The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans.

That brings us to the Welsh Conservative debate on e-sports. I call on David Melding to move the motion.

Motion NDM7044 Darren Millar

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises the growing impact that the esports industry is having on local economies around the world, such as the 2017 tournaments in Valencia and Cologne which attracted between 15,000 – 40,000 attendees.

2. Notes that the UK Government's Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport are undertaking an inquiry to explore the potential for esports in the UK, among other technology trends.

3. Welcomes the recommendations of the UK Government commissioned Bazalgette Review into the Creative Industries, which outlines recommendations for how the esports sector can underpin the UK’s future economic growth, by:

a) raising the status of esports with government sponsored competitions, national teams, and media coverage; and

b) increasing the UK Government’s investment by an extra £23.7 million over five years to extend the highly successful and innovative UK Games Fund and Transfuzer development programmes.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) examine the potential economic benefits of the esports industry in Wales;

b) consult with suitable stakeholders to organise and host an international esports competition in Wales;

c) report on progress to the Assembly no later than 1 October 2019.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to open this Welsh Conservative debate on a topic that—I think it's fair to say—is making its debut in the National Assembly. It's a topic that's very fresh and exciting in my opinion, and which has the potential for substantial growth in Wales if it's given the recognition and the attention that its success to date warrants.

Around the world, countries are embracing the phenomenon of e-sports and competitive gaming, despite a lingering stigma, and it is in these countries that we see most progress, capitalising on the sector's huge economic benefits, whilst also giving young people further opportunities to engage in competitive team-based activities. Simultaneously, the benefits of this industry are that it also encourages people to embrace many of the core digital and technological skills that are becoming so important in our modern, digital world.

Five years ago, you couldn't have imagined video-game competitions being broadcast on the same channel as traditional sports, but times are changing. Thanks to the massive popularity of e-sports, driven in large part by the internet-streaming generation, the entertainment landscape has transformed drastically over the past couple of years. 

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Now, e-sports have been around for as long as the video-game industry itself, and collectively refer to competitive video-game play by professional and amateur gamers. Back in the early 1990s, it existed simply through a group of friends sitting around a Sega Mega Drive or Nintendo 64 console. But in recent years, growth in the gaming audience and player engagement has elevated e-sports into mainstream culture as a legitimate professional sport with a massive global following. We've all heard of the League of Legends, Call of Duty, FIFA and Halo 5. In 2018, Goldman Sachs estimated that the global monthly audience for e-sports is 167 million people, and that by 2022, it's estimated the audience will reach 276 million, or to put it in perspective, similar in size to the US NFL today. Other estimates claim that e-sports has $900 million of annual revenue—that's the revenue of the sport—and 380 million viewers globally. So, we can see the scale of the industry by whatever measure we choose to take, and there is some dispute just about its current size because it is growing so quickly.

The potential, Deputy Presiding Officer, is clearly vast, yet Wales is yet to play its full role or the role it is capable of performing, despite some commendable activity, which I'm sure the Minister will refer to later. But this is an industry that is yet to really take off, and if we get in there now and really capture these trends, then we can be a real leader.

Other UK cities are capitalising on the industry's potential with both Birmingham and London, for instance, hosting major competitive gaming tournaments this year that are expected to draw crowds of 21,000 and 30,000 respectively. It's astonishing the level of spectator interest in these competitions. Imagine the impact that this could have on local economies and business in Wales if we were drawing on these spectators and seeing them come from all around the world, potentially. I just think, to put this in historical terms, in the late nineteenth century, I'm sure there were many stick-in-the-muds who said, 'Oh, these new recently regularised sports of rugby, cricket and football, it's just a fad and we shouldn't be building stadia for 30,000, 40,000 people because we won't know what to do with these places in 10 years—we'll be growing potatoes there.' But happily, we did not take that attitude and we captured the enthusiasm that the late Victorians and Edwardians had for spectator sports. It's been a massive part of our culture and our economy as a result.

Indeed, the world of e-sports and traditional physical sports is now converging. There are many examples of sports teams getting involved in the e-sports, including Paris Saint-Germain, Manchester City, West Ham United, AS Roma and Formula 1 brands like McLaren, to name just a few. And, indeed, there are initiatives like the ePremier League that will launch later this year—a FIFA e-sports tournament featuring Premier League clubs playing virtually against one another—and the Formula 1 Esports Series, the champion of which, at the moment, is the British e-sports professional Brendon Leigh.

