Item 7 on our agenda is a debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report, 'Access to Banking', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Russell George. 

Motion NDM7219 Russell George

The National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee on its Inquiry into: Access to Banking which was laid in the Table Office on 17 October 2019.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in my name. 

This inquiry was partly prompted by the alarming figures from the consumer group Which? about the rate of bank closures, and the difficulties people have in accessing cash. There have been many questions and debates in this Chamber about bank closures, but we wanted to understand the impact on individual businesses and communities in our piece of work.

Approximately one third of people who responded to our online survey said that they had to travel an extra hour to access a bank, and, for 13 per cent, it was over an hour. Older people and vulnerable customers, such as those with autism or dementia, find it hard to safely manage their finances. Welsh speakers increasingly cannot access services in their language of choice. And we found that Wales is doubly disadvantaged because online banking is not a viable alternative for many people, either because of a lack of connectivity, or for other reasons. And the impact on businesses is severe. It is harder to deposit takings for smaller businesses, they have to close earlier to do their banking, it’s harder to get loans, bank closures affect footfall, and tourism and other businesses suffer because visitors can't access cash. So, we heard some real horror stories about towns running out of cash. And we know that Wales certainly isn't ready to go cashless—too many people will be left behind and financially excluded. LINK, the UK's largest cash machine network, told us that free access to cash for consumers is a vital national service.

Chapter 5 of our report highlighted the particular challenges Wales faces with digital connectivity. And the Welsh Government's response to our report was largely positive. Clearly, some areas are not devolved, but some policy levers are reserved—or rather aren't reserved—but there are levers that the Welsh Government has at its disposal. The response to recommendation 8 was that the Welsh Government should map the gaps in banking services in Wales, and it suggests some early work is being done in this area. So, I think that is extremely encouraging.

We heard a lot during the inquiry about the JACS group, the Joint Authorities Cash Strategy Group, led by HM Treasury. For Members who are unfamiliar with that, or what that means, this brings together the regulators of access to cash to implement the recommendations made by the independent access to cash review. And the review warned that the UK must not sleepwalk into a cashless society. The committee wants the Welsh Government to work with JACS to ensure that Welsh needs are met, but the extent of engagement is not clear from the response from the Government. It says that it

'will require JACS to establish clear channels of communication, including regular and suitably frequent opportunities for effective engagement.'

JACS was set up in May, so it would be, I think, very helpful to know how soon the Minister expects those channels to be opened up, and how confident the Minister is that JACS will be effective.

We have seen some positive moves, such as LINK's recent announcement of a delivery fund, where communities can directly request an ATM in their area. But this, of course, puts the responsibility onto communities themselves. The so-called high-street banks, which have largely disappeared from our high streets, don't deny that branch closures are impacting on customers, but they seem to be entirely focused on digital innovation, not recognising the huge number of people who are digitally excluded. And a Which? report two weeks ago said that one in five adults don't feel confident in their ability to check their balance online.

So, some banks have tried to replace branches with mobile vans—this is where I often get confused, because mobile banking can be mobile vans or mobile technology, but this is mobile vans—but we found these generally to be inadequate. And the Post Office network is held up as the alternative provider, but it doesn't really offer the same level of service, and has other disadvantages. We were troubled by the lack of awareness about Post Office banking services, so we do want to see more action to publicise them. The Welsh Government response points out that Post Office matters are not devolved, and it has no plans to reintroduce support for the network in Wales that it once did deliver. It also says that—

Will you take a brief intervention?

Yes, absolutely.

Just to recall, from the evidence we received, would he also remember that, when we were talking of post office branches, one of the pieces of evidence we received was that post office branches are particularly unsuitable for small and particularly micro business activity? It was one of the things that we were told. 

Yes, I do recall that and it's a valid point to make. I think that there are issues with the Post Office not being able to provide the full service for businesses that banks can, even if it's to access cash or change, for example, where notice has to be given in advance, amongst other issues as well. But, no, the point is well made by Hefin David. 

Our inquiry did also focus on the First Minister's ambitious manifesto commitment—and it was ambitious—to support the creation of a community bank in Wales before the 2021 Assembly elections. So, we did hear lots of scepticism about the feasibility of Banc Cambria's community banking proposal, and it really was quite a bit of scepticism indeed. So, our report reflects that evidence. The current banking service model is clearly failing, and there are compelling arguments, I think and the committee thinks, in favour of a new approach. But the community banking model is untested. I think that's the key here: that model is untested. 

A key concern for the committee is how the Welsh Government intends to manage the long-term risks associated with its financial support to Banc Cambria, and I'm not—and neither is the committee, I don't think—convinced that the Government's response fully answers that question. Obviously, there are commercial sensitivities and Banc Cambria needs time to get through the licensing process, but we'll need to keep a close eye on developments. The Welsh Government says that it's considering the potential impact that Banc Cambria may have on credit unions and the Post Office network. The recognition that there must be no duplication or negative impact on existing service provision I think is very important, and the planned stakeholder engagement plan is welcomed.

