Item 5 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs on the bovine TB eradication programme, and I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. When I launched the refreshed TB eradication programme 18 months ago, I committed to updating on progress once the complete 2018 data set of TB statistics was available. In 2018, there were 746 new TB incidents in Wales, representing a 5 per cent decrease compared to 2017. However, 11,233 cattle were slaughtered as a result of TB, representing a 12 per cent increase on 2017 figures. This increase is largely due to the heightened sensitivity of testing and the removal of more inconclusive reactors.

We expect this investment in removing infected cattle earlier to reap rewards in the medium term, as we get ahead of the disease. Our refreshed programme regionalised Wales in terms of TB, fundamentally changing the way in which Government and industry view and tackle the disease. Regionalisation created low, intermediate and high TB incidence areas, where different approaches to disease eradication could be implemented, based on the different risks in each area. Our aim is to protect the low TB area from infection and drive down disease in the intermediate and high TB areas.

I am pleased to report we are continuing to protect the low TB area of north-west Wales, seeing a relatively low number of new TB breakdowns. Introducing post-movement testing as part of the refreshed approach is helping to safeguard the area. However, more work needs to be done. There were 34 new TB breakdowns in the low TB area in 2018, an increase from 28 new TB breakdowns in 2017. I call upon low TB area farmers to do all they can to keep bovine TB out.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

It is disappointing that some in the low TB area are not following the post-movement testing requirements. This minority risk spoiling it for everyone and must accept their responsibilities in protecting their herd and the wider area. We know from movement and testing data which animals need to be tested and by when, and we are tightening our enforcement protocols to take action where necessary.

In 2018-19, taking account of salvage receipts, the Welsh Government has paid over £14 million in TB compensation to farmers. This is unsustainable to the public purse and, coupled with the loss of EU funding post Brexit, emphasises the need for a fair compensation regime for the farmer and taxpayer. I therefore feel it is an appropriate time to review the current arrangements. Any new regime will drive good farming practice whilst discouraging bad practice.

On a more positive note, there are some excellent examples of co-operative working taking place, and this model will enable us to succeed. We have engaged with a group of farmers and vets on the Gower, who plan to deliver badger vaccination alongside cattle control measures in order to eradicate TB from the area.

We are working collaboratively in the intermediate TB area north in response to a developing disease situation. A strengthened contiguous testing regime is now in place here and, to support TB-free herds, veterinary 'keep it out' visits are available through the Cymorth TB programme. I would encourage all farmers in this area to take advantage of a free visit by their own vet to discuss what they can do to protect their herd from TB.

It is worth pointing out that one in three confirmed TB breakdowns in high TB areas and eight in 10 in the low TB area are primarily attributable to cattle movements. These statistics speak for themselves: some TB breakdowns can be prevented if farmers source stock more carefully. With careful consideration of the TB test history of prospective purchases, a farmer can minimise the risk of bringing disease into their herd.

We are continuously strengthening our approach to TB eradication, aiming to balance control measures with farm business sustainability—for example, expanding our portfolio of available TB tests, working with vets to improve the TB diagnostics available to us.

A key commitment in the refreshed programme introduced a formal approach to tackling persistent TB herd breakdowns. Bespoke action plans, containing enhanced measures to eradicate the disease, are put in place in herds that have been under TB restrictions for 18 months or more. By the end of December, 59 action plans had been implemented in persistent TB breakdowns and 21 herds with an action plan in place had restrictions lifted.

Another facet of the action plan process is the testing and removal of test-positive badgers. This takes place in selected herds where evidence suggests badgers are contributing to the persistence of disease. A report on last year's field work is currently being finalised and will be available shortly. Preparatory work on the third year of operations is well under way. Understanding the TB picture in wildlife is important and I would remind everyone to report badgers found dead to inform the all-Wales badger found dead survey.

I have seen the devastation a TB breakdown can bring to a farming family and business. The slaughter of TB reactors on farm, although sometimes unavoidable, can be particularly distressing to witness. I have listened to concerns raised by the industry about this matter, and officials are currently looking at ways we can reduce the instances when TB reactors need to be shot on farm. If there are ways we can make this situation any easier for those affected, I am keen to explore them. I will provide a further update on progress in the coming months.

As part of our long-term strategy, we are supporting the creation of the bovine TB centre of excellence in Aberystwyth, led by esteemed Professor Glyn Hewinson. Close linkages between the centre and our programme are being developed.

