Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:44 pm on 19 March 2019.

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Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 1:44, 19 March 2019

Thank you. We'll now turn to leaders' questions. The first party leader today is the leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Could I first join in the chorus of hallelujahs around the land that greeted last Saturday's game and the Grand Slam victory, and can I wholly endorse your suggestion, First Minister, made last night on the steps of the Senedd, that when we have the powers to confer honorary Welsh citizenship, then Warren Gatland should be there in the front of the queue? But, of course, we'll have to achieve independence before we have that opportunity for real.

The first issue I want to raise with you today relates to a matter very close to my own heart and, indeed, my own life, which is LGBT+ equality. First Minister, do you believe that faith schools should be allowed to operate differently from non-faith schools in the way they approach their teaching about sexual relationships? I raise this because, as ITV Wales has shown, in this case in the context of Catholic schools, there is confirmation on websites and, indeed, in the testimony of teachers that the belief that gay relationships are morally unacceptable is being presented to children and young people in 2019. Your education Minister, it's reported, is content to continue to allow discretion to Welsh faith schools to teach relationship and sex education in line with their own beliefs. Is that something you support?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:45, 19 March 2019

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, first of all, let me say how much I enjoyed last night's events. I saw the Member there and many other Members behind him, and from all parts of the Chamber joining in with those celebrations.

As far as relationships and sexuality education is concerned, there are consultations that are being carried out at the moment both in relation to our current curriculum and the new curriculum. There are complex rules about the way in which faith schools have certain freedoms, which are not, therefore, directly in the hands of Welsh Government Ministers, but let me address the nub of his question, which is that it is entirely unacceptable to me that the sorts of views that he reported should be expressed in any of our schools, and I want to associate myself directly with what he said about the unacceptability of those sorts of views being promulgated in any classroom, of any sort, and in any part of Wales.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:46, 19 March 2019

I welcome the First Minister saying that this is unacceptable. The point is, of course, to do something about it. In the 1980s, I was told myself, 'I hope to goodness gracious that you don't end up gay.' It wasn't acceptable then, it's certainly not acceptable now, and it's the duty of Government, where we're talking about publicly funded schools—it's the duty of Government to make absolutely clear that should never be on a school website, that should never be the experience of a teacher. So, it's the responsibility of Government to show that there is no discretion, not even in this case. It's not complex: it's very simple as far as I'm concerned.

Turning to another matter, if I may, last Saturday, I took part in the United Nations anti-racism day march in Cardiff alongside your deputy, Jane Hutt. On that march, there were many members of the Kurdish community in Wales who were expressing their hope that this Parliament—indeed, your Government—would be the first in the world to express our solidarity with the Kurdish hunger strikers across Europe. They're protesting against the isolation of the Kurdish leader, Abdullah Öcalan, who's been imprisoned by Turkey since 1999 in conditions that contravene the Turkish state's legal obligations in relation to human rights. As you know, the protesters include Imam Sis, a resident of Newport who has been on an indefinite hunger strike since 17 December last year. First Minister, can you confirm that you will be supporting the motion we have tabled for debate, expressing solidarity with Imam Sis and with the Kurdish community?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:48, 19 March 2019

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to return, to begin with, to the point that the Member made in his opening question, and just to be as clear with him as I can be that the Government is doing exactly what he would wish us to do in engaging with that sector and making clear what our position is and what we believe their position should be as well, and if there is evidence that he has that things are happening that should not happen, then we would certainly want to act on anything that we can pass our way. There is no difference of purpose between us at all on that matter.

The Member then refers to the debate that will happen tomorrow on the floor of the Assembly. My colleague Eluned Morgan will reply to that debate. We will observe the proprieties in relation to the responsibility that we have as a Government while engaging with the substance of the matters that the Member referred to in his second question.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:49, 19 March 2019

(Translated)

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what the First Minister’s just said, so perhaps in responding to my third questions when I’ll raise another issue, he could perhaps just explain whether you’re going to support the motion or not.

To turn to another battle for justice for a language and culture of a stateless nation—not the Kurds in this case, but Wales and the Welsh language—and an area where you have set a laudable aim of creating a million Welsh speakers, and particularly increasing the use of the Welsh language in the workplace, in a report published this morning, the Public Accounts Committee expresses concerns about the delay in delivering the recommendations of a report that proposes a way forward on the internal use of the Welsh language, and the possibility of making skills levels in the Welsh language essential for Welsh Government staff, which is still awaiting agreement from the Government board, two years after they were made. The Government’s explanation to the committee as to why you have sat on that report produced by your senior civil servants without taking a decision was that you were eager to be enlightened by other prominent institutions and organisations. But given the disastrous record of Government on Welsh in the workplace, do you agree that any effort by a Minister to bring pressure to bear on any other public body to dilute their commitment to the Welsh language—for example, in employment policy—would be unacceptable and contrary to Government policy?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:51, 19 March 2019

(Translated)

Deputy Presiding Officer, we want to see organisations throughout Wales promoting the Welsh language in the workplace. We do it here in the Senedd, and we do it internally in Welsh Government, and we are learning lessons—for example, from North Wales Police—and what we want to do is draw on those lessons learned, and draw on what is happening and what is effective in Wales, and to do more in the public bodies to promote the Welsh language, and to give people who are able to use the Welsh language the confidence to do so, and to do more to help them to improve their skills. The Minister is working on that agenda each day.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 1:52, 19 March 2019

Thank you. Leader of the Opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and with your indulgence, can I also take this opportunity to shout 'hallelujah' across the land and congratulate the Welsh rugby team on their fantastic win? And it was also a pleasure to be at last night's event.