We also called for other partnership ideas to be actively pursued and, although it’s disappointing that recommendation 14 was only accepted in principle, it does sound as if the Welsh Government is open to other opportunities to improve banking provision. It's important to continue to explore all avenues, especially as it’s still not clear how Banc Cambria can meet the needs of older people, disabled and vulnerable customers who need appropriate, face-to-face services.

The response to our recommendation 10, on action to support digital inclusion, is also positive, and in particular Welsh Government plans to support teachers delivering financial education to the younger generation so they can become financially literate citizens as well I think is very welcome. This is a hugely complex policy area, where Welsh Government has to work hard with the levers at its disposal. Our inquiry was only able to scratch the surface, but hopefully we have shone a light on the difficulties that people in Wales face in terms of accessing banking and banking services.

So, I do look forward to hearing the views of colleagues on committee and others and the Minister and I, of course, commend this report to the Assembly, Deputy Presiding Officer.

One of the motivations for us involving ourselves in this inquiry is that we've all seen bank branches close. I want to stand up for communities like Nelson, which saw a Barclays close; Ystrad Mynach, which saw a Nat West; and Bargoed, the northern-most community in my constituency, the one that is most in need of town-centre growth, saw both HSBC and recently, this year, at the end of this year, Lloyds Bank leave the community. So, we feel strongly motivated to address this issue cross-party and see Welsh Government take action. 

I'd like to come to a few recommendations and welcome particularly recommendation 2 and the fact that the Government has accepted it. Russell George has already made reference to the fact that the Welsh Government works with LINK and the regulators to strengthen support to existing free-to-use ATM services. With a cash crisis likely in the future, these free-to-use services are vital in those communities in the northern valleys, particularly, that I represent, and I've already made reference to Bargoed. So, the financial inclusion strategy, and its accompanying delivery plan must, therefore, be reviewed regularly to ensure that that issue is addressed.

I'd like to make a brief reference to recommendation 6, which makes reference to the JACS group, which we actually found out about through the course of our inquiry. Am I right, Chair, in saying that that happened through the course of the inquiry—that we found out about the work of the UK JACS group? And we were asking whether the access to banking standard is sufficiently robust. I was a bit disappointed with the Welsh Government's answer, when they said,

'While supporting the principle set out in the recommendation, the Welsh Government cannot accept, as this is a matter for the UK Government.'

Well, we could have a different UK Government that might take a different view in a few weeks, or we could have the same Government that is taking the same approach. Either way, I'd like to see—and I know that it isn't typically a campaigning role that the Welsh Government takes—the Welsh Government pushing this issue very hard with the UK Government, regardless of who that may be.

Recommendation 7 talks about the Welsh Government reviewing its support for the post office network to expand the banking sector. The Minister has decided to accept this only in part, and says, 

'There are no plans to reintroduce support for the Post Office Network in Wales.'

I was disappointed, because in 2003-2004, Bargoed post office benefited from nearly £37,000 thanks to the Welsh Government's old post office development fund, and this secured the post office in Bargoed for the future. And one of the things that I found was an evaluation that the old Welsh Assembly Government took of the post office development fund, which said that eight post offices were kept open precisely because of that fund. So, Minister, I'm putting a direct question to you: do you not believe that the post office development fund would be important in sustaining the future of post offices where banks are leaving?

And, finally, I want to come to the community bank. We've spent a great deal of time—and you can see in recommendations 13 and 14—looking around this idea of a community bank. It was in the early days of the Drakeford administration, and Banc Cambria were vying then for £600,000 of Welsh Government money to carry out feasibility work, which they subsequently received and are now in the process of establishing themselves as a bank. We had those questions that Russell George has mentioned: what about the impact on things like credit unions? How will credit unions work with a community bank? How will the post office network work with a community bank? But also, questions that I've got about place and provision: what will they look like in communities—what will a community bank look like?

Well, the Welsh Government's made an outlay and now we need to see what strategy the Welsh Government has to support that in the future. A community bank in every town sounds like a fine idea, but do we have the places and the demand to make that work? It is down to the community bank to make it happen, but it was also in the First Minister's leadership manifesto—[Interruption.] Yes.

You make a welcome reference to post offices. Of course, I remember the introduction of the fund you referred to, but we didn't then have the post office banking framework agreement between the post office and 28 banks, providing access to services on the high street where they have a branch. Do you agree that we should also be encouraging, where practical, the Welsh Government to be working with that framework so that they can support our local post office branches?

Yes. I need to take a couple of steps back in what I was saying then, to go back to that point. Funnily enough, in the report that the Welsh Government did evaluating that framework, they actually made that very point—that they're waiting to see how that would pan out before making further recommendations about the fund. So, yes, I think it is timely that we examine how that provision can be enhanced. So, yes, I agree that it is, within that context, trying to do that. However, there are also funding constraints that wouldn't have been present when that fund was evaluated. So, I'd be interested to hear from the Minister what he has to say.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I went backwards in my speech, and now I'm kind of—. I had a wonderful peroration, but unfortunately, Mark Isherwood has taken me off track a little bit. I shall finish by saying—rather than the wonderful ending I had—I shall finish by saying—

Go on with your wonderful ending—it's Christmas, go on. [Laughter.]

