We now turn to the short debate and I call on Dawn Bowden to speak on the topic she has chosen—Dawn.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It seems to be that today is the day for debates on housing. I'm sorry that I wasn't around actually to participate in much of the Conservatives' debate earlier on, because there's much in what was tabled in that debate that I do support, and I think that we are in a process of reaching some kind of consensus around some of the issues that we need to address in housing. So, my topic for this short debate is the power of co-operative housing solutions in helping to meet housing needs in communities across Wales, and I'd like to give a minute of my time to Mike Hedges. 

So, I'll start my debate with a short contextual analysis about housing need, and I'm then going to look at examples of co-operative housing solutions in both my constituency and further afield, and finally I will explain why I believe that co-operation is a powerful tool in helping to solve not just housing problems but also in helping to build more cohesive communities.

I always believe that housing remains a deeply political choice, a choice about priorities and a reflection of political values, but I will also acknowledge the common ground that we find in this place, as I think was noted in the earlier debate—common ground that I believe is based upon the scale and the range of housing problems that present themselves to us in our casework and in expert evidence that we receive in Assembly committees. Indeed, only last week, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee heard compelling evidence around the problems of rough-sleeping and the challenges of those people experiencing it and organisations trying to help grapple with it.

So, first, a bit of context on housing needs. I know from my own experience in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, where I see a significant need for homes to house young and single people, there is a need for more homes of a size that can help people to avoid personal debt, because of having to pay bedroom tax, and a need for private rented homes to be available at rent levels that people can afford, as well as the need to build more new private housing for those people who can use the market to buy a home, either with or without Welsh Government help, such as Help to Buy. And all of that before we even get to the issue of homelessness and how we get a roof over people's heads in the first instance—that being the most basic of human needs.

So, the case for radical housing solutions can be evidenced by a few facts—and the Minister alluded to this in her response to the earlier debate—a local housing allowance of less than £280 per month for one-bed units, while private sector rents range from some £370 to £500 per month for that size of unit; low wage levels and zero-hours contracts leading to the problem of in-work poverty, which points to the sharp challenge of affordability in many of our communities; and new house building that does not replace our older housing stock at a fast enough rate. Therefore, schemes like Help to Buy, in truth, whilst welcome, are of less benefit in my constituency than they are in some other areas.

Let me be clear: I welcome the Welsh Government's response to many of these housing challenges. Steps have been taken, even in the face of a decade of austerity, for example ending the right to buy in order to protect our valuable public housing for those in need; the funding of more affordable homes; the return of a council house building programme; greater protection for tenants and stronger regulation of landlords; stepping up action against homelessness; and the welcome embrace of a whole-system approach to these problems. There is of course more to do, and it all makes for a strong record of delivery by our Government here in Wales.

But, in this debate, and sitting amongst the many solutions, I want to highlight the opportunities for co-operative solutions to help meet the housing needs in our communities. And I'll focus on that now in this second section of my debate. Because I'm fortunate to have, in my constituency, an organisation called Merthyr Valleys Homes. And this association emerged from the stock transfer debate of earlier Assembly terms, and has become the largest tenant and employee mutual in the country.

Merthyr Valleys Homes was established in 2009, as a result of tenants voting to transfer their homes to a new not-for-profit organisation. They own and manage over 4,200 homes across the county borough of Merthyr Tydfil. In the first five years, Merthyr Valleys Homes were dedicated to achieving the promises that were made to tenants upon that transfer, and also achieving our Welsh housing quality standard targets. But, by 2014, they'd started to look at the future of the organisation and how they wanted the organisation to develop in the coming years. The board wanted to take a further step, and opted to develop a governance model that would empower tenants and employees by allowing them to become members. In turn, this would give them a real say, and they could play an important role in decision making and setting their own direction for Merthyr Valleys Homes. As a result, on 1 May 2016, Merthyr Valleys Homes transformed into a mutual housing association, and they are the first in Wales to allow both tenants and employees the opportunity to become a member and own a share in the organisation. So, Merthyr Valleys Homes is now a registered society, under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014. Their purpose is to carry on business for the benefit of the community, which they shape through their vision, entitled 'Yfory', and I think we're shortly to see the updated version, 'Yfory 2'. [Laughter.]