First Minister, why have mothers and babies been put at risk at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I don't believe that mothers and babies are now being put at risk because action has been taken—very significant action taken—with the support of the Welsh Government, with the intervention of the royal college, to attend to some disturbing information that came to light. Those actions, I think, are succeeding. There is more for the health board to do, but I believe that the health board is seized of the urgency of those issues; that it has acted on the information that has come forward; that it has a plan in place to carry out further actions; that we will track those actions, together with the royal college, to make sure that not just the board itself, but people outside the board, have confidence in the measures that they have taken and that mothers and babies in that part of Wales can be confident in the service that they are receiving.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:53, 19 March 2019

Well, it's quite clear, First Minister, that your Government failed for too long to get a grip of the dire situation faced by mothers and families under the care of Cwm Taf university health board. It has been several months since we heard the horrifying news of the loss of 26 babies under this health board's care in the space of two years. And, after a surprise visit by the healthcare inspectorate, they've recently highlighted staffing issues responsible for poor quality of care and increased risk to the safety of patients. And indeed, the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report is clear, and it said, and I quote:

'We were concerned about the potential risk to the safety of patients.'

Now, women facing childbirth have the right to expect high-quality care during this difficult time, and the best chances of delivering a healthy baby, but it seems this isn't always the case across some parts of Wales, First Minister. Even in my own constituency, there are grave concerns that the specialist midwife-led maternity unit at Whithybush hospital could now be downgraded to a day service, which will, undoubtedly, risk the safety of mothers and babies. So, can you be clear here today about what steps you are putting in place to end the postcode lottery of maternity services across Wales?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:54, 19 March 2019

Dirprwy Lywydd, first of all, let me be absolutely clear so that the Member need not go on repeating it, that there is no risk of the sort that he has just described to maternity services at Withybush hospital—services that I, myself, have visited, which have some of the most impressive people you will ever meet providing services to women in that part of the world. And there are no proposals of any sort to make a change in the service provided there. I hope that that is helpful to the Member so that his mind and the minds of anybody else can be set at rest.

In relation to the position in Cwm Taf, what the leader of the opposition just described, Dirprwy Lywydd, was the checks and balances that we have in the system here in Wales that allow concerns of the sort that he has identified to be brought to the surface. He referred to the surprise visit of HIW; that is exactly the reason why we have an independent inspectorate able to carry out work in that way. And, of course, it was the concerns that came to light, as a result of that visit and of other actions, that led to my colleague the health Minister taking action in relation to the escalation status of that health board, and to institute other measures—people from outside the health board to come in to report on what they've seen, to give a hard-hitting account of some of the difficulties that they identified, and then to work with that health board to make sure that those matters are put right, and the service that that health board quite rightly prides itself on having provided to that local community can be reinstated in relation to the future services for women and children in that part of Wales.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:56, 19 March 2019

First Minister, of course I accept that your Government has made statements of intent to address the issues at Cwm Taf, but last week's headlines again shone a light on the Royal Glamorgan Hospital's surprise inspection by the health inspectorate following the tragic deaths I mentioned to you earlier. Now, the inspectorate warned of significant staff shortages that continue to risk the safety of patients at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. It has also highlighted the poor working conditions of the remaining highly trained and hard-working medical professionals at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, which are adversely impacting the health, morale and even the safety of midwives and other team members. Now, this came around the same time that we challenged you about shocking statistics that show that we are heading for a midwife staffing crisis in the coming years across the country. Considering that the escalation status has been raised at Cwm Taf, time is of the essence to hear what assurances you, First Minister, and your Government can give to prove that you are tackling problems with this health board and that you are working to protect the mothers and babies of this area. And when will we now see the promised report into what went wrong at Cwm Taf, to which your Minister committed back in January?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:58, 19 March 2019

