Item 10 is a debate on the improving outcomes for children annual report, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social services to move the motion—Julie Morgan. 

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Motion NDM7197 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Welcomes the Ministerial Advisory Group’s first Annual Report of the Improving Outcomes for Children programme.

Motion moved.

Diolch. It's a privilege for me to present this annual report to the Assembly today. This is the first report of the improving outcomes for children programme overseen by my ministerial advisory group, so ably chaired by David Melding AM.

I deliberately use the word 'privilege' because I feel passionate about my responsibility for this agenda and I'm sincerely grateful to David for his leadership, strategic direction and his commitment to care-experienced children and young people across Wales. We've both campaigned, with others in this room, for a long time to improve children's rights and I'm delighted that we're still working together to realise this ambition, and so I look forward very much to his contribution to this debate.

And also, importantly, I must thank members of the ministerial advisory group for their commitment to this work. The group benefits from a membership of key service delivery partners who generously provide strategic advice and scrutiny to the work programme. Many members are also actively engaged in delivering our wide-reaching improving outcomes for children programme of work. And I must, of course, thank our key contributors, the children and young people involved in this work. The group is fortunate to have Dan Pitt as its vice-chair. Dan is care-experienced and has freely offered valuable insights into how the system has worked for him and others. 

The annual report describes a significant amount of progress and activity. The challenging programme we have set ourselves is necessary and I'm very appreciative of everyone's contribution. The report responds to an important recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee's inquiry into care-experienced children and young people, which asked for published details of the group's work. I welcome scrutiny of our work and I look forward to any comments or suggestions this report attracts. 

At a recent national peer-learning event last month, I was pleased to launch the improving outcomes for children and ministerial advisory group pages on the Social Care Wales website—

Will you take an intervention, as you mentioned the work of the Public Accounts Committee? And thank you for doing that. As you know, this was a departure for the Public Accounts Committee; it's not the sort of area that we normally look at. But I think, from what I've gathered from speaking to some of the young people who were involved in our inquiry, it's important that the old silos are broken down in this area and that care-experienced children actually affect all portfolios, all aspects of Welsh Government expenditure, and so I hope you agree with me that it's good that other committees, outside of the normal children's committee, look at these issues. 

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I thank Nick Ramsay for that intervention and I absolutely agree with him. Care-experienced children are the responsibility of all departments and I think we're very keen to be as public and open in what we're doing as a result of his committee's report, and we really welcome the scrutiny, so I thank him for that. 

I'm sure you've read the report, but here are a few highlights: our establishment of edge-of-care services in every local authority in Wales; our rolling out of the Reflect programme across Wales, emotionally and practically supporting parents who have had a child placed into care—I think that is one of the most effective initiatives that we have taken; an introduction of legislation to exempt all care leavers from paying council tax; and our establishment of the St David's Day fund to help provide support to young people leaving care as they transition towards adulthood and independence. 

We piloted the Bright Spots survey to discover what matters to care-experienced children and to help influence improvements in the way services are delivered. This survey provided a valuable insight and we are now, as part of the new performance and improvement framework for local authorities, looking to introduce a new approach to the citizen survey. The survey will gather a range of views from children on their experiences of care and support, and will ensure that children's views are actively sought and used by local authorities to inform improvement and change.

We've also identified a range of research to address gaps in the evidence around care-experienced children and young people. In December, we will be publishing an important piece of research about the number of children placed into care from parents with a learning disability.

I'm also pleased to report we're progressing a programme of work around corporate parenting, which David is leading. This is about strengthening responsibilities for children looked after across all public services. My Cabinet colleagues will remember a recent discussion at Cabinet about what we're taking forward, and I was very grateful for the cross-Government support received. I will keep Members updated as this work progresses.

All too often, we hear about the unmet need of children with very complex and challenging behaviours. I'm pleased that the children's residential care task and finish group, a sub-group of the ministerial advisory group, has been considering how best to develop capacity to meet the needs of these children. At the advice of the task and finish group, we're about to begin a focused piece of work on developing options for the small cohort of children whose needs cannot be met solely in in-patient mental health or other types of secure accommodation. 