—that this is one of the most enjoyable reports I've been involved with and it's timely that it's being delivered at this point in the term to finish off constructively this term. Happy Christmas, Dirprwy Lywydd, to you and to everyone else in this Chamber.

There is a growing concern about the number and the rate of bank closures in Wales, as earlier mentioned. It is a worrying fact that Wales lost more than 40 per cent of its banking branches in five years. Wales is on the top table of bank closures in the United Kingdom; not less than 239 branches closed between January 2015 and August 2019. There are only two branches in Newport East, where I come from, where my office is, and people actually have a really hard time there when they draw money or they put money in, especially senior citizens. Some parts of Wales have fared much worse, losing 85 per cent of their banks since 2015. This alarming rate of closures risks shutting many people out of vital financial services and affects their ability to access their own cash. The decline in the number of free-to-use cash machines has meant more people being forced to use free banking cash points to withdraw their own money.

Between January 2018 and May 2019, the number of free-to-use cash machines in Wales fell by nearly 11 per cent. The consumer group Which? said its analysis showed that the poorer communities were hit hardest by closures than the more affluent ones—people living in poorer communities, those most reliant on cash, they can least afford to pay for withdrawals, but face being forced to travel to access money without charge. Pensioners are particularly badly affected by bank closures. Wales has the highest proportion of older people in the United Kingdom, with a fifth of the population aged 65 or over.

Whilst many people are used to managing their money online and paying for goods with plastic cards, older people are used to more traditional methods of paying for goods and services by cheques or cards. Less than half of the people aged 75 or over in Wales were internet users in 2018 and 2019, thus accelerating closures of bank branches and free-to-use cash point transactions to deprive our senior citizens of banking services and access to the cash, that, in fact, is their own.

It is clear, therefore, that bank closures have a profound economic and social impact on communities in Wales. The communities recognise that the bank is a reserved matter, but the Welsh Government does have some policy levers it can utilise in conjunction with using its influence with regulators and the UK Government to bring about the change. This report makes 14 recommendations to try to bring about the change we wish to see. I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted 12 of those recommendations, some in full, others in principle or in part. One aspect of this matter where the Welsh Government does have the power to make a difference is community banking that was just earlier mentioned.

Last January, the finance Minister stated that very early-stage discussions were taking place with a number of stakeholders who were keen to explore the feasibility of establishing a community bank in Wales. In August, the Minister for Economy and Transport approved the proposal to provide initial-phase funding to support this proposal. The Welsh Government must ensure due diligence is applied to this process to ensure that this untested community savings bank model meets the need for face-to-face banking services in Wales. It is essential, Deputy Presiding Officer, also, that this proposal should not have an adverse impact on the credit unions. Access to banking is a complex subject area, combining social and economic issues that this report has only begun to address. The bank not only gives a service to the public like a school, college and hospital, a bank is actually a community service that is needed for lending, deposit, transfer and other different areas—mortgages. And, if they are not close by, people have to go too far to get those services, which is definitely a burden on certain people. Time, money and energy is wasted on those sorts of services, which is totally unacceptable.

Access to banking is a complex subject area, combining social and economic issues, which this report has only begun to address. However, I believe this is an important contribution to the process of reversing the decline in banking services in Wales, and I commend it to the Assembly. Thank you very much.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I won't go over some of the recommendations that people have talked about already, but I would say that this was a really important inquiry that we did on banking here in Wales. I echo some of the comments made about why we all have an interest, because branches are closing the length and breadth of Wales, which is not only stopping vulnerable people from accessing services, but stopping people in general getting access face to face.

I think that it's somewhat ironic for the banks to say that they want to move to online services when, when you want a mortgage or if you want something pretty serious to be transactioned, they always, if they need to discuss things further with you, call you into a branch. If that means travelling, it can mean some distance for many people, and so I wish they would try and communicate their strategy better. Is it online or is it going to branches? If they are intent on doing more online, can they not move more of their services to make it easier for those people who want to use them online?

I also wanted to say that, in some of the scrutiny sessions, I raised with the actual banking sector the fact that they make huge profits and then they tell us that they can't afford to keep branches open. So, HSBC have made a profit, and this is from June 2019, of £11.8 billion; Lloyds—£4.3 billion; Barclays—£2.4 billion. A combined profit of £22 billion, and they're telling us that they can't afford to keep branches in Llanystumdwy, Bethesda, Rhondda or Neath open. I do not believe it. They say it's a different part of the company, but it comes down to the bottom line, it comes down to the profits for their shareholders, and that's where they've got it all wrong, so I have little, if any, sympathy for them in that regard.

