2. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding the rollout of universal credit? OAQ53458

I thank the Member for the question. Welsh Ministers have frequently expressed our deep concerns to the UK Government about the fundamental design flaws of universal credit and its impact on the most vulnerable people in Wales. We will continue to do exactly that.

I'm sure, First Minister, you would have read the figures from the Trussell Trust, like I have, that show a nationwide increase of 52 per cent in the use of food banks where universal credit has been in place for a year or more, compared to 13 per cent in areas where that is not the case. Amber Rudd, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, did acknowledge that this increase was partly down to problems in the roll-out of universal credit, and that it has resulted in food insecurity for thousands of individuals and families across the country. And yet we see the UK Government determined to continue to press ahead with this roll-out despite these facts. So, can I urge you, First Minister, if you will continue to hold talks—urgent talks—with the UK Government on this matter, and actually call on them to halt the roll-out of what is a disastrous system and a flawed benefit?

Can I thank Joyce Watson for those points? It is absolutely shocking that the UK Minister responsible for this system should be on the record as saying that the policy that her Government has pursued lies behind the increase in people forced to resort to food banks to feed children here in the United Kingdom. The UK Government needs to take a grip of universal credit and recognise that tinkering around the edges with it will not make the difference that is needed. They do need to halt the roll-out, as Joyce Watson has said. They need to take seriously the campaign that the Trussell Trust are mounting. I'm looking forward to meeting the Trussell Trust myself in the next few weeks. They are running a campaign, as Members here will know, to cut the five-week wait for universal credit before people can get a first payment—the #5WeeksTooLong campaign—because that, amongst other issues, is why we see the increased use in food banks and the impact that that has on children trying to learn in our schools. 

Every year, the councils in Wales receive discretionary housing payment money from the Department for Work and Pensions, and, last year, Merthyr Tydfil, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Anglesey were criticised for handing money back that should have gone to people who receive housing benefit or universal credit and need extra help with rent or housing costs. Commenting on this, Merthyr Tydfil said that,

'Sending this money back is not a bad thing for us. Our benefits numbers are shrinking—the applications are approximately half of what they were last year.'  

How, therefore, do you respond to concern expressed this week by Community Housing Cymru that support for housing costs is now included within the universal credit payment, there is no longer a need for interaction with the local authority in order to claim mainstream benefits, and this makes it less likely for claimants to access local authorities benefits they might be entitled to, such as discretionary housing payments or council tax reduction or free school meals? They call on the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities to work with Jobcentre Plus in Wales to co-locate services and enable applications for local authority benefits to be made at the same time as the first appointment for universal credit.

Well, Llywydd, there are a number of important points in what the Member has raised. Let me begin by agreeing with what he said about the importance of discretionary housing payments and my hope that all local authorities in Wales use that fund to the maximum possible extent to assist those of their residents who are so badly affected by the interaction of universal credit and housing costs.

The point I think the Member is trying to get to is that his Government has decided to stop paying local authorities to be able to advise claimants of universal credit and, instead, are intending to fund the citizens advice bureaux for one single meeting with claimants in order to assist them with the universal credit maze that they face. This will lead, I believe, to additional difficulties for claimants, additional difficulties for housing providers, and will place some advice agencies in a really invidious position where they know that it will not be possible to solve the complexities of some universal credit claims in a single advice session.

So, while I understand what Community Housing Cymru has said this week, the real problems are not in the hands of local authorities or housing providers; they are inherent in the flawed benefit that is being rolled out and in the way that the UK Government seeks to move responsibility for providing decent and sustained advice to people who need it in order to make sure that their basic rights to a decent place to live and enough money to eat from are sustained.

Universal credit, along with other benefits introduced at Westminster, have been an unmitigated disaster for Wales. I'm sure everyone would agree with that, perhaps with the exception of those over there. My office has heard so many examples of really degrading experiences. Now, because of Welsh Government's inertia over devolving the administration of benefits, people are unprotected against the callous policies of the Tories. In contrast, in Scotland they've successfully seen the devolution of the administration of the benefits system there, and they will be able to protect citizens better. The Scottish Government announced just this week that they are banning private firms from carrying out benefits assessments in order to try to create a more compassionate system. So, I'd like to go one step further. I'd like to scrap universal credit altogether. First Minister, do you plan now to make up for lost time and go all out to push for the devolution of the administration of benefits, so that we here in Wales, too, could treat people with the compassion that they deserve, rather than the cruelty that they are currently experiencing? You can do something about this, First Minister: will you do it?

Well, Llywydd, the problem that the Member points to is one that I agree we have to do our best to address and to solve. What I have said is that I want the case for the devolution of the administration of welfare benefits to be properly and thoroughly considered. I want us to take the advice of Assembly committees in that regard, and I intend to explore in the next week or so, with the Welsh Centre for Public Policy, whether this is a job that they could do on our behalf.

But I don't think that it is something that we can immediately sign up to until we are properly aware of what the complexities would be and what the costs would be. Scotland spent £16 million in taking on this responsibility. Now, it may be that when we investigate it, that would be £16 million that is well spent, and I'm absolutely open to that being the conclusion, but we don't have £16 million sitting doing nothing in the Welsh Government's budget, or anything like that. So, if we take on new responsibilities, we'd have to be properly funded to do them, and the exploration that I want to see happen will look at that and the other cases that exist for the devolution of administration of welfare benefits.