I call Members to order. This brings us to our Stage 3 debate on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. The first group of amendments relates to the duty to provide funded childcare. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 4, and I call on the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Amendment 4 (Huw Irranca-Davies) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm delighted to help open proceedings here on the Stage 3 committee for this important Bill. I've responded to calls from scrutiny committees—the Children, Young People and Education Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee—for a duty on the face of the Bill, and I've duly brought forward amendment 4.

To give effect to this duty, the Welsh Ministers will need to state the detail around the number of hours of childcare and the number of weeks of provision in the regulations made under section 1. These regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure. In practice, Government amendment 4 achieves exactly the same purposes as amendments 4A and 4B, but without the need for primary legislation to be amended by regulations, should it be necessary in future to vary the amount of childcare to be secured under section 1. Amendments 4A and 4B are seeking to nail things down on the face of the Bill.

I don't think there's any doubt out there about how committed this Government is to delivering on this manifesto commitment. We are already discharging our duty in 14 local authorities across Wales. If we can avoid the need to amend primary legislation by regulations and achieve the same purpose, I think that's what we should do. And, for this reason, we will not be supporting amendments 4A and 4B, and I would urge Members to support instead Government amendment 4, which achieves exactly the same purpose. 

Amendment 20 seeks to define what we mean by 'childcare' on the face of the Bill, by reference to other legislation. Now, we had a very useful discussion, which I'm thankful for, during Stage 2 proceedings, and I also met subsequently with colleagues Suzy Davies and Janet Finch-Saunders in early November to discuss this and related issues. What we mean by 'childcare' for the purposes of the offer is regulated childcare, which encompasses a wide range of different types of provision, subject to a set of national minimum standards, and which are regulated and inspected by Care Inspectorate Wales or the Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills. We already have definitions of 'childcare' in other pieces of legislation, so it is simply unnecessary to have this level of detail in the Bill itself.

But I agree that it is important that the link is made so it is clear what we are talking about when we talk of 'childcare'. Now, the framework administrative scheme, which I have shared with the responsible committee, does make this connection explicit, and in there, we do define what we mean by 'childcare'. The benefit of having the definition in there is that we can then more easily accommodate any changes should that be necessary in future whilst also ensuring that we are being transparent about the meaning of things. Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, for giving us a chance to speak on these amendments. As Welsh Conservatives, we welcome the introduction of the Bill and the childcare offer, as we always promised Welsh voters that they would have funding for childcare. It is very important, however, that we, as elected Members, ensure that no barrier to employment is present within our society, and helping parents with their childcare is indeed a key part of this pledge. As such, we do support the Minister's principle behind amendment 4, which binds the Welsh Government to a duty to provide funding for childcare. However, it is still disappointing that the Minister has failed to place the childcare offer on the face of this Bill.

Whilst it is admirable that the Minister wants to ensure future flexibility through regulations, both the explanatory memorandum and the draft administrative scheme place the numbers of 30 hours per week for 48 weeks per year. It is therefore important that the Bill has this amount on its face, which can, of course, then be changed at a later date. We also heard at Stage 2 that the Minister believes placing the offer on the face of the Bill would create more difficulties to change it in the future, but we contend that this allows for proper scrutiny of the offer's effects. As will become clear throughout the amendments I've tabled at Stage 3, we have broader concerns that the Bill is not affording the National Assembly for Wales sufficient process to examine the effects.

Amendment 4B is a technical change, but it also creates a point that the amount should be specified as hours and weeks. The Welsh Government will fund the offer.

Finally, amendment 20, which my colleague Suzy Davies AM will speak about in more detail, shows that perhaps the statutory definition of 'childcare' extends further than was intended under this Bill, including the additional charges. I'll speak about those under amendments 13 and 21.

This Bill is called the Childcare (Funding) Wales Bill, and the Minister will be aware from amendments tabled in my name at Stage 2 that we've been, well, unhappy about the fact that we have yet another Swiss cheese Bill laid before us. While I'm grateful to you for tabling the amendment in this group, it doesn't absolutely specifically put your policy from your manifesto, and indeed the policy from our manifesto, explicitly on the face of the Bill. So we are left with a Bill that still contains uncertainties, which I'll address in later groups as well.