I'm always impressed by their very core values as a mutual organisation and in their structure as a democratic body, board and members. They are continually looking for opportunities to build a circular local economy—for example, investing in local business and trades, providing skills and apprenticeship opportunities. This is putting values into practice. So, in all this work, can I give an acknowledgement to the former chief executive of Merthyr Valleys Homes, Mike Owen—now probably enjoying himself watching the rugby world cup, or sat in a pub in Cornwall—his successor, Michelle Reid and her team, and especially Katie Howells, who's been instrumental in supporting the progress made by my next example, which is the Taf Fechan Housing Co-operative in the constituency?

Given the history I've described, it is perhaps no surprise that Merthyr Valleys Homes also helped to nurture and help develop the Taf Fechan Housing Co-operative. For those who don't know the area, the Taf Fechan flats had, in truth, become undesirable, hard-to-let units, physically run down, vandalised, and suffering anti-social behaviour. Thankfully, through the vision of Merthyr Valleys Homes, and with support through cheap finance from the local authority, the option of a housing co-operative was identified as part of a brighter future for the 12 flats that are now in the co-operative on the Gellideg estate.

So, as the Gellideg estate was and is redeveloped, these flats were retained, refurbished, and the residents have formed a co-operative to run that block of flats. Those people who are now residents in the flats have to be members of the co-operative, and therefore share a responsibility in the running of their homes. The flats are leased to Taf Fechan by Merthyr Valleys Homes, and the members of the co-operative run their homes. Vitally, this means residents taking ownership of their future, making communal decisions about rent levels, maintaining their properties, and managing who moves into the flats. I recently visited the flats, and saw for myself the pride taken in their properties and the way in which they operate collectively to maintain them. In fact, they were just completing some improvements to their communal garden area, and had agreed, within the co-operative, the balance between the leisure space and those members who wanted the opportunity to grow their own vegetables and plants. But this co-operative approach has also seen them develop greater social bonds. So, better homes, a more cohesive community, and stronger social bonds is a win-win in any regeneration process—people taking more control of their lives and communities, and, in this case, having the benefit of the experience to draw from of Merthyr Valleys Homes itself.

These local examples, of course, sit in a wider context of co-operative action. As a Welsh Labour and Co-operative Assembly Member, I'm pleased that our Government supports mutual and co-operative solutions to some of the problems that we face. Indeed, such action formed part of the pledges that we made at the 2016 Assembly elections, and I hope that we build on this in the future. I do see strong links between co-operative and mutual policies, and our policies to drive forward the foundational economy in Wales. I note that the Confederation of Co-operative Housing, for instance, has recently published their findings about '1,001 co-operative and community-led homes' in the UK, and they point to the evidence that, across the country, people and communities are making their own housing and neighbourhood solutions, making sustainable and lasting homes, building resilient and confident local communities, developing skills that they never knew they had. Well, that is my local experience as well. 

So, the final section of my debate is to ask the question: is this the silver bullet to housing need in our communities? Well, the answer to that question, of course, is 'no'. But what I will argue is that supporting and developing a mutual and co-operative approach can be part of the solution—an important part because of some of the factors that I have identified in the debate. It does, however, sit within the set of actions that help to meet housing need in our communities. It sees people taking control of the management of their homes, without the spectre or burden of satisfying the profit need of shareholders. In my experience, it has seen the community strengthened, with both sustainable and caring values moving to the centre of housing solutions. And that's why I will commend such models to the Welsh Government, to this Assembly, and I hope to see mutual and co-operative housing solutions supported in the decade ahead. 

First, I'd like to thank Dawn Bowden for giving me a minute in this debate, and more importantly, for bringing this debate before the Chamber today. People will know that I have been a long-time advocate and great supporter of the growth of co-operative housing. There are three types of co-operative housing: the building co-operatives—Turkey, France, Toronto in Canada; owner co-operatives—Italy, southern and eastern Europe, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Austria, USA, especially in New York, and Israel—and in New York, actually having a co-operative, you can live in some of the most sought-after properties in New York; and renter co-operatives in Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, Ireland, Australia, Austria, USA and Canada.

What sort of numbers are we talking about? Turkey: 25 per cent of the total housing stock, almost 1.5 million units; Sweden: 18 per cent of the stock, almost 0.75 million units. And then we can look at other countries. Norway: 15 per cent, 320,000 units; Germany: 10 per cent of the rental stock, over 2 million units; Austria: 8 per cent of the total stock, almost 0.33 million. We're talking about very large numbers here and it can be done in the rest of the world. It's not a left-wing or right-wing view. In New York, if you told them they were living in left-wing housing in those very expensive co-operatives, they would go potty. They'd be really annoyed, wouldn't they? But, you've really got to understand that it is a method of providing large numbers of housing, which we aren't using in Wales at the moment, and whilst I, as I said earlier, am really a great fan of council housing, we need more housing, and co-operatives are another form of it. Why can't we do the same in Wales as they're doing across the whole of the rest of the world?

