Item 6 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee's report on the mobile action plan update, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Russell George.

Motion NDM6998 Russell George

The National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee on its Inquiry: Mobile Action Plan Update, which was laid in the Table Office on 24 January 2019

Motion moved.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in my name. This report before us today looks at the progress with the Welsh Government's mobile action plan, and follows on from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee's 2017 inquiry into digital infrastructure in Wales, when we recommended that the Welsh Government should make firm commitments to collaborate with the UK Government, regulators and the industry to improve digital connectivity and support infrastructure needed for better mobile coverage.

We all know mobile connectivity is now a vital service for the people living and working in Wales, just as water and electricity are. We all know how annoying it is to be without our phones for two hours or a day, or perhaps in some cases—Suzy Davies has just whispered to me—it's lovely; it depends on how you look at it. But Wales still lags some way behind other parts of the UK in terms of coverage, and so this has been an important area of committee scrutiny.

Our update report looked at what has been achieved by the Welsh Government since its mobile action plan, which was launched in October 2017, and we made 10 recommendations. Now, what I'm going to say next I would like to say in every opening of a committee debate for the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee: I welcome the Government's acceptance of all our recommendations and the general positive tone of the response.

The Welsh Government’s response starts by emphasising that telecommunications is a reserved matter, and that it does not hold all the levers to improve mobile coverage. I'd respond to that it two ways. While it's true, it was the Welsh Government, of course, that brought forward the mobile action plan, so, of course, it's not unreasonable for the committee and stakeholders to demand that those planned actions are delivered with urgency. And, secondly, the Welsh Government clearly has a number of levers at its disposal. So, I therefore focus my opening remarks on those areas where the Welsh Government does hold the levers and can set the pace, in particular in relation to planning and business rates, and by collaborating with providers to deliver infill solutions for coverage in hard-to-reach areas.

On planning, the committee made two recommendations: one on best practice guidance and one on allowing higher mast heights under the permitted planning regime. It was obviously very pleasing to see the announcement last month that the rules around mast heights in Wales have finally been relaxed so that masts of up to 25m do not have to go through the full planning permission process. This means that, from next month, the rules in Wales will now be in line with those in Scotland and England. This is something the committee first recommended in its digital infrastructure report in 2017, when we said that the Welsh Government

'should reform the planning regime to support investment in digital connectivity, in particular to allow the installation of masts that cover a wider geographical range.'

We also said that the Welsh Government should work with operators and planning authorities to ensure that plans are clearly communicated to the affected communities, and that the key benefits of mobile connectivity are actively promoted. Although mobile coverage has increased in Wales since 2017, our report found that the role the action plan had played in that improvement was unclear, and we called on the Welsh Government to use its devolved levers to tip the scales of commercial viability in favour of further investment in some problem areas.

We also recommended that the Welsh Government continues to engage with mobile operators and other stakeholders to capture best practice and include that in the revised and consolidated code of best practice and technical advice note 19. The Government has said it will consider a review of TAN 19 when further work on the permitted development rights regulations and the national development framework is complete, and indicated that work is unlikely to begin until 2020.

While I understand the need to undertake this work in a logical order, we do need to move as quickly as possible on this. The clear message from us on the committee and from the industry was that rapid action is needed to ensure that Wales does not fall further behind. The latest Ofcom figures show that, on almost all measures of mobile coverage, Wales is behind the UK average. So, for geographic 4G coverage by all four mobile operators, we are at 57 per cent, compared to a UK average of 66 per cent. I note from the Government’s response that it believes there is scope to combine TAN 19 and the code of practice into one document, and to perhaps adopt the approach taken in England by having mobile providers take a lead on this work. 

Obviously when it comes to planning there will always need to be a balance struck between the need for base stations to provide coverage and local community concerns about the landscape, but we must recognise the expectations, I think, of the 90 per cent of people who use mobile phones that they should have full mobile connectivity.