Even in this very challenging financial climate, we continue to make significant investment into improving outcomes for children. Most recently, we have increased the integrated care fund by £15 million. This is a ring-fenced annual allocation for services that support children at the edge of care to prevent them from becoming looked-after, as well as projects to provide support for children who are care experienced and/or adopted. This is in addition to the £659 million spend overall on children and families services by local authorities.

So, I am pleased with the progress we are making, but I'm not complacent. Our recently published statistics show us that the number of children looked after by local authorities is still increasing. In 2018-19, the number rose by a further 7 per cent, taking it to 6,846. This is something we are actively working to address, and I'll say more about that shortly. But, there is a note of optimism. It's important to note that, for the second year running, the number of children starting to become looked-after has decreased. I'm hoping that we're now beginning to see the results of the investment in our prevention and early intervention services, and all the work of the group that David is chairing. I want this trend to continue—this downward trend. To do this, we are working with local authorities and other partners to make whole-system improvements so that services are delivered that provide timely and early help to families so that, wherever possible, they are supported to stay together.

You'll all be aware of the First Minister's clear commitment to reducing the number of children removed from their families, being placed out of county and out of Wales, and removed from parents with a learning disability. We've been working hard to deliver this by working closely with every local authority to develop plans to achieve the First Minister's priorities. From the outset, and throughout this journey, I've been absolutely clear that we take a safety-first approach here in Wales—nothing overrides the need to protect children.

All local authorities have submitted reduction expectation plans tailored to their own populations and demography, and we are in the process of receiving the first quarterly updates. I am actively supporting this work by holding conversations with partners who are key contributors and can influence a whole-system approach, for example, Mr Justice Francis, the family liaison judge for Wales; the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru; and some council leaders. We're having very productive discussions with those people.

The recent national learning and peer support event I mentioned earlier provided a valuable opportunity for local authorities and key partners to come together and share their knowledge and experience in relation to looked-after children, including the good practice in those authorities that have managed to buck the general trend and reduce the numbers of children looked after over time. There is an opportunity to continue this peer-learning arrangement. And alongside our local government partners, we're looking to establish a more formal peer-support network to take this work forward. Attending this conference, I was absolutely struck by the buzz of enthusiasm and determination about those people in the room to do their best for the children that we have the privilege to be looking after. 

Before we start the debate, I wanted to say something about the amendments, which I'm very pleased to accept. Rhun ap Iorwerth's amendments make very important points about poverty and austerity, rebalancing the system in favour of a preventative approach and targets. I think there is a wealth of evidence that shows the impact that poverty and austerity have on children and families. But we also know that the numbers of children in care have been rising for at least 10 years before austerity began, so there are other factors too, such as variations between local authorities in policy and practice.

The work we are taking forward with local authorities and key partners is designed to help develop practice and facilitate the sharing of learning, so that we can meet our shared objectives of safely reducing the numbers of children in care.

In terms of the system, our whole legislative framework and the guiding principles of the improving outcomes for children programme is about shifting the balance of care towards an early intervention and preventative approach. The First Minister has said—and I'm sure we'll agree—that we should prioritise repair rather than rescue. We've seen, for two years running now, as I said earlier, a decrease in the numbers of children starting to become looked-after, which we can link to the investment we have made in early intervention and prevention services.

And finally, on targets, I'm very pleased to say that we have worked in a co-productive way with local authorities and key partners. Rather than Welsh Government imposing binding targets, local authorities have proposed their own specific bespoke strategies, and there are no plans for punitive action if the targets proposed are not met. I've made this clear to local authorities from the beginning. I think it's also important to note that the Children's Commissioner for Wales has recently acknowledged that she is supportive of the Welsh Government's approach in designing and delivering this work, and she has recognised our safety-first approach. So, I am pleased to accept the three amendments put forward by Plaid Cymru. Thank you. 

