The next item on our agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip on justice blueprints, and I call on the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

People who enter the criminal justice system in Wales are often some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society. Too frequently, people are caught up in the criminal justice system because they have been failed earlier in their lives, suffering multiple adverse childhood experiences. Sometimes, these experiences continue well into their adult lives.

The Wales Governance Centre report at the beginning of the year highlighted that Wales has the highest imprisonment rate in western Europe. The report helped us establish a much clearer picture of sentencing and custody in Wales, and it is already influencing our current and future work around offending. In Wales, we are ideally placed, through our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, to focus on the root causes of offending and to prioritise prevention through collaboration, integration and long-term planning.

The blueprints and implementation plans for youth justice and female offending being published today set out our approach to the delivery of justice services in Wales. This approach has a clear focus on early intervention and prevention, one that focuses on how we provide support to divert people away from crime in the first place, but also one which takes a holistic and rehabilitative approach to those who slip through that net. I would like to thank my predecessor, Alun Davies, for the work he carried out to bring us to this significant point of progress.

I wish also to recognise the work of the Thomas commission, which is considering the future operation of the justice system in Wales. I look forward to seeing Lord Thomas's report, which we are due to receive this autumn, and will, of course, factor that important work into our work on the blueprints moving forward.

While responsibility for the justice system in Wales rests with the UK Government, delivery of justice services here is inextricably linked to devolved services—health and social services, education, learning and skills, and housing. All of these services play a vitally important role in both the prevention of offending, but also in the rehabilitation of offenders. I welcome last week's announcement on the renationalisation of the probation service. This Government is fully supportive of the reunification of the probation service in Wales, which will take place before the end of this year.

We recognise, of course, the importance of working in partnership with the UK Government to deliver a collaborative approach to crime and justice. The Welsh Affairs Committee report on prison provision in Wales is very timely. We are moving forward with the implementation of the blueprints, whilst giving consideration to the issues arising from the report that relate to our responsibilities. I also welcomed David Hanson’s review of offender education in Wales, and will continue to work closely with Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service on the recommendations and seek to make improvements in those areas. 

We are working jointly with the Ministry of Justice to deliver improvements in a number of areas, for instance through our shared plan for prison health and well-being and the mental health crisis concordat, and the justice blueprints themselves. Over recent months, I have held a number of meetings with Edward Argar, Under-Secretary of State for Justice, former Minister for Prisons, Rory Stewart, and Minister for Policing, Nick Hurd. These meetings will continue to take place regularly as we move into the delivery phase of this important work.

Over the coming months, officials from across many departments within the Welsh Government, HM Prison and Probation Service and the Youth Justice Board will continue to work together with a range of stakeholders in the areas of justice, health and education. This continued engagement will provide an opportunity to further develop our new approaches to youth justice and female offending and to scope the views of stakeholders on proposed developments. 

I am grateful to the Youth Justice Board Cymru for its work and for its support in developing the youth justice blueprint, which builds on the key themes of the Charlie Taylor review of the youth justice system of England and Wales, but focuses on the system and support provided in Wales.

While the numbers of young Welsh people in custody has reduced significantly, many are in custody away from their homes, family and communities. The youth justice blueprint sets out a commitment for realising how devolved and non-devolved services can work together to realise children’s rights and develop a youth justice system in Wales that is based on rights-based principles.

The growing evidence of the impact of adverse childhood experiences—ACEs—is a key element in the Welsh Government’s approach, predicated on the basis of early intervention and prevention, a key feature of the youth justice blueprint. Welsh Government funding through the promoting positive engagement for young people at risk of offending grant is already offering preventative and diversionary support to young people at risk of offending in Wales.

As outlined in the implementation plan, it is our aspiration to develop a youth justice system that treats children with fairness and respect. We aim to help reduce the number of children in the system through effective diversion and prevention, and by addressing the vulnerabilities that often lead to a crime.