Recommendation 10 is one I'm passionate about, talking about digital inclusion, talking about financial inclusion, for not only young people in schools, but for people across the board. I know, for example, if we all had the power to understand our finances much, much better, we might not need to go and enter that bank, or we might not need to go into such extreme debt, because we'd already have the power to understand the resources in front of us. So, I am grateful that there are going to be changes to the education process, but I don't understand how that's going to be of no resource whatsoever. It's surely going to take a bit more resource to put new measures in place for financial education under Donaldson, so I'm a bit confused by that.

We also know that financial inclusion plans have been happening since 2016, but I would like to see scrutiny of those financial inclusion plans, because some local authorities are doing amazing work, but some local authorities are doing nigh on nothing to make sure that their people are accessing financial inclusion courses or programmes that will benefit them.

The other recommendation I just wanted to focus on, as has been mentioned quite a bit today, is the Banc Cambria concept, the community banking. I've worked quite strongly with Celtic Credit Union in Neath Port Talbot. They are pretty concerned about some of the duplication that may happen if Banc Cambria comes about. Now, I support the concept of a community bank, we do as a party, but all I will say is that we need to ensure that any new community bank works in tandem, works in harmony with the credit union sector. They are giving out loans, they are helping people in their communities. We really don't want to see that network threatened by any new community bank.

The other issue I think I wanted to reflect on, emanating from what Russell George said, was the finances of any new community bank. We know that the Welsh Government has given £600,000 to support the start-up or the seed funding for Banc Cambria, but they tell us that it would cost £20 million to get Banc Cambria up and running with all the regulations and such. The Welsh Government's response refers in detail to the seed funding, and says,

'total investment is likely to be no more than £600,000'.

However, the committee's report recommended that the Welsh Government should clarify the level of future support it anticipates offering the community bank. But I'd suggest the response could have been clearer from the Welsh Government. For instance, and I quote from the Welsh Government's response,

'The initial investment being offered to Banc Cambria is to test the feasibility and proof of the concept at the first stage enabling the bank to engage with the Prudential Regulatory Authority (PRA) and Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) with a view to obtaining authorisation to establish a bank; it is not at this stage to provide the more significant investment that will be required to capitalise the bank should it be successful in obtaining a banking licence.'

Now, the wording in that last sentence is a bit unclear, and I would like some clarity from the Welsh Government. Are you opening the door to more investment in the future? Six hundred thousand pounds is a flash in the pan to the £20 million that's needed, and I would think that the Welsh Government—[Interruption.] I don't know if I've got time.

I was just going to quickly say: I don't recall Banc Cambria actually suggesting that they needed any more from the Welsh Government, as I remember.

That's fine, but that would then put a lot of pressure on them to reach the £20 million. If they are comfortable in knowing that they can do that, past the £600,000, that's perfect. But, I'm merely asking, because of the way that they've responded to our recommendation, where they say that

'it is not at this stage to provide the more significant investment',  it suggests to me that there could be an open door. It doesn't say, 'We would not consider giving any more to Banc Cambria.' That's what I'm trying to understand: would the Government be minded, should Banc Cambria re-approach them for more funding, to be able to discuss that further? If Banc Cambria don't need that money, then obviously we would all be happy knowing that it wouldn't be totally reliant on the Welsh Government.

I'd like to finish by saying that, broadly, I think that we would support that concept. But, of course, we would need to understand how that would impact on the Post Office and the credit union sector, so that we could make sure that the community bank for Wales could be as successful as it could possibly be. 

Much of my contribution may have already been said or alluded to, but this is such an important matter that it bears saying several times, or even more. Across Wales, we have seen a demise in the ability to carry out financial transactions in the traditional manner—that is, through the high-street bank. The closure of banks, along with post offices, has caused great difficulty for people in general, but especially—as Russell George has alluded to—for businesses in rural areas, which now find that they have to travel many miles for their banking needs; and, of course, the elderly, many of whom have restricted mobility and so are greatly affected by the lack of bank branches.

The fact that we have free ATMs is a factor that is very important. I know, anecdotally, that New Tredegar—a small town in the northern Valleys—now has an ATM where the customers have to pay. They have to pay a certain amount for every transaction. We are talking about people who may be on very low incomes, so the percentage that they have to pay for their withdrawals is very prohibitive.

Recommendation 8 in the report makes the point that we are not able to see where there are gaps in the financial services available. We would all agree that it makes sense that there should be a map that pinpoints where there are areas that lack such facilities, and one that is updated on a regular basis. Only then can we begin to explore possible solutions. The Government's response points out that the Post Office is obliged by law to publish an annual report on its network. It is also true that the largest ATM network, LINK, publishes a directory of where its cash facilities are available. It is probably the case that the big four banks also publish data of this kind, as may a number of the smaller high-street banks, all of which would help facilitate the creation of a comprehensive map for banking and cash facilities.

Recommendations 9 and 10 refer to connectivity and the need to enhance understanding and use of online banking. However, there is an inherent problem in online banking, again especially with regard to the elderly. Fraudulent online banking activity continues to show a marked increase, according to figures released by Financial Fraud Action UK. Losses on 'cardholder not present' transactions online and on the telephone reached £63 billion up to, and including, last year.