I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on Siân Gwenllian to move all three amendments, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Acknowledges that the increase in the number of children taken into care is the result of a number of complex factors, including intergenerational poverty and austerity.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls for the re-engineering of the system to focus resources on prevention to protect children and improve their outcomes.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to avoid the use of binding targets to reduce the number of children taken into care.

Amendments 1, 2 and 3 moved.

Thank you very much. I warmly welcome the publication of this first annual report. When I was a county councillor, I had the privilege of chairing a corporate parent panel for Gwynedd Council, and I clearly remember the detailed responsibilities on county councillors to take action for the benefit of children in care in accordance with training as if it were my own child, and there is a duty on all of us as Assembly Members to do likewise—to think about the needs of every child in care, to put the needs of the child at the heart of everything that we do and to ensure that their voices are heard.

The numbers have increased significantly and the picture has changed since my time in Gwynedd Council. According to professionals in this area, there has been a substantial change in the needs as a result of years of poverty, as a result of austerity and other social changes and new issues that are emerging. For example, county lines, problematic and inappropriate sexual behaviour, the use of social media, online abuse and so on and so forth. Historically, these weren’t prominent factors, but they are now.

The main issues leading to teenagers entering care arise because of often dangerous behaviour, young people going missing, the misuse of alcohol and drugs, behavioural problems and self-harming. The main factor is complex needs as a result of emotional and mental health problems that usually don’t reach the criteria to receive CAMHS services. And the main challenge in these cases is to find appropriate settings for these young people that meet their complex needs and keep them safe.

Issues around parenting are another prominent reason. Parenting skills can be compromised because of mental health problems among parents, the misuse of alcohol and drugs, and children witnessing violence in their homes, where there is a history of sexual abuse. There’s been a year-on-year increase in the number of pre-birth cases that are referred to authorities, often because mothers have children who are already in care, because of issues of neglect, abuse, alcohol and drug abuse, domestic violence and the situation may not have changed or they may have moved to another relationship where the same factors are an issue. Very often, and in most cases, it isn't just one of these factors that is a cause for concern in terms of child safety and welfare, but a combination of factors. I do think it’s important that we recognise this picture and that we take account of how this picture is increasingly changing.

As you mentioned, the Welsh Government has asked local authorities the length and breadth of Wales to create plans to reduce the number of children in care, and those plans are to be welcomed. They can provide a focus for services whilst identifying the changes that have happened. And as you know and as you've made reference to already, these plans do set raw numerical targets. I'm not entirely sure if this afternoon you're saying that the targets set for local authorities will disappear, or whether it'll be the national target that will be abolished. I assume from what you say that there will still be a need for local authorities to set targets, and I would like some clarity on that. I do think that setting numerical targets is a dangerous mis-step. This isn't the way to reduce the number of children in care.

Reducing the number requires comprehensive solutions. There may be changes to legislation required; we need to look at the courts process; we need to look at how kindship care is different in Scotland to the situation in Wales; we need to look at placements with parents where a child can live at home with the parent with a care order and with support, but in some areas the courts are reluctant to agree to that.

Certainly, we need major investment in preventative services. Short-term grants aren't going to be adequate to support those services. So, I do welcome what you've said and what the report says, namely that we need to make whole-system improvements in order to provide timely and early services for families so that they are supported to stay together with the ultimate aim of reducing the number of children in the care system. But we must do that in a planned long-term way that is careful and systematic, and we must bear in mind above all else the needs and the safety of the child, as if it were my own child. Thank you.

Can I start by thanking the Minister for her leadership and work and her kind references to me as chair of the ministerial advisory group? But can I also then formally tell Members that I have that interest as we're debating the first annual report? I'm delighted that we do have an annual report and also a website. It was a key recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee that we should be more public-facing and I'm really pleased they've taken an interest in our work—very helpful—and in terms of accountability and transparency, it's a definite improvement, including some really important data, which I will refer to in a moment.

The ministerial advisory group is more like a conference, frankly. There are between 40 and 50 members. I'm not quite sure how many we have at each meeting, although it usually seems quite packed and it's difficult to peer at the end of the conference table to see all the members. But what's amazing is how the members work together. They don't idly repeat points or just get in and speak for the sake of it. It works as a team despite being large to encompass the whole community, then, involved in providing care for looked-after children.