The International Olympic Committee is also looking into e-sports, and even some of our universities across the UK have now begun to offer e-sport courses, such is their technological innovation and economic potential. If we look around abroad for international comparisons, we can see that other countries are some way ahead of us in developing this sector. E-sports are now part of mainstream culture in South Korea, with the country leading globally in games development, e-sports and the marketing of e-sports. Forty thousand people recently attended an e-sports world championship that was played inside a football stadium used in Korea during the 2002 World Cup semi-final, whilst a gaming culture has been built through the establishment of gaming cafes. In response to the growing popularity, the Korean Government became actively involved in promoting e-sports, creating the Korea e-Sports Association to drive growth in games development and participation in online gaming. And only last week, the Danish Government released an official e-sport strategy to foster domestic and international growth of the sector with a focus on healthy environments and communities.

The UK Government has recognised the opportunities that the e-sports industry presents for our economy. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is currently undertaking an inquiry to explore the potential of this sector in the UK among other technological trends, so we too need to get ahead. Dirprwy Lywydd, our motion today requests that the Welsh Government examines the potential economic benefits of the e-sports industry to Wales, consult with suitable stakeholders to organise and host an international e-sports competition in Wales and report on its progress to the Assembly no later than 1 October. If we're going to put Wales at the forefront of this developing trend, we need to do it now.

We are seeing new studies that look into the influence that performance in e-sports has, such as increased cognitive functions correlated with gaming and the positive effects on mental health. Now, it has to be said that there are some concerns out there about how gambling gets associated with e-sports, but it's not core to the activity; the activity is one of great innovation and invention on the people that play these games, particularly the professionals, and then the spectators that get involved in following them.

Can I say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I am disappointed with the Government's amendment? It deletes point 4, which I just quoted, in terms of the action we require, and I think it does weaken the motion slightly. And then it replaces item 4 with a fuzzy, slightly self-congratulatory amendment of its own. However, such is the importance, I think, of us sending a unanimous message today that if I'm able to persuade the Assembly to support our motion without amendment, and assuming that the Government's amendment, then, does carry, because it still leaves the motion largely intact—and, as I said, there's the need to send this unified message—I would still ask Members to support the motion if it's amended. I look forward to contributions to what I hope you will agree is an important discussion this afternoon.

Thank you. I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to move, formally, amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

Delete point 4 and replace with:

Notes the significant investments made by the Welsh Government and its partners in recent years that has helped establish a thriving Creative Industries sector in Wales.

Notes the Welsh Government’s intention to take a cross government approach to grow the esports industry in Wales, acknowledging that the Creative Industries Sector is a driving force for its continued success.

Calls on the UK Government to ensure that additional funding for creative industries is made available to Wales and other devolved administrations to exploit new opportunities in the creative economy.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally. Thank you.

Diolch. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Almost most of us here today will be aware that e-sports do generate a similar level of interest and excitement as does the World Cup. To date, the Welsh Government, however, has not taken full advantage of the immense economic benefits that are to be gained from promoting this industry by facilitating collaboration with stakeholders.

E-sports and the gaming industry are a source of entertainment that is particularly popular, of course, among the male population. Increasingly, this industry has assumed a central space on the internet and in the media. Now, given the immense technological advancement of our society, and our enhanced inter-connectedness with our regions, people and ideas, the popularity and availability of online games has multiplied.

According to NewZoo, the UK e-sports audience in 2016 was 6.5 million, and this is expected to increase with improved access to streaming platforms such as Sky Sports, YouTube and Twitch—I've never even heard of that last one. The Welsh Government must recognise that this industry has serious potential to accelerate our economic growth, generate jobs for future generations and equip those that are involved and interested in this industry with the business, digital and creative skills that will put Wales on the map for gaming and e-sport success, like the current leader in the field, South Korea.

According to the conclusions of the Bazalgette review, 300,000 jobs were created between 2011 and 2015, and by 2030, 1 million new jobs are predicted to be created within this industry. In 2016 alone, the British Esports Association estimated that e-sports contributed £18.4 million to the UK economy in 2016. Given that over $5.6 billion was spent by gamers in the leading country, South Korea, the Welsh Government has to acknowledge the full potential of this rapidly growing and exciting market by beginning to make preparations for collaboration with creative organisations, gaming businesses and, indeed, our own universities. 