Recommendation 11 is on the impact of closures of banks and free-for-all ATMs on town centres and communities. We have to accept, however, that banks are closing due to the drop in numbers of customers actually using bank branches, with customers increasingly choosing to use online banking. Of course, this trend is something that banks have been keen to support, as it calls for fewer and fewer premises and fewer staff, without a corresponding fall in their revenue streams. It is an undeniable fact that the loss of banks from towns has exacerbated the demise of town centres as it has a dramatic effect on the footfall in town centres. But it is also true to say that commercial rates, normally set at 48 per cent of rateable value, are also having a negative effect on the ability of high-street traders to keep a presence in town centres.

I note here the Welsh Government's potential involvement with Banc Cambria in order to explore the possibility of establishing a not-for-profit banking infrastructure, and its desire to promote a credit union presence in our town centres to replace, where possible, the former high-street banks. I believe that a not-for-profit, strong commercial banking infrastructure is possibly the only way to combat the decline in financial service accessibility, and thus that of our town centres, but in order to truly replace high-street banks, they must offer the business community the same facilities once provided by commercial banks—in particular, business loans and cash handling facilities.

I think we all ought to remind the former high-street banks that there is a social liability, as has been alluded to before, in that they have made vast profits out of the communities, and they owe that social liability to them, to retain banks wherever possible. Thank you.

As a member of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee I'd like to thank all those who contributed to our inquiry as well as the Chair and the clerking team for their excellent work on this vitally important topic. The list of stakeholders who contributed is lengthy and extremely diverse and I think that's not surprising, really, because we all know how important access to banking is, and how strongly people feel about the withdrawal of major banks from our high streets up and down Wales.

As a backbencher, a lot of your time is taken up with committee work and quite often you can find yourself immersed in what are very important and worthy inquiries, scrutinising existing policy or looking to the future, and think to yourself, 'As important as I think this is, I'm not quite sure my constituents would really be that interested in what I'm doing here.' But that was never the case with this inquiry into access to banking. I knew this was one inquiry where, if I was to explain to people in the Cynon Valley what we were looking at and why, they would be engaged, full of opinions, keen to know the outcome and where this Assembly and Welsh Government might be able to make a difference.

By way of an example, I, like many other Members of this Senedd, have a Facebook page through which I communicate with my constituents, and of all the posts that I've put up since I was elected in 2016, the one post, sadly, which gathered more attention than any other by a mile was a post that I wrote to inform constituents about the closure of the Co-operative Bank in Aberdare. This wasn't the first bank in the town to close and, indeed, I have to say, the town, quite rarely, does have a good representation of banks and building societies, but what that post did was to tap into the public psyche and the general feeling that people have that our banks have a social duty to retain a presence on the high street, and shouldn't just be driven by excessive profit margins and the move to online banking. One of the major gripes people have about bank closures is the lack of community consultation prior to branches closing, and the repeated and blinkered defence by the banking sector, who always say that it was purely a commercial decision.

So the process around bank closures was one area that we were keen to investigate as a committee. We examined the access to banking standard, which banks and building societies can, but don't have to sign up to, and which sets out how customers should receive timely and improved notification and support once a decision has been made to close a bank branch. The latest reports suggest that there's been good compliance with the standard from the banking industry, which leads me, in the light of the problems that we are all too aware of, to question whether or not the standard itself is strong enough. This was reflected in recommendation 6 of our report, where we called for the UK Government and JACS group to review whether the access to banking standard is sufficiently robust to address the impact of bank closures, or whether regulatory or other action is required. Understandably, the Welsh Government wasn't able to accept our recommendation because it has no devolved powers in this area, and this shows the complexities faced by Welsh Government in trying to hold banks to account for their behaviour in Wales. Is there a way around this? Is there a made-in-Wales solution? Well, quite possibly, a community bank of Wales, and that's something I'll return to later.

When defending their bank closures, banks are always keen to point to the role that post offices can play in providing banking services and to signpost their existing customers to their local Post Office branch. But is the Post Office really a viable alternative? Well, we explored this and what we found is that banks aren’t able to really offer the full range of services as other Members have pointed out, and this is compounded by the lack of public awareness about Post Office banking services as well, with 55 per cent of adults supposedly unaware they can use the Post Office for banking whatsoever. So, that led us to recommendation 7 where we asked the Welsh Government to review its support for the Post Office network and to raise awareness of these services across Wales. And again, the complexities of devolution came to the fore in the Welsh Government's response here, with them accepting our recommendation only in part, as funding for post offices is a matter for the UK Government. So, again this made me think whether a made-in-Wales solution is needed to circumvent these constraints.

