I'm very glad that your statement doesn't lose sight of the path-breaking Corston report. Jean Corston's report was published 12 years ago, and very little progress has been made to date. We need to remind ourselves that what Corston said was that only those women who pose a risk to the community need to be put into prison, ergo we don't need a women's prison in Wales, because there will be so few of them it wouldn't be justifiable. What I want to know is a little bit more about the role of women's centres, because the UK Government is talking about five. Well, we don't want huge women's centres. We want ones that enable a small community of people focused on rehabilitation to be working on that process. We don't need just one for Wales, or two; we need several, whilst we still have women being sucked into the criminal justice system. But clearly we need pilots to ensure that we know which model works best, depending on the circumstances. Clearly, a woman who, for example, has an addiction and gets herself sucked into criminal gangs peddling drugs needs to be removed from the influence of that drug gang, otherwise it's going to be extremely difficult for her to leave that behind. So, a women's centre in another place could play a really important part in that.

But what I want to focus on is the role of children. You've already mentioned adverse childhood experiences. We know that the children of prisoners are far more likely than anybody else to end up in the criminal justice system, because of the appalling impact that having a parent in prison has on their life chances. So, I'd like to understand a bit better what thought is being given in this review of the report by Lord Farmer into not just looking at the relationship between women and maintaining contact with their children, but, in some circumstances, enabling children to live with their mothers, not just between nought and 18 months, which is the current possibility within the prison system. There's no reason why children couldn't live with their mother and go to school and college and work in the normal manner, in the right circumstances, where the other people in the women's centre were not a physical, violent threat to those children.

But I'd like to know a little bit more about how radically we are going to be able to be in exploring these women's centre pilots and how we can get a decision on where the first Welsh women's centre or centres are going to be, before we have the constantly revolving door of prisons Ministers. I mean, Rory Stewart was a very effective prisons Minister and addressed really important issues, like the peddling of drugs by prison officers in prisons, but how are we going to consolidate the good work that was done if we always have the shelf life of a prisons Minister being so ephemeral? And in the context of the impending leadership contest amongst the Tory Party for the next Prime Minister, how can we get the first women's centre off the ground so that we can start to see what works, what works for women, and what works for children to reduce the scandalous level of recidivism we've got?