The persistent gaps in coverage are not just between Wales and the other UK nations, but they're also between rural and urban areas of Wales. I am all too aware of this, of course, from my own constituency of Montgomeryshire. The committee considered how a rural roaming obligation might help in areas of poor coverage, although we recognise that it won't help if you are in a notspot area where there is no network to roam onto, and the frustrations of having calls drop out. Nevertheless, we recommended that the Welsh Government should continue to lobby mobile providers for rural wholesale access, and if they do not respond positively, for the Welsh Government to call on the UK Government to make this mandatory through Ofcom, as part of the package of measures to increase coverage. I appreciate that Welsh Government is pursuing this issue, and I'm encouraged that they continue to press the case.

With regard to our recommendation that Welsh Government engages with mobile operators on the merits of business rate relief, it is also welcome that the Government says it is looking at the role of a non-domestic rate support scheme as part of the interventions to tackle specific notspots.

Of course, while we are trying to remedy the problems with 4G coverage, talk has already started to move on to the roll-out of the next generation of mobile connectivity, 5G, and that was mentioned in contributions and questions earlier today. The benefits of 5G, to deliver faster and better broadband, and to potentially—[Interruption.] I'll take it in a moment, if I can, Suzy.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

All right, yes.

—and to potentially revolutionise the manufacturing, transport and healthcare sectors, are highly anticipated. But 5G is unlikely to extend the coverage of mobile networks, as it is more about increasing the capacity of the network than extending its reach. And the technology for 5G does not directly benefit from the change in permitted development rules, as 5G networks are likely to see greater deployment of small base stations, making mast heights less of an issue. But it's still important, though, to ask what the Welsh Government is doing to make Wales 5G ready. We need to be making sure that the Welsh Government is 5G ready. So, we would obviously be interested in the Minister's views on what could be done to maximise the opportunities of 5G technology for Wales. I'll take an intervention from Suzy Davies.

Thank you very much, Russell. You mentioned 5G there. Of course, that's another technology that involves a level of electromagnetic field. Obviously, there's already existing guidance on people who have a sensitivity to this, to limit their exposure to it, but I just wondered, as the Government is looking at 5G roll-out—and I completely agree with the benefits of this—whether potential health questions are considered as part of that process.

I thank Suzy Davies for the intervention. It is rather a new technology that is still yet to be rolled out. Certainly, Members of the committee have had members of the public contact us in regard to that question, but the official guidance is saying that there is no health risk for humans or animals. That is the official guidance that is provided. But, clearly, I'd be interested in the Minister's response to that point as well. 

If we are to achieve coverage in Wales that is comparable with the UK as a whole, then the Welsh Government, I do think, needs to do more with the levers at its disposal, so I therefore call on the Minister to outline any areas in which the Welsh Government is leading the way. Let's find out where the Welsh Government is leading the way of all the UK nations. I look forward to hearing views from colleagues and from the Minister, and of course I commend this report to the Assembly.

I'd like to thank the Chair for his opening remarks. I didn't, to my recollection, take part in all of the inquiry, but I was there for the tail end, and it's obviously an important issue that affects us all. I do welcome the Welsh Government looking ahead to the future and looking at ways of developing infrastructure. However, there are huge gaps in coverage across Wales, particularly in rural areas, and that's no surprise to anybody. Areas of my region, particularly in the northern Valleys and Gower, are not connected well enough, and some areas seem to have hit a wall in how they can get connected. There is a need to remember, moving forward, that we don't forget communities who may not be perfectly located when establishing 5G networks. There should be equitable distribution across Wales so as to allow areas that are underdeveloped a chance to catch up. 

I think it's important to note that large parts of Wales don't even have adequate 4G signal across four networks or more, so talks of 5G could be viewed as very premature in some areas of the country. It's not to say that 5G shouldn't be developed, but it's to say that we need to establish the development of 4G before we potentially move forward.

In terms of better connectivity on a broader level, the Welsh Government at the moment seems to have hit a wall in terms of high-speed and superfast broadband. I've also asked questions in this place before on capacity issues too. We know that in parts of Wales, particularly in areas of high self-employment, people's economic security can depend on their connectivity. It means whether a business is successful or not, so we really need to get to grips with how businesses can get past this particular hurdle.