The last 18 months have been a period of progressive change for the TB eradication programme, and utilising and learning from new technology will be important going forward. However, I cannot over-emphasise the value of collaboration when it comes to TB eradication, and each of us has a role to play. By working together in partnership, with a single purpose, we will stamp out this disease. Diolch.

Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon. There's one certainty in life in this place since I joined in 2007: that there will be various TB statements as we progress through the whole term. Indeed, the Presiding Officer led the charge for four years in her time as Cabinet Secretary in, I think, the third Assembly. I don't make those comments lightly, because this is a devastating condition in the livestock industry and to the rural economy as well. It does play, as you've highlighted in your statement this afternoon, a big economic factor in the livestock industry, but it has a huge emotional and psychological impact on farming families and, indeed, the livestock sector that are affected by this terrible disease.

One thing, regrettably, that has come over, time and time again in the 12 years that I've been an Assembly Member, is that we do not seem to have got a handle on this. The numbers that you're reporting today show a 12 per cent increase in the number of cattle killed, regrettably, due to bovine TB. A 12 per cent increase—that is a significant number by any stretch of the imagination after many goes at trying to get on top of this terrible condition. I do think that's far more reflective than maybe the number of holdings that you identified, which you seemed to take some comfort from—that there are a fewer number of holdings reporting bovine TB—but the fact of the matter is the livestock industry is contracting and there is less livestock being kept. The raw data shows that there's an increased number of cattle as a whole being taken and that clearly shows that, regrettably, the policy does not seem to be working here in Wales.

It does need a twin-tracked approach, which you've heard from these benches time and time again, to make sure that we have a healthy wildlife reservoir and, indeed, a healthy farmed livestock industry. I'd be grateful if you could highlight how many badgers have been removed that, once they've been proved infected with TB, as you touched on that in your statement—. So, we've got the cattle numbers, can you tell us how many badgers, once identified as having that infection, have been removed over the last 12 months, the reporting period you have given us?

Also, in many of the statements that have come before the Plenary, we seem to return to the compensation aspect that obviously does need to deliver value for money for the taxpayer but also a fair compensation to the livestock producer, who very often can see a whole lifetime, if not several generations, be taken away from that farm because of a bovine TB breakdown. I'd be grateful to understand what your thoughts are on this particular aspect of your statement. The finance Minister, when she was Minister, did try and bring forward proposals to change the compensation proposals and there were modest changes then. The previous First Minister, when he was environment Minister, tried to bring forward a cap on payments, some 10 or, I think, 12 years ago. My late and much missed colleague Brynle Williams was the agricultural spokesman at the time and I believe it was his vote that made that stop in its tracks. So, I do regret that you're trying to link this to Brexit. We do go back over 10, 12, 15 years and various Ministers have—[Interruption.] I hear from a sedentary position that the Minister didn't say that. The statement does say that, because of the loss of European money due to Brexit—it does actually say that, it does. I do regret trying to link this to the Brexit argument. There have been successive attacks on the compensation model by several Ministers over a longer period. If it is your intention to bring forward a consultation, can you please tell us what that consultation will be about, when it will be coming and what you have in mind to put into that consultation?

Also, I'd be grateful to understand what measures you would consider the agricultural industry needing to do over and above what's being done at the moment. I come—actually, I should have declared this at the start of the proceedings, Presiding Officer, if you'll allow me: I do declare an interest, as a livestock producer who does have cattle on his farm. What measures do you have in mind over and above the biosecurity measures that are in place at the moment—because as an industry, pre-movement and post-movement testing has come in, yearly testing has come in, where many people might have been in four-yearly parishes now are in yearly tests? And yet the agriculture industry has taken these measures on board and yet they're not seeing a more holistic approach of dealing with the wildlife reservoir that is out there and is part of the issue that is part of the contamination problem that is affecting the livestock sector. So, can you enlighten us on the points that I've put to you, Minister? I, along with most Members, if not all Members, want to see progress in this area, but unless we move forward on all fronts, then we really will be talking about this in another 12 years' time and we won't be in that position of being within touching distance of the Minister's own ambition of seeing the eradication of this terrible disease in the livestock sector.