But a core uncertainty is the meaning of 'childcare'. The Bill does not define it anywhere, and while you say, Minister, it may mean regulated childcare, it doesn't say that in so many words in the Bill. I think it would be quite easy, really, for all of us to turn around and say, 'Well, we know what you mean by "childcare". We don't need a definition', but it became very clear at Stage 2 that this wasn't the case, and it wasn't clear at all whether it included activity such as providing food, going on visits and so on. There is complete inconsistency at the moment about how or indeed even whether those activities are provided free of charge by childcare providers in Wales.

Minister, you argued at Stage 2 that there's no need for a definition of 'childcare' as it's contained in the administrative scheme accompanying the Bill, and you just mentioned that. Furthermore, to put it on the face of the Bill would hinder the ability of Governments to modify or update what we consider to be childcare over time. I'll start with that second point.

This legislature is being asked to pass a Bill on what we understand to be the meaning of 'childcare' today. If you plan to change the meaning of a concept so fundamental to this Bill that it appears in its very title, then you should come back to this Assembly and ask us to agree to those changes. At the very least you should seek to bring any change to this Chamber through the affirmative procedure, because we are voting to allow you to spend taxpayers' money in a very specific way, and if you want to change that, you must come back to this place and ask.

On the first point, about the need for a definition on the face of the Bill, as you say, the administrative scheme refers to childcare being defined as, and I quote,

'care [or other supervised activity] for a child in respect of which the providers require to be registered under Part 2 of the Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010 or under Part 3 of the Childcare Act 2006'.

Section 18 of the latter, as it happens, contains a definition of childcare that includes non-school education and, crucially, and I quote again,

'any other supervised activity for a child'.

An administrative scheme is, of course, just that—some helpful guidance. It is not statutory, it is not scrutinised. The Assembly has no say on its contents, so it's not the place for a definition on which the whole purpose of a Bill, made by law in this Assembly, hinges. And it's purpose does hinge on it, and I'll explain why in a moment.

The Minister is confident in the definition of 'childcare', obviously. It's included in the administrative scheme because of that. And we as a legislature should not be content with it changing without thorough scrutiny. It is not appropriate to refuse to put the definition on the face of this Bill on the grounds of the need to be flexible about the definition of 'childcare'. That's what this Bill is actually about, so please put it on the face of the Bill if you're confident in it, or at least define it on the face of the Bill by reference to those two other pieces of legislation. It's hardly novel, if not in the spirit of the new, what can I call it, consolidation Bill, if the Counsel General will let me characterise it as that.

So, I've tabled this amendment because a definition of 'childcare' would undoubtedly improve the quality of the Bill. But in so doing, I recognise that this presents a huge headache for Welsh Government as regards the purpose of this Bill, namely to provide free childcare. If we adopt the definition, as the Minister is currently asking local authorities and providers to do via the administrative scheme, he's accepting that, quote, 'supervised activity'—providing lunch, going on visits, et cetera—are within the definition of 'childcare'. And childcare, under this Bill, is intended to be free. There can be no charge for anything that constitutes childcare. But at Stage 2 you made it clear, Minister, that you saw what you thought was childcare and these activities, these supervised activities, as different things. The offer, you said, is not

'30 hours of childcare plus everything else together', explaining that that could make the scheme unaffordable—and I agree—but I'm looking at the 2010 Measure and the 2006 Act, and they say that such activities are part of childcare. And you say that childcare is free. So, this Bill needs to distinguish between activities that can be charged for and those that must not be charged for and must be free. By referring to these two pieces of legislation in your administrative scheme, you've already muddied the waters by permitting charging for supervised activities.

If this amendment were to be moved and passed, this definition would not facilitate your policy aim, yet you're relying on that very definition for your policy to be delivered. So, I hope you see my point: firstly, the definition in your administrative scheme needs to be changed so that it doesn't contain contradictory guidance; and secondly, as this shows, this Bill does nothing to tell us what is free and what will not be free—failing in one of its primary purposes.

So, I'm not going to be moving the amendment, because that would embed your mistake into law, but what I hope you will do before Stage 4 is come back to this Chamber and tell us how you will overcome that mistake and make it clear, in law that we can scrutinise, what exactly families can rely upon being free under the law and what not. Thank you.

