5. Statement by the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd: Update on fiscal impacts of COVID-19 and future budget prospects

– in the Senedd at 4:30 pm on 6 October 2020.

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Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 4:30, 6 October 2020

Item 5 is a statement by the Minister for Finance: an update on the fiscal impacts of COVID-19 and future budget prospects. I call Rebecca Evans.

Photo of Rebecca Evans Rebecca Evans Labour

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Today, I am providing Members with an update on the fiscal impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic and our future budget prospects. Our efforts are focused on responding to the impacts of the pandemic and setting the foundations for reconstruction with new support for jobs, young people, communities and our environment.

The Chancellor’s decision to cancel the UK autumn budget, the uncertainty surrounding the UK comprehensive spending review and the lack of information on replacement EU funding all contribute to making our task harder. Together with my counterparts in Scotland and Northern Ireland, who are also making statements to their respective legislatures today, we are setting out our joint requests to the UK Government for greater fiscal flexibilities, meaningful involvement in the spending review and a fair deal on EU replacement funds.

We have now allocated almost £4 billion in response to the impact of the pandemic. This has been drawn from consequentials from the UK Government as well as £0.5 billion from the COVID-19 response reserve that we created through repurposed budgets. Since the supplementary budget, we have allocated £260 million in additional funding for local authorities and an additional £800 million stabilisation budget for the NHS, as well as support for wider priorities from public transport to arts and culture.

Today, I am pleased to announce a further substantial package of funding totalling £320 million to help people and businesses to survive the challenging times ahead. We are investing in the reconstruction priorities outlined just now by the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition to support a values based recovery. Together with the major investment in businesses and skills within the economic resilience fund, these measures provide a significant investment in our reconstruction efforts.

My ministerial colleagues will set out further details in the coming days and weeks, but I can confirm that the action we will take to support children and young people will include £15 million to help more learners in further education with the digital tools they need, at the same time as boosting enrolment capacity to support young people through the economic shock. A further £9.5 million will help those in years 11, 12 and 13 with additional catch-up support at this crucial time in their education.

A further £60 million will be dedicated to support a step up in the construction of council and social housing. This action will help to boost jobs, with investment in low-carbon housing, greater energy efficiency and efforts to reduce fuel poverty. And £14 million will support measures to respond to the climate emergency by pursuing our strong decarbonisation agenda, managing our land for the benefit of rural communities and future generations, and protecting natural resources. This major investment demonstrates how our approach to reconstruction will be guided by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and in particular the importance we place on early intervention to prevent problems in the future.

While this action is essential to our recovery, only the UK Government has the macro-economic levers required to reignite the economy. I remain greatly concerned that the job support scheme includes an arbitrary definition of what a viable job is, which will only worsen the difficulties for those who are hardest hit. Together with counterparts in Scotland and Northern Ireland, I am today urging the UK Government to do more to support the businesses and sectors that are hardest hit; to do more on skills and more on job creation for young people; and to continue with additional universal credits, due to run out in March, which have helped some of the poorest families weather the storm. The UK Government must also do more to provide extra support to individuals and businesses in local lockdown areas.

There remains uncertainty about the level of funding that we can expect this year. While I welcomed the UK Government’s guarantee that I was able to negotiate in July, there have since then been several announcements of further funding in England without clarity about the implications for us here in Wales. We rightly expect our fair share of new funding announcements by the UK Government, but we have currently no way of judging whether or not we're receiving it.

This backdrop makes the case for greater fiscal flexibility all the more urgent. There are three main new flexibilities we require: (1) the ability, if we need it, to overspend this year, up to a limit that we can agree with the UK Government; (2) the ability to carry forward more in the Wales reserve at the end of the financial year; and (3) enhanced access to the resources in the Wales reserve in 2021-22 for both revenue and capital. Together with my counterparts, we are collectively asking the UK Government today to provide the full suite of flexibilities that we need to manage the challenges that we're facing.

The cancellation of the UK autumn budget and the uncertainty surrounding the comprehensive spending review has major implications for our budget process. At present, I intend to publish our draft budget proposals on 8 December and the final budget on 2 March 2021. However, this timetable is heavily dependent on when we receive details of our settlement for future years and the conclusion of the spending review. While I continue to press on with our draft budget preparations, without a UK Government budget I am having to make assumptions about the block grant and use provisional information on the block grant adjustments. So, together with my counterparts, we are collectively asking the UK Government today for urgent clarity around the scope and the timing of the spending review.