I'm really grateful to the members for the work they put in, particularly those from the various voluntary and charitable groups. I'm very grateful to Dan Pitt from Voices from Care, who is the vice-chair and brings that insight of a care-experienced person; and also Phil Evans, former director of social services, who is the chief engineer in the engine room, I think, and has done immense, immense work; and outstanding officials in your department, Julie, who have provided such able advice and really produced quality outputs as a commission requested by the ministerial advisory group members.

If I look at safely reducing the numbers of children in care, the Minister's already given the figures, and we've heard from Siân the range of factors that affect this, but the number has gone up, and it's not always clear why that number is increasing. Deprivation; triggers like domestic abuse—and I should say on White Ribbon Day, it's a really important factor and it's something that needs to be remembered—the influence of ACEs, but there are also policy differences and differences in practice, not only in local authorities but in the courts also, which has a big impact on the numbers we being taken into care, though that incidence is now starting to reduce, but the cumulative figure is still going up. But as the Minister said, it is important to note that the incidence has started to decline.

The Thomas commission, I think, made some really interesting remarks on family justice, and we need to reflect on that. But, do you know, at the end of the day, it's the local authority that goes to court and requests a court order, or care order? So, we can't just say it's a problem with the family courts, though, clearly, they do oversee this practice in different ways in different parts of Wales.

One of the things that we've done to really try to understand these differences between local authorities is conduct an appreciative inquiry. So, we went into six local authorities and really examined what they were doing to reduce numbers and preventative services, edge-of-care services. We've had some really valuable lessons there.

If I turn to what we really need to achieve, we've always known that high-quality placements are key to successful services. Stable placements close to home are really, really important, but as our data shows in the annual report, those experiencing three or more placements in 2017-18, that was 9.6 per cent of children, and this year 9.2 per cent are getting three or more placements. That's really not acceptable and we need to ensure that that figure comes down.

If we look at educational attainment at key stage 2, the indicator is met by 60.2 per cent of children, or was last year. This year, that's gone down a little bit to 58.3. But at key stage 4, when we're often dealing with children with more complicated needs, sometimes, and also they may have come into the system later, so there are many other pressures on achieving good outcomes, but that indicator is really not good at all. Those achieving it last year, 9.5 per cent, and this year, a little improvement to 10.9 per cent. So, that's a reminder.

If I look at NEETs, those who are NEET after 12 months, after leaving care, last year, 48.6 per cent, this year 46.5 per cent. So, again, a very large figure. Local authorities have improved their practice in becoming more like the family business and ensuring that they can provide a lot of the opportunities for their care leavers, and that's really, really useful.

And we're also looking at housing. The number of care-experienced young people who have experienced some homelessness in the last year was 11.5 per cent. So, that's really problematic.

I don't have long enough to look at the other areas of the work other than to say I'm really looking forward to the task and finish group on corporate parenting. One of our tasks is to come up with a more humane, loving—as Dan Pitt, our vice-chair would say—term than 'corporate parenting'. So, if anyone's got ideas, please drop them to me in an e-mail. And there have been many innovations as well. Siân mentioned kinship caring. We'll really look at this important area. New adoption registers being launched, implementing the strategy on a national fostering framework, and our foster carers are so important. And the THRIVE report looking at emotional and mental health support. So, lots of things being done, much to do.

But let me finish with this stat: 71 per cent of care-experienced children report that they had positive outcomes of their care, and that's very important for us to remember. It's nearly 20 years since Sir Ronald Waterhouse's report 'Lost in Care' was published, and we will have a conference in the Pierhead the day before the general election to commemorate that report and a few of us in the Chamber remember the days when we were on the Health and Social Care Committee in that first Assembly, the first months of our work looking at that report. We must ensure that no-one is lost in care, and it's my privilege to have been asked, as an opposition Member, to chair the ministerial advisory group, and I thank the Government for the opportunity they've given me and the constructive way in which they've worked with the ministerial advisory group. Thank you, Llywydd.

