I was on the committee at the beginning when it was decided to do this report and some of the initial scoping was thought through and picked up on what the Chair described as some of the concerns that motivated the committee to do this, but I haven't had the benefit of sitting through the evidence, which, at least for some members of the committee, seems to have mitigated at least some of the concerns expressed. However, at the same time, the Conservatives have switched their policy to clearly doing away with the Welsh bac. And I've read this report closely, for our group, but we're still considering what we want our policy on this to be going forward.

I just wonder whether one of the key challenges about this is explaining what the Welsh bac is, and Hefin referred to the beginning of the title, 'Bacc to the Future', which I was going to compliment the committee on, but it's then the bit that comes after that, 'The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification', and I think that implies at least a degree of uncertainty as to what it is, and I'm not sure as to the degree to which this report clears this up, although I think there have been one or two helpful statements by the Minister in response.

I thought it was a good report in general, but there was just one bit where, at least, to me, on my reading, it fell short—I thought one area was just describing the context of the Welsh bac, I don't think it clearly set out the difference between the foundation and the national level. It refers to the difference of the grading of the SCC, but not the need to have the five GCSEs on the appropriate criteria at C level plus for the national. But then for the foundation level, it's only getting the GCSEs at all, so G—[Inaudible.] Whereas you look at what then is called the English baccalaureate and I think that gives us a challenge still further of explaining the Welsh baccalaureate, and the fact that they set that as a five GCSEs at C or above or now five or above in England, and that has to include English and maths and is a little more specific in terms of, at least, the other three—I worry that that gives the impression to some, perhaps, who don't look at it in quite the level of detail that we're able to debate today, that the Welsh baccalaureate may not be as high a standard as the English baccalaureate because we have this lower foundation level that only requires the level G rather than the C or equivalent.

I also think that we aren't successful in explaining or marketing the SCC—skills challenge certificate—component, and, at least in principle, this strikes me as a good idea. I think when people look at the Welsh baccalaureate, and even in some of our conversations today, when we say, 'the bac' or 'the Welsh bac', actually, that's a multiple of things, and part of it's an umbrella that's describing a minimal level of other qualifications, and then you have this SCC that is unique to the Welsh bac, and I think the 50 per cent extended project and what that's trying to do in allowing the student a greater range of options of what they do in that, and something that's a really substantive and extended project to develop their skills, in principle strikes me as something that could work well. And I also think it's something that learners can talk to about in interviews with universities and use to their benefit in that personal statement. But I don't think it's sufficiently well understood by universities and employers and, to a degree, parents, that that SCC is something additional we're doing in Wales that's potentially a real thing they can sell, and it's not clear how that relates to the umbrella that then gives the Welsh bac that that's within, particularly when people, at least to a degree, have a perception of what the English bac is or isn't as well. And I think that's a real challenge for us to sell and explain that. And some of the areas that Suzy highlighted in terms of what learners are saying about it I think adds to that difficulty. I'm not quite ready to say, 'This is wrong', but I really do have concerns about it.

On one area, I think the Minister's response is really helpful when she says that

'The Welsh Baccalaureate is not a statutory subject in the national curriculum, and is therefore not compulsory for all pupils', irrespective of what guidance she may be revising or putting out there. That is on the record—a very clear statement.

The Minister will recall one particular constituency case that I had and in which she and her senior team were really very helpful, and it was a learner doing A-levels, applying to Cambridge, already doing four A-levels, trying to do sixth term examination paper levels for Cambridge as well, and was really struggling to fit in the Welsh bac—I mean the advanced SCC element—and his school was telling him, 'Well, actually, this is compulsory, or at least this is required, and this is because of what Welsh Government is saying.' And it wasn't easy for him to agree that at a school level, and thanks to the Minister's intervention, we had a successful outcome for that particular individual who is now at Cambridge, and congratulations to him.

But I think we have a more helpful statement here, but I just wish we could do better at selling this skills certificate and that component of it. And I worry that the A to G possibility of getting the Welsh bac but not the English bac gives the perception to some people that people who do get the national or the advanced level unfairly suffer, by comparison, if people have a perception that the Welsh bac may be easier or not at the quality of qualification as the English one is, and that English bac itself is pretty much the same performance indicator that the Minister's just decided she is no longer going to hold schools to account for.