We also face the continued uncertainty regarding the UK Government’s approach to the end of the EU transition period. We continue to press the UK Government for more clarity about how it will deliver on promises that Wales will not be worse off as a result of Brexit and that devolution will be fully respected. Replacement funds will be integral to our recovery, so their delivery must be fully devolved so that we can target them to meet the specific needs of people, communities and businesses in Wales.

The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill serves to undermine this, and we will do all we can to resist this power grab and the race to the bottom that it represents. For this reason, together with my counterparts, we are collectively asking the UK Government today for assurances that it will provide full replacement funding of EU programmes without detriment to the devolution settlements. We also require a fair share of funding for new functions that will fall to Wales and that will help us to support a smooth transition as we exit the EU.

So, to conclude, it is imperative that the UK Government acts on the collective calls we are making today to provide the flexibilities and the funding needed to enable us to respond to the challenges effectively. In the meantime, the Welsh Government will continue to work tirelessly to build a more prosperous, more equal, and a greener future for Wales, and this is underpinned by the significant investment that I am announcing today.

Photo of Nick Ramsay Nick Ramsay Conservative 4:38, 6 October 2020

(Translated)

Thank you, Minister, for the statement.

Photo of Nick Ramsay Nick Ramsay Conservative

Well, where to start? I think we are at least united in the desire to support jobs, young people, communities and our environment, and to 'grow back greener', as is the new expression that's going around. But, I must say, Minister, I'm a bit disappointed with today's statement. You point out that the UK Government has the macro-economic levers required to reignite the economy, but of course you must also recognise that you have some pretty powerful levers at your disposal here too. I really do think we need to get beyond this 'It's all Westminster's fault' line, which seems to pervade so many debates and statements in this Chamber.

You say in your statement that £4 billion has been allocated to alleviate the pandemic—that's true. But, as you also indicate, doesn't a large chunk of that money come from UK Government spending consequentials anyway, which surely is a great example of macro-economic support for Wales? In terms of the budget reprioritisation that you mentioned, it would be good to have a little more detail—I know you mentioned some projects—as to what that budget reprioritisation is involving and, indeed, which budgets are being reduced to allow for that reprioritisation to take place.

I welcome what you said about the future generations legislation and the need, as we build back better and greener, to make sure that that legislation is complied with, but how often do we talk about that, but then, in practice, it doesn't actually happen on the ground? Our late colleague Steffan Lewis was always raising this in this Chamber and in committee. These ideas are great in principle, but are they actually working in practice? Because if they're not, then that can be misleading.

I understand fully your calls for more budget flexibility and that is a good thing, however, it's not a panacea, is it? We welcome the guarantee that the UK Government gave you with regard to funding, but with regard to your concerns over clarity, what discussions have you had with the UK Government as to how greater transparency could be provided to the Welsh Government now and in the future when funding allocations are made? Although, I do suspect that that transparency may well highlight that the current allocations have been pretty generous, actually, so I'm not sure that we would hear too much in this Chamber about them at the moment.

Turning to support planning and EU finance matters, well, okay, you're having to make assumptions about the block grant—I understand that these are challenging times for your officials—but aren't Governments across the globe having to make assumptions about all sorts of things at the moment, in these unprecedented times? The situation across the UK is fast moving. As you said, they have macro-economic levers at their disposal, so I don't think it's entirely fair to just throw criticism at the UK Government; I think we have to accept that these are unprecedented times.

On EU transition, yes, we do look to the UK Government to ensure that Wales is not worse off as a result of the UK departure from the EU, and it is important that the devolution settlement is respected. You have support on that.

To bring this to a conclusion, Chair, let's not forget that it was the UK coalition Government that delivered greater fiscal powers for the Welsh Government and for this Senedd, including some pretty significant tax powers. So, I think we need to reflect on that, and, yes, flexibility is good, but when the Welsh Government ask for more money, it actually already has many tools at its disposal here to raise finance, to borrow and to incorporate flexibility into the system. So, let's remember that in the future. And Minister, can we work together, get on with growing the Welsh economy, growing the Welsh tax base, building back better, building back greener and making sure that the future economy of Wales is stronger than it has been in the past?