Indeed, since it is our young generation who is fuelling this technological boom and e-sports success, the Welsh Government must acknowledge the benefits to be gained by extending collaboration with our Welsh universities, to develop partnerships with global technological companies, securing further investment and attracting the most competent graduates into Wales. English universities such as York and Staffordshire have already developed e-sports courses and modules that will equip young adolescents with an interest in pursuing a career in this field with the skills and knowledge that they will need going forward.

Furthermore, it is worth acknowledging that the University of South Wales and south-Wales based Tiny Rebel Games have collaborated with digital and creative companies such as Aardman Animations, and they have secured a multimillion-pound investment from the UK Government for the research and creation of a new virtual reality game. This type of investment needs to continue and extend to the promotion of e-sport events that can attract thousands of spectators to the very development of internet infrastructure and connectivity. Recently, in South Korea, 40,000 people attended the League of Legends world championships, and this success can be linked back to the Korean Government's investment into telecommunications and the internet. I therefore urge the Government to reflect on the points that I've made and my colleague David Melding has, and to initiate collaboration with technological and creative partners to give Wales and the Welsh people the best chance to capitalise on this global development. Thank you.

Can I thank the Member David Melding for bringing forward this very interesting debate today? I wanted to make a brief contribution and say that I believe the Member was absolutely right, in opening this debate, when he said the availability of the trends and talents are a clear part of the reason behind why we've seen such a rise in e-sports and why it will continue to grow in the future. In fact, PricewaterhouseCoopers suggests that by 2021, the UK market could be worth £5.2 billion.

So, Deputy Llywydd, how do we ensure that in Wales we do have a piece of that market share? It might well begin with our very own Assembly e-competition, because I have heard that, behind the scenes, my colleague from across the benches Darren Millar has been practising hard to beat me on FIFA, so I wonder, Deputy Llywydd, if the Member wants a game after Plenary one day. [Laughter.] On a more serious note—the issue of funding—we know that the Government's digital innovation fund has helped and supported technical innovation as well as driving growth in the gaming industry.

North-east Wales, in particular, is well placed to be part of this growth with the availability of regional funding, as well as links with major cities across the border. Now, that's important, because we know that the UK is good at attracting and retaining and training skilled workers within the digital sector, with London, Cambridge and Birmingham as we've mentioned earlier, acting as major magnets. But, Deputy Llywydd, that could mean areas in north Wales—right across the north Wales coast—linking with the English cities just across the border, could benefit from this market as well.

Wales has already hosted a range of major sporting events, such as the great Champions League final here in Cardiff, so there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be making moves to host the newly formed ePremier League, as we heard before, or even a European version. Now, I must say my grandad and close friends would be very happy, but the only thing I will say is that it pains me that Liverpool won the ePremier League, albeit they did play very well yesterday.

In closing, Deputy Llywydd, I do think Wales is in a great place to lead the way on the e-sports industry and be up there with the very best, but what we certainly know is that we need to build on the work that we've seen so far, but also consider future Government decisions, such as investment funds, tax implications and access to workers within the gaming industry in a post-Brexit Wales. Diolch.

I'm pleased to contribute to today's debate on e-sports and to agree with many of the comments made by my colleague David Melding in his eloquent opening of this debate. I must be honest, however, that my knowledge of this area is rather limited, but from what I've read over the past few days in bringing myself up to speed on the whole area of e-sports, this is a rapidly growing debate and one that I feel that, within Wales, we probably haven't been engaging with enough and that we should do more to engage with in future, because it is a growing and significant area of the creative industries, both in Wales and in the UK.

Now, David Melding mentioned the Government amendment. I think the Government amendment does deserve commendation for its own creativity—its deftness, I should say, as it neatly sidesteps the whole issue of e-sports and focuses the debate more on the subject of the creative industries. As David Melding said, that aside, we will not be supporting the Government amendment at the outset, but if that amendment does pass, we will then be supporting the amended motion, because the points it makes about the creative industries in Wales and their support and encouragement are very well-made points that deserve to be supported by all of us in this Chamber. 

