Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:46 pm on 19 February 2019.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:46, 19 February 2019

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Llywydd, with your permission, can I also take this opportunity to pay tribute to Paul Flynn and, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, offer our condolences to his family, friends, and to the Labour movement? He was a first-class parliamentarian who always stood up for what he believed in. There is no doubt that he loved his constituency, and he was a proud Welshman who always promoted the Welsh language at every opportunity. It's quite clear that the House of Commons will be much poorer without him.

First Minister, do you believe that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales is fit for purpose?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:47, 19 February 2019

I think Healthcare Inspectorate Wales does a very fine job on behalf of patients here in Wales. We review its progress. We have proposals that we intend to bring forward for strengthening the work that it does.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Well, I think from that answer, First Minister, it seems to me that you believe that it is fit for purpose. So, there is a clear disconnect, I think, First Minister, in your perception of 'fit for purpose' and mine. Despite HIW’s vital function of ensuring our health services in Wales meet standards of care, it is the only inspectorate body of its kind in the UK that is not fully independent of the Government it is supposed to be monitoring. Can you not see the contradiction here, First Minister?

We have seen a number of high-profile cases of serious failings in care at health boards in NHS Wales, from the Kris Wade scandal at Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board to the serious safety concerns at maternity services at Cwm Taf, and the horrific failings at Tawel Fan. Even though HIW raised concerns about all of these terrible failings, it did not have the power to intervene when it needed to without first seeking permission from your Minister. Therefore, it is not independent from your Government. Will you therefore commit today, First Minister, to strengthening HIW’s independence and to providing the inspectorate with enforcement powers by making it a truly independent body, like Estyn, for example?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:49, 19 February 2019

Well, Llywydd, I’ve already said that the Welsh Government is committed to bringing forward a Bill that will deal with a number of these matters, including the role that is played by HIW in Welsh health services.

I don't accept for a moment, though, what the Member said about the independence of HIW being compromised by its relationship with the Welsh Government. When I was the health Minister, I could not recollect then, and I cannot recollect since, a single example when HIW were not able to do whatever they said they wanted to do, to report on whatever they wanted to report on, to follow up those reports in whichever way they chose. The operational independence of HIW is an important strength of the Welsh NHS, and it has never been compromised by any lack of independence.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:50, 19 February 2019

You know quite well, First Minister, that they cannot intervene without your Government's permission and, therefore, it is not truly independent. Your Government's policy seems to be to underfund HIW as well, to the point where it has no capacity or resources to hold our health services to account. These underfunding issues are not new. Back in the last Assembly, we heard from the Marks review that HIW was failing to keep people safe in hospitals, and was unable to carry out enough inspections because it had to monitor too many services. Despite this, your Government has chosen to consistently reduce its funding. And you cannot seek to pin this on austerity, First Minister. The decision to slash HIW's funding is clear. Whilst Estyn receives £11.3 million each year, and Care Inspectorate Wales receives £13 million a year for 2018-19, HIW's annual budget has reduced to £3.5 million, and is set to receive another £190,000 reduction the following year. Why do you not want to support this body that plays such an important role in ensuring that our health services are delivering safe and accountable services? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:51, 19 February 2019

Llywydd, the very first question the Member asked me was whether I supported HIW, and I quite certainly do, and I support it in a practical way rather than the rhetorical way in which the Member has tried to this afternoon. It is nonsense for him—absolute nonsense for him—to act as though the reduced budgets that the Welsh Government faces have no impact on our ability to fund many important functions that are carried out on behalf of our Government. Nonetheless, my colleague the Minister for Health and Social Services has diverted money from his budget into HIW in order to support it in the important work that it does. Instead of just trying to find reasons for casting doubt on the important work that HIW does, it would be better if the Member were to recognise the importance of that work, and to support them in their activities. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:52, 19 February 2019

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. May I also extend my sympathies to the family and friends of Paul Flynn and say this: I had the pleasure of serving alongside him in that other Parliament in Westminster for some years, and he was always very willing to provide advice and support, even though we came from different parties. He occasionally would pull me up when he thought I could perform better. He was one of those rare animals who could move from grave to humorous, and back and forth. And despite being the incarnation of passion, that never hardened into bitterness or hatred at any point, and he is an example to us all in that regard.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:53, 19 February 2019

