Item 5 on our agenda is a debate on Stage 4 of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion.  

Motion NDM7003 Llyr Gruffydd

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:

Approves the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's my pleasure to present the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill to the National Assembly for Wales for its approval. I hope, indeed, that Members will support the Bill this afternoon because the Bill will strengthen the ombudsman’s role in order to protect the most vulnerable in our society, improve social justice, and, of course, drive improvements in public services and complaints handling.

Now, today marks the culmination of a process that began back in 2015, when the Finance Committee of the fourth Assembly, chaired by Jocelyn Davies, conducted an inquiry to consider extending the ombudsman’s powers. On behalf of both the fourth and fifth Assembly Finance Committees, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the various consultations that have helped inform and shape the Bill today.

I would also like to thank Members for the constructive and collaborative approach to this legislation, and this is the first Bill to be taken through the Assembly by a committee. That was based on our shared desire to ensure that the most vulnerable individuals, who are often most reliant on our public services, feel confident complaining to the ombudsman and that they have the right to a fair response to their complaint.

And, I am grateful to the Assembly committees that have been responsible for scrutinising the Bill, namely the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee and, especially, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and its Chair, John Griffiths. Now, this Bill has been improved as a result of that scrutiny. For example, the Bill now ensures that the ombudsman is required to consult specified persons, such as commissioners, when carrying out own-initiative investigations, and the Bill now requires the ombudsman to maintain a register of all the complaints received. The Bill also strengthens the Welsh language duties and responsibilities placed on the ombudsman.

At Stage 2, the Members expressed concerns about the accountability of the ombudsman for the future. Before today's vote, I would like to assure Members that I have had initial discussions with the Chairs of the Public Accounts Committee and the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee with regard to the oversight arrangements of the Assembly, and how they can be strengthened in future through our responsibilities for appointing the ombudsman, scrutinising the annual report and accounts of the ombudsman and, of course, the duty to review the implementation of the Act.

Now, the next steps in terms of the Bill's implementation, of course, include receiving Royal Assent, commencement by Welsh Ministers, working with the ombudsman to ensure that he has consulted widely before the provisions come into force. It's also a requirement that the Secretary of State makes the necessary consequential amendments to UK Parliament Acts, and this is with regard to the ombudsman's work on a joint basis with the ombudsmen in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and some provisions with regard to the general data protection regulation—the GDPR— which is, of course, beyond the competence of this Assembly. And while some practical issues are to be worked through, the Secretary of State's office has noted that it is willing to deal with the necessary consequential legislation, and that is, of course, to be welcomed very much.

Now, it has been a long journey to reach Stage 4 as we have arrived at today, and I ask Assembly Members to support the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill.

I thank the Member in charge for all his hard work and for the non-partisan and consensual manner in which he has worked with other parties throughout the Bill process. It's been one of the rare occasions that all parties have generally agreed on a piece of legislation. However, I was disappointed, of course, that my own proposed amendments were unsuccessful.

The ombudsman plays a vital role in ensuring that any member of the public who believes that they've suffered injustice through maladministration or service failure by a public body is able to make a complaint with the reassurance that their complaint will be dealt with fairly and independently by the ombudsman. To this end, we welcome the extension to his powers within this Bill, but, of course, increased power brings increased responsibility with it.

Our unsuccessful Stage 3 amendments included one to ensure that the ombudsman considers the resources of town and community councils when preparing their model complaints-handling procedure and another to ensure that the ombudsman takes into consideration the Nolan principles applying to the ethical standards expected of public office holders when undertaking investigations into complaints against public bodies. We feel that these would have strengthened the Bill.

As I stated at Stage 3, One Voice Wales, representing town and community councils in Wales, had written to me stating that they do have concerns about the model complaints procedure. They further noted that most town and community councils in Wales are incredibly small and employ just one clerk who would normally or likely work on a part-time basis. I've also since received correspondence from the North and Mid Wales Association of Local Councils, which refers to the model complaints procedure on Welshpool Town Council's website and recommends that town councils deal with their own complaints in the first instance where they wish to adopt a code in that regard.

I note that the Member in charge stated at Stage 3 that he has

'included some commentary on this issue in the revised explanatory memorandum to the Bill' and his view

'is that that sufficiently addresses the concerns expressed'.

We therefore hope that he's proved correct in this respect.

I also note his statement at Stage 3 that he's

'ensured the revised explanatory memorandum now makes it explicit that in holding public office or working in the public sector, the ombudsman and the listed authorities are required to have regard to the Nolan principles.'

We remain of the view that this is critical where complaints to the ombudsman frequently relate to matters to which the alleged conduct of officers are integral and, at the very least, evidence submitted to the ombudsman by said officers in relation to these complaints must be considered in the context of a potential conflict of interest. However, we are generally supportive of the Bill before us today and particularly welcome the aspects of this Bill that allow the ombudsman to initiate his or her own investigations, and which increase the mediums by which people can complain, rather than just by writing, thereby creating a more accessible complaints process. Diolch.