Well, I thank the Member for that question, because it allows me just to put on the record the actions that the health board itself, with the support of the Welsh Government, has taken since the events, which were published last week but happened before Christmas, have taken place. Because the health board has certainly not ignored any of that information. It has instituted changes to staffing, to oversight of staffing. It has changed the way in which services are provided between the Royal Glamorgan Hospital and Prince Charles Hospital; it has further changes that it has in line, it has changed the way in which weekend rotas are organised and overseen. These are really practical steps that have been taken in response to the information that the Member referred to. The Minister has been to Cwm Taf, he has met with midwives there. Their training, their oversight is really important in this. It is why, Dirprwy Lywydd, we are training record numbers of midwives through the training system that we have here in Wales—numbers that have gone up, I think, every year for the last three years, as we prepare for the workforce that we will need in the future. These are simple, practical measures that we are determined to take, that the health board is determined to take, and, together, they will lead to real improvements in the position that was identified during that visit by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 1:59, 19 March 2019

Thank you. Leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I also add my congratulations to Warren Gatland and the Welsh rugby squad for the achievement of another grand slam? Let's hope that the unbeaten run continues up to the World Cup, during the World Cup and, hopefully, throughout the World Cup this coming autumn. [Interruption.] No, not the rugby.

First Minister, one of the areas that you're very interested in is pay inequality. In your personal manifesto, which you brought out last year, you said that, and I quote,

'We must bring fresh energies to tackle inequality in pay'.

It seems to me that one of the causes of pay inequality in Wales is that we have a number of people in public sector organisations who appear to be on ludicrously high salaries. For instance, we have the chief executive of Cardiff council, which is run by your Welsh Labour Party, on a salary of £170,000 a year, which is significantly more than the Prime Minister, and yet this is a council that can't even organise a bus station for the city. Would you agree with me, First Minister, that one way of tackling low pay and pay inequality is to put an end to the ludicrously high salaries of people like the chief executive of Cardiff council?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:01, 19 March 2019

Well, first of all, Dirprwy Lywydd, that was not the sort of pay inequality to which I was referring. I was referring, of course, to the much more mainstream ideas of gender pay inequality in the public services here in Wales. I am, myself, a believer in a system in which there is a multiplier between the pay of the lowest paid in an organisation and the highest paid in an organisation, and that that should be at an agreed and fixed rate, and then you get pressure on pay inequalities to raise the pay of those at the bottom of the pay scale, who are far more numerous in number, of course, rather than a populist focus on individuals in other parts of the spectrum.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

Well, you've advocated the multiplier. We will look into that and see how effective that is and how effectively you're actually overseeing that in Wales in terms of local government. The Cardiff council chief executive is only one example of the problem that I'm highlighting today. We do have an increasing number of public sector officials in Wales on six-figure salaries. Now, we are in an era of austerity, as you keep telling us. Local councils are having to close down facilities because of their budgets being cut. But the top tier of council officials seem to be some kind of protected species who are still allowed to take home ridiculous salaries. We have the nonsense of Caerphilly council, also run by Welsh Labour, where a dispute over pay to three senior officers has led to the council wasting more than £4 million. We have a chief executive there who hasn't come into work for six years, and he's being paid £130,000 a year to do precisely nothing. And still, the situation hasn't been resolved. First Minister, how do you tally your constant wailing about austerity with the fact that we have a tier of fat-cat bureaucrats in Wales in the public sector, which is overseen by you, who are making such extraordinarily high sums of money?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:03, 19 March 2019

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, if the Member is interested in the multiplier, then the facts and figures are there for him to take an interest in that topic. He will find that the gap between the lowest paid and the highest paid in the Welsh Government is the narrowest in the public sector in Wales, and that's because we are in charge of the Welsh Government. The Member's interest in local government would be better pursued directly with those councils who have the responsibility for the matter that he is raising.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP

I see that you have, once again, tried to evade your scrutiny of local government, which clearly is under the overall oversight of your Welsh Government here at the Assembly. The Caerphilly situation has been dragging on since 2012, so I think it now warrants some public comment from you, bearing in mind as well that one of your previous roles was as local government Minister. So, this ongoing fiasco has certainly been on your watch. In human terms, the salary of a chief executive who is being paid to stay at home would more or less cover the cost of running Pontllanfraith leisure centre, which is threatened with closure. First Minister, would you agree that the closure of facilities like leisure centres is the human cost of your Welsh Labour Party bending over backwards to help out its cronies in senior management positions in the Welsh public sector?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:04, 19 March 2019

Well, it's nonsensical, Dirprwy Lywydd. It doesn't strike a chord, even with those sitting around him. Let's be clear: the position in Caerphilly is one that is not satisfactory to anybody, but there is a process, which is there, that we are all bound by. It is nothing at all to do with any individuals or any organisations. The Welsh Government discharged its part of that responsibility in appointing an independent person to oversee the next stage in that process. I gave an undertaking to Hefin David, the local Member, when I was the Minister responsible, that as soon as the current system has worked its way through, we will institute a review of it. It is not satisfactory. It does not work. It does not deliver for local residents or for the council itself. But, when you are in a process, you have a legal obligation to see it through. People can make as much nonsense of it as they like. In a mature democracy, if there is a law that you have to abide by, then that is exactly what we will have to do. Then, we will see how that law can be changed, so that there is a more satisfactory process for the future.