The female offending blueprint addresses the issue of women and the criminal justice system. I strongly endorse the principles set out in Baroness Jean Corston’s important report on this issue. Over 10 years have passed since Baroness Corston’s review, but the principles contained within it are as relevant today as they were then. It is clear that often women are sent to prison for low-level summary offences. The use of short-term prison sentences for women, and men too, who have not committed serious offences can have a catastrophic impact on them and their families. Short sentences do not enable rehabilitation in its fullest sense. Those handed short-term custodial sentences are often not in prison long enough to be able to complete programmes designed to achieve rehabilitation.

We need an urgent solution for female offending in Wales. There are around 250 Welsh women currently held in prison in England. The issues associated with being a long way from home facing Welsh women offenders and their families are considerable, and a very real concern in respect of the impact on children in particular, but also the rehabilitation of the offender. 

I'm exploring with the UK Government options for, and the implications of, the location of proposed new residential centres for female offenders. I've already made the case for at least one of these to be located in Wales, so that women can be in an environment that supports their needs, including rehabilitation and the ability to remain connected with family, friends and the wider community. I was pleased to see that the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report on prison provision in Wales highlighted concerns about the provision for distinct groups of people such as female offenders and made specific recommendations for residential centres for women to be established in Wales. I would like to thank our partners, particularly HM Prison and Probation Service for its work with us in developing the blueprint for female offending. 

The blueprints I am publishing today set out our key aspirations for women and young people in or at risk of entering the criminal justice system, and the guiding principles through which we aim to deliver these changes. Alongside the blueprints, I'm also publishing implementation plans that clearly and concisely highlight the issues and recommendations for each area, while also indicating, importantly, the work we are already doing. Together, these form the basis of a robust plan for action over the course of this Assembly and beyond. Over the coming months, each of the recommendations will be considered further, including and involving a full assessment of the impacts and feasibility of the proposals.

I thank the Deputy Minister for her meeting and pre-briefing on these justice blueprints on youth justice and female offending this morning, because when it comes to these issues, as well as wider offending, it is right to focus on early intervention and prevention. As we heard from the Deputy Minister, the Wales Governance Centre's report in January, 'Sentencing and Immediate Custody in Wales: A Factfile', found that Wales has the highest rate of imprisonment in western Europe. It also found that, although the number of prison sentences rose in Wales between 2010 and 2017, they fell 16 per cent in England. I welcome the Deputy Minister's recognition of the importance of working in partnership with the UK Government and the Ministry of Justice to deliver improvements and the collaborative approach to crime and justice. 

When we debated probation service reform here last October, I noted that last August I attended the stakeholder engagement in Wrexham by HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales to discuss future probation services in Wales and the proposals contained in the 'Strengthening probation, building confidence' consultation paper. We heard that the proposals in Wales consulted on are that from 2020 all offender management services will sit with the National Probation Service, and that HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales will explore options for the commissioning of rehabilitative services, such as interventions and community payback.

The Deputy Minister referred to last week's UK Ministry of Justice response to the consultation, on 'Strengthening probation, building confidence', which confirmed that, in the future, the National Probation Service will have responsibility for managing all offenders on a community order or licence following release from prison. It also confirms, as we know, that the Welsh Government has legislative competence in respect of devolved matters, including health, housing, social welfare and education, and this presents a different delivery landscape for probation services in Wales. How, therefore, does the Deputy Minister respond to the statement by the Ministry of Justice in this response that they intend for the provision of additional services and interventions to be put out to tender to enable a range of providers and voluntary sector organisations to compete to deliver them? Very clearly, they have the expertise and connectivity on the ground to deliver that prevention and early intervention.

You state that we need an urgent solution for female offending in Wales, quite rightly. You refer to women currently held in prison in England—around 250. Your refer to the issues associated with being a long way from home facing Welsh women offenders and their families being considerable. But, of course, criminal activity doesn't always recognise national or regional boundaries, and 48 per cent of people in Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England, 90 per cent within 50 miles. And, where I live in north Wales, Styal is only 40 miles away, whereas a women's centre or prison in central or south Wales would be a far greater disconnection from family. So, how better does the Minister consider that we can ensure that the devolved services can reach offenders within Styal prison or other prisons where women offenders from Wales are currently held, alongside the wider reforms, which I support her in seeking?