Thank you, Andrew R.T. Davies, for the series of questions. I set out in my statement that whilst there had been a 5 per cent decrease in the 12 months that we're talking about in this statement in herd incidents, there was an increase in the number of cattle, and I stated why that was, with the heightened sensitivity, and also, I think, improved testing. But I do not underestimate the emotional or psychological impact this has on farming families and businesses and I absolutely accept that. And just, sort of, going over to your question around compensation—of course, 10 per cent of funding for the TB eradication programme comes from Europe, and I don't know whether that funding will be there. So, I certainly wasn't linking it in the way I think you're suggesting. However, it is a fact of life. All our budgets have reduced, and I do get approximately 10 per cent of my—well, I say the TB eradication programme, it's actually for all diseases. So, for instance, if we had an outbreak of African swine fever, as has been seen in Europe this year—those countries will have got the funding in relation to those diseases from the same pot of money. So, I have to look at how I'm going to fund that. I was asked questions, I think by Llyr Huws Gruffydd, in committee about where I would find that funding. Well, I would have to find that funding from within my budget. So, I'm not directly linking, I'm just stating facts that we do need to look at the way compensation is funded.

You asked me whether I'd be going out to consultation. What I've done—so, going back to this statement today, this comes following the refreshed TB eradication programme that I launched back in October 2017 when I committed to reporting on an annual basis and it was thought the most appropriate way to do that was to report on a calendar year of statistics. So, what I'm reporting on today is January to December of 2018. So, what I have said to officials is that I would like to review the compensation aspect of this. I think there are other parts of the programme that we need to watch very carefully. Certainly, it's monitored very carefully, and there is a flexibility within the programme that I've been very pleased to see. So, for instance—and, again, I referred to it in my statement—while we've seen a spike in disease in the intermediate area, we've been able to be flexible about how we look at what we're doing in that area, bringing forward additional measures.

You asked about what more we want farmers to do. Biosecurity is clearly very important, and I know you absolutely share that view, and the fact that where we have had incidents of TB breakdown and we can pinpoint it, for instance, to where farmers have purchased cattle—I've been looking at whether we need to bring in a mandatory informed purchasing system, for instance. I saw out in New Zealand they had that there and that's something that I'm considering. I prefer to do it on a voluntary basis. So, we funded livestock markets to be able to revive that information, but I haven't seen the increased information that I would have wanted to. So, I am looking at whether we need to bring forward a mandatory scheme. So, I think there are a suite of things that we can do, but I think it's really important that we work in collaboration and partnership and I want to continue to do that.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement, although, again, I think there is a groundhog day feel to all of this, really. We've had similar statements at regular intervals over the years and, regrettably, with the same trend in terms of managing to get on top of this disease. It feels a little bit as if you're deflecting some of the Government's failings onto farmers as well, because you say that farmers should source stock more carefully—well, do you not think that they're responsible enough in that respect? You say that you call on low-TB-area farms to do all they can to keep bovine TB out. Surely you're not suggesting that they're not already doing as much as they could, because I don't know of any farmer who'd like to find themselves in this position, and, in fact, if you expect farmers to do everything they possibly can, then I think it's only fair that farmers expect the Welsh Government to do everything it possibly can as well to tackle this horrible disease, and that, of course, means using every tool that's available to you. Since the introduction of the individual action plans—or the bespoke action plans—we've seen, I think, licences issued on just three farms across the whole of Wales with just five badgers being removed. Now, that's in contrast, of course, to over 11,000 cattle that have been slaughtered. We've already been reminded that that represents a 12 per cent increase in the number of cattle being slaughtered. In some individual regions it's even higher, actually, and that, I think, tells us a lot about what we need to know in relation to how successful the Government strategy is thus far.

Conversely, we've seen in England and elsewhere different approaches resulting in different effects on the situation of TB there. DEFRA's summary in December confirmed that they've halved the number of new breakdowns in England. So, I'm just interested, really, and my first question would be: to what extent are you learning the lessons that are being learned elsewhere? Are you taking not just those lessons from England but from the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere as well, and how are their experiences impacting or influencing on your approach here in Wales? Because a 12 per cent increase, of course, in the number of cattle slaughtered is unacceptable and that cannot mean business as usual, and I'm afraid that the statement you've issued today has a business-as-usual feel to it.

You say that a report on last year's field work is being finalised in your statement and will be available shortly. I don't want to criticise you for bringing this statement forward, but it would have been more useful, I think, for us to have had that information as part of this statement so that we could have interrogated that data with you here in the Chamber. I don't know whether you'd bring a further oral statement as opposed to a written statement because I'm sure we'd all be interested to see the latest up-to-date evidence in that respect.