I'm very pleased to be able to rise to make a very short contribution to this debate. Siân Gwenllian has already set out the case for our amendments, and I'm extremely grateful to the Deputy Minister for accepting them, though, like Siân, I would like a little bit more clarity about what exactly that means in terms of numerical targets.

I know how passionate the Deputy Minister is about this cause. We've got form, going back to the time when we both worked for Barnardo's, and I was particularly glad to see her being given this responsibility. I'd associate myself with the comments that she's made about David Melding and his commitments. David referred, of course, to our days scrutinising the aftermath of the Waterhouse report. I think it was a very difficult time for all of us, hearing things that we did not want to hear and acting on them. This report, I think, which I'm very pleased to welcome, shows how far we've come, but it also illustrates how far we still have to go.

I'd like to make three very brief comments, and, first of all, I'd like to ask the Deputy Minister how she ensures that all the work in this area takes a rights-based approach, right the way through the whole system, because much of what sometimes does go wrong can be avoided if we understand that these children and young people are the holders of rights. We have a groundbreaking piece of legislation here, the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, though I think there are some of us that would like to see it amended and strengthened. I'd like to hear from the Minister today how she ensures that all of those dealing with these children are clear about what that rights-based approach means. From myself, I have some casework and some anecdotal evidence that suggests that that isn't, perhaps, always the case, that there are still some difficulties, for example, with the way that CAFCASS officers work with young people in these situations. So, I'd be grateful for some reassurance on that issue.

To come back briefly to our amendment 3, I was very glad to hear the Minister say that there would be no punitive measures for local authorities that don't meet their agreed targets. Now, the Deputy Minister knows that I've been very concerned about the nature of some of the discussions between her officials and some local authorities; they perhaps haven't always been as consensual as she would like them to be. But I'm very glad to hear from her today that, obviously, the agenda has moved on, that things are much more positive.

But I am still concerned that if you put a number on anything, it's easy to deliver. It's much easier to deliver a number than it is to deliver a qualitative measurement. I would just like to urge the Minister today to ensure that there are no inappropriate pressures being put on local authorities to meet the target and, in the context of our amendment 2, to ensure that we do have that long-term re-engineering of resources towards the preventative agenda that I know we all support.

Finally, I was very glad to hear from David Melding about progress on the corporate parenting agenda. I agree with him, it is a fairly hideous term. I think we can all put our thinking caps on and see if we can come up with something better. But I'm pleased to hear the work is progressing, and I hope that this can be accelerated with a view to creating a comprehensive, wide-ranging legislative framework that takes corporate parenting outside local authorities alone—or whatever we decide to call it when we come up with something better—and gives it real legislative teeth. Because while I'm sure, across this Chamber, there is a broad consensus about the importance of the work that we do to support our looked-after children, as Siân says, they're our children too—ein plant ni—that isn't always the case everywhere. This doesn't always get to the top of people's agendas, and, sometimes, we will need that legislative framework to ensure that there is no difference between the rights of a looked-after child in one part of Wales and the rights of a looked-after child in another.

I think it would be fair to say that, in the last 20 years, Wales has been responsible for some groundbreaking work around the rights of looked-after children, but, as David and the Deputy Minister have both said, there is still much to do, and I look forward to working with colleagues across this Chamber and at the local level to ensure that that agenda is progressed.

Wales, of course, has the highest number of looked-after children on record. There were 6,845 children as of 31 March this year, a 65 per cent increase since 2003. The change has been even more extreme in some particular local authorities such as Anglesey, seeing a 190 per cent increase, Torfaen 195 per cent, and Monmouthshire 250 per cent. Moreover, Cardiff had 380 more looked-after children to care for this year, highlighting what continues to be a worrying trend in our communities. So, it comes as no surprise, therefore, Deputy Minister, that I certainly thank you for the report and the opportunity for us to debate this.