As you said, the UK Government has rejected community prisons for women, and will instead trial five residential centres to help women offenders with issues such as finding work and drug rehabilitation across England and Wales. The Ministry of Justice is also considering banning short prison sentences in England and Wales. It is recognised these are less effective at cutting reoffending than community penalties.

You referred to last week's report on prison provision in Wales from the Welsh Affairs Committee. How do you respond, given your statement that you think we should have at least one, I think, women's residential centre in Wales, to the call of the Welsh Affairs Committee for women's residential centres to be set up in north and south Wales to enable Welsh offenders to be closer to home? 

You refer to adverse childhood experiences—ACEs. How, again, do you respond to the statement in the Welsh Affairs Committee report that the Ministry of Justice should tackle gang-related problems in Her Majesty's youth offending institution Parc, including a consideration of introducing smaller, custodial units to place younger people closer to home? I mentioned this morning in our meeting Neath young offenders' home, which I visited several years ago as part of a committee inquiry, and when the institution's child psychiatrist told me that a large number of young people who committed offences arrive medicated and it was only when he was able to detox them, get them off the medication, that they could start putting the early intervention and prevention in that had been missed before the crimes were committed. What action do you propose or will you consider to update us on that and establish whether that problem still exists and how we can better ensure that those young people are not simply medicated in future? 

Finally, and going back to the question about commissioning third sector services, again I mentioned this morning an example of a charity that I have taken Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales to meet during, or shortly after, the consultation event in Wrexham last year, which specifically works with these groups of young people, and which is currently doing great work with Jobcentre Plus in north Wales and was even hosted on their stand at the Royal Welsh Show last year. This was an example of how we can reach out to expertise that does exist within the Welsh community but which is not currently able to deliver the services it seeks to provide in preventing youth offending and supporting young people away from that route in life. Thank you.  

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. Thank you for those questions. And can I acknowledge your experience and interest in this field? In fact, I know, Mark, you've been involved in former committee inquiries in this Assembly and take a close interest, of course, in your region in terms of these services. I think your comment on the Wales Governance Centre findings are key to addressing these issues and enable us also to look at issues where we are looking for more assistance in understanding the nature of the need, for example, for more data-specific information as far as Wales needs, in terms of the criminal justice system, and that's something that, of course, I've discussed with the Ministry of Justice. But the Wales Governance Centre evidence is key to help us move forward with the development of these blueprints. 

We do welcome the future proposals for the probation service. They were announced last week, but obviously we already had, as you said, the specific proposals for Wales, which highlighted Wales's own legislative and policy landscape and the different partnership arrangements that exist in Wales. I spoke to the new Minister yesterday, Robert Buckland, and he acknowledged that we have got an opportunity here in Wales to do things differently by designing a better probation system, fit for purpose, that works for the people of Wales. Yes, the announcement did include the fact that there could be a continued role for the voluntary and private sector in the delivery of unpaid work and accredited programmes. That's something that we would want to discuss in terms of what that would mean. I know that there are concerns about that because the reunification has to be a reunification that gives the probation service and probation professionals a real opportunity to, again, re-embrace their role, particularly in this public service.

I think you also make key issues about the impact and the effectiveness of devolved services in reaching, for example, as you say, women in Styal prison. I'm visiting Eastwood Park next week, where we know that the reach, again in terms of devolved services and liaison, and the fact that, of course, many of those women, in both Styal and Eastwood Park, have got families, and circumstances, and engagement and liaison with their homes and communities is crucial—. I will be taking stock of the effectiveness of those devolved services. It's not just health and social services, of course; education, skills, learning, housing—these are crucial.

I also welcome the fact that you acknowledge the Welsh Affairs Committee's call for at least one—one in north Wales, I think they're saying, and one in south Wales—of the women's residential centres. I've said in my statement that I would like at least one. Obviously, they are suggesting that there could be five women's residential centres. What is very important also is that we can have an impact on the nature of those and scope of those centres. We are already having workshops between Welsh Government, Ministry of Justice officials and those partners who will have an impact and be able to shape those centres, and I look forward to an early announcement on this in terms of taking this forward.