But if I can turn to the substantive issue, the Bazalgette review made some important recommendations in this area, recognising the growing potential of e-sports for the economy whilst looking at ways in which we can guard against some of the more negative aspects that come out of this debate, such as the dangers of encouraging gambling, of encouraging participation in some of the less physical aspects of life that people do fear and have feared in the past about e-sports, which hopefully this debate will help to neutralise, for there are areas of e-sports that are beneficial and should be encouraged.

One thing is clear: e-sports and games, like it or not, are playing an increasing yet underrated role within the UK economy and the Welsh economy. It's an area that Wales can get ahead of the game with, if you pardon the pun, and that's not currently the case, with the geographical spread of jobs in this area uneven. In fact, the statistics that I looked at said that 46.7 per cent of the creative industry jobs are currently concentrated in London and the south-east of England, with a small percentage in Scotland; only 2.8 per cent currently in Wales, and I know we would all hope to change that. I think this can be overcome, but we have to accept it's not going to be easy, and it does touch many other areas.

The report that I mentioned shows that there's a strong link between the quality and accessibility of broadband connectivity and productivity, and that's straightforward to understand. The creative industries, particularly gaming and e-sports, require fast and reliable internet infrastructure and cloud-based services. So, premises have to have access to superfast broadband, and we know, in Wales, that has been an issue in the past. So, we must deal with any delays in rolling out phase 2 of Superfast Cymru, particularly in rural areas. Of course, rural areas, in my area, are also part of the wider Cardiff city region, and that region includes investment in digital technology, as does the Swansea city deal, indeed. So, e-sports can be addressed at the city region level, not just at the local level or indeed at the Welsh level.

So, what are the benefits of all this? Well, as David Melding said in opening, there are cognitive benefits of encouraging this area. There's also an application for science, technology, engineering and mathematics. E-sports can help develop skills such as improving decision making, promoting teamwork, communication skills, and developing digital technology and skills. These benefit a number of areas within and outside the digital sector. We know the importance—. We frequently talk about the importance, in this Chamber, of STEM to the wider Welsh economy. As a member of the cross-party group on science here in this Senedd, chaired ably by David Rees, it's an area that I care about and I know many AMs care about as well.

The Welsh Government's own STEM action plan acknowledges the need to address the issue that not enough young people are entering science learning and science jobs, and this seems to be one area where, using the creative industries and the development of e-sports, we can encourage more younger people into this sector. Universities across the UK are already ahead of the game. The University of York has been looking at this area. Let's hope that Welsh universities will also do the same, but let's, all of us, support this motion today and get on with the job of encouraging e-sports and supporting the creative industries in Wales.

I am grateful to the Conservatives for bringing forward this debate. It is indeed a debut for this topic. It was interesting just watching the first speakers and wondering whether it was David Melding or Janet Finch-Saunders or Jack Sargeant that was most into e-gaming. I'm glad Jack Sargeant spilt the beans that it was him. I wouldn't have been ageist in any way by suggesting it wasn't the other two. I am an e-gamer myself—not to a professional standard, but I do have a 15-year-old son who I can still beat at FIFA from time to time, and count me in for the Assembly competition.

It is a sign of how we have moved on. When I was working at the BBC, we used to have Subbuteo competitions at lunch time—no need for fast broadband for that. But we are talking about the pastimes, the leisure activities, and, indeed, as we are establishing here, the sport of the future. And I say that as somebody who is passionate about pushing the agenda of physical activity for young children in particular. And I don't think we should confuse support for e-sports as an entity in itself with somehow that being a barrier to physical activity, because, obviously, we cannot think in that way. But I've learned a lot about the notion of e-sports and how it has grown and grown as an economic power over recent years—the idea that we have here a £1 billion industry, the idea that we have world championships in e-sports, the idea that university departments are putting on courses involving e-sports, the idea that US colleges have e-sports clubs that are growing in size from year to year. This is—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that I had the pleasure of visiting Coleg Llandrillo Menai recently, and the department there that supports students to develop games. And it was an eye opener for me, because not only are they developing the concept of the game, but developing the software, the graphics—you need to compose music, you need to storyboard. There’s a range of skills as part of the sector, and it’s much wider than I thought. And it was wonderful to see students from Wales having that opportunity to train, to develop ideas and develop initiative. Enterprise was part of the course, and that is something that would bring benefits to the economy and the individual.