And that leads me on to the community bank of Wales, with its intention to offer current accounts, face-to-face banking and provide loans by experienced staff. Could this be the solution that we are looking for? Well, the stakes are high indeed as public expectation is set to build around this very popular Government policy. When we questioned Mark Hooper of Banc Cambria, which has been awarded the seed funding to develop the community bank of Wales, he told us that the bank could feasibly create more than 50 branches in Wales within five to seven years, and he estimated that about 12 of those would be fully manned and the rest automated. Now, while this could be a welcome step to support our communities at the sharp end of bank closure, I do think there needs to be some expectation management here, and Welsh Government needs to be clear with people if only roughly a fifth of branches would be fully staffed. I know that communities in my constituency with no bank would be delighted to think that Banc Cambria might set up a branch there, but would they be quite so keen if they knew that it was just to be automated? So, although the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendation on this, I still feel it's an area that could require more scrutiny as plans develop.

And to conclude, this has been a vitally important inquiry, and I look forward to seeing Welsh Government's progress in this area.

As has been said, some committee inquiries attract more attention than others, but this inquiry resonated with the public more than most, and it's easy to see why, because there have been more than 200 banks closed in Wales since 2008. We did receive 874 responses to the online survey, and 87 per cent of personal banking customers told us they'd been impacted by closures, and at the same time, 78 per cent of business banking customers said the same.

My own region has been the hardest hit, with rural communities being the worst affected, and if I tried to name every town affected, I would run out of time. That is how bad this situation is. We have now a situation where even notable towns like Hay-on-Wye have no high-street bank left. Carmarthen East and Dinefwr has lost four fifths of its banking network in the last five years.

So, that really is the background and the context for this inquiry, and we did some good work, and we looked at some interesting ideas, like the Preston model, and that's a co-operative approach that focuses on lending to local businesses to boost those local economies.

But the reality is that something around 86 per cent of people bank with the large banks, and it's what's not in the report that says the most to me, namely that the big high-street banks declined to give oral evidence. And why should they? We only bailed out most of them to the tune of £500 billion a decade ago—£500 billion in the last 10 years. Four years ago, the industry agreed a protocol to apparently minimise the impact of closures. But crucially, the UK Government let them wriggle out of their last-bank-in-town agreement that would have prevented them abandoning the places that we all serve. So, when the last branch closed in Hay this year, I see that some people were calling on Powys council to offer reduced business rates as an incentive for the bank to stay. I think we need to get real here. We're talking about multi-billion-pound businesses. They're leaving because they can; they're not leaving because they can't afford the rent or they can't afford to stay. And anyway, why on earth should we, the public purse, subsidise these people yet again? No.

In refusing to give oral evidence to our inquiry, the big banks, as far as I'm concerned, have shown us the same disregard that they've shown the communities that they've abandoned. And they've been allowed to do so by successive Tory Governments. Just as the Tories used the global financial crash as a cynical excuse for an ideological assault on the state, to tear holes in the welfare system and cut public services and generally retreat from their social responsibilities, the banks used it to lay off tens of thousands of workers and shut up shop for even more profit.

Of course, I want to be clear here that I'm talking about the big banks; I'm not talking about the mutuals that we went to see and who were really very rooted in their communities because they felt part of those communities and they wanted to carry on serving those communities. So, I wanted to make certain that I made that clear.

Will you give way?

I'm carrying on. 

The Welsh Government has done what it can to plug the gaps. It has given significant support to credit unions—and I'll declare that I'm a member of a credit union—and it has given what money it can to the Post Office network, and it is looking towards, and we've heard it here today, creating a community bank for Wales. I think that's an exciting prospect, and I'm assured that it will help those people who need it, who will be relying on community-based banking to give them some hope of access to cash in their communities. And that's why a UK Labour Government will stop post office closures, and it will bring the Royal Mail back into public ownership. 

This is about public responsibility and accountability in banking, and I'm really pleased that we did this inquiry, and I'm really pleased that we are hoping to move forward together to ensure that we will be able to serve the people who desperately need that. 

Jack Sargeant. 

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I appreciate you allowing me to speak this afternoon, and I won't take too long of your time, because I think Members have rightly said the comments raised, but in particular I will focus on recommendations 13 and 14 about community banks. The Minister will know, as does the First Minister, that I've been working hard to try and bring a community bank to Buckley and also campaigned to save the closure of the town's last bank. 

Minister, I welcome the acceptance of the committee's recommendations and also the work done by Banc Cambria to date, so I hope you will join me in setting the bar high for Banc Cambria in the future: to be the best it can be, working collaboratively with others, including credit unions, to meet the requirements set of all banks but not actually met by many, and that is to provide all that wish access to current accounts with one, including the people who find themselves with no fixed abode, and to generally be a bank for everyone. 

Now, I think we've heard from contributions across the Chamber that there is a clear consensus. Yes, there is more scrutiny needed in the steps going forward, and I'm sure we will hold them to account, including the Government, but I also think we almost all of us agree that this needs to happen—a community bank needs to happen. So, my question is—to you, Minister, to the Government—how can we speed this up? How can the Welsh Government move this process forward as a matter of urgency and establish a community bank for Wales sooner rather than later? 

I will finish. I did say I'd be brief, Llywydd, and all I will finish on is: all I want for Christmas is a bank in Buckley, and also all those other places that have been hit hard as well through bank closures across the years.

I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates. 