You say in the statement it's time to review the current compensation regime, and, yes, £14 million is a lot of money to pay in compensation, but, of course, 11,000 cattle slaughtered is a lot of cattle slaughtered and it represents a huge loss to the farming industry. So, when you describe the current situation as unsustainable, it'd be interesting to hear from you exactly what you mean by that, because are you saying that compensation levels should be lowered? Because it sounds a bit like that, if you ask me, and I'd appreciate clarity. And, of course, the best way of reducing compensation payments is to actually get a grip of the disease and to lower the number of cattle slaughtered. It isn't that long ago, of course, that the compensation regime was reviewed and changed, and now it seems that you want to change it again. It would be useful as well to hear a bit about the process you intend to undertake as part of that: what kind of timescales are we looking at, and is there going to be a reference group, a working group, or how are you going to approach that piece of work?

I think you're perfectly right in referring to Brexit and the implications it'll have because there will be implications—the financial ones that you explicitly refer to, of course, because we know that EU funding has contributed to the Government's efforts in relation to tackling this disease, but I'm also particularly concerned about effects on the veterinary workforce and the availability of vets, because we know that around 44 per cent of all new vets in Wales in the decade up to 2017 came from overseas, and if we lose those people, then, obviously, we're going to be even more susceptible to not only TB but other forms of disease as well.

Finally, Minister, just on vaccinations: clearly, you're intent on that approach, and I suppose vaccination does have a role to play. It only prevents, of course, it doesn't cure bovine TB, so it's not an answer in itself, but it can contribute to a wider strategy. But we know, to our own detriment, that there are issues around supply, so do you not acknowledge that any vaccine strategy is always going to be susceptible to supply interruptions and that that isn't always a very dependable basis upon which to build your strategy for tackling bovine TB?

Diolch, Llyr, for those questions. I did promise I would bring forward a statement following the refreshed programme within this timescale, so the reason for that statement today is due to that promise. But I don't disagree with you, that it it would have been helpful to have had that field work report, and certainly, when I get the report, I'd be very happy to make that information publicly available; whether it be via an oral statement or a written statement obviously will be dependent on timescales.

Looking at different approaches is very important. In fact, the chief veterinary officer is, after this statement today, going to Dublin to talk with colleagues there and, clearly, I'm aware of the report that came out in England, the bovine TB strategy review. And, if you look at a great deal of the work that is in that review, we have it embedded in our TB eradication programme, so I was really pleased to see that key aspects of our programme are already being pursued here and are reflected within the report. I understand that DEFRA are responding to that report in the autumn and I certainly will be very interested to see what they say.

In relation to compensation, you're right, we did lower compensation when we launched the eradication programme. The answer I gave to Andrew R.T. Davies—I was trying to explain that I wasn't linking completely with Brexit, but, you're right, we are going to lose about 10 per cent of our funding, possibly, although, of course, we were told that we would not lose a penny if we left the European Union. I had that conversation yesterday with my UK counterparts when we met as part of our regular quadrilaterals; we met here in Cardiff yesterday. So, it's about looking ahead to see whether I'm going to have to find that funding from my own budget or whether we, as promised, will receive every penny and then that issue won't be there.

I did reduce the cap, you may remember, to £5,000 when we refreshed the TB eradication programme and we knew that the change probably would not affect a majority of farmers, and I have to say now I understand that it has saved us about £49,500 in relation to that cap being reduced. So, it's not a huge amount, but, again, I think it's about driving good practice and not rewarding bad practice also.

You asked about veterinary surgeons and you're absolutely right. If you look at the Government ones within the Animal and Plant Health Agency, I think 100 per cent of our vets are EU nationals, so it's a huge matter of concern and something that I've taken up, at every opportunity I've had, with Michael Gove. And, clearly, they share our concerns, because they're in exactly the same position as we are—maybe not 100 per cent, but certainly the majority of their vets are EU nationals.

In relation to vaccination, you'll be aware of the five-year programme that we had and we achieved four years of it, but then we had—the global supply of the vaccination was obviously not available. It's now becoming available again and we are looking to do that. In fact, we've had a window open where people could apply for it, to do it on a private basis. I think the window actually closes today, but certainly we've had that offer there, and, again, you will have heard me mention in my statement that we have been working with a group on the Gower who are—they're doing it independently, but we are supporting them too.