We have to ensure that a full suite of connectivity options is available, making sure that existing technology is rolled out equitably across Wales. In terms of 5G, I'm still concerned there is a risk we could be left behind, so I think it would be useful to have some clarity from the Government here today on how they are integrating 5G delivery plans with the existing delivery of improving 4G across multiple networks.

I found this really interesting, this topic of connectivity in the modern age, and there were a few things that clearly came out and that I will focus on. One of them was the shared masts element, where you don't have to keep, time and time again, putting up different masts to get the same result if one mast is shared by companies. The Minister told us in the discussions that we had that she had had talks with people in the Home Office so that they would do some futureproofing on those masts. We heard from EE that they were developing 40 new sites, and others were developing their sites, and that they were prepared to share those masts in those sites. So, I think it is important that we do that, because we have heard, and Suzy Davies raised it now, that people are concerned about the health implications of putting up multiple masts on multiple sites. So, maybe that would go some way to help with that.

What we must do is make sure that all communities move forward together here. We can’t have people left behind in what is now a digital age. I’ve had e-mails from people who are actually going somewhere away from their home in order to access some connectivity, just so that they can do that. I’ve heard about people sitting in their cars with their children, so that they can complete their homework. That is definitely not satisfactory. And we know that people are moving more and more to doing everything on their phones, and far less on their computers, and I suppose that we are all guilty of doing that.

I know from experience, in covering my area in Mid and West Wales, that there are plenty of notspots, and I’ve got two phones, and they're on two different networks, but it still doesn’t ensure that I have complete coverage wherever it is that I go. And even if I had all the networks and all the phones to go with them, I would still experience notspots. So, we really need to do something about that.

We’ve heard from the providers, when they’ve asked the Minister for reduced business rates, and the Minister quite rightly said that that has to make commercial sense, that we can’t just reduce business rates unless there is going to be a return for that subsidy—because it will be a subsidy into a private business—to give something back to that community. And in terms of small and medium-sized enterprises—and those are the majority of businesses that are in my area—they do have to have connectivity just even to start up. But if we are asking them to grow and to develop, there is no way that that can be done in a digital age without the high-speed connectivity that they absolutely have to have for that to happen.

The importance of mobile connectivity has grown exponentially over the past few years, with mobile phone ownership in Wales said to be standing at over 90 per cent for adults—and, from my own experience, it may be even greater with children. Of these mobile phone users in Wales, 57 per cent report using a mobile phone to go online. Therefore, the importance of such connectivity has increased enormously over a relatively short period of time. The question, then, is: has the industry kept pace with these developments? For Wales, unfortunately, the answer has to be ‘no’. Statistics show we have the lowest coverage in the UK. It is concerning, therefore, to read in the Welsh Government’s response to recommendation 4 of the economy and infrastructure committee's report that Ofcom are consulting on their obligations. Their current proposal is setting coverage obligations for Wales at 83 per cent, whilst that for England and Northern Ireland is set at 90 per cent. This is surely nothing short of an insult to Wales. Can we be assured that the Welsh Government will be more than forceful in its deliberations with Ofcom, demanding nothing short of parity with other parts of the UK?

We all know that the planning regime has a key part to play in mobile phone coverage across Wales. It is therefore imperative that the planning regime is as flexible and conducive as possible, reflecting both the topography and population distribution of Wales. All mobile operators were of the opinion that increasing the permissible height of masts from 15 to 30m could have a dramatic effect on coverage, and it is good to see that the Welsh Government, although not going to the 30m, has now agreed to 25m masts. And as Joyce Watson pointed out, it is imperative that these masts are shared. We understand from the operators that a greater height in masts will allow a greater amount of sharing. So, it will be important for the Welsh Government to make sure that they are implementing what they say they are.

We all know that the planning regime has a key part to play in mobile phone coverage across Wales. It is therefore imperative that the planning—. Sorry, I do apologise.

If Wales is to have a mobile coverage network fit for the twenty-first century, it may have to call on innovative methods to cover the many notspots that now exist. The Welsh Government should do all that it can to encourage such innovation. The importance of our emergency services and their ability to save lives depends on the emergency services mobile communications programme—ESMCP. It has received support from the Home Office in providing funding for masts in areas where it is not viable for service providers to do so. Given the comment by EE that they were reaching the edges of commercial viability in terms of direct investment, the Welsh Government should be exploring every possible opportunity to share some of ESMCP's facilities. As EE's comments obviously relate to the topography of Wales, should we look at how parts of Scotland manage with similar topographical restraints?