Is the First Minister able to share with us the Welsh Government's assessment of the potential impact in terms of jobs on supplier firms in Wales of Honda's announcement today? Can he confirm that that may affect up to a dozen major suppliers, such as G-Tekt in Tredegar and Mitsui in my own constituency, as well as many more second tier and third tier suppliers? The Welsh automotive sector is one of our major industries, and yet we saw with coal and steel, didn't we, how that position can unravel very quickly with disastrous long-term consequences? Given that we've already seen 600 job losses announced at Ford and Schaeffler, and Chatham House has confirmed that Wales has seen the sharpest reduction in foreign direct investment since the referendum of all the nations and regions of the UK, does he agree that membership of the single market is absolutely critical to the survival of the Welsh automotive sector, and the health of the wider Welsh economy? Given that the only realistic path now to securing that is through a people's vote, is he able today to pledge his unequivocal, unalloyed support for that policy?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:54, 19 February 2019

I thank the Member for what he said in his introduction, and for drawing attention to the impact that the news from Honda today will have on the Welsh economy, as well as the economy in Swindon. Wales-based suppliers to the Honda Swindon facility will, of course, be affected by this news.

My colleague Ken Skates's officials are in London today speaking with officials in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy who work in the automotive area, and that is part of our immediate effort to identify where vulnerabilities to the Welsh economy and to the Welsh automotive sector will come as a result of that very concerning announcement. And of course, Adam Price is absolutely right to point to the significance of the automotive sector here in Wales—around 150 companies employing around 19,000 people.

And Brexit is there in the background to this succession of announcements that we have seen in recent times. When I met, with Ken Skates, with the most senior officers of the Ford motor company here in the United Kingdom, they pointed to the importance of the single market and to non-tariff and tariff barriers. They pointed even more, Llywydd, to the impact of Brexit on the movement of workers and their ability to move staff easily and quickly across borders.

In the general point that the Member makes, the position of the Welsh Government remains that which was voted for on the floor of this Assembly only a small number of weeks ago, that the House of Commons must continue to find a deal that could be supported, that would support the Welsh economy and Welsh jobs. If the House of Commons is unable to do that, and the weeks are seeping rapidly away, then we say that in a situation of deadlock the decision must go, as Adam Price said, back to the people. And, because that option must not be ruled out simply because preparations have not been made for it, then we also say that preparations to enable that to happen, should it be needed, must begin at once.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:57, 19 February 2019

First Minister, on 22 January, you told this Chamber,

'the debate in Parliament over the next week is the last opportunity to rally around that form of Brexit...based around continued participation in the single market and a customs union...if that cannot be done,...the only option that...remains is a...public vote to break the deadlock.'

Now, that was widely interpreted as you saying that there was a deadline of seven days. Parliament failed to reach the deadline that you set, and here we are several weeks later. So, my question to you is very simple: what is your new deadline? Is it eight days' time to 27 February? Is it the end of this month? Is it in March? Or is it 10.59 p.m. on 29 March?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:58, 19 February 2019

Well, Llywydd, one of the things we surely all have learnt is that deadlines that the House of Commons appears to set and that the Government appears to set, when those days arrive, those deadlines are capable of evaporation and new deadlines being set. Now, I regret that. I regret very much indeed that the Prime Minister didn't take the advice of the document that we published jointly between Labour and Plaid Cymru here in the Assembly more than two years ago. Had she done that, then we would be in a very different position, I believe, in relation to our relations with the European Union. Nevertheless, to our frustration, the House of Commons continues to grapple with this matter, and deadlock, I believe, has not yet been reached. And we just have to be willing to hold our nerve to allow that opportunity to happen, always with our clear statement that if it cannot be resolved in that way, then the only democratically feasible answer that we have been able to identify is that the decision must go back to those who made it in the first instance.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:59, 19 February 2019

First Minister, I accept what you say about the going round in circles that we're seeing in Westminster, but the deadline that I asked you about was the one that you set for yourself, in terms of deciding when we need to move on and unequivocally say that the only way forward is a people's vote. And one of the criticisms I've heard you make of Theresa May's Government is that they're unwilling to listen to you, but is your own Labour frontbench in Westminster listening to you? Despite the vote that you referred to in this Assembly for preparations to begin immediately, Jeremy Corbyn's letter to Theresa May on 6 February omitted to mention a people's vote at all. As one of your AMs Alun Davies said, when the letter was published,

'It appears that Jeremy Corbyn and UK Labour have dumped our policy on a referendum in the first paragraph.'

Tonia Antoniazzi, the MP for Gower said,

'Nice to be briefed about this @UKLabour @WelshLabour—if at ANY point you would like to consult MPs and also take the Labour Party conference motion into consideration...Just let me know...Cheers...'

MPs and AMs weren't briefed. The question is: were you? Did you agree that the letter shouldn't contain reference to the people's vote that had been supported here? Do you know what Jeremy Corbyn is saying now as he addresses the Engineering Employers' Federation? Our future in Europe is among the most pressing concerns facing our nation. Don't you feel just a small touch of shame at your party's failure to strike a clear stance? And is it any surprise at all that so many now are abandoning it?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:01, 19 February 2019

Well, the policy of the Labour Party, Llywydd, is clear. It is the one set out in the September conference resolution, and it's the policy that I have supported ever since. I am in the fortunate position of being able to discuss these matters with Labour front-bench spokespeople: Sir Keir Starmer, who was here in Cardiff within the last two weeks; I was able to discuss it with Jeremy Corbyn when I was in London last week. I welcome his letter of 6 February. It was widely welcomed in Brussels as well as being an important contribution that had a chance, given a Government that was prepared to carry out genuine discussions and negotiations with others on the floor of the House of Commons. That letter offered a way to an agreement that could be struck, that could command a majority in the House of Commons and that could be supported at the European Union level as well. That's what my party wants to get out of all of this. It's only if the Government that is responsible for all of this, which has been in charge of all of this ever since the referendum—. It's only if they fail to move in a direction where a majority in the House of Commons can be secured that we will then have to do, as the Member has said—and I have agreed with him now for the third time this afternoon that, in those circumstances, the decision would have to return to the people who made it in the first instance.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:02, 19 February 2019

(Translated)

The leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I also add my condolences to the family of Paul Flynn? Although he was identified with Newport for many years, he was originally, by birth and upbringing, a Cardiffian, so both cities do lay some claim to him. I did contact Paul Flynn during the early stages of the referendum campaign. As he was a genuinely independently minded politician, I was interested, actually, where he stood on that, and I was very grateful for the e-mail I received back from him. I was not publicly known at the time, so I was quite chuffed to get his response, and he clarified his position. We were on opposite sides of the fence, as it turned out, but I was grateful for his response, and I know he has at least one person here who worked for him in the past, and, of course, as you mentioned, he was a supporter of devolution, so his legacy, in many ways, does live on.

First Minister, a fortnight ago, you answered questions here in the Chamber from the Conservative leader, Paul Davies, in which you expressed the wishes of the Welsh Government to address the issues of Holocaust denial and the growing prevalence within society of anti-Semitism. Will you reiterate that those wishes still form your outlook and that the Welsh Labour Government is still genuinely committed to tackling these problems?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:04, 19 February 2019

Llywydd, the Welsh Government is committed to challenging stigma wherever that takes place, to protecting the rights of all members of our society, whatever their faith or culture. That is absolutely the case in relation to anti-Semitism, but it is true in relation to forms of abuse that other communities in Wales have experienced, and we are committed to that right across the board.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Okay. Thank you, First Minister, for that commitment. I'm not sure that the Labour Party is likely to be an effective vehicle from which to tackle the specific problem of anti-Semitism, though. We saw yesterday that seven Labour MPs felt moved to leave the Labour Party. One of the reasons they cited being the increasing prevalence of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. Indeed, one of them said that the Labour Party is now institutionally anti-Semitic. Now, we had a Welsh Government statement on this 18 months ago, which talked about training for officials to make them more aware of anti-Semitism and working with Victim Support Cymru to identify instances of this. Given that the problem appears to be increasing, does the Welsh Government now need to do more?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:05, 19 February 2019

I think awareness training is very important and it is essential that, as new challenges emerge, people keep that up to date. And that is true not simply of people who work for the Welsh Government, it's true for people who work in the Welsh Government, and, Llywydd, I would say that it is true of any Member of this Assembly as well. 

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 2:06, 19 February 2019

Yes, I agree with your sentiments, First Minister. I do think you need to look closely at your own party. There has been one investigation by Shami Chakrabarti—[Interrupution.] There has been one investigation by Shami Chakrabarti, which was rather undermined when she immediately joined the Labour Party. Then, within weeks of finishing the so-called inquiry, she was given a Labour frontbench seat in the House of Lords. Hers was clearly a whitewash rather than a genuine inquiry. We now have another inquiry going on in which your party's general secretary refuses to reveal how many complaints of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party she has received, because the truth is just too embarrassing. First Minister, how long can your Welsh Government go on pretending to be against this form of racism when your party is utterly riddled with this problem from top to bottom?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, it is like arriving in a parallel universe to receive questions from the party that embraces Tommy Robinson and the creed that he is prepared to advocate, and then asks for other parties to account for themselves. Let me be clear, Llywydd: there is absolutely no place in my party or anywhere else in Wales for prejudice against people of other races or religions. And that does not simply include those that the Member has referred to today, but all those others that, in the past, he has been prepared to attack in the position that he now occupies.