You’re quite right, and I was going to come to that point, that this now has to be at the heart of what we offer to people in terms of opportunities—in education first of all, and then in business. What Wales needs to demonstrate, and why it’s so important that the Government does proceed to carry out specific research in this area, as the motion suggests, is that we are seeking a way to be innovative, that we are saying that Wales is eager to be in the vanguard. And, in order to do that, we must consider what’s happening out there, and consider carefully what we in Wales can achieve in setting an ambition.

I was in Scotland recently—doing a piece of work on electric vehicles, as it happens, and I will be publishing a report on that next week. I was in Dundee, where journalism was once the great industry—jute, jam and journalism were the three elements of the Dundee economy traditionally. But now the gaming industry is at the very heart of the excitement in Dundee at the moment, and Rockstar North, one of the major international companies in gaming, is a large local employer, and signals to us what can be achieved in making the right investment in the right place. As it happens, Dundee is also very innovative in terms of electric vehicles—that’s why I was there. And I think what we have there is a clear sign that, where you do have a community, or a town, or a nation such as Wales, deciding, 'This is something that we are determined to do', then it’s possible to aim towards that.

So, I do welcome the motion. Yes, it would be a shame if the Government’s amendment were to be passed. For example, it does note

'the significant investments made by the Welsh Government and its partners...that has helped establish a thriving Creative Industries sector in Wales.'

But we are talking here about a very specific sector within the creative industries in Wales, and we need specific investment for it. So, yes, it would be a shame if that amendment were to be passed, but as the Conservatives, as the movers of the main motion, do suggest that we should support an amended motion, if that is the case, then we will do likewise.

The skills associated with e-sports and gaming, such as decision making, problem solving, digital literacy and communication, have a wide implication within the economy. They are particularly relevant to those businesses based in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Promoting e-sports, and using online gaming to help, emphasises the STEM agenda, may help to narrow the current skills gaps in Wales and to grow the Welsh economy. This has been highlighted by the Office for National Statistics, which recently produced figures that show that Wales has the lowest proportion of internet users with the five basic digital skills. They found that 66 per cent of internet users have the five basic skills, compared to the UK's average of 79 per cent. In England, the UK Government has taken action to tackle shortages in local digital skills by establishing digital skills partnerships. These bodies were set up to bring together regional businesses, the public sector, organisations and charities to tackle local challenges such as unemployment and skills gaps. The point I wish to emphasise is that there will be wider benefits in encouraging more people, particularly young people, into the digital games sector, due to its duplication of STEM subjects. 

The applicability of skills achieved through games and games development are many. They include improved decision making and cognitive skills, promoting team work and communication skills and developing digital knowledge that may benefit a number of sectors within and outside the digital sector. The importance of STEM subject skills to the economy cannot be overemphasised. A recent report by the UK Government suggested that one in five new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2022 will require such skills. It is important, therefore, that the education system in Wales rises to meet this challenge.

The 'Talented Women for a Successful Wales' report in 2016 highlighted significant challenges in delivering education in Wales. One of the points it made was the low take-up of STEM subjects by girls and women. It went on to say and highlight the relatively small amount of primary and secondary school teachers with STEM-specific backgrounds and skills. According to the report, 44 per cent of A-level ICT students and 12 per cent of A-level computing students are women, whilst only 28 per cent of secondary school teachers have specialist STEM backgrounds. The need to increase the supply of STEM skills through greater numbers of young people pursuing these subjects as an option has been acknowledged by the Welsh Government. Online gaming and e-sports are particularly popular with young people and a growing number of girls. This could lead to a higher take-up of STEM-based subjects, if interest in gaming and game development is utilised.

Research by the University of Surrey shows that girls aged 13 and 14 who play games for over nine hours a week are three times more likely to take up a STEM-based degree. Dr Anesa Hosein, the lead author of the report said, and I quote:

'educators seeking to encourage more take up of PSTEM subjects should target girl gamers, as they already may have a natural interest in these subjects.'

She went on to say:

'We need to get better at identifying cues early to recognise which girls may be more interested in taking up PSTEM degrees.'

Quote closed. Deputy Presiding Officer, using games and e-sports to encourage interest in STEM subjects may help to develop multiskilled students and graduates with directly transferrable skills and experiences that provide a foundation for future careers. This can only be beneficial for the Welsh economy, the future and for our children. Thank you.