In summary, it must be recognised that the Welsh Government has done an excellent job of rolling out internet connectivity over a short period of time, but we must see the same robustness apply to the mobile network, which will take an increasing part in connectivity over the coming years. We must acknowledge that 5G, the next new innovation to the mobile network, is rapidly expanding. Wales must be ready to embrace this latest innovation. We cannot be seen to be lagging behind in adopting this new technology. Indeed, if we are to attract high-tech industries to Wales, it is imperative that we are at the forefront of providing such technologies.

As a member of the economy committee, I'm of course very pleased to speak in this debate today on the mobile action plan. It's something that I know, Deputy Minister, impacts businesses in my constituency, and something I'm really passionate about. So, I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted all recommendations from the committee's report, which some Members have alluded to before me. I think it shows how serious the Welsh Government is about working together to ensure we don't fall short in our ambition to become a global 5G leader, but with that in mind, we do know that competition is fierce on a global stage, and that the UK, unfortunately, as a whole is behind, which is something we need to address.

Llywydd, six countries are already adopting 5G technology, and they include the United States, Japan and China, just to name a few. Now, I spoke about automation and 5G in a statement last year, but I want to take a slightly different approach today, and I want to focus on the impact 5G can have and two things in particular: autonomous vehicles and remote healthcare. Now 5G networks can respond fast enough to co-ordinate self-driving cars, either with cars talking to a central controller at a road intersection, or communicating directly with each other. We sometimes think that this type of technology is years away, and miles away from being a reality, but, actually, we're already seeing companies make Tesla make huge strides in this market. Other companies and experts are already discussing how 5G technology could lead to no traffic lights in the streets—there are cars that are crossing, but they're not bumping into each other. Once all cars have sensors and cameras, they could also capture continuous video footage. Now, if there's an unfortunate accident you'll be able to view video from all angles, not just from the cars involved, but from cars all in the same area at the same time.

Moving to remote healthcare, we know that getting 5G right could permit doctors to perform procedures remotely. The lag time is so miniscule that doctors could use robots to operate on you from 1,000 miles away. People in remote regions across the world can be treated by specialists from wherever, something that is pretty amazing in my eyes.

So, Llywydd, how do we make what seems to be futuristic today's reality? Now, it is possible, because we know that other countries are already leading the way, as I've said before. It requires us to ask difficult questions and rethink how we've been rolling out technology developments in the past here in Wales and in the UK. Should we really wait until everyone is on 4G, and run the risk of certain areas missing out on the opportunity of being 5G pioneers? Now, to be clear, I do want every part of this country to have the best connectivity, but I also want us to jump at the opportunities that are out there in the present.

My generation knows nothing other than technology, so there's no reason why we shouldn't have 5G in our lives. We should, as a Government, as a country, be doing 4G and 5G projects simultaneously, alongside ensuring we have gigabit cities and hubs like I've suggested in the past. Llywydd, there's been a lot of discussion in this Chamber, and it's often about looking to the future. But we are out of touch if we think that's the case with 5G, because with 5G, the future is here and it's now. Diolch.

The Deputy Minister to respond to the debate—Lee Waters.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you to everybody who's taken part for the constructive nature of the contributions, and a particular thanks to the committee for the considered and diligent work they undertook on their inquiry and for their report. I know there was some particularly noteworthy contributions to the work of the committee from people who are no longer members of the committee, so I think we owe our thanks to them too. [Interruption.] I am talking about myself, yes. [Laughter.] 

