary legislation and soft law and guidance within each particular subject heading. So, the code, if you like, doesn't have a separate legal identity in law; it is the culmination of a process of consolidation and co-publishing, if I can put it like that.

The point that she made at the end is very important, and I'll take that opportunity that she has provided to clarify what I'm intending there. The act of codifying is the first stage. It's a big task in itself, but, clearly, if a code is to maintain its value, it needs to be maintained as a code, so that when when legislation is brought forward to amend a particular subject area, the expectation would be that that would happen within the code. Now, ultimately, that is a question for the Standing Orders of the Assembly, and work is under way in relation to that. And to go back to the point of definition, there will need to be some clarification within the Standing Orders of what sort of legislation goes through any consolidation provision here in the Assembly. Essentially, that's a matter for Assembly process, really, rather than anything above and beyond that, but I think it's really essential for us to have in mind the fact that codifying is the first step, and maintaining the code is where the value accrues over time.

You mentioned the interrelationship between the 1978 Act and what is proposed in this Bill. The cutting and pasting that you referred to is not something that we are proposing. I hope we will be able to secure a point in time for the second part of the Bill to become law that is easy to remember, so that Members and users of legislation in the future will know clearly that Assembly Acts passed after that date are subject to the new interpretation provisions, and ones passed before that date are subject to the 1978 Interpretation Act. So, it should be very clear which of the two Acts applies. I think that's important from an accessibility point of view.

She talked about the learned society's points in relation to the duty to keep Welsh law and the accessibility of it under review. There are two duties, of course, in this Bill, and the interrelationship between the two is the important thing. There's a broad duty on the Counsel General to keep Welsh law under review, and that will provide opportunities to embed that in the process of developing legislation, developing policy within the Government as legislation is being brought forward. But then the second duty, which has a much broader application, applies both to the Counsel General and to Welsh Ministers, and that's where the meat of the duty lies in bringing forward a programme in each Assembly term to take specific steps to consolidate, codify, and make law more accessible. So, I hope that the interrelationship of those two duties together will provide the meat on the bones, if I can use that term.

She spoke about legislation being more than good intentions. That's absolutely what this Bill has at its heart. She will know there is existing activity around consolidating law, which happens, if I can use the term, on a piecemeal basis, really, and the point of the duties in this Bill is to move from a piecemeal set of arrangements into one that imposes a duty that brings with it, obviously, an obligation to meet that duty and to attract resources in order to be able to make that a reality. So, the whole point of the Bill is to move beyond good intentions into something concrete and dynamic, which builds up its own momentum over successive Assemblies.

The last point she made is important as well, in relation to how the activity and the product envisaged by this Bill relates to the availability of commercial publishers' services at the moment. The truth of the matter is that the users of Welsh legislation passed in this place and statutory instruments by Welsh Ministers will be disappointed if they go online to look for a current, comprehensive, up-to-date, consolidated, bilingual version of the Acts that we pass and the statutory instruments that Ministers bring into law. The position, despite significant effort, is nowhere near where it needs to be, and I'm in discussions with the National Archives about how that can be improved and what we can do as a Government to deploy, in particular, Welsh language resource to move that forward, and we will, I think, be taking on more responsibility for some of the publication of the product of this institution. The other proposal that is under way at the moment—and I mentioned this when I launched the consultation, as you may recall—is inspired by the DefraLex plans in the UK Government, which are being rolled out in Northern Ireland as well, which is to co-locate statutes and law and SIs when they're published, rather than to publish them by date, which is in some ways a very unhelpful way to publish legislation. To do it in subject headings I think is much more intuitive and I hope to have something to say about that at some future point. 

May I welcome the direction that we're travelling in here, as the Counsel General presents this statement today on the Legislation (Wales) Bill? Of course, the intention is to strengthen the legislature here for Wales. Of course, we have been in this place before as a nation. We remember Hywel Dda's laws, of course, in the past. David Melding always reminds me—I think he was around at the time, in the year 950—that of course we had innovative laws at that time, and rights for women for the first time, around 1,000 years before rights appeared in any other legislation. So, we do have a history of creating innovative legislation, and that's what we have here today, to be fair to you. Of course, there are several challenges, and those challenges will become clear as we scrutinise all of this during Stage 1 at the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. We will be looking at this, and part of the evidence has already reached us at the committee, and that's what Suzy quoted from.

But, of course, there is a challenge—we'll forget about Hywel Dda for now—the challenge now is that there are some Wales and England laws, and there are new Wales-only laws, and of course the fact that there are two languages. You outlined the challenge here—anything that is meant to appear in Wales is meant to be in Welsh and in English, and sometimes we have those challenges appearing before us in the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee when things that emanate from Westminster don't appear in the Welsh language. So, I would hope that this legislation would make it clear that, if Westminster legislates on our behalf, there's an expectation for that legislation to be in Welsh and English, because, of course, we are a bilingual nation.