I acknowledge the Minister's best intentions and her openmindedness and her willingness to consider doing things that are politically difficult for her in her party and her general willingness to engage with farmers and the farming community generally on this hugely difficult issue. But, despite all that and 18 months after the launch of the refreshed eradication programme, it's clear that the Government is not unambiguously winning the war against TB. And I agree with Llyr Gruffydd, in what he said earlier on, that, in the statement, the Minister does seem to be openly blaming farmers to an extent, when, actually, it's the Welsh Government that ultimately has the answer to this problem, because it's the Government's policy that is going to enable the measures to be taken that do hold out a prospect of real success. And there's no doubt on the figures that we're not really making any significant progress at all. The Minister attributes the 12 per cent increase in cattle slaughter to heightened sensitivity of testing and surveillance for TB, but the Minister said in her statement:

'We expect this investment in removing infected cattle earlier to reap rewards in the medium term'.

Well, as I've said many times, farmers don't really have the time; TB is having a drastic effect on the rural economy and devastating the livelihoods of cattle keepers, and many of them family farms. I acknowledge that she does fully appreciate the deep psychological impact as well as the economic impact that having an infected herd can bring. 

In 2017, the Government did seem to be taking steps in the right direction and I applauded at the time, and have done since, her willingness to combat the disease in the wildlife population by a means of cage trapping, testing and humanely killing infected badgers. But, as Llyr Gruffydd again pointed out, the figures here are absolutely dismal. Three licences on three farms in the whole of Wales is not even a pinprick. To put this into context, a cow is slaughtered in Wales as a result of TB every 46 minutes, whereas a badger is culled every 3.6 months. So, if this is an indication of the Government's priorities, then they're wholly misconceived, in my view. NFU Cymru have said that up to one in five badgers in Wales are infected with TB, so we must, if we're to get to grips with this problem, do something about this reservoir in the wild.

Now, the Minister said in her statement that she's working with farmers and stakeholders and vets in Gower on a badger vaccine. How is success in this area going to be measured? Previous eradication programmes have proved that the so-called science-led approach actually has reaped nothing but failure. In contrast, while vets are chasing badgers across the Gower with vaccinations, in England, there's been considerable success by a totally different kind of policy. Badger culling in high-risk areas of England produced the following results: in December 2018, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs revealed reduced disease in cattle over the four-year cull period, with the number of confirmed cattle breakdowns down by around 50 per cent. In the Gloucester area, the incidence rate has dropped from 25 per cent to 12 per cent in the 12 months following the fourth year of badger culling. In Somerset, new herd incidents have dropped from 10.4 per cent to 5.6 per cent. That is real progress.

Now, I do realise that this is a difficult and emotive issue, but as I remember Simon Thomas, when he was the Plaid Cymru agriculture spokesman, saying here many times, the choice is a simple one, you either cull badgers or you cull cattle, and, of the two, I know which is preferable and most effective in the longer term. What we require is a multifaceted approach, and I accept that a lot of what the Minister says is sound common sense on biosecurity and the controls on cattle movements, individual action plans for farms, especially in high-risk areas, and easily accessible information for farmers on how to prevent TB transmission. But tackling the spread of TB in the wildlife population by way of English-style culls in Wales's worst affected areas seems to me to be an absolutely indispensable way forward if she is to make a success of the policy that I know she is keen to make a success of.

Thank you, Neil Hamilton, for those comments and questions. I don't see a 5 per cent decrease in the number of new incidents as a failure; I see that as a success. I absolutely agree about the number of cattle that have been slaughtered. I gave the reasons why I believe that is the case, but I do, of course, want to see a decrease in that, and I've talked about the flexibility of this programme and, in another 12 months' time, when we look at it, I hope to see, certainly, success in that area too.

Neil Hamilton talks about the bespoke action plans, and we've had 59 action plans to date. Obviously, the 18-month period that we're looking at where they've had these long-term breakdowns, which is when we've gone in and done the bespoke action plans—I mentioned that 21 are now clear of TB. You mentioned there are only three licences. Well, that's because of a variety of reasons, where the vets have decided that there is no wildlife intervention, or maybe the farmer has decided he doesn't want that aspect looked at. So, I don't think you can criticise that there were only three licences. These bespoke action plans look at a variety of things, including biosecurity. I think the badger intervention work must be regarded as a relatively small, but, of course, a complex part of a much bigger programme. No action plan has identified a herd where badgers are the only driver for the disease. I think that's really important to point out, and I have constantly ruled out an English-style badger cull. The science that I've seen, the discussions I've had with my officials, with the chief veterinary officer, have not persuaded me that that would be right for Wales.

We spoke before about the spike in the intermediate area, and Andrew R.T. Davies was asking what more farmers could do, and I mentioned the 'keep it out' visits with vets, and only two have been taken up in that area. So, that's something that perhaps farmers can engage with APHA on more. But I'm certainly not blaming farmers; I've said from the outset I want to work together, and I think collaboratively and working in partnership is the way forward if we want to eradicate this disease.

