The next item, therefore, is the statement by the Minister for Education on managing workload and reducing bureaucracy. I call on the Minister for Education to make her statement. Kirsty Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm in no doubt that managing workload and reducing classroom bureaucracy is essential if we're to support our teachers to raise standards. This Government remains determined to give teachers the time to do what they do best: planning and teaching the best possible lessons for their pupils.

Finding better ways to manage workload and reduce bureaucracy is a significant challenge, but one that we need to meet head on if we want to ensure a high-quality, motivated education workforce. I'm pleased that we have made good progress in a short space of time to support our heads and our teachers. For example, over the last two years we have been developing a new evaluation and accountability system based on trust, respectful professional dialogue, and proportionality; we have produced reducing workload resources, training materials and guidance in conjunction with our stakeholders, including Estyn, regional consortia and unions; we're investing £36 million to reduce infant class sizes, ensuring teachers can devote more time and attention to pupils; we're replacing paper-based tests with less burdensome online assessments to support pupil progress and learning; we've introduced improvements to ensure equity of access for teachers to digital resources and services via Hwb; and we've established school business manager pilots, and over 100 schools were identified by local authorities as part of that programme, which has been running for now nearly two years, providing additional administrative support to school leaders. 

Now, those are just some examples of the actions that, working together, we have delivered. And of course, I'm conscious that schools need to be supported as we prepare for the roll-out of the new curriculum. My officials continue to identify best practice to minimise the impact of any workload issues as the new curriculum begins to roll out in 2022. However, while it’s clear that we are making progress in addressing workload, more can and more must be done. I recognise the importance of continuing to work collaboratively with the sector to find further ways to support the workforce. And to that effect, in April, I established a managing workload and reducing bureaucracy group, consisting of stakeholders from across all tiers and trade unions. This group has considered the priorities that we can start work on immediately, as well as additional short, medium and longer term actions as part of a broad plan that identifies work to be carried out to support teachers to manage workload.

From the many actions to be considered going forward, we have decided to concentrate on four immediate key priorities that we can deliver during the autumn term, before revisiting the medium and the longer term proposals of the group. These four priorities are (1) to develop a workload and well-being charter and toolkit for the school workforce, (2) to refresh and promote the reducing workload resources and training pack and, crucially, to monitor its take-up, (3) to further develop and circulate the training models and exemplar case studies produced across all four regional consortia to develop a cohesive approach to be applied on a national basis, and (4) to carry out a sector-wide audit exercise to examine what data is collected across all tiers, and how impact assessment on workload should be considered as part of any policy development.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

The managing workload and reducing bureaucracy group met to discuss taking forward these four priorities on 5 June. Stakeholders across all tiers and trade unions have committed to ensure that these priorities get under way as quickly as possible. However, once these have been met, the group will continue to work through the action plan to address the shorter, medium and longer term actions identified to help manage workload better and reduce bureaucracy wherever possible.

It is extremely important that we keep focused on this task to ensure the smooth roll-out of our educational reforms going forward. I recognise the work and time commitment that all stakeholders have provided to help tackle this important issue and I look forward to their future engagement and commitment. It is really important that we continue to work collaboratively to meet challenges head on and to ensure we identify all possible ways to manage workload better and to reduce bureaucracy.

Additionally, will be looking to support this work by undertaking another school workforce survey within the next 12 months and will be commencing discussions with stakeholders shortly regarding the delivery of that survey. I'm confident that the work we are doing will support our goal of developing a high-quality education profession that is well supported. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure, like everybody in this Chamber, actually, we come across teachers who still tell us that workload is one of the main issues for them and the update we've had today will help us understand and perhaps ask them whether they've had the kind of support that you've just been talking about in the schools in which they teach, because I suppose one of the things that you'd be interested in finding out as well is whether the steps that have been taken to improve workload have made their way to the chalkface, so to speak. 

We have, as we know, a teacher recruitment problem perhaps verging on the threshold of crisis now—not unique to Wales, of course, but particularly acute in certain parts of Wales, as evidenced by difficulties we have with meeting the demand for supply teachers in certain parts of Wales. The Children, Young People and Education Committee certainly agreed with you in 2017 that workload was affecting the potential to teach to good standards, but also damaging the well-being of staff as well. That's why it recommended immediate work to establish the level that workload was a barrier to recruitment. 

Since then, of course, we've had the pay and conditions review as well, which you didn't mention in your statement, but I think it's pertinent to the general point. I'm a bit curious, though, why the managing workload and reducing bureaucracy group was only established in April this year and why it's only now that they've identified the need to carry out a sector-wide audit and to, if I understand this correctly, assess the impact of impact assessments. Do you wonder—? Well, perhaps I wonder whether the delay has extended the period during which teacher recruitment is a challenge. 

Just on the point of the school business manager pilot, that of course was one of the actions that had some attention at the time. I'm not 100 per cent sure quite when the first managers went into the schools, but perhaps you can give us some indication of the reporting back that you've had during that time, as requested by the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Can you also tell us how much of that £1.28 million cost, which was earmarked for this work, has been spent and how straightforward it's been, particularly in the current climate, to get the local authorities to share that cost, as of course that was part of the original intention? 

I've spoken to teachers in my region who speak really, really highly of Hwb—so much so that some of the private schools, as you know, are very willing to pay to have access to that service as well. But what can you tell us about some of the other resources you've mentioned in your statement and the take-up for that and perhaps who's paying for those as well? In particular, I've got some concerns about this one-page guidance issued by Estyn to help teachers understand how to reduce their workload. The pay review concluded that it had fallen on stony ground, with teachers still working up to 50 hours a week and high rates of teacher absence. 

I guess I'm asking how the findings of the 2018 pay review, or pay and conditions review, have adjusted your priorities for reducing workload and bureaucracy and are they mitigating that extra work that is now being undertaken by teachers to make up for the staff that schools are letting go as a result of schools' core budget allocations having shrunk so considerably in these last couple of years? Because it would be disappointing, I'm sure you'd agree, for progress to be made in reducing workload only for that then to have to be rolled back simply because the number of teachers in schools has diminished. 

Briefly, because supply teachers are a big player in helping to reduce workload—we probably need another statement on this, but if you can just give us an indication about the work that's going on to retain supply teachers to build capacity within the workforce, if you like. And then finally, perhaps related to that, the preparation for the new curriculum. New entrants, of course, will be trained in this from the beginning, but you found £9 million last year and £15 million this year to prepare the existing workforce for the future. With the shortages of supply cover and shortages of in-school capacity now and an existing heavy workload, how can you be sure that, even though you might have found the money, the teachers are finding the time to become Donaldson ready? And, if teachers are already leaving because of high workload, I don't think that £24 million will stop them leaving, and I'm wondering then how you can explain how that money could be used to help teachers stay in the system, because I don't think the connection's being made, by the teachers that I've spoken to anyway, at the moment. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Suzy, for those questions. As I outlined in my statement, we have not been tone deaf to the concerns that have been raised by teaching unions with regard to workload. I outlined a number of actions the Government has already taken. The establishment of the group was to move these issues forward at greater pace and to ensure that all voices are heard. That means that all the unions, whether they represent headteachers, whether they represent the teaching workforce and, crucially, those that support teachers and teaching assistants are part of that group as well as regional consortia and Estyn. It is they that have decided that these are the four areas that they want to see progress on in the autumn term and I'm delighted that, collectively, Government, the middle tier and the unions have agreed that way forward, because you are correct to say that workload is one issue that the profession has cited as an issue that perhaps works against us in our attempts to bring more people into the profession, although I have to say constantly talking about what a difficult, challenging job it is doesn't help our recruitment efforts. Undoubtedly, teaching is a challenging role, but it is a highly, highly rewarding career and we want to make sure that more people choose it and that more people who choose to train stay in that profession for the entirety of their careers.

The Member asked some specific questions about the school business manager pilot. As I said, over 100 schools were identified by local authorities as part of the pilot. Originally, 11 local authorities submitted proposals to take part. They included Anglesey, Monmouthshire, Caerphilly, Cardiff, Conwy, Powys, Carmarthenshire, the Vale of Glamorgan, Torfaen, Bridgend and Swansea. And, in the end, 10 out of the 11 authorities have schools that have taken part in the programme. In July 2018, officials commissioned Miller Research to conduct an independent interim review of the performance and the operation of the pilot in its first year, and the interim evaluation report found that the vast majority of the feedback from headteachers and school leaders was very positive. The main benefits are around time savings, reduced workload and actually driving value for money in the way in which the school utilises its budget. And having a business manager had had a positive impact in reducing the admin workload on primary, and in some cases secondary, headteachers. The posts had also allowed them to see improvements in the effectiveness of business management systems across clusters as well as, as I said, cost-effective school financial management.

Some of the figures that have been saved on school photocopying contracts are literally eye-watering, and perhaps I will be able to give Members further details on that. But having that one person that has a certain set of skills and, crucially, has the time to turn their attention to these issues, has made an impact. I was lucky enough to visit the business managers that are working in the Monmouthshire pilots and the Conwy pilots, and they have worked collectively as a team of people to manage their workload as well, to ensure that they're not reinventing the wheel when designing, for instance, responses to changes in data protection. So, they do it once for their school and then they share that with the other business managers. So, there's some excellent practice. We're aiming to commission a full independent evaluation during the spring term of 2020, and best practice examples will form part of that evaluation. We'll be providing exemplar cases that we can share across the system. So, that independent evaluation of that scheme has been done on an interim basis, and will continue.

With regard to Hwb, I'm glad that the Member has had positive feedback from the profession regarding the usefulness of Hwb. Can I give an example of just one way in which we're improving access to that? In March this year, I announced that Wales will be one of the first countries in the world to centrally fund Microsoft classroom software applications for all maintained schools, thanks to new investment by the Welsh Government. Not only will this new £1.2 million investment improve equity of access to digital classroom software, it actually allows teachers free access to that, and they can use that licence to have that software on up to five devices. So, they don't need to be able to pay for multiple licences if they want to have access to that; for instance, if they are working from home or working remotely at any time. So, that just takes the burden and makes sure that they have the resources that they need.

The Member is right that there could have been a separate statement on supply, but the Member will be aware that the priority for me has been to improve the terms and conditions of the work of supply teachers with a new national contact for supply agency, which I believe will drive up standards and, crucially, provide an underpinning with regards to pay and conditions, which I hope will be of real benefit to those that find themselves working in supply, which is a very important aspect of our education workforce.

And finally, on the issue of professional learning, let's be clear that the money in itself is not there to persuade people to stay and be teachers; the money is there primarily to ensure that those teachers are best prepared and are able to take advantage of the new curriculum. But what we do know from research that is currently being undertaken by some of our IT providers is that ensuring that teachers have access to career-long professional development is one of the ways in which we can attract the best and the brightest into the profession. When we benchmark teaching against other professions that other highly skilled graduates may want to go into, one of the things that they say they're looking for is that ongoing professional development and that route to progression within that profession. So, professional learning in this context is about delivering the curriculum, but actually that commitment to those individuals that we will support their career throughout their time in our schools with continuous professional learning is really important.

And with regard to time, the Member will be aware we've recently consulted, for instance, on one additional INSET day to supplement the INSET days that schools already have for professional learning, and I hope to be able to move forward with those regulations shortly.

Thank you for the statement. There is no doubt that reducing teachers’ workload and reducing bureaucracy is an important part of the improvements that need to be made in order to improve standards in Wales. The relationship between a teacher and a pupil is crucial to the success of teaching in the classroom, and anything that has an impact on that relationship needs to be questioned and scrutinised regularly. I'm sure you would agree that we do need to create a profession that is more attractive to young people, and reducing workload and bureaucracy is all part of that circle of making the profession more attractive, I believe.

Can I ask first of all about the data audit that you mention in the fourth point that you make here? What will be the scope of this exercise? Are you looking at it from the point of view of reducing the amount of data that teachers are expected to record? I'm sure that would be welcomed. All this data collection must be a burden that could be reduced substantially. So, I do welcome this audit as a starting point for that.

In the longer term, do you believe that we need a more comprehensive review for the future, looking not only at the data that needs to be recorded and collected but also the fact that all these different bodies and organisations need responses, very often? So, a teacher has to be responsive to various layers and various people involved within the school, and I sometimes wonder whether there is too much of that happening and if there's duplication of what is monitored and what teachers have to respond to. That duplication is often unnecessary and we need to look at streamlining that whole aspect of teachers' work, which is, again, an intervention that can have an impact on that relationship I mentioned earlier. Elements of it, of course, are things that have to happen. But I'm just wondering if there is too much of the same happening. That's my question there. In the longer term, perhaps we may need to look at that in greater detail.

Suzy Davies mentioned the business managers in schools, and I listened to you talking about the pilot where 100 schools have been participating for two years. It's also my understanding that the business manager role works well, and you outlined some of the benefits in your statement. But because of all of the other demands on school funding, I wonder whether this function is sustainable in a climate of cuts. And anecdotally, at least, I hear that fewer and fewer schools are investing in that role or that the business manager role is perhaps the first to disappear in periods of financial cuts, despite the clear benefits. And, of course, having a business manager isn't a realistic option for some of our smaller schools. I just wonder whether we need to work there on some sort of business manager working across a number of schools. And I do know that that happens in some areas, and that is perhaps good practice that could be rolled out.

Finally, may I ask you about the review carried out by Mick Waters and Melanie Jones on the devolution of pay and conditions to Wales? I assume that part of this statement is a response to some of their comments. But there were 37 recommendations in that report, and I know that you responded to some of them, and some still stand. It would be good to have a further statement on some of those remaining issues. For example—this is worthy of consideration, I think—they suggested a system of career management and support for teachers and suggested a new employment model for school heads where leaders work on a regional level rather than being linked to individual schools. Now, it would be interesting to have your response to that. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree the with it, but it would be interesting to see how that debate would develop. There could be benefits if one needed leadership at a higher level than the level of the individual school, and the skills of heads could perhaps be shared across a number of schools or on a regional basis. So, when do you intend to respond to all of those recommendations made in the report by Waters and Jones?

And finally, how much scope do you see in the longer term to improve the conditions, including workload and bureaucracy, by means of the new devolved powers on teachers’ pay and conditions? Perhaps you can explain how you see the remit of the independent body developing as we see these new powers taking root and as we get a better understanding of what the possibilities are in using these new powers in moving forward.

Can I thank Siân Gwenllian for those comments and questions? She began by asking a question about the extent of the data audit. The Welsh Government will lead on this priority, and work is under way to conduct an audit on the mandatory data currently collected, as is required by regulations, and crucially, what is that data used for. Does it actually add to raising standards, closing the attainment gap and the goals of the national mission? So, we're starting with our own asks of schools. Once that has been completed, a further audit will be carried out on what data the middle tier collects from schools—that's local education authorities and the regional consortia. And again, crucially, what is that data used for? Does it add to teaching and learning, or are we just collecting it for the sake of collecting it and it sits in a computer file or in a paper file somewhere? The group will then be in a position to review these data collections to identify whether there is duplication, and whether the collections are still necessary and whether they are relevant, and if any can be more streamlined or, crucially, removed from requirements altogether. So, that's the purpose of the audit, starting with what we ask first as a Government and then looking to what the middle tier asks.

That led, then, onto questions about the middle tier. The Member suggested that perhaps this was for the longer term. Well, it's certainly not for the longer term as far as I'm concerned. Earlier this year, we set up the middle tier group that is chaired by Dylan Jones of Trinity Saint David, a very experienced and successful ex-headteacher who now leads the school of education in Carmarthen. The purpose of that group is to do exactly what Siân Gwenllian said: to ensure that there is greater alignment between aspects of the middle tier, to ensure that there is no duplication and that the asks that are being placed upon headteachers and teachers are consistent—so no headteacher should ask themselves, 'Whose hoop am I jumping through today? Is it the LEAs, is it the regional consortia, it it Estyn, is it Welsh Government?' and so that there is an alignment and a very clear line of sight about what is being asked of our schools, and, crucially, whose job it is to do what. There is not enough money in the system for us to be falling over ourselves and duplicating the roles of other players in the field. So, that's the purpose of that group—to get clarity for our middle tier about whose job is it to do what, when it is their job to do it, and to ensure that there is clarity for our school leaders about what is being asked of them. That work is ongoing at the moment.

With regard to school business managers, perhaps it is inevitable that people will ask about whether it's right to use resources to employ non-teaching professionals, but as I said, the interim evaluation of the pilot to date has been very much welcomed by the headteachers involved, and in many cases, the savings that those business managers have been able to drive, for instance, in some of their purchasing decisions, has actually paid for the cost of their salaries in some cases. Now, of course, that can't be repeated, necessarily, year on year, but there is real value in those posts. And the Member is quite right; it may not be possible for a single school to employ a business manager because of the size of that school, and in many of the pilot areas, what we have seen is a single business manager working across a cluster of schools, especially small primary schools. And I know from the pilot in my own area, that's what has happened: a single business manager has been working for a number of primary schools that, on their own, cannot afford that resource, but actually, that's the most efficient way of doing it and doing it very, very successfully. Welsh Government places a big emphasis on the contribution school business managers can bring to our education system. So much so that in our Welsh teaching awards, we actually do present an award to the school business manager of the year—the individual who has added so much to their school. And we're never short of nominations for that particular award.

I will certainly update Members on where we are with the individual recommendations of the Waters report. Of course, some of those recommendations that were made are not a matter for me, but they do need to be duly considered by the independent review process that we have set up for teachers' pay and conditions, and they are rightly a matter for that body to consider. This will be the first year that Wales will be responsible for setting teachers' pay and conditions, and the Member, I'm sure, will be cognisant of the content of my remit letter to the board. In this case, we want to establish the system, demonstrate that we are capable of running the system ourselves in Wales. Primarily, in this first year, we are looking at issues around pay. I'm sure, in years to come, the Welsh Government's remit will indeed look to ask the board to consider other aspects of teachers' pay and conditions in the round. This year, the priority is the successful establishment of that system and looking at a potential pay rise—a potential increase for our workforce. But I'm happy to update Members on the work that has been done on other aspects of the Waters report.

Thank you very much for your statement and for your earlier remarks, particularly about the fair pay for supply teachers—that is very welcome.

I just wanted to probe a little bit further on how standard is it to have lesson planning and evaluation done by teachers collectively, appropriately, in their year group or key stage, because we've all read the alarming figures about burn-out of the teaching profession, and people leaving the profession only a few years after they've been trained. So, this is obviously a very important issue. But in St Teilo's Church in Wales High School where I am a governor, as you'll be aware, all the teachers do their lesson planning and evaluation collaboratively with other members of staff, which enables them to share good practice, share good ideas and share their strengths and weaknesses. It seems to me rather obvious that that is a positive outcome for the pupils, because we don't need good ideas to be monopolised, we need them to be shared for the benefit of all pupils. So, I just wondered if you could tell us how this workload and well-being charter and toolkit are going to roll out the good practice that's going on, I'm sure, across many parts of the education system, to ensure that that collaborative working becomes standard and that people think it's fun to work together on ensuring that the challenges of the next day or the next week are going to be shared and, therefore, less burdensome.

Can I thank the Member for that contribution? What she refers to is indeed standard good practice. Many of our schools employ such mechanisms as teaching triads across disciplines, and there is much professional learning and support going on between professionals within schools and, indeed, also between schools. So, for instance, in some of our rural schools, you may find yourself in a department where you may be the single person or maybe one of two people, then, obviously, that can be burdensome. So, actually, schools working together, especially when it comes to developing new materials or in response to the new curriculum, but historians and humanities specialists in different schools working together to be able to plan is a very, very effective way of delivering that.

With regard to the workload and well-being charter and toolkit for schools, to take this forward, the group will be identifying roles and responsibilities and actions from now through to the autumn term, and then the steering group will meet throughout that period to ensure that this particular aspect of the charter and toolkit is delivered. The reason why this is seen to be important is that this can be a very practical tool that can be given to school leaders and practitioners in our schools the length and breadth of Wales to really challenge their thinking about how they're managing these processes within their own individual locations, so that we can get that national approach, rather than leaving individual leaders on their own, maybe looking for solutions, but actually challenge thinking, challenge existing practices in schools and ensure themselves that they are taking the action that is needed. That, then, will be reinforced by a refresh of the workload resources and training path that already exists, because there are materials out there, and we need to make sure that they are as relevant and up to date as they should be, make sure that they're got back out to schools and, crucially, look to work with our regional consortia to look at take-up of those resources. It's one thing producing them, but as Suzy Davies said, with some of the resources that have gone there before, does that actually impact upon practice in schools? We'll be looking at working with regional consortia to measure that impact as we go forward.

Finally, Mark Reckless.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Minister sets out four priorities, and I just wonder if she could clarify a little the differences between them. We have the workload and well-being charter and toolkit, and then the reducing workload resources and training pack, and then, separately, the training models, I think, coming from the consortium. I wonder if she could just help us understand a little better how those three initiatives will interact with each other.

On the sector-wide audit exercise, again, could I just clarify whether this has been done before, and if so, how long ago? Is there anything to build on here?

There's a middle tier, actually. Education Minister, you've said quite a lot in your answers to other statements about the local education authorities, but I was struck that there was no mention of them in your actual written statement. I just wonder, in this field, what is their role. What would you like them to be doing to help reduce bureaucracy? You put emphasis on alignment and consistency in how teachers and others deal with data requests, but do you also recognise that particular local authorities may have a particular approach that works for their schools and deals with their local democratic priorities and needs of schools in their areas? Are there such areas where it may be appropriate for LEAs to get the extra information that they need to feed those particular local priorities?