Thank you. Can I now call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to reply to the debate? Julie James.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and it's a real pleasure to have the opportunity to talk about the role that co-operative and community-led housing can have in meeting the housing needs of our communities here in Wales. All types of community-led housing, including co-operative housing, can empower Welsh citizens and provide locally driven housing solutions for local communities. I've had the real pleasure of visiting Merthyr Valleys Homes. They've got some really innovative stuff going on, and I was offered the chance to speak to any resident I fancied chatting to over the most delicious cakes and tea, and they were all universal in saying that they loved it. So, you can't really have a much better accolade than that. 

Our top priority is social housing, and I've been very clear here in the Chamber about my commitment to building more social homes in Wales. I know it's a passion we share across the Chamber, and we know that it provides not only quality homes, but the support needed to ensure people can sustain their tenancies and thrive. It positively impacts on health, mental health and education. But we know from the latest housing need figures that we are not building enough social homes. Community-led housing can, and should be part, therefore, of the solution. We know the interest in the sector is not growing as much as we would like here in Wales, and I'm really open to hearing ideas from Members about how we can better generate growth in the sector.

And I think Mike Hedges hit the nail on the head, actually: there's a sort of misapprehension about what it means. But I've actually visited a west side apartment in New York that's a co-operative, and it looked like a penthouse to me, is all I can say. So, I do think there's a misconception—he's quite right about that. What it also does is it allows us to drive different models and types of tenure into our housing across Wales, and that kind of mixed tenure is really important. So, I don't think any set of housing that's a single tenure is actually particularly useful. So, it really is a good way of driving different models of ownership into different bits of Wales and can really be beneficial.

I'm particularly interested, actually, in models that allow people to have a shared equity ownership—part of a co-operative—in places described as 'deprived communities', in inverted commas. Members will have heard me say before how cross I am about the fact that the place I grew up in is described as a 'deprived community', which is news to both me and my parents, but there we go. But, driving different models of ownership into places that are single-tenure social housing, for example, can be a really useful model as well, as it allows different types of people to live in harmony together in a community, which is what we're looking for.

So, we've been investing in community-led housing since 2012. We've tried several different approaches, including providing £1.9 million-worth of capital funding to support three top-down ministerial-led pioneer schemes. That approach has had some success. For example, the co-operative at Loftus Garden in Newport by Pobl has been great; it's helped those in the co-op take on more responsibility for their homes and their community and led to a greater community spirit being fostered in the wider development. That, sadly, has not been the case with all the schemes, which is why we've taken stock of our approach going forward.

I do think the Taf Fechan scheme that Dawn Bowden mentioned is a very good example of how it can work, where you take somewhere that nobody really wanted to live, let's be honest, and turn it into a very desirable place to live, because as I understand it there's a good long list of people who'd love to live there if they could just get in. So, it can, critically, lead to the turnaround of those kinds of developments as well. So, I'm really committed to that, I'm really committed to making sure that the good examples that we do have in Wales—and they do exist—are spread out across Wales, but we do need to get local authority support to be involved in that as well.

Dawn Bowden mentioned the support that the local council there had given to the support of the co-operative, and I know that Swansea City Council has moved to adopt a co-operative housing policy recently as well. So, I think all local authorities can learn from that, and I'd be really keen to get that into the spread of excellent practice across Wales. So, I'm really keen to do that. What I'm also keen to do, though, is not have it to be top-down. So, what we want to do is enable communities to come together and form a co-operative in order to take control over their lives. So, I think it works really well, as you described, Dawn, when people get really involved in it and they can have a decision-making part in that. So, I'm very keen on being able to enable that rather than trying to push it onto communities, which hasn't always been as successful as we'd like, even with the best of intentions.

So, one of the best ways to increase provision is to provide support of that sort. So, our funding through the Wales Co-operative Centre is designed to deliver that support and I'm pleased we've widened our support to a larger scale programme for community-led housing in conjunction with the Nationwide Foundation as well, to provide that underlying level of support.

The expertise available through the Communities Creating Homes programme is being used to support new and existing community-led housing groups across Wales. It's a toolkit for developing co-operative housing schemes that outlines actions that housing associations can take to support community-led housing, and I'm pleased to see that the ELGC committee recognised the important role that the toolkit can have in its recent report on empty properties. The other thing I want to be really clear about is in broadening the support to ensure a focus on embedding the core co-operative principles, we want to be sure that the seven core principles are vital and embedded all at once. So, you can't sort of pick and mix it, you want to get all of the principles, as you've described, to get the successful programme running. So, we've got a lot more interest increasing, and this debate is an excellent way of getting the message out there as well. So, I'm really grateful to Dawn for raising it.

I'm not currently looking at introducing community land trusts at the moment. One of the reasons for that is that I'm not convinced that that would work, but I would just like to say in the Chamber that if a project came forward that relied on that kind of budget, we would be willing to look at it. Broadly, I'm saying we'd be willing to look at any community-led project that we thought might develop homes for people along those co-operative lines. So, I'm very happy to look at that, although I'm not minded to introduce the fund as such just the moment.

The affordable housing supply review reported back in May. Based on their recommendations, we're seeking to consolidate the number of bespoke schemes and funding pots we have available.

Will you take an intervention?

I'm so sorry, Mark; I didn't see you.

I'm sorry, I didn't speak very loudly. I used to work for a building society that’s now part of the Nationwide that you mentioned, and also as a voluntary member of a housing association board. I'm delighted you've brought this forward and emphasised that these are co-operative mutuals, and members pay £1 and they have a vote in their organisation.

The transfer associations you've mentioned have, by and large, adopted the Welsh housing quality standard plus model, which is about people unlocking the strengths and developing sustainability in communities, and that was brought forward by the Chartered Institute of Housing way back in a previous Assembly. In north Wales, Cartrefi Conwy and Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd have adopted this. But how, Minister, can we ensure that that tenant’s voice, that resident’s voice is also heard, and that the WHQS model is applied as a positive in the 11 councils that retained their stock, but where the same issues apply?

I welcome that intervention. I'll just finish the thought I was having, which was basically I'm keen to ensure community-led housing groups can access capital funding of whatever sort. So, if you're aware of groups that want capital funding of that sort, even if we haven't got a bespoke fund, it’s worth getting in touch, because I'm very keen to support them in partnership with an RSL or not, or the local authority or whatever.

On that particular point, actually, I'm looking at domain regulations. So, I've recently said in this Chamber that I'm looking at reviewing the regulatory regime for RSLs, and one of the things that I'm also looking to do there is have what’s called, 'domain regulations', so that’s regulation of tenant participation and voice across social housing. So, that’s not the governance and financial controls, because obviously they're very different in a local authority, but it is the tenant voice, effectively. So, I just reiterate that we are looking at that.

We've also had the Communities Creating Homes programme undertaking independent research into the wider benefits of living in co-operative or community-led housing, and I'm due to launch the findings of that report on 7 November. I look forward to hearing about the wider benefits individuals feel they gain from living in community-led housing associations. I have heard them personally as well in, actually, one of the examples that Dawn talked about. So, I've got no doubt that community-led housing must be a part of the solution to the housing crisis we face in Wales.

I do believe in truly sustainable communities of mixed tenure, where land sites in public and private ownership are used to build the right homes to meet the need that exists. That does mean sites should have a greater proportion of affordable housing than is often the case at the moment, and it also means that it should not be immediately obvious which homes are privately owned and which are affordable homes on one housing development. I cannot say often enough that I do not want to see the kind of division between communities which is neither necessary nor helpful that arises when you corral social housing into one bit of a development.

All types of community-led housing can help us in achieving sustainable communities. We can explore alternative solutions for wider Government priorities. For example, when I met with the Wales Co-operative Centre back in March, I challenged them to explore how community-led housing can be part of an innovative community approach to leaseholder management fees. So, you've mentioned a small part of that in the example you said—it’s gone out of my head. Taf Fechan, wasn't it? And I think community-led housing can also be part of a town-centre-regeneration approach to include mixed-used properties. So, this business about how you control who has what part of the lease can be done on a co-operative basis. And I think that is one of the solutions that we'd like to look at.

So, I'll just conclude by reiterating my call to Members that many of us share the same aspirations for housing in general, and broad support for the co-operative and community-led housing movement in Wales, and I'm very open to working with all Members on this agenda to better support those solutions. Diolch.

Thank you very much. And that brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 19:14.