Item 9 on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on the Petitions Committee's petition P-05-967, 'Welsh Government to amend its NDR relief policy to help keep Debenhams stores open in Wales', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Motion NDM7343 Janet Finch-Saunders

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the petition 'P-05-967 Welsh Government to amend its NDR relief policy to help keep Debenhams stores open in Wales' which received 5,790 signatures.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and also for the opportunity to introduce this debate. The petition in front of us collected 5,790 signatures. It was submitted by Peter Black, a former colleague of many of us here in the Senedd, and a current elected councillor on Swansea Council.

This petition raises concerns about the impact that the closure of large retail stores can have on the viability of town and city centres. It does so in the context of the challenges facing the retail sector as a result of the coronavirus. The petition references Debenhams stores in keeping with the central role that store plays in Swansea city centre. We have the same here in Llandudno—it is very much an anchor store for many within our premier shopping centre. However, the wider point made by the petitioners is the importance of such large anchor stores in many town and city centres across Wales. The knock-on effect that the loss of such a store, and the resulting drop in footfall, can be devastating to other businesses in the area.

Now, I want to stress that, in bringing this petition forward, the Petitions Committee is not seeking to prompt a detailed debate of the merits of offering financial support to one specific company, or about the financial position of Debenhams itself. Instead, I believe that a discussion of this petition can help to shine a light on two significant issues: (1) how the financial support available to businesses from the Welsh Government can best be prioritised to those who need it the most; and (2) what measures can be taken to protect our high streets from the effects of this awful pandemic. Nevertheless, it is necessary to briefly set out some background to the petition.

In March the Minister for Finance announced a package of support for businesses in response to COVID-19. This included 100 per cent business rates relief for properties used for retail, leisure and hospitality, for one year only. Subsequently, the scheme was amended to exclude properties with a rateable value of £500,000 and over. The Welsh Government states that this affects fewer than 200 properties in Wales and has enabled more than £100 million to be redirected into its economic resilience fund. Companies, including Debenhams, have alleged that this decision may put the reopening of some large stores in Wales in jeopardy. In the case of Debenhams stores in Swansea and Newport, both of which have been highlighted to the committee, deferrals of business rates have been agreed locally. The petitioner has pointed out the number of jobs generated by large retail premises, both in terms of direct employment and indirectly to the local economy. He also points out that the local agreements reached only relate to deferrals, with the money still being due in future.

Clearly, many retailers have been able to reopen their doors since restrictions on non-essential retail were relaxed from 22 June. This, one would hope, should help to alleviate the challenges faced by many retailers across Wales. However, there are still clearly some very hard times ahead, and it is no exaggeration to say that there are existential challenges facing many businesses, large and small. Many of these challenges are structural and predate the current crisis, but they have certainly been exacerbated by the shutdown required to tackle this disease. I hope that this debate helps us to further the discussion about how the Welsh Government can best respond to those challenges. I also look forward to hearing from the Minister today about the actions being taken to support retailers and other businesses in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I welcome this opportunity to speak on this petition. Sitting on the Petitions Committee is a real privilege for me because it gives me a great opportunity to look at items of huge importance, like this one. This petition is asking the Government to act to help secure the future of an important employer here in Wales and we should all be very conscious of the need for government to show flexibility in defending jobs in retail, where our high streets have really been affected by the coronavirus pandemic. Of course, there are other sectors as well. Many sectors across Wales have been affected, and I myself have called on the UK Government to act quickly to support the aerospace industry. I can only hope that they start to take these calls seriously.

I noted, Deputy Llywydd, the Minister's response to the committee with real interest and in particular that the Welsh Government is providing non-domestic rates relief to the majority of Debenhams stores in Wales, with a total support of over £1 million. However, we do have to recognise this company is a significant employer across Wales and I would urge the Minister to further outline how she can work with our partners in local government to further support these jobs and how she can also look further to how we're supporting all jobs across our high streets and all businesses on our high streets throughout this crisis and into the post-COVID world. Thank you.

I'm pleased to say a few words in this debate and thank Janet Finch-Saunders and indeed the Petitions Committee for having considered an important petition. I first raised the issue of Debenhams a number of weeks ago now when the threat to the Welsh stores in Newport and Swansea, I think it was, were first mentioned and first emerged in my local press. I think it's very easy for us to focus on the need to support small businesses and medium-sized enterprises during the pandemic, and, of course, that is vitally important, and in my own constituency in my area of south Wales you've got market towns, you've got small shops that do need support, but at the same time, I think if we take our eye off the ball and we don't look at ways that we can support the larger anchor stores as well, then we're going to be missing something. And as Janet Finch-Saunders said in opening, the way that the business rate regime is working in Wales—the non-domestic rate regime—that does mean that stores like Debenhams have felt threatened. I think it would be too easy to think, 'Well, okay, they're larger companies, they'll be all right.' At the end of the day, if we lose a store such as the flagship store in Newport, which has only been open for a few years now, relatively speaking, we lose a lot of jobs, we lose a major anchor store in that area that brings people in who are then going to shop in surrounding shops and support the local economy. And although it's in the neighbouring constituency—it's in Newport West, in Jayne Bryant's area—of course, many people in my area go down to that store and many people work there.

So, thank you for taking this petition on, Janet, and can I thank the members of the Petitions Committee for doing that and bringing this debate here today? Let's urge the Welsh Government to look again at the non-domestic rates relief scheme. Yes, the Welsh Government has done a number of things to try and support businesses and particularly smaller businesses, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the large stores like Debenhams need the support.

I'd also like to hear from the Minister, when the Minister does respond, as to an update on the discussions that have been held with the management of Debenhams, because I think, from what I know from what they've said, they've had some very good ideas, which hopefully we can come to an accommodation on where all sides will be satisfied. But thank you for this debate today.

Whilst we support the motion, it is disappointing to note that it could not include other iconic high-street retailers. I of course appreciate that the committee has to present the debate in the light of the original petition. I would like, however, to take this opportunity to emphasise that other major stores have closed or are about to close many of their high-street facilities. We in Torfaen have seen the closure of the Marks and Spencer store in Cwmbran town centre, and one wonders what is the financial situation of such businesses as the David Evans department store in the town, which is one of the House of Fraser chain of stores. These famous chains are often anchor stores for town centres; their absence often causes—if you'll forgive the pun—a chain reaction for the centres affected, where many small outlets cannot survive because of the reduced footfall in the town itself. Whilst we support this call on behalf of Debenhams, can I urge the Government to help all such retail outlets? The future of all our town or city centres is very much in the balance, and we must do everything we can to help sustain them.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Finance and the Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government recognises the challenges facing businesses during the pandemic, and an extraordinary effort has gone into providing the most generous business support package anywhere in the UK. Our £1.7 billion package includes over £350 million of non-domestic rates relief for businesses in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors, and this scheme reduces the rates bills for these businesses to zero for this financial year. This is in addition to our existing rates relief schemes, which are providing over £230 million of support this year. As a result of our schemes, over 70,000 businesses and other organisations in Wales are paying no rates this year. We've also provided over £800 million of funding for grants related to rateable values to support small and medium-sized businesses across Wales, including businesses in the retail sector. We've worked with local authorities to ensure that this funding has reached businesses as quickly as possible, and I want to thank all local authorities across Wales for the agile and efficient way in which they've approached this challenge to support businesses across our communities. So far, they've issued over 60,000 grants to eligible businesses. Unlike in England, businesses not eligible for these schemes have been able to apply for financial support via our £0.5 billion economic resilience fund, which has been designed to address the gaps in the UK left in the UK Government's offer.

I know that not every business has qualified for financial support, and our package has been designed to be affordable within the available funding in the face of an unprecedented global pandemic. Despite these pressures, the Office for National Statistics figures show that 34 per cent of all businesses in Wales have received Government support in Wales, compared with 14 per cent in England. Our ability to go beyond the support offered by the UK Government was in part funded by our decision to cap the support available through our new rates relief measures, and that decision was not taken lightly. It enabled over £100 million to be directed towards our economic resilience fund, which supports businesses of all sizes. To illustrate the impact that this has, this is the sum needed to fund grants of £50,000 for over 2,000 Welsh SMEs, and this fund has supported thousands of small businesses, which make up a greater share of the Welsh economy, with many serving as the backbone of our communities.

Turning to the challenges facing Debenhams, I recognise the importance of Debenhams stores to our towns and cities across Wales, and I have met with the chair of Debenhams to learn more about the company's position. It's important to recognise that the majority of Debenhams stores in Wales are receiving rate relief and grant support, which amounts to £1.3 million this year. However, Debenhams's problems are well documented, and, as the company faces its third insolvency process in 12 months, I just don't think it's credible to claim that the sustainability of the business could be guaranteed by further rates relief from the Welsh Government. Debenhams has already announced the closure of some of its stores across UK, and those include a number of premises that were eligible for rate relief. And given this challenging backdrop, I referred the company to the economic resilience fund, which has supported strategically important businesses in Wales with a rateable value over £500,000.

It's only right that any further support is linked to clear commitments on jobs and business plans, because they're the factors that determine whether our support actually delivers for our communities, our town centres and our workers in Wales. With our finite resources, I am confident that a fair balance was struck by limiting rate relief for those larger premises in order to support smaller businesses with nowhere else to turn. We must also recognise that non-domestic rates exist to help fund the local services that we all rely on. Every penny of revenue collected is used to fund local services, and these services are vital in ordinary times, but, in the current circumstances, local authorities are also providing direct and crucial support in dealing with the impact of the virus. 

So, to conclude, while working at a pace and scale that is entirely unprecedented, the Welsh Government has provided support to Debenhams and engaged positively with the company, whilst seeking to protect jobs and ensure the sound use of public money. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I now call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Presiding Officer. And in concluding today's debate, I wish to thank the petitioner and others who have contacted our committee about this issue. It was good of Jack Sargeant to contribute as a member of the committee, and, you know, face calls to the Minister to set out how such businesses can be supported. My colleague Nick Ramsay endorsing once again the need to acknowledge that these anchor stores, once we lose them, also lead to the loss of many jobs. David Rowlands, highlighting that there are other big name stores out there—and he mentioned House of Fraser, Marks and Spencers—and how that leads to a chain reaction when we lose these large stores.

This debate has enabled some important points and issues to be raised, and I am very grateful to the Minister for responding to many of those. The Petitions Committee will consider this petition once again in light of the contributions that have been made in our Plenary session this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.