Finally, in terms of the school business managers, I was very struck with some of the Challenge Cymru schools, when looking around with the Children, Young People and Education Committee, how impressed we, I believe, were—and certainly I was—with those business managers and the roles they were doing. From what the Minister says, I think they should be able to replicate the cost savings. If they find cost savings, they should hopefully continue and compare salaries going forward. But I hadn't appreciated, when visiting those Challenge Cymru schools, how unusual the business managers were or the extent to which that was a pilot. We have 100 of these. About where are they spread? How realistic is it for a large secondary to hope to do all the things the business manager does if they don't have that business manager in place?

Can I thank Mr Reckless for his questions? With regard to the four priorities that have been identified by the members of the group, they build upon one another. First of all, the development of a workload and well-being charter and toolkit, that is the first step in the process of identifying within your school how you're doing, and to help you self-evaluate, and to be able to demonstrate as school leaders to your staff, and potential staff, that this is an issue that you take seriously if you have signed up to that charter. Then, of course, sometimes, schools will need particular help and support to implement new practices. That's where, then, we have the reducing workload resources and training pack, so having identified that maybe there is more that you need to do in your school, some schools may need some additional support to actually understand what best practice looks like and how they can take effective action if they have found themselves to be needing to do so. That's where the resources come in.

Practices in schools change quite a lot, so those resources were developed primarily back in 2017, and we need to make sure that they're refreshed and updated for where we are now in the system. We also, then, need to work with our regional consortia, our school improvement services, because we need to see workload and bureaucracy reduction as part of a school improvement system, rather than just for its own sake. It's got to be there for a purpose. They will then have the lead responsibility to ensure that they are circulating training models and exemplar case studies across all four consortia, on a consistent basis, so no matter where you are working in Wales you will know that you are getting a set level of information and support, and also to help feed back to me on monitoring of uptake of those training materials, so that we in the centre have a better idea that, actually, these processes are being impactful in individual education settings.

With regard to the middle tier and the role of local education authorities, can I assure the Member that they are represented on this group? So, they're not excluded from this group. They are key members of this group, and crucially, they too have agreed to sign up to the audit. There may well be a justifiable case why an individual local education authority requires schools to collect data in a certain way. They just need to demonstrate why that is relevant and why that is necessary, and that they're not just asking the schools to do that for the sake of it and that data, then, is not used to inform policy development from an LEA perspective. So, I've got no problem with collecting data as long as it is useful, it is used, and actually leads to raising standards in our schools. So if an individual local authority could justify that to its schools, its headteachers, there's no reason why they should be precluded from doing that, but you have to take the beam out of your own eye first, which is why we're starting with the Welsh Government requirements, to make sure that we are practising what we preach with regard to the data that we're asking schools to collect. Because how many times in this Chamber have we stood here and sometimes paucity of data is an issue for us, and then we say, 'Well, we should ask schools to do more of that'? So sometimes, we ourselves are responsible for driving this demand for schools to do more and more and more paperwork, and we need to stop and reflect and really think about what we're asking schools to do, and does it add value.

With regard to business managers, some individual schools were already employing business managers. The pilot is an attempt to spread that best practice, and by using some Welsh Government money, match funded by local authority money, to be able to prove the case maybe to some of those people who doubt the value of those particular roles, that actually it can make a big difference in terms of reducing workload and driving other benefits by employing that person. Sometimes, understandably, individual schools, individual local authorities, may have been reluctant to be able to experiment and to drive these posts forward. By using Welsh Government money, we've tried to demonstrate—and hopefully the evaluation will demonstrate—the effectiveness of those roles and why they're important. In secondary schools, especially our large secondary schools, they are providing a really important role that is highly valued not only by headteachers and senior managers, but often really valued by the pupils, because there is a different type of professional with whom a pupil can have a relationship, and sometimes it is the school business managers and not the professional teachers that children will want to talk to about their problems. So actually, not only are they sorting out the paper, the photocopiers, all the orders, paying the bills, organising things; actually, many of them have really, really established important relationships with children within the schools, and they are valued members of the school community. I applaud all the business managers who are working so hard in our schools in Wales today, and hopefully the pilot will demonstrate their worth even more.

Thank you very much, Minister.