I welcome the opportunity to take part in today's debate and thank David Melding for bringing forward the debate. I must admit that I was unaware of e-sports before seeing this debate on the agenda, but I recognise the potential value of the creative industries to the Welsh economy.

E-sports and video-gaming in general are a valuable part of our growing creative sector in Wales. However, I do not believe the Welsh Government should be hosting e-sports tournaments. That is the job of the British Esports Association, which can and do host competitions in the UK. A team from Ysgol John Bright were runners-up in the Overwatch section of the British Esports Championships, which took part at the Birmingham NEC a few weeks ago. The British Esports Championships are organised by the British Esports Association for school and college students aged 12 and over. A survey of pupils who have taken part in e-sports said it increases concentration, behaviour and attendance levels. E-sports are growing in popularity but are still only watched by around 3 million people in the UK. We shouldn't be spending taxpayers' money promoting this industry; instead Government resources should be spent ensuring that there are no barriers to its growth in Wales. We have to ensure Wales provides the right environment and has sufficient people with the necessary skills for e-sports and the wider video-game sector to thrive in Wales.

We also have to ensure that we are not promoting a sedentary lifestyle by encouraging young people to play video games exclusively in the hopes of becoming a world famous e-sports star. Unlike the majority of traditional sports, e-sports does not encourage greater physical activity. And I will, therefore, be supporting the Welsh Government's amendment and acknowledge that their approach is more likely to see a thriving e-sports sector in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas? 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. And may I say at the outset how much of a pleasure it is for me to be on my feet on a weekly basis here in the Siambr discussing issues with regard to the creative industries? I’m very grateful to the Conservatives for raising this matter. And it appears that we, in this debate here, have discovered something very interesting here in the Senedd across the parties, at last. And I see that the First Minister is smiling once again, after the celebration yesterday, that we have a basis for unanimity in e-sports. And I think that the term for e-sports in Welsh, ‘chwaraeon electronig’, explains more clearly what the nature of this sport is. So, it’s play in the digital arena and in the electronic area, that often happens on the internet.

But I’m very grateful to all Members who have contributed, and I think that we have had a debate that is the basis for us to develop our policy as a Government further. I did refer in the statement last week on the creative industries to this particular sector, but I accept that we can’t call a sector where there are 450 million people playing worldwide a sector that is exclusively a gaming sector—it is a digital practice and an electronic practice and there’s an opportunity for Wales to contribute in that regard, and that is an issue that is of particular interest to the Welsh Government.

I accept that the Bazalgette review, which is referred to in the motion, has quite rightly highlighted the importance of innovation within the creative industries and the possibility of developing that sector on the agenda of the UK. And it’s important to say that we in Wales are already contributing in this direction. There's the contribution of Mochi Mode from the University of South Wales in 2017 as a new business start-up and the success that they have had. There’s also the contribution made by Glyndŵr University in north Wales, which was recognised in 2018 as hub of the year in this particular field, and that too is a very important contribution for us as a Government to benefit from.

Now, these growth areas do develop intellectual potential and we agree with that. And I think it’s very important that we don’t set up a false argument in terms of this intellectual development with regard to e-sports against the idea of physical development through physical activity, because both things are just as essential for young people, I would imagine, and for people of all ages in their development as citizens and as people. And in that regard we do welcome the inquiries that the DCMS has held into this field, and we will be following what they do very carefully and try to benefit from that research as we develop what we do here in Wales.

It’s important for me to say—and this was the point of our amendment as a Government—that the Welsh Government has actively supported the growth of the video games sector. We had a trade mission to the games development conference in San Francisco, where eight Welsh games companies demonstrated their products. They had an opportunity to meet with investors and to attend networking events, and the indications that we’re aware of are that these businesses from Wales have secured over £300,000 worth of new work to date, following the conference, with a further £1 million worth of deals in negotiation.

We accept that this is a new sector, and that there are challenges faced within it. But, it's important that we are already looking at several initiatives across Government in this particular area. The major events unit, within the department that I share with the Minister, is working proactively with partners in Wales, the UK and internationally, including a number of e-sports rights owners and organisers, to identify and pursue opportunities to attract major e-sports events to Wales. These include discussing with the UK Interactive Entertainment Association, the European Gaming League and ESL, the owners of several major international properties in this sector. Sport Wales has also had discussions with the British Esports Association.