I declare an interest as a county councillor. I won't be supporting this legislation. In Catalunya, they do politics by judiciary—the unionists, that is. And in Labour Wales, we have politics by tribunal. The abuses of the system are actually very similar in principle. I feel we have an ombudsman system lacking in integrity, lacking in accountability of the ombudsman himself, who uses gagging orders, refuses to disclose e-mails and operates with a basic lack of fairness and a lack of transparency.

I want to give you an example of a confidential investigation by the ombudsman, and the person who was confidentially being investigated received a phone call and text messages from a serving Member of this Assembly after discussing the case with the ombudsman. Now, I know that's true because the person was me. I got the text messages; I had the call; I had the discussion and was warned not to take on the ombudsman. I was told I couldn't win, and I think that, with hindsight, in a factual sense, that was correct but morally completely wrong. When there was a tribunal—and I'm talking about the fairness of the system here—I was not allowed to present those text messages as evidence of a lack of transparency, a lack of fairness in the system. The local government ombudsman in Wales is used as a political weapon to stamp out the sense, to stop questions being asked, and it's a way of trying to exert control over politicians. I will oppose this legislation because this office of the ombudsman—and some people may not want to hear this, looking at the reactions around the room—this office of the ombudsman is used in a highly undemocratic way, and I will not support this legislation. 

Can I call the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd to speak?

Well, I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Member in charge, Llyr Gruffydd, and the Finance Committee and their supporting officials for their time and their work over the last year. The Finance Committee has worked really constructively with the Welsh Government to ensure that the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill, which we have before us today, is an effective and robust piece of legislation and one that will help strengthen public services in Wales and support public accountability. I hope that Members will be able to support it. I would also like to thank the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their detailed scrutiny of the Bill and put on record my thanks to those Members who were part of the fourth Assembly's Finance Committee and Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee, which were very instrumental in preparing the ground work for this Bill. Beyond this Chamber, I'd like to thank all of those across Wales who have contributed to the development of this Bill through various inquiries and consultations, undertaken both recently and during the fourth Assembly. 

Throughout the National Assembly's consideration of this Bill, the value of the service of the ombudsman has been very clear. The ombudsman's office helps those people who have been let down by services and haven't received the level of service that they're entitled to expect. This Bill will support access to the ombudsman's services for vulnerable people, including, for the first time, those who have been let down by private healthcare companies. It grants the ombudsman the new powers to investigate systemic problems on their own initiative where there is evidence of widespread, repetitive and deep-rooted problems, and it will also allow the ombudsman to play a leading role in improving standards in complaints handling across the public sector. This should lead to more complaints being resolved at the first point of contact rather than people having to resort to the ombudsman, and this Bill will make it easier for people to complain to the ombudsman when issues do need to be escalated. The extensive amendments the Finance Committee has made to this Bill since its introduction ensure that it will achieve these aims effectively and will preserve the primacy of complaints processes agreed by the National Assembly.

At the core of this Bill is the principle that healthy and effective complaints processes are a key source of feedback for public bodies and a driver to improve the services that we offer the people of Wales. In that spirit, I hope that Members will support the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill today, ensuring that Wales continues to be at the leading edge of ombudsman legislation and supporting our public services to be responsive to the needs of people in Wales. 

Thank you. Can I now call Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I first of all thank Mark Isherwood for his contribution and the way that he as well has engaged in this process? You are right: I have, sort of, recognised some of the issues that you raised and hopefully the revised explanatory memorandum, as you referred to, will be borne out to be true to what I believe is the situation and I'm sure that is the case. Can I thank the Minister as well for her contribution and, again, for the co-operation that we've had with Government officials in dealing with this legislation?

In terms of Neil McEvoy's comments, I am disappointed that he's used this opportunity to make some of the points that he has made, although he's perfectly within his right to do that. I won't comment on any individual cases. We know that there are ways and means for people to pursue any of those concerns that they may have. I could not disagree more in terms of his accusation that the ombudsman lacks integrity, lacks accountability, lacks fairness and lacks transparency. My biggest disappointment is that the Member lacked any interest in previous stages of this Bill, where he could have brought forward amendments to change any deficiencies in the law. He chose not to do so. He sat on his hands when he had an opportunity to put forward amendments to this Bill, changes to this Bill, which would have started to maybe address some of the concerns that he has raised. He didn't do so, so, clearly, it wasn't that much of a concern to him. So, I regret his choice to sit on his hands and to come here and grandstand in front of us. And I'm sure we'll all see through that for what it is.

I therefore want to add to the thanks that I gave earlier to everyone—or almost everyone—who has engaged in this process. I want to thank, in particular, the Commission staff, particularly the clerks, the clerking team and the legal services team of the Finance Committee, for their great support and for all the work that they have done to bring us to this point in the process. With those few words, may I ask Members to support the Bill this afternoon and to open a new chapter, in so doing, in the work of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and in the support that there is for the citizens of Wales, particularly those who are most dependent on our public services?

Thank you. In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, so I defer voting on this motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.