To be able to use your mobile devices to access the internet, as many Members have said, is an essential part of modern life, and that's going to become more so as the internet of things and 5G develops apace, which is why we think this needs to be regulated as a key utility by the UK Government. But it is not. Telecommunications policy is not devolved, and the main levers for improving mobile coverage and capacity rest with Ofcom, as the regulator, and the UK Government. And I believe there's more that Ofcom and the UK Government could do to improve mobile connectivity in Wales. And Bethan Sayed has talked about broadband—nicely leveraged into this debate—where the Welsh Government has demonstrated what it can do, even though it's not devolved. But to reach the remaining part of the population we're struggling with, it does require UK action in tandem—the same is true for mobile. Clearly, our topography and population density poses challenges. Providing the necessary connectivity requires more mobile infrastructure than it would in other parts of the UK, and that's reflected in the current levels of coverage. 

Would you take an intervention?

I would.

I know he was making a frivolous point about being a previous member of the committee, but can he identify any issues within this report and any views he holds that have changed as a result of becoming a Minister in the Government? Has his perspective changed significantly as a result of that experience?

Well, I think the fact that the report has been accepted in full suggests that I was convinced by the analysis and the evidence I heard by the committee, and, to be fair, I don't think anything the Minister said at the time—Julie James—when she gave evidence to us, is different from what the Government is saying now. I'm more than happy to admit when I have changed my mind or changed my view, but in this case I think it's more of a seamless evolution. 

The picture has improved over recent years as a result of the continued commercial roll-outs of the mobile network operators, but there are still significant areas, particularly rural areas, where there is no reliable mobile coverage. And I'm very concerned that in its consultation on the award of new spectrum to pave the way for 5G, Ofcom is proposing much lower targets for Wales than other parts of the UK. In England and Northern Ireland, they plan to require 90 per cent of the population to be covered, and in Wales they're setting the target at 83 per cent. And as David Rowlands rightly pointed out, that is clearly unjust, and will simply perpetuate the existing challenges and disadvantages Wales has in providing data and digital services. David Rowlands asked the Government to be forceful, and we have submitted a consultation response to Ofcom, and we have sent that to the committee so they see that at this stage, so that they're able to mobilise their rightful indignation as well, to try and get this changed.

For Ofcom and the UK Government have a central role in addressing many of the points raised in the committee's report, and the spectrum option provides a rare opportunity to make a real difference in improving mobile connectivity in Wales. That's why we're urging them to reconsider, and I hope the committee will join the Government in echoing that call.

That said, there are areas where the Welsh Government can act to make a difference and we're committed to do what we can. We welcome the challenge and the scrutiny of the committee to make sure that we are doing as much as we can, when we can do it, and for you to give us the odd constructive prod when you think we could do more. I think that is a helpful part of the scrutiny that this place exists to do.

The action plan focuses on nine key areas where the Welsh Government can use its levers. In some of these areas, our role is one of facilitation, and in others we can intervene more directly. We have made progress in a number of key areas. We have introduced a new 'Planning Policy Wales' document, which encourages planning authorities and mobile operators to work collaboratively. From 1 April, the height of masts allowed under permitted development will rise from 15m to 25m, or 20m in protected landscapes. That is a significant additional rise, without requiring planning permission. It's open still for mobile providers, if they want and can justify higher masts, to go through the planning process to give communities their say, which we think is right. 

The forthcoming national development framework is likely to provide more proactive policies for local planning authorities and the industry to act in areas of limited or no coverage. I heard what Russell George said about TAN 19, and I can report to the Chamber that our officials met with the industry yesterday and had a very constructive dialogue. Once the national development framework is completed in the summer, we will approach the industry to co-produce a best practice guide. But, as we say, it is still open for them to do as they've done in England and take the lead. But we'll do what we can to work with them on that. 

On 5G, we have commissioned Innovation Point to identify and develop up to three strategic projects, and we expect this work to be completed shortly. For those Members who highlighted the health concerns, I too as a constituency Member have had that correspondence, and I think it's right that we're vigilant about this new technology as it emerges. We currently take advice from Public Health Wales and Public Health England on this and we keep that under review. 5G is still a technology at its very early stages, and we'll make sure that, as that is rolled out, it continues to comply with the guidance and the standards we'd expect it to. It's important that we maintain public confidence in doing that. 