It appears to me, therefore, that we have a basis for agreement on this issue today, and I do welcome that very much. Having accepted that, we do see that there is a challenge for us as a Government to be more interactive and proactive, and to recognise that e-sports does develop new technologies that allow people to increase their social activity. We don't see e-sports as something that is necessarily isolating for people, but that there is an opportunity, rather, for them to take part in an extended global society. So, there is no conflict, as I suggested earlier, between physical health and interest in the digital sphere and e-sports.

So, to conclude, because I don't see any serious opposition in this debate, for once—and that gives me great pleasure as one of the Assembly Members who thought, after devolution, that almost every party in Wales could work together—perhaps we've had a glimpse of a happy digital future today. Thank you.  

Thank you. Can I call on David Melding to reply to the debate? 

Well, I must follow the Minister's inspiring observation that, you know, perhaps this is the world that will now mark the next 20 years of devolution, where we debate subjects on which we have broad agreement, but subjects that are still critical to our society—and in this case the economy and creative industries. But, can I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate? It's been a really interesting, informative and generous debate.

Janet started the contributions, and emphasised the entertainment value that people find from games—and they are greatly liberating for so many people. I mean, it's no wonder that they are so valued and enjoyed by people. Then, she looked at some of the UK statistics, which I had not specifically highlighted myself, and NewZoo's estimation of a 6.5 million audience in the UK. She was the first of several speakers to talk about the jobs potential that there is in the future.

Jack Sargeant looked at the growth of the UK market, and really got practical and called for an Assembly competition on FIFA. Darren—that would be the derby match really, from neighbouring areas of north Wales. I thought Jack made a really important point: in fairness to the Welsh Government, it has a record of some success in hosting major events, and we should remember that this also is an area that would be worthy of such support.

Nick Ramsay said that his knowledge was limited but growing in this area, and then delivered a most accomplished, comprehensive speech, which took us to the Bazalgette review and the importance of that really comprehensive report. Again, that’s not something that I referred to, but I do think it’s an excellent piece of work. And he talked about the importance of infrastructure, superfast broadband, and then he also mentioned the importance of STEM, which was taken up by other speakers as well.

The secrets were now gushing all of a sudden, and Rhun said that he’s an e-gamer and he occasionally beats his 15-year-old son in FIFA. So, perhaps he’ll give us more details about where he is in that particular league. But, anyway, perhaps I shouldn’t intrude into family competition. And how much the world has moved away from Subbuteo at the BBC. I have to say I thought that was a lovely image. And Llyr intervened on him and talked about a recent visit he made to a college where the students were developing a game, and just seeing the range of skills that that required, I think that was a very vivid example.

Oscar spent most time on the issue of STEM, reflecting his long-standing interest in skills and the importance of decision making, problem solving, as well as the technical skills and the need to narrow the skills gap. And there is clear applicability here in terms of students picking up these skills whilst doing something they really enjoy. And I think there’s a key opportunity for that, including involving women, who are often very poorly represented in the study of STEM subjects.

Caroline also said that she was new to the subject, but immediately saw its potential as part of a creative industry. I think it’s fair that, of all the speakers, Caroline was the most laissez-faire in her approach, welcoming the growth from the grassroots up and warning against too much governmental activity. But I do think that this is an area where the market is expanding, where it’s not crowded at the moment. There’s an awful lot of potential there, so we’ve got to get ahead, and Government does have a role to play there, as we’re seeing with the likes of the Bazalgette review, the UK Government’s strategy that’s developing, the work in Korea, and last week in Denmark. So, we shouldn’t miss the lessons that that indicates to us as well.

And then, the Minister concluded by saying that this is a developing policy, a useful debate, and I thought he made the very, very important point that we shouldn’t set up e-sports and sports particularly by saying that e-sports stop people being active in real sports. Well, you know, you can do both; you can excel at both. You can enjoy both. That is not the competition. The world is an open and exciting enough place to have e-sport activity and traditional sporting activity. And I think he generally did indicate that the Government has got ambition and an open mind here. We have this slight disagreement about the amendment, but can I just say that I would urge Members to support our motion unamended? But should the motion get amended, then please support the amended motion. Thank you.

Thank you very much. So, the proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.