The Minister to reply to the debate—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you to Suzy and Janet for those comments and remarks and they rehearse some of the points that we covered in the meetings, but also at an earlier stage of this Bill as well.

I laid out in my opening remarks why I think what we have in front of us, particularly with amendment 4, gives the right balance between the clarity that we need on the face of the Bill and the duties, and the flexibility to flex the offer in future, which is something, I have to say, that committees have also wanted to see within this—the ability not to go back to primary legislation, but, actually, to revisit it in the way that the scheme operates, and that's an important part in deciding where we put some of the details of this.

But let me just reiterate: in order to give effect to the duty that we're proposing, we as Welsh Ministers, me or anybody else, will actually have to state the detail around the number of hours of childcare and the number of weeks of provision in the regulations made under section 1. And there's no disguising what this offer is: it's already out there being piloted in the early implementer authorities, in 14 local authorities at the moment, and all of them by the time we roll it out. So, it's pretty clear and the regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure.

And on the question of childcare itself, well, as I said before—and we've covered this in committee—for the purposes of the offer, this is regulated childcare, regulated and inspected childcare that comes under the inspectorates—with Care Inspectorate Wales or with Ofsted—and I turn to those definitions that you mention of childcare in other pieces of legislation.

But in terms of issues such as where there are additional costs, whether it's transport or other costs, I know we'll turn to that in other amendments, and we've discussed them previously at Stage 2 and actually in committee as well, and we'll deal with those there. But we're very clear in the guidance that we've issued, related to transport and other costs, exactly what is allowed and what isn't allowed and what childcare is. To actually put a 'childcare' definition on the face of this Bill would put us in the situation where, if 'childcare' definitions elsewhere were to change, we would, by necessity, have to come back and revisit this in primary legislation.

Will you take an intervention?

I will, indeed, yes.

Sorry, just for clarification. So, are you saying then that the definition of 'childcare' in the 2006 Act is incorrect?

No, no, the definitions of 'childcare' are actually correct, and what flows from this currently-being-piloted childcare offer, that definition is the basis of the 'childcare' definition that we use. And it also then has guidance that is supplementary to this, which has been shared with the committee as well, which shows where there are any additional costs, for example, what the guidance says around those. But childcare is childcare, and it's very clearly understood and we don't need to redefine it on the front of this Bill.

So, look, in bringing forward amendment 4, we've provided greater clarity and certainty about the Government's commitment to meet its manifesto commitment, and I welcome the fact that you won't be pushing the other amendments related to that because we're trying to achieve the same thing here. And let's not forget that the Welsh Ministers will be required, as I say, to set out the detail of the offer in detail, in terms of the number of hours, how many weeks, et cetera, in regulation.

So, amendment 4, alongside the other Government amendment, which builds into the Bill, Suzy and Janet, a requirement to review the effectiveness of the legislation, means that this Government is fully committed not only to the manifesto commitment, but also to transparency about the effectiveness of this offer as well.

And one important point, Llywydd, just to reflect on at the outset of these Stage 3 proceedings, is that it is important to reflect again on the purpose of this legislation. Its purpose is to give the legislative mechanism we need to engage HM Revenue and Customs in administering the application and eligibility-checking process for the offer. It isn't about the offer per se, although I recognise that Members understandably have focused a great deal on the wider offer more broadly throughout the scrutiny stages, and we've been happy to address those issues. And as the responsible Minister, I've tried in every way possible to address those broader issues.

But, in respect of this set of amendments, I would urge Members in light of my comments to reject those other amendments—although if the Member is choosing not to push them, I think that would be excellent because we're trying to achieve the same aim here—and to support Government amendment 4 as the amendment that strikes that right balance between providing greater clarity and certainty, and giving this and future administrations discretion over how that duty is defined in the future.

The lead amendment in group 1 is amendment 4, and as amendments to amendment 4, amendments 4A and 4B will be disposed of first. Janet Finch-Saunders, amendment 4A.

Amendment 4A (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

I move. 

The question is that amendment 4A be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll therefore proceed to an electronic vote on amendment 4A. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 4A is not agreed.

Amendment 4A: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Janet Finch-Saunders, amendment 4B.

Amendment 4B (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

I move. 

The question is that amendment 4B be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 4B is not agreed.

Ammendment 4B: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

The question is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.