Llywydd, it's been a pleasure to listen to the contributions this afternoon, and I'd like to thank in particular Russell George for chairing the committee's investigation into access to banking as well as, of course, the members of his committee. Clearly, a great deal of effort has gone into producing this excellent report, engaging with relevant partners and stakeholders, and I'd like to thank every member of the committee for their hard work. 

As the committee report notes, the loss of banks and the services they offer to citizens and to businesses from our high streets is not a new concern. However, the scale of closures continues to escalate at an alarming rate, and we've heard of numerous communities today that have lost their high-street banks in recent times, because traditional banks are retreating from all communities across Wales, and this is why the commitment, working with stakeholders, to explore the principle and establish a community bank of Wales was included in the First Minister's leadership manifesto. 

As the First Minister confirmed earlier this month, the partnership created by Banc Cambria and the Community Savings Bank Association is completing a detailed project plan, and an initial market assessment and feasibility study is under way, with input from both the Development Bank of Wales and Cardiff University. And I very much look forward to receipt of that report. 

Now, I do note the committee has some concerns about the feasibility of the community banking proposal and its potential impact on credit unions in particular, but work is already well under way to ensure that credit unions and the community bank and building societies work in collaboration to find the very best solutions to improve access to banking services. And this work is focused entirely on ensuring financial inclusion for all people across our country. 

Now, Welsh Government officials have also met with the Welsh credit union network to explore opportunities to collaborate whenever and wherever possible. Bank closures and the loss of free-to-use ATMs within communities can have a negative impact for many, but particularly for those who are vulnerable and financially excluded. The Welsh Government is concerned that those on low incomes, the elderly and people living in rural communities are not left behind. Whilst online banking and cashless transactions may be an option for many, we must not forget that some people will struggle, and more vulnerable groups will still need access to cash or to bank branches locally. 

Now, our vision for financial inclusion is for everybody living in Wales to have access to appropriate and affordable financial services. And the committee's report rightly recognises that many elements of this issue are reserved to the UK Government. Now, I note that the committee calls on the UK Government and the JACS group to review whether the access to banking standard is sufficiently robust to address the impact of bank closures on vulnerable people, on small and medium-sized enterprises and local communities. However, we are actively seeking and we will continue to seek opportunities to engage and to influence at a UK level. We must establish clear channels of communication where we can ensure the particular needs of Welsh citizens are heard and are also then met.

Will you take an intervention? 

In March—. Yes, of course. 

Can I just say that I raised that particular concern with recommendation 6 in my speech? I think the Minister has reassured me there, so thank you. And it's nice—. I think that's worth putting on the record. 

Thank you. Can I thank the Member for his kind comment? 

Back in March 2016, we set out how the Welsh Government aspires to join with partner organisations, both within Wales and at the UK level, in working towards a more financially inclusive society in Wales. Digital inclusion remains a key social justice and equality issue. Those who personally do not use or are limited users of digital technology are missing out on access to information, to services, to better deals and to cheaper goods and financial security. Our digital inclusion framework and delivery plan recognises that becoming fully digitally included is a continuous process, requiring ongoing support. This is an issue that Welsh Government cannot tackle alone and one that requires the buy-in of all partners and of wider society. 

Now, there are many barriers to accessing online services: a lack of skills, access and motivation, particularly for those on low incomes, older people and people who face disabling barriers in society. Digitally excluded customers are often the most financially excluded, so they should not be penalised further by the inevitable shift to more digital services.

I know many banks are involved in digital inclusion activities and, indeed, Digital Communities Wales has worked with Lloyds, Barclays and Nat West to better co-ordinate digital inclusion activities across communities. However, banks should help ensure their customers have the opportunities to gain the confidence and digital skills to access the full range of banking services that they need, and provide alternative measures for those who cannot or will not use online services.

Access to fast and reliable broadband is, of course, increasingly a necessity, including to provide access to banking services, and Superfast Cymru has provided more than 733,000 premises with access to fast broadband. It has transformed the digital landscape across Wales, and none of these premises would have received access to fast, reliable broadband without our intervention. In addition, local development plans can address a wide range of issues concerning the development and use of land, including infrastructure needs. LDPs can include policies to support cash infrastructure where it relates to the development and use of land.

Now, the type of detailed design policies affecting ATMs are, for example, ensuring that they are sensitively placed in relation to listed buildings, or positioned so that queues do not affect highway safety. These are matters that local planning authorities routinely deal with already in LDPs, and are not something Welsh Government should need to support them in drafting.

Whilst it's recommended that banks will continue to close their branches that are not commercially viable, we feel that banks have a commitment to mitigate the effects of bank closures in communities right across Wales. They need to ensure the transition is managed so that vulnerable people are not excluded and customers are still able to access banking products in their local community.

In closing, I'd like to reaffirm my commitment to a more financially inclusive society in Wales. The committee report has highlighted a number of areas that we will need to consider over the next few months, and I'm pleased that we are already progressing areas that will help to mitigate the damaging effects of bank closures and difficulties with access to banking.  

Russell George to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I think our report last week on regional skills partnerships had a very different response, and we were quite, perhaps, critical of the Government's response to our work, but, on this piece of work, I very much welcome that the Minister obviously takes the issue very seriously, and I'm delighted that most of our recommendations have been accepted, and the response to our work was generally positive, I'd say, although lacking perhaps some detail in some areas, but largely positive.

I would perhaps respond to some of the points that other Members have made during the course of this debate. Hefin pointed out how we learnt so much during the course of our work. We learned about the JACS group, but there are other issues. I'd say all the work we do is enjoyable, of course, and interesting, but this seemed to be a more enjoyable element of this particular work, because we learned so much as we went through the report. And, as witnesses gave us evidence, things came to light that we hadn't perhaps originally expected. Hefin did also point out, quite rightly, that some of the recommendations weren't accepted, because the Government responded that these were issues for the UK Government, but what we would say, and the point Hefin was making, is that the Welsh Government could accept those recommendations and use its role to lobby Government.

Bethan tackled some of the issues about the huge profits that the banks make, and Joyce Watson also highlighted these points as well. We certainly feel as a committee that banks should have a social responsibility. Often, we get told that banks are private and they're commercial entities, but we have to, of course, remember, as Joyce pointed out, that, as taxpayers, we bailed the banks out, so they do have responsibility. Some other points that Joyce made that I perhaps won't comment on as Chair—

Will you take an intervention, please? 

Yes, David. 

Surely, it's not a responsibility—it's a liability of the banks to the communities. 

Well, as a committee we certainly felt that the banks do have a social responsibility, and they should be playing that role. I'll come on perhaps to address that a little bit more as well.

But there are some specific challenges in terms of the kind of resources that will be needed by Banc Cambria, and that was raised by a number of contributors—Bethan and Hefin I think made that point. So, we're very keen to not let this go as a committee. We want to examine very carefully as the Cambria bank develops. I think Jack Sargeant pointed out as well how quickly we want this to come about. But there is also a need to perhaps understand some of the real challenges there are with developing Banc Cambria, and we certainly want to look at this in more detail, I think, as Vikki pointed out as well.

David Rowlands—I thank David for his contribution. David highlighted the point that, why we are where we are is because of falling numbers. People are less likely to use the bank. Footfall has fallen. That's the obvious point that perhaps I didn't say and others didn't say. That's why we are where we are. But the bank, of course, tell us that that's the reason and everyone can go online, but the point here is that everyone can't go online, which is the point that he went on to make—there are some people who cannot, for whatever reason, either they have not got connectivity, they have not got the skills, or there are security issues that they're concerned about. And for a range of reasons, people aren't ready to do that, and we aren't yet ready to move to that position that the banks so readily want us to move to.

I think also, in terms of the Minister's response to our piece of work, much of this is, I think, reserved, but it's also critical to people in Wales. So, I think the committee would really welcome more detail on the outcome of the Welsh engagement with JACS and how that translates into action. We also want to see that it's important to continue to explore all avenues, especially as it's not quite clear how Banc Cambria can meet the needs of people that are older, disabled—vulnerable customers who need appropriate action and face-to-face services. And I think it was Joyce Watson who pointed out that we don't know exactly what Banc Cambria is going to look like yet. Is it going to be a bank that operates face-to-face services, or is it just going to be a bank where you can go in and see more technology?

Will you give way?

Yes, Mark.

I'm wondering what consideration you gave to mutuals as well. We heard reference to private, which, of course, is insurance funds and pension funds, but many mutuals collapsed and many building societies collapsed, and the branch closures include many building societies, who've also withdrawn cash machines. So, it's how we look at the whole sector, rather than simply looking at privately owned banks.

I take Mark Isherwood's point. This is a very complex area. What we were concerned about as a committee is that, although we saw the ambition of Banc Cambria, we were concerned about the consequences on credit unions and other organisations, in terms of having a negative impact, and perhaps the unintended consequences on other services. But it is a very hugely complex area, and the Welsh Government has to, I think, work hard at the levers that it has at its disposal. Our inquiry I think barely scratched the surface, but hopefully we've shone some light, perhaps, on this in terms of what banks have to face.

I will end my contribution. Jack Sargeant did say he wanted to wish a happy Christmas in terms of—. I think he said he wanted to wish everyone—. His wish for Christmas was a bank in Buckley—is that right? That's right. All he wants for Christmas is a bank in Buckley. But I would say that we should thank everyone who took part in this inquiry. The evidence that was provided was of a high standard and I would particularly like to wish a happy Christmas to those that support us as Assembly Members when it comes to bringing forward our inquiries, in terms of drafting them and the research that goes into them as well. So, happy Christmas to the staff that help us to so widely do this.

I think I would end—. It is disappointing—Joyce Watson pointed this out—that the banks themselves did not engage with our inquiry as we would have liked. This is really disappointing, I'm afraid. They had the opportunity to participate and they didn't. So, we're not wishing them a happy Christmas. [Laughter.]

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.