Moving on, Transport for Wales has commissioned, through their rail contract, TfW Rail Services to deliver improved mobile connectivity on the rail network. By owning the rail network now, we have the opportunity to use the land to host masts and to host improvements in connectivity. Publicly funded masts built under the new communications contract for the emergency services will be futureproofed by deploying larger mast bases and robust towers capable of supporting multiple operators, as Joyce Watson referenced. We are developing a more local approach to improving mobile connectivity in specific mobile action zones. There, we can target interventions such as business rates relief where we think there's a case for acting where the market otherwise wouldn't act. 

We're engaging with local authorities and the operators to develop a business case for investment by the public sector in mobile infrastructure and we're currently developing proposals for a non-domestic rates support scheme where it can be combined with other interventions such as publicly funded infrastructure in the zones and working with local authorities on how the planning system could be used to encourage the deployment of infrastructure into the mobile action zones. So, there are some practical steps that we can do and we are working on.

We've expressed many times over recent years our belief that mobile roaming focused on rural areas should play a central role in improving mobile connectivity in partial notspots. Ofcom has indicated a willingness to look at that, as has the UK Government. Clearly, it's not ideal, because, in the rural area, if you are roaming, your call will drop out and you'd have to reconnect to another operator, but at the moment your call just drops out and doesn't connect to anybody, so, clearly it would be an improvement.

So, I think, Llywydd, overall, we have made good progress. We are working in partnership. The main levers do not lie with us, but we've not used that as an excuse to do nothing. But I'm sure there's more we can do and I look forward to working with the Member to identify that, so that, together, we can improve the service for the people of Wales. 

The Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—Russell George.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I thank Members for taking part in the debate this afternoon? Bethan Sayed, right at the beginning of the debate, pointed out, of course, those people in those notspot areas. And whilst some people who might be watching this debate will be screaming at the screen, saying, 'Hang on, we can't even get any signal at all, why are you talking about 5G?', of course one technology can complement the other. It's not a competition between the two, and Bethan, of course, wasn't even suggesting that. I'm very pleased that Bethan pointed that out. And what I can say to those people who are in those notspot areas is that they certainly do have the ear of the committee, and it's certainly, I think, my view that those areas should go straight from notspot areas to the latest technology. That should be the case. 

Joyce Watson pointed out a number of areas. One area that she touched on, of course, is the importance for business to be connected. That is very, very important—that we are not left behind and that business does have good connectivity. And I'm reminded of the example of the advice that farmers are given, from a health and safety point of view, to always keep their mobile phones in their pockets—don't keep it on the dashboard in the tractor, because, if you have an accident, you might not be able to get to it. But what use is that advice if you've got no signal, which is so often the case in very rural areas where farmers are lone working? 

I think Joyce Watson and David Rowlands both also touched on higher masts and the need for operators to share infrastructure as well. Operators are doing that, which is welcome, and what they tell us is that, if it's easier for them to have taller masts, then they're more likely to share. Well, now we're seeing that change in the planning regime, we'll of course have a close eye on the mobile operators to see that they're doing just that. 

David Rowlands also mentioned—and so did the Deputy Minister—Ofcom's 700 MHz spectrum auction, and I think the Deputy Minister put a challenge out to committee to also lobby Ofcom to raise the bar in this area in terms of making sure that we're on a level playing field with the rest of the UK. And we have done that. I can say that. We, Deputy Minister, wrote a very similar letter to Ofcom's consultation, along the same lines as your own letter to Ofcom as well. 

Jack Sargeant and David Rowlands also talked about 5G and being 5G ready. This technology is yet to be rolled out, but it is important that we're 5G ready. It's not too far in the future, as well. And I think, obviously, 5G is needed for automation and artificial intelligence, areas that the Deputy Minister is very keen on, as well as committee members also. So, this is an important area. We don't want to be the last nation in the UK to be adopting this technology and being 5G ready. I would put out the challenge: why can't we be ahead of any other nation across the UK? Why can't we lead the way on this occasion, rather than lagging behind as we have done in other parts of mobile connectivity?

I think, finally, I would just like to thank all the stakeholders that gave evidence, either oral evidence or written evidence. Thank you to committee members. Thank you to the clerking team and the integrated team for their support also, and those who took part in the debate today. I'd also like to thank the Deputy Minister for thanking himself. [Laughter.] But I do commend our report today to the Assembly.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.