Your points about youth justice are also important. I think Hillside, of course—and you commented on Hillside—I'd have to say that Care Inspectorate Wales have conducted a follow-up inspection of Hillside secure children's home and found that the facility's now compliant in all areas. The Youth Custody Service have set improvement standards for Hillside management, and also those have to be implemented. Of course, there were improvements required by Care Inspectorate Wales, and the Youth Custody Service will be monitoring progress on those standards.

I think the point you make about third sector organisations that have actually made a difference, and you told me about those earlier on, which actually are playing a part in terms of the diversionary, the preventative, the engagement, which, of course, acknowledges the impact of ACES on young people's lives—. It has been helped by the Welsh Government funding of the promoting positive engagement for young people at risk of offending grant. That's offering that kind of preventative and diversionary support to young people at risk, but it's also important that we acknowledge those third sector organisations as you've done today.

I welcome the reversal of the privatisation of the probation service. This money-making venture was widely criticised and warned against in the first place. But the private sector will still be part of the probation service; only 80 per cent of the probation work will be removed from privatisation. Now, Napo have raised concerns that the provision of unpaid work and accredited programmes still fall under the privatised system, and I share their concerns about that. Napo have said:

'We are obviously disappointed that there is an intention for some probation work to remain in the private sector. Napo will continue to campaign to ensure that all of these services and our members who provide them, are eventually transferred back into the public sector and that we will step up our efforts to secure pay parity for all probation staff.'

Would the Minister agree with me that devolving responsibility for criminal justice would allow us to take this issue out of the Tories' hands for good and operate a system that properly reduces offending as well as protecting communities from harmful offenders? And does she also agree that unpaid work and group work should be part of a united public probation service?

I'm pleased to see that the consideration for a Welsh women's prison is ruled out. Instead, a call for more community-based approaches is prominent right across the sector. The charity Women in Prison says that prison for women reinforces trauma, causes mental health issues and increases the risk of self-harm, whilst the Prison Reform Trust say that women released from prison are more likely to reoffend than those who are serving community sentences. Peter Clarke, HM Chief Inspector of Prisons, says that distance from home and family is more acute for women prisoners and, therefore, a smaller community-based facility or facilities could produce better outcomes.

Clearly, there's a very strong case for new residential centres for women offenders in Wales. The Government's female offender strategy has called for 10 women's centres but for only one of those to be in Wales, and the Welsh Affairs Committee, to which my colleagues Liz Saville Roberts and Ben Lake contributed, have recommended that two are needed in Wales—one in the north and one in the south. Having just one centre in Wales wouldn't be good enough. There has to be provision at both ends of the country to mitigate the current issues that we have with distance.

So, what efforts are you making with the UK Government to emphasise the Welsh Affairs Committee's recommendation that at least two centres are located in Wales, and what can you do about the problem that was raised with me last week by one of the women offenders that our committee met in Eastwood Park Prison as part of an inquiry that we're doing, where the lack of approved premises for women means that some prisoners can't be released on tag, whereas others with a home address can? What can you do about approved premises for women offenders?

Whilst it's important to consider where and how best to deal with women offenders, it's also important to move the focus of the debate on to how we best tackle the underlying issues that cause offending. More needs to be done to take seriously the severe societal, family and personal consequences of placing women into prison, but, further to this, more needs to be done to tackle seriously the consequences and impact of a custodial sentence after release, and this goes for everyone, not just women prisoners.

Offenders are amongst the most vulnerable people in our society, and substance misuse, mental health problems, homelessness and reoffending are all by-products of entering the prison system unless we have schemes in place to support those people. Decent counselling for adverse childhood experiences is needed in order to combat traumatic effects on the family, health services in and out of prison are needed to combat addiction and mental health issues, and proper housing and prioritisation is needed to combat homelessness. So, I wonder if you can tell us, then, what can be done to tackle adverse childhood experiences, first of all when they happen in childhood, and, secondly, what can be done to help adult survivors of ACEs. Dealing with ACEs will undoubtedly reduce crime. Does the Minister agree with me on that point?

Thank you very much, Leanne Wood, also clearly speaking with your experience, coming to this Assembly with that experience and speaking up on these justice issues, and also recognising that the points that you have made today are very valid in terms of how we take forward the implementation of these blueprints. I also, in terms of the probation service and the fact that there was widespread welcome of the reunification of the probation service in Wales, when that was announced at an earlier stage, recognise the fact that there were also concerns raised about how that would play out in terms of some of the responsibilities that would remain with the private and third sector, and I spoke to Napo about that as well. But I think the proposed changes actually do provide an opportunity to revisit the national pathway and to look at re-examining the entire through the gate service in Wales to allow for differences in services, and they may be both voluntary and statutory, but I will be meeting with Napo again, and the prison and probation service, to look at how we can develop this bespoke approach in Wales.

You also make important points in terms of our criminal justice. The First Minister outlined three areas that we should begin a focus on in terms of crime and justice, with the devolution of the youth justice system and probation service to Wales and new powers in relation to women offenders. We know that the criminal justice system is currently the responsibility of the UK Government, but many of the services required to manage offenders and ex-offenders and promote rehabilitation are devolved to the Welsh Government, so we do look forward to the response of the Thomas commission. The fact that that was established in September 2017, taking evidence throughout last year, chaired, of course, by former Lord Chief Justice, John Thomas—it received 150 submissions from people with direct experience. So, that will be crucial to us when we receive this report in September in terms of moving this forward.

I think your points about female offending are key. I am pressing for more than one centre in Wales. I made that clear in my statement and I believe those centres have got to meet the needs of Wales. As I've already described, I'm meeting women offenders shortly when I visit Eastwood, and I'll look into that issue in terms of approved premises for women offenders, but I think it's interesting when we look at the kind of models that are being considered in terms of women's residential centres, because there have already been proposals made. There are, for example, discrete unit models, where women on the cusp of custody, who may struggle to comply with a community order, at risk of a custodial sentence—that would be referred through a community order with conditions attached to the centre, referred by probation on licence.

There's also the hub-and-spoke model, a sentence to community order with conditions attached to the centre, a phased support model, which also will—not only in terms of community order conditions, but other community orders and suspended sentence, referred by probation services on licence. So, there's a whole range of issues and options being looked at in terms of the potential for these women's centres.

We need to ensure that we look at those wider issues in terms of the preventative nature of the work that we're undertaking—that's where we have the devolved responsibilities—in terms of ACEs and the fact that this is about intervention and prevention at an early stage.

Can I start by saying how much I welcome the statement this afternoon and welcome publication of these blueprints? I should also say that I'm very grateful to the Minister for her kind words in her statement. The failure of the criminal justice system to take proper account and regard of the devolved settlement is little short of a scandal, and it is an unhappy fact that the price of this scandal is paid by some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged people in our country. It is something that I hope the United Kingdom Government will pay proper attention to in the coming weeks and months, and I hope that the publication of these blueprints ensures that that debate takes place.

I welcome also the points that have been made by the Minister on the announcement made last week on the future of the probation service. I very much agree with the criticisms made of that that have been made this afternoon by Leanne Wood. I think she's absolutely right, and what we would all like to see, I think, on different sides of this Chamber, is a return to decent public provision and public management of that service to ensure that the needs of the offender and the community are put first and that we don't go down the route, inadvertently, of putting private profit as the motivating factor for the delivery of that service.

Like others this afternoon, I read the Welsh Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons' report with some interest. The select committee was able to identify all the problems facing the services, but unfortunately weren't able to agree on any solutions to those problems. And such is the life of select committees in the House of Commons. But I think it's incumbent upon us this afternoon to understand that the identification of the problems is an initial first step, but it is our role, and certainly your role, Minister, as Government, to find those solutions.

I hope that we can move quickly, first of all to establish a system to deal with women who are in, or are at risk of being in, the criminal justice system. That means that we need to approach the sentencing policy as well. I hope, Minister, you've had the opportunity to discuss these matters with the judiciary to ensure that sentencing policy takes account of the wider development of policy in this field, and I hope that we will make the case. I do agree with the points that are being made about a women's centre that is local to women across different parts of the country, and that does argue in favour of more than one centre and not simply a centre that is built for the convenience of the service and not the convenience of the people who are receiving that service.

And I hope also, Minister, that we can agree that this women's centre will be managed by the Welsh Government. It's absolutely critical, I think, that we move away from discussions of a women's prison, which we've had in the past, and that we ensure that a women's centre is a fundamentally different institution and that it is managed by the Welsh Government, and the services provided there are provided for women as individuals and also for children and for women as heads of families, and that we ensure that we're able to deliver the services that they require not simply in a punitive way, but in a way that enables them to reach their potential and live the lives that they would choose to live. 

In terms of young people, I think it's an absolutely screaming disaster the way that we treat children and young people today. The youth offenders centre in Parc prison is staffed by people who work extraordinarily hard to do their very best for the people who are there, but we know that we need specific facilities for young people, and we also need to ensure that the young people who are within the criminal justice system today have an opportunity to forge different lives in the future, and that means training and an education that enables them to do so.

Finally, let me say this, Minister: I was very pleased to hear the statement you made earlier, but also your commitment to devolution of the criminal justice system. We're in the absurd position today where the United Kingdom Government is unable to deliver its own policy in Wales, but neither is the Welsh Government able to deliver its policy. So, we have two Governments that are unable to deliver policy in a single field. It is time—and it is incumbent on the United Kingdom Government to take responsibility for this—that the people of Wales were well served by those elected to take decisions on these matters. The failure to address the devolution of the criminal justice system is a standing rebuke to parliamentarianism at present. The people who are suffering the consequences of that are the people who are probably least able to effect change. I hope, Minister, that when you meet UK Ministers, you will make it absolutely clear to them it is their responsibility to ensure that we have a system that is fit for purpose, and that means the devolution of the system in its entirety to allow us to pursue the holistic policy that we and others want to see delivered for the people of this country.

I thank Alun Davies very much for his questions and for his continued commitment to moving forward. I've paid tribute to the work that you undertook. I remember always Alun Davies has demonstrated his commitment to this policy area, and it is his commitment to this policy area that has helped bring us to this point where I can announce not only blueprints for young people, youth justice and female offending, but also the implementation plans. Because I think that's what you will have wanted to see from me as your successor—that, actually, this was about implementation.

I published those implementation plans so that yourselves, Assembly Members—and I would hope to take this forward in terms of scrutiny and opportunity with our partners to see how this—. It has to be delivered. Of course, it involves ministerial commitments across the Welsh Government in terms of health, social care, housing, learning, education—all have got a role—and also our partners. I'm very pleased that the children's commissioner, for example—I've met with her to talk about the youth justice blueprint—is anticipating engaging with that in terms of taking this forward.

Yes, I think it's important that we look at how women's residential centres can actually meet the needs—not only meet the needs of the women in the communities that they serve, but also that the devolved services that we're responsible for play that full and important role.

You make key points about youth justice. Non-custodial community-based sentences are entirely dependent on devolved services in terms of not only youth and female offending services—and we have to look at the sentencing issues, which came over very clearly in the Cardiff University governance centre report. We are acutely aware of the impact that short-term sentences have on providing any meaningful resettlement services—for example, there are particular issues at Cardiff prison—but also recognising, in terms of youth justice, the fact that we have such a key role to play.

This is partly responding as well to the former questions from Leanne Wood about adverse childhood experiences. We have to work together to implement the models of service set out in the blueprints. There's potential to achieve reductions in ACEs as well as create powerful and innovative preventative approaches. So, we have so much within our powers and responsibilities, which is why I look forward to the recommendations that I think, in this territory, will be coming forward from the Thomas commission in terms of the future operation of the justice system in Wales.

I'm very glad that your statement doesn't lose sight of the path-breaking Corston report. Jean Corston's report was published 12 years ago, and very little progress has been made to date. We need to remind ourselves that what Corston said was that only those women who pose a risk to the community need to be put into prison, ergo we don't need a women's prison in Wales, because there will be so few of them it wouldn't be justifiable. What I want to know is a little bit more about the role of women's centres, because the UK Government is talking about five. Well, we don't want huge women's centres. We want ones that enable a small community of people focused on rehabilitation to be working on that process. We don't need just one for Wales, or two; we need several, whilst we still have women being sucked into the criminal justice system. But clearly we need pilots to ensure that we know which model works best, depending on the circumstances. Clearly, a woman who, for example, has an addiction and gets herself sucked into criminal gangs peddling drugs needs to be removed from the influence of that drug gang, otherwise it's going to be extremely difficult for her to leave that behind. So, a women's centre in another place could play a really important part in that.

But what I want to focus on is the role of children. You've already mentioned adverse childhood experiences. We know that the children of prisoners are far more likely than anybody else to end up in the criminal justice system, because of the appalling impact that having a parent in prison has on their life chances. So, I'd like to understand a bit better what thought is being given in this review of the report by Lord Farmer into not just looking at the relationship between women and maintaining contact with their children, but, in some circumstances, enabling children to live with their mothers, not just between nought and 18 months, which is the current possibility within the prison system. There's no reason why children couldn't live with their mother and go to school and college and work in the normal manner, in the right circumstances, where the other people in the women's centre were not a physical, violent threat to those children.

But I'd like to know a little bit more about how radically we are going to be able to be in exploring these women's centre pilots and how we can get a decision on where the first Welsh women's centre or centres are going to be, before we have the constantly revolving door of prisons Ministers. I mean, Rory Stewart was a very effective prisons Minister and addressed really important issues, like the peddling of drugs by prison officers in prisons, but how are we going to consolidate the good work that was done if we always have the shelf life of a prisons Minister being so ephemeral? And in the context of the impending leadership contest amongst the Tory Party for the next Prime Minister, how can we get the first women's centre off the ground so that we can start to see what works, what works for women, and what works for children to reduce the scandalous level of recidivism we've got?

Thank you to Jenny Rathbone for those crucial points and questions. I'm glad that you've drawn attention to Jean Corston's seminal report on this issue, on the vulnerabilities of women in the criminal justice system 12 years ago. Yourself and Julie Morgan and Julie James, and others across the Chamber—Leanne Wood and others—have raised these issues in terms of how we can take this forward—and with Alun's support when he had that ministerial role as well. Too many women have been sent to prison, often for those low-level summary offences. The impact, as I said, of incarceration, has had a catastrophic impact on them and their families, and it doesn't do anything in terms of treatment, rehabilitation or any—. There is work being done in terms of reducing the number of women—by the UK Government—in custody serving less than 12 months.

But without this new facility of the women's residential centres, approximately 175 women at any one time will still be serving sentences for 12 months away from their families and communities. So, this must stop, and I think we now have to take responsibility with our powers and with these blueprints today, and in implementation plans, which have actually been backed now by the Ministry of Justice. So, now is the time to do it, regardless of the politics of the future. Now is the time to grasp it. So, the response, I think, across the Chamber from Assembly Members is very valuable in terms of the message I'll be taking back to Ministers in the UK Government.

I'm interested that you mentioned Lord Farmer's report in terms of children, because we are looking at women's residential centres, and I've already commented on who may be appropriate and eligible for those centres, and we need to co-produce to look at—for example, we have worked very closely with the Wales Women in Justice group for their ongoing involvement. That's co-chaired by the deputy police and crime commissioner for South Wales Police and Welsh Government officials. But also, clearly, we have worked with campaign groups who are engaged in this issue, particularly in taking it forward.

But Lord Farmer has been reviewing how we can support men in prison in England and Wales to engage with their families to reduce reoffending, but he has been asked to carry out a further piece of work that will consider if and how each of the review's recommendations could be adjusted for women offenders as well. It was originally focused on men in prison, but Lord Farmer's been asked to broaden his remit and make additional recommendations for women on community sentences and women in the community post release. So I will be following this through in terms of what that means in terms of children. I think we don't have to be prescriptive on this point about potential models of residential women's centres. But we have to be very clear about what this means in terms of access to children and with children in terms of those residential women's centres. I'm grateful for those questions.

Thank you very much, Minister.