This brings me to the first priority—safely reducing the number of children in need of care. It is noted that, despite reports having researched the cause of increased numbers of children in care, these numbers continue to rise. It is too early to say that this is despite the First Minister's reduction in expectations. In July the Deputy Minister made a statement advising that only 16 local authorities had set targets to reduce their looked-after population. So, I wonder whether the other authorities have yet set their own targets.

I do appreciate the positive ambition, but at present I doubt that it will be achieved. Reductions must be secured safely, so I do welcome the reinforcement of moves towards the prevention and intervention agenda. Fifteen million pounds has been allocated to expanding these preventative and intervention services via the integrated care fund. Now, according to the Wales Audit Office, the fund's overall impact in improving outcomes for service users remains unclear, so I would appreciate some assurances today that the money is not being prevented from achieving its positive ambition. Indeed, I agree that there needs to be an agenda that is definitely more focused on prevention. Only last week I did call for the founding of family drug and alcohol courts here to help solve problems in families at risk of losing their children.

We also do need more support for children's services, i.e. our departments, who have some fantastic people working on the front line, wanting to support families and wanting to support these children. For example, my own authority, Conwy Country Borough Council, has seen a 23 per cent increase in the number of looked-after children since 2016, and social services departments are set to have a £2.25 million overspend this financial year. In the short term, local authorities like Conwy deserve emergency financial support where an additional financial strain caused by the increasing number and complexity of cases can actually be proven.

Support for looked-after children is also provided by schools. However, sadly the percentage of children achieving the core subject indicator at key stage 2 fell to 58.3 per cent in 2018-19. We have the pupil development grant for the remainder of the Assembly term, but I suppose the question I would have is we do need to see how effective this is in helping with this combined agenda. The 'School Funding in Wales' report found that the PDG had actually, in some instances, been used to top up and bolster core funding. That cannot be right. Similarly, it is noted that £15 million has been provided to develop therapeutic services, but how much of a difference is this making? Almost 100 children from north Wales have been sent out of the region for mental health treatment in the last four years. The report identifies that it is difficult to access the right help at the right time because of thresholds to specialist services, so I would like to see some progress, working with the Deputy Minister on this. Likewise, we need positive change on the alarming finding that it is becoming more difficult to match children to appropriate placements: 9.2 per cent of children had three or more placements in 2018-19.

It is now a year since the Public Accounts Committee recommended a national strategic approach to commissioning placements. So, it is time for us to actually deliver this. Certainly, I welcome the report before us today, and the good work it outlines, but hope to have shown that more needs to be done to ensure that we safely prevent. We want to see all intended support reach our looked-after children and we all need to do more to help the front-line services we so heavily rely on to help our young people in care. Thank you.

I generally support the Government's position on this, and what the First Minister said, and the thrust of the report as well, but we need actions, rather than words. If you look at page 20 of the report, it talks about a lack of crisis provision. Well, how can there be a lack of crisis provision after 20 years of a Labour Government here? On page 6, it says that young people are not being listened to.

I have reports that some children have been threatened that if they try to go back to their parents, they will be moved out of county—'Look what happened to your brother, that will happen to you, unless you behave yourself.' That's feedback from one family, and everything they've told me has happened to be completely correct as well.

One in four children want more contact with their parents. Why are they not getting it? Why is the emotional harm caused to those children by not seeing their parents not taken into account? Why are social workers behaving like big brother, almost—some social workers, not all—in preventing contact when children desperately want it? Why are one in three children complaining about too little time with siblings when children in some cases are wrongly taken, wrongly split apart by this broken system? These kind of reports do not address matters. Children's services should be turned upside down. There should be root and branch reform—absolute reform from top to bottom.

What happens to these children after the age of 18? What are the actual outcomes? And why is there—? Again, we're back to children not being listened to. There's a child in care who alleged abuse, and I've had a lot of problems because I've been supporting that child and the child's family. So much so, I'm before the ombudsman again as a councillor. I'll declare an interest there. So, instead of the allegations of abuse being looked into, it's easier to complain about the councillor making a fuss. And that's what's happening in this city. It's happening to me. And God knows what's happened to that child.

Because, do you know what, I'll say this in our National Parliament: I've been trying to get a meeting with the senior officer of South Wales Police since last July. We've been in correspondence, I've written to the chief constable. A child is alleging abuse, I do a welfare call-out, and I'm told the police turn up at 2 a.m., get the kid out of bed, with the alleged abuser still on site. Outrageous. And I cannot meet with these people. It's broken—the system is broken. And whoever stands in the police commissioner elections next year—these are issues that I'll be pushing in that campaign.

I want to talk about, finally now—there's a lot of support in this Chamber for the rights of women. Well, I'm asking now: what about the rights of mothers as well as these children? The amount of parents, the amount of mothers that I've met and sat with and spoken to who have been absolutely destroyed by the system. They've had their children taken away, they've had their children adopted, brothers and sisters have been split up. There's a Catholic woman that I know who had an abortion because her new child was going to be taken into care. I'll tell you what, all that mother needs is support—support. There's another mother that I met with a couple of week ago—we had a chat, we had a conversation, and she was clearly suffering from PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, through losing her child. And do you know what? No counselling for the mother, no support. 'Lost a child? Off you go.' Outrageous.

So, as well as discussing taking fewer children into care, which I fully support—I fully support the Government's direction in this, except I want to see results and actions—let's put a plug in as well for these mothers who lose their children, in my view, in some circumstances, unjustly, because they just need support. They should maybe appear in this report and they should get the support from the system, which they're not getting, because if they had that, we'd all have better outcomes for our society in future.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate—Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much, and thank you very much, everyone, for the contributions that you've made. I know we're all driven to do as much as we possibly can to support children and young people to remain safely with their families, and where that is not possible, to have a positive experience of the care system. I hope you all agree that the annual report is clear in its account of all we've achieved, and it provides a good narrative about what we're doing next.

Now, to answer some of the particular queries that have arisen, on the issue of targets, which we have raised here several times, all local authorities are committed to reducing the number of children in their care. Four have not produced a numerical target, but all are committed to the First Minister's agenda and they want fewer children in care. I want to emphasise again that we are going for a safety-first approach, and I can't really reiterate that too much—that we would not want anyone to take any action that wasn't in the best interests of the child, and all the local authorities know that, and they have themselves come forward with the figures. So, we are not having binding targets—to answer the specific questions from the Plaid Members—we are not having binding targets; we are working co-productively with the local authorities, the local authorities are producing the targets, there are no sanctions, and we are trying to work together to move this agenda forward because we have had numerous reports, we've been trying to address this policy, these issues, for many years, and we haven't had any results. In fact, things have got worse, and I think we've heard today how the numbers are rising. So, it is absolutely essential that we address this agenda, and that is what we are doing, in a co-productive way. So, I hope that answers the queries, and, of course, we are accepting the amendments.

Then the other issue, of course, is we want fewer children to come into care. We are moving to put as much support as we can into prevention, and that has been raised here several times today. The rights-based approach—we are totally committed to a rights-based approach, and that is something that we will continue to work towards. I know that on the ministerial advisory group, the rights-based approach is used in order to ensure that we approach all our work in that sort of way, so I want to reiterate that we are using rights-based measures.

I know that what Lord Thomas says is extremely interesting in terms of his discussions about children, and I know that Janet Finch-Saunders raised the issue of drug and alcohol courts, which he has raised, and that is something that we will look at and we will discuss again, but his proposals are something that we really do welcome, and we will be looking at.

So, in conclusion I want to end, really, by thanking David for all the work that has been done on that group, and to thank him for telling the Chamber the sort of issues that you are addressing. David's work is based on listening to children, and I think those issues have come up about children's involvement. I was really pleased that, last week, on 20 November, we were able to celebrate the 30 years anniversary of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and we did that by listening to what young people said, and by young people joining in and discussing and saying what they wanted. I think that was a really great example of making sure that young people's voices were heard. So, we don't want anybody lost in care, and we want everyone to think of another word other than 'corporate parenting'. So, thank you very much.

The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I therefore postpone the vote on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.