Having said that, the next point that I have is about interpretation. Naturally, I welcome this new arrangement—that you say that the legislation will be codified according to subject area. I think that that's a positive step forward and makes sense. But in this issue of interpretation, particularly in two different languages, you will understand that not all languages are an exact translation of another language, and so there's a challenge, not just in terms of the words that will be used, but in that the sense can be slightly different in English as compared to Welsh. I understand what you say—that the Welsh and English languages are equal—but if we can imagine that the sense is slightly different in English as compared to Welsh, then what language is given priority when you come to a decision? I know it perhaps seems like a difficult point, and an esoteric one, but it is important when you come to interpretation in a law court, particularly because, as you'll be aware,there are several thousand square miles of Wales where people speak Welsh as a first language, and so they would quote this different arrangement in the Welsh language. But you are aware, and you've outlined, that the work of codification means a great deal of work in reorganising how legislation is presented. It means a great deal of work behind the scenes to achieve that, and, of course, there are implications then in terms of staff and resources and so on, and I very much hope that the Counsel General will look at that particular issue.

Then, two points to conclude: of course, we are under the auspices of the Wales and England legal jurisdiction at present, but that, of course, looking to the future, as you mentioned, and as you've mentioned before, jurisdiction arrangement makes no sense at all now, given that we are developing an individual corpus of law here in Wales, and yet we're under the jurisdiction of a Wales and England arrangement. So, how do you see this aspiration of seeing a Wales-only jurisdiction proceeding. Because if we don't take major steps forward to achieve that aspiration, we'll continue with the same arrangement that we have at present, which is always that of England and Wales. 

The final question is in terms of accessibility. Of course, with an increasing number of people, because of financial cuts, having to represent themselves in law courts, what you say about access to legislation is vitally important, because you're talking about the person on the street being able to understand where to find things and what the wording means. So, what practical steps are you taking, rather than this just being a highbrow discussion between different lawyers? For the person on the street, or the layperson, what kind of practical difference, on the ground, is increasing accessibility going to make? That is, how are you going to ensure that there is better accessibility for our people with regard to accessing our legislation?

Thank you to Dai Lloyd for those questions. On the first question, on language, the proposals in the Bill could have a positive impact on the use of the Welsh language more generally in our law. That is, through codifying, it restates existing law as Welsh law. And as so much of that is still available in English only, the fact that it will be restated in both languages does create a corpus of law in both Welsh and in English, and that act in itself will therefore be a catalyst for the use of the Welsh language in law. But the question that he emphasised on that very complex point that he referred to, well, it's a centrally important aspect of this: how do you interpret in two languages, when both have the same authority? This is a challenge that isn't unique to Wales, of course. It's also true in Canada, within the European Union, and so on and so forth. So, there are a number of conventions as to how this could work.

In the Law Commission work, there is a full chapter on this topic, if the Member would like to read it. But that's exactly the kind of discussion that I hope to have with the committee as to how we ensure whether more needs to be done than just to accept what is currently in devolution law in this regard—do we need to take further steps? So, I will be interested to discuss that further with the committee. He referred to the importance of resources. Well, clearly, I agree with him on that point. The point in having responsibility through this Bill is to ensure that that accessibility is there for the future and that those resources are available in the long term, which is essential in order to deliver the objectives of the Bill.

In terms of a separate jurisdiction for Wales, well, that is one of the things that the Justice Commission is looking at at the moment. The Member will be aware of the evidence provided by the Welsh Government to that commission. I want to emphasise that the proposals in this Bill are separate to the issue of jurisdiction. I referred to that in my opening remarks, although the fact that you are restating Welsh law is relevant to the broader discussion on that topic, of course.

Then, finally, he mentioned accessibility. Well, accessibility is central to what this Bill has in mind, and the Bill, in a way, is an issue of social justice as well as democratic accountability. I know, having discussions with advice services, for example—those services that provide advice to the public, that is—that they see the accessibility and clarity of law being an asset in the long term for the important work that they do. Ultimately, we will have a task in terms of how we communicate that to the public. But, I do hope, in looking at the draft taxonomy, that that suggests the kind of accessibility that we have in mind in the longer term.         

Thank you very much, Counsel General. 

Item 5, the Carbon Accounting (Wales) Regulations 2018, and then the Climate Change (Carbon Budgets) (Wales) Regulations 2018, the Climate Change (Interim Emissions Targets) (Wales) Regulations 2018, the Climate Change (International Aviation and International Shipping) (Wales) Regulations 2018 and the Climate Change (Net Welsh Emissions Account Credit Limit) (Wales) Regulations of 2018. Unless Members object—. Unless any Member objects, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 12.24, that the following five motions I've just read out will be grouped for debate. Good.