Photo of Rebecca Evans Rebecca Evans Labour 4:42, 6 October 2020

I'm grateful to the Conservative spokesperson for those comments this afternoon. I do reassure him that we are absolutely using all of the levers at our disposal in terms of our response to the coronavirus pandemic, and also, then, the work that Jeremy Miles has outlined this afternoon in terms of our efforts to focus on the reconstruction.

I think we can demonstrate that particularly in the work that we've done to repurpose budgets across Government. So, the £500 million economic resilience fund is a really good example of where we repurposed Welsh Government funding and European funding in order for us to be able to put in place that rapid support for businesses. And we know how many businesses have benefited from that—over 60,000 businesses have benefited. And we know that we have secured over 100,000 jobs and I think that's an incredible achievement, but we recognise, of course, the difficult times facing us in terms of the economy and the need to do more, which is why the third phase of that economic resilience fund is open at the moment.

It's good to hear Nick Ramsay talking about the guarantee that we were able to negotiate with the UK Government. We understand now that we're at the top end of that guarantee. The UK Government had said it would provide us with comprehensive details as to the Barnett consequentials to which that guarantee referred. Unfortunately, we're yet to have the detailed reconciliation of that information, so it does make it difficult for us to understand to what extent the funding we have received relates to items that the UK Government has spent on. For example, we can't see where additional funding that might have been spent on field hospitals across the border would fall within that guarantee and we can't see additional funding for ventilators, for example. It's very hard to think that the UK Government's health department could have funded those from within existing budgets. So, there's a lot of work to do, I think, yet, in terms of having that transparency across the budgets, which I think we would both recognise is essential.

From my part, I want to be as transparent with the Senedd as I possibly can. So, I've had a very useful meeting with the Chair of the Finance Committee. I'm very grateful for the time that he spent with me discussing how we can make a transparent interim supplementary budget, if you like, and bring that forward before the end of the month. That should be an opportunity for us to tie up the funding that we've already spent on our COVID response, in order, then, for the supplementary budget, which I would normally table in February, to concentrate more on the reconstruction effort. So, I'm really keen to get as much information to colleagues as possible, and be as transparent as possible, because I do recognise the sums that we're talking about are very, very significant.

Of course, flexibility isn't a panacea, but it will certainly help a lot, especially in that context of not understanding completely our budget. We're not asking for additional funding in this respect; we're simply asking for the ability to use our funding that we already have in a more agile way. The size of the Wales reserve is very small anyway, so having additional access to that in order to manage our budgets over years is really important. Nick Ramsay and I have talked before about the fact that COVID doesn't recognise financial years, so the need to move smoothly and seamlessly from one into another, I think, is important. The flexibilities that we're calling for are just common sense budget management tools, really.

Nick Ramsay also asked what discussions we've had with the UK Government. I want to be absolutely fair and say that engagement with the UK Government has improved significantly since the start of the crisis. Next week we will be having our eighth or ninth finance Ministers quadrilateral; I think those have been really useful throughout the crisis, and we need to continue that stepped-up level of engagement now as we move through the comprehensive spending review.

I'd just conclude by saying that I very much welcome what Nick Ramsay had said about European transition and the need for the UK Government to deliver on its promises in terms of ensuring that Wales isn't a penny worse off and doesn't lose powers as a result.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru 4:47, 6 October 2020

(Translated)

Thank you, Minister, for the statement. Yes, we are in an unprecedented period of pressure on our budgets, and I certainly agree that a lack of clarity from the UK Government does cloud things further, and I would hope that the Conservative spokesperson would agree that we need that clarity. We in Wales must be able to make our own analysis as to whether the funding coming follows the current rules on the allocation of funding between the nations of the UK, and at the moment, it's not possible to do that.

The Minister will be aware that I've made the case on a number of occasions for more fiscal flexibility as we move forward; it's a question I've asked a number of times here in the Senedd. I also agree that the Welsh Government's voice needs to be clearly heard as part of the UK Government's spending review. The Minister told us that the nature of the relationship had improved, that the negotiations were happening at higher levels than was the case earlier on in the pandemic, but it's one thing to have eight or nine quadrilaterals; it's another thing to reach a point, after those meetings, where decisions would be made by the Treasury without giving real consideration or a real voice to the Welsh Government. And, of course, Plaid Cymru and I have regularly argued for the need to provide robust sources of funding to replace European funding. The pledge was that Wales would not receive a penny less, and we're nowhere near that situation as of yet.