I thank you for your statement today. I'm not going to reiterate everything, but I'm clearly going to say that, again, I can't support—and I'm glad you don't—a full-scale badger cull. If we look at the cost of that, all the science makes it perfectly clear that, unless you so significantly or almost wipe out the badger population, it isn't going to have the effect that everybody thinks it will have. That's already happening in some parts of England, where badgers are on the verge of extinction. And, to my mind, I have never seen anything like this. This is a protected species that we are wiping out here, and we need to be clear about that. It has cost £50 million already to the taxpayer, and I never, ever hear anyone talk about that particular cost. So, I'm glad, Minister, that you look at all the different aspects, and you have identified a link between cattle movements in some cases. I was going to ask, but you seem to have already answered it, whether we must make that enforced, whether it must be mandatory. It cannot be the case that people are moving cattle without going through a process that makes it—. No farmer wants TB—I recognise that—and I think anything that we can put in place to help those farmers not have that has to be a positive, and maybe this is something that we need to do.

I think I've also asked this question before; I'm going to ask it again. It is the case that some farms have almost been in the status of being infected by TB? Should we look at the real possibility that that will always be the case and why it is the case? Are there factors like the land being so badly infected by TB, maybe by the slurry that exists on those farms? And should we look at—and I think it's probably time that we did, in some cases—coming to the final conclusion that, for some farms, putting cattle on them is actually inviting those cattle to have TB because the land is so badly infected? Now, it might be the case—and I can hear some sharp intakes of breath—that this is a difficult conclusion for some, but it might be a necessary conclusion, and all that we're going to do on those farms is end up causing distress to the farmer, to the animals, and, of course, a cost to the public purse. So, I think we really seriously need to look at that as well.

I do recognise that there's misery and that there's heartbreak behind this, and I'm really pleased to hear that we have a bTB centre of excellence that we're now working with. There was also a conference in Derby last week, and it was in the University of Derby, and it was the first ever national conference on badger vaccination. There were around 80 groups and organisations already vaccinating badgers or wanting to start up inoculation programmes, and they attended. So, again, I'd like to know if your department will review the findings of that and the outcomes of that conference and see whether we can take any learning from it and help reduce this disease.

Thank you, Joyce Watson, for your questions. Just picking up on that last point—and, certainly, officials constantly monitor the different programmes and systems used in relation to trying to eradicate bovine TB—I mentioned before that the chief veterinary officer is going to Dublin today, to—. I forget which university it is. Professor Hewinson, who I mentioned, working at our centre of excellence—he will also be there with her, because people want to learn from him. He's world renowned, and for me, he's a great source of advice when I need it. So, I think it is about learning from other countries, but it's also good to see that people are inviting our experts also to learn from them. 

The question you raise—which is a difficult one—around specific farms, has been raised with me several times by individual farmers. But certainly, again, officials have not given me that advice. But you can clearly see where we have these long-term breakdowns, and that was one of the reasons I was so keen—. You may remember from when I made the statement about the refreshed programme that some of these breakdowns were for years and years and years. And as you say, it's complete misery, distress and heartbreak. So, whilst I haven't received advice for that, individual farmers themselves have raised that question with me, and I think it is probably something that will be discussed as we go forward.

In relation to informed purchasing, I mentioned in an earlier answer that it's something that we are considering making mandatory. I wanted to do it voluntary, certainly, and I made that funding available to livestock markets. I do think farmers do need to take greater responsibility in relation to purchasing, but they need that information, and that's why I wanted to work with livestock markets, grant funding them, so that they could upgrade their facilities to enable them to be able to very prominently display TB information of the cattle being sold. But, unfortunately, certainly when I've looked at what's been going on over the last year, there seems to be very little information coming forward from sellers to enable farmers to make those decisions.

So, certainly, I know DEFRA are also looking at the possibility of a mandatory informed-purchasing system, so we are working in collaboration with them. It is very complex. It would require, of course, consultation. It would require a change to legislation. It's not something that you can do very quickly. Pre and post-movement testing reduces, but, of course, does not eliminate the risk, because cattle can, obviously, become infected after being tested or because they may be at the earlier stages of infection and it's too early to be picked up. So, I think this is something that I need to look at, because it's absolutely vital that farmers get that information so they can give consideration to where their cattle are sourced from. 

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister.