The next group of amendments relates to powers of inspection. Amendment 4 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move the lead amendment.

Amendment 4 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's my pleasure to move the amendments in group 2 standing in my name, and I hope they'll find support in the Assembly, but, again, I don't think I'll have much luck there, to be honest, but there you go, it's worth a try, because it is an important area. It is about powers of inspection and the person who will be delegated to undertake that inspection. At the moment, the Bill is not clear exactly who would do that, and these amendments merely seek to tidy that piece of legislation up so that it would either have to be a veterinary surgeon or a suitably qualified individual.

It was a fair criticism in the evidence session and also the Stage 2 proceedings of the committee that the Minister did point out that, actually, in that amendment at that time, we were very prescriptive in saying it should be specifically just a veterinary surgeon. This time, we've broadened the amendment to say a suitably qualified person.

I think many of us, in our roles as politicians, have always sat in the middle of disputes and looked for expert opinions and expert advice. Well, in fairness, you cannot get a more expert opinion in this particular field of inspection than a veterinary surgeon or a suitably qualified person with a similar qualification to a veterinary surgeon. Surely, as politicians, we should be trying to take out the conflict in any piece of legislation, and, hopefully, have a successful resolution where that area might be in dispute.

So, this series of amendments seeks to do that, and I hope very much that the Welsh Parliament will endorse the amendments that are standing in my name, and, hopefully, have a far stronger piece of legislation that actually can get the dispute process in better order, should these powers be required—powers of entry and powers of inspection. So I hope that the Parliament will support the amendments standing in my name this afternoon.

The Minister. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Paragraph 9 of the Schedule sets out the powers of inspection, search and seizure available to an inspector when exercising a power of entry. An inspector cannot seize a wild animal, but may, for example, examine it or take samples. But it's very unlikely that these powers will be needed. Inspectors are already working with the same powers in other legislation. They're not novel, and they mirror powers already in place in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Wild Animals in Circuses Act 2019 in England, and the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Act 2018—both contain similar powers.

Paragraph 8 of the Schedule provides that inspectors may take onto the premises other persons and such equipment and materials as the inspector considers to be appropriate to assist in their duties. The other people could include specialists, for example, a zoological specialist to help identify animals, or a veterinary surgeon. A veterinary surgeon would be required to take a sample from an animal only if the sampling is considered to be a practice of veterinary surgery, as defined by the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966. There are exemptions, but taking a sample of blood, for example, for DNA testing to determine if an animal is of a species commonly domesticated in the British islands or not would have to be carried out by a veterinary surgeon.

Paragraph 10 of the Schedule provides that any person brought onto the premises by the inspector is able to exercise the inspector's powers under paragraph 9, provided they are under the inspector's supervision. A veterinary surgeon accompanying an inspector could, under supervision, take samples from an animal for identification purposes. So, it follows that the proposal to specify that only a suitably trained person or a veterinary surgeon may examine, measure, test or take a sample from an animal, and the associated regulation-making powers, are unnecessary and unjustified. So I ask Members to reject these amendments, which are entirely unnecessary. Diolch.

Andrew R.T. Davies to respond. 

If I could respond to the Minister there, Minister, you were responsible for the bovine TB strategy here in Wales, and obviously the testers there have to be either a veterinary surgeon or someone who's suitably qualified—it's specified in the rules and regulations. Surely the same logic is here when you're talking about wild animals, and exotic animals even, where there might be an area of doubt, there might be an area of concern whether the animal does fall under the legislation. As the evidence at Stage 1 that the committee took showed, the list isn't definitive and you do need that expert opinion should a test have to be undertaken, or a clarification of which animals might or might not fall under the legislation. Members who sat on the committee—Labour Members as well—heard that very evidence.

So, I would suggest that these amendments that have been tabled today, again, like my first amendment in group 1, are all about tidying up some of the looser edges of this legislation, so that they take the conflict out. Hopefully this legislation will be passed, because the legislation is non-contentious—we all support its implementation—but ultimately, it can be a far better piece of legislation if these amendments are accepted by the Government and supported by the Parliament as a whole. I hear what the Minister says, and I appreciate these amendments will fall this evening, but I will push them to the vote so that they can be tested this evening. I therefore call for the vote.

The proposal is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 34.14D, there will be a break of five minutes before we vote on this amendment and the remaining amendments for this afternoon. So, a break of five minutes. 

Plenary was suspended at 19:38.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:41, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

We therefore move to a vote on amendment 4. Amendment 4—open the vote. 

[Inaudible.]—not been able to be cast, but I will close the vote. 

In favour 25, one abstention, 28 against. And therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

Amendment 4 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill: For: 25, Against: 28, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Andrew R.T. Davies, amendment 5.

Amendment 5 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Move. 

The question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 5. Open the vote. 

[Inaudible.]—to vote, but I will close the vote. 

In favour 25, one abstention, 28 against. And therefore, amendment 5 is not agreed. 

Amendment 5 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 25, Against: 28, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 6, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Amendment 6 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.

Move.

Any objection to amendment 6? [Objection.] We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 6. Open the vote. 

We'll close the vote. 

In favour 25, one abstention and 28 against. And therefore, the amendment is not agreed. 

Amendment 6 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 25, Against: 28, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 7, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Amendment 7 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved.  

Move. 

The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore move to a vote on amendment 7. Open the vote. 

[Inaudible.]—unable to be cast. Close the vote. 

In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 7 is not agreed. 

Amendment 7 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 8, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Amendment 8 (Andrew R.T.Davies) moved. 

Move. 

The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 8. 

One vote still unable to be cast. 

In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. And therefore, the amendment is not agreed. 

Amendment 8 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 9, Andrew R.T. Davies.  

Amendment 9 (Andrew R.T. Davies) moved. 

Move.  

The question is that amendment 9 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 9. Open the vote. Close the vote, with one Member having been unable to vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. And therefore, amendment 9 is not agreed. 

Amendment 9 - Stage 3 Wild Animals in Circuses (Wales) Bill: For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

We have reached the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill. I declare that all sections and schedules of the Bill are deemed agreed. That concludes Stage 3 proceedings.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

And, before we close, may I thank everyone for their efforts today? And may I particularly thank our officials who have worked to enable us, as a Senedd, to vote electronically remotely and to break new ground in doing so, once again? Thank you very much for your patience and I wish you all well. 

The meeting ended at 19:48.