So, in terms of the funding that's been spent, reference was made to the £4 billion and the £320 million in addition. Now, I welcome additional funding, of course, in various areas. I'm sure my fellow members in the Plaid Cymru shadow Cabinet will be eager to grapple with a number of elements of what was announced and also announced by the Counsel General in his statement, but there are a few areas where I would like more information. For example, local government was one that seemed to be missing in today's announcement. We know that additional funding has been allocated to local government, but we are still facing a situation where the councils that have been so crucial in the fight against COVID and the response to COVID still face huge financial pressures, and I would like to know, in the context of today's announcement, what kind of level of additional support the Government is likely to be able to provide. In the same vein, I wonder whether the Minister could confirm what the intention is in terms of the publication of another supplementary budget. We were given a date there for next year's budget, but we may be in a position now where we need a supplementary budget too, and confirmation of that would be useful.

There was another element that I would like to get some clarity on, which is around an exit from the European Union without agreement. We're very close to exit date now. The prospects are not looking promising for areas such as Holyhead in my constituency, the port of Fishguard, counties such as Anglesey and Ceredigion, who are on the European frontier and the additional pressures that are likely to come as a result of a disorderly exit—as much order as is possible to imagine at this point. So, what funds does the Government have in reserve—in addition to the pressures as a result of COVID—to deal with that crisis too, which is rushing towards us as we speak?

Photo of Rebecca Evans Rebecca Evans Labour

Shall I, Presiding Officer? 

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative

Sorry. Minister, I had called you, but obviously we are battling with the technology.

Photo of Rebecca Evans Rebecca Evans Labour

Apologies, acting Presiding Officer, I didn't hear you.

Thank you very much to Rhun for those questions, and, as always, for Plaid Cymru's support for the Welsh Government's calls for additional flexibilities. That support is also recognised by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Wales Governance Centre and even, of course, our own Finance Committee, which is a cross-party committee here in the Senedd. So, there is, I think, a wide recognition that what we're calling for is simply common sense in allowing us to exercise good budget management, and I'm very happy to work in partnership with anyone who shares that ambition in terms of increasing the pressure on the UK Government in that regard, which is why it's been such a pleasure to work with my counterparts in Scotland and Northern Ireland on this particular issue. Today, all three of us are making statements to our own individual legislatures on this particular issue, all reinforcing those same points about the importance of flexibilities, and I think that working together on these matters is really important as well.

In terms of a supplementary budget, you would have heard me say to the Conservative spokesperson that it's my intention to bring forward an interim supplementary budget in October, so later on this month, and then we'll ensure that it meets all of the requirements of Standing Orders and, of course, gives three sitting weeks for the Finance Committee to scrutinise it as well. That's, I think, really important, because it does allow that level of transparency for the Senedd and also pulls together all of the actions that we've taken to respond to the more acute end, if you like, of the coronavirus pandemic. It will set out the support that we've made available for local government, which I know Rhun ap Iorwerth is particularly interested in, having raised it with me previously.

We've made available nearly £500 million of additional funding to local government through the local authority hardship fund. That includes £292 million to provide general financial support for local authorities to help them meet the additional cost burden that they're facing as a result of the coronavirus pandemic; £78 million to replace the loss of income that local authorities are experiencing as a result of the pandemic—many operate services such as catering, car parks, leisure centres, cultural services and so on, which have been hard hit, so that's to help them with that loss of income; £62 million to support the provision of social care services, because we know the additional pressure that they're facing as a result, again, of the pandemic; £38 million for free school meals; and £10 million additional funding to support homeless people with a particular aim of ensuring that nobody is sleeping rough during the pandemic.

So, we've made a substantial additional funding package available for local authorities, and have listened to local authorities when they've wanted to work with us to make accessing that fund simpler and quicker and more streamlined, for example changing the way in which we provide additional funding for social services to one that provides a per-head top-up, if you like, for the people who they are supporting, rather than having to undertake a more onerous application to the fund. So, we're in constant discussion with local authorities about the support that they need, and the support there, the aim is for that to see them to year end, but of course we are in constant discussion as to whether additional support might be needed.

In terms of the announcement that has been made today of the additional £340 million for reconstruction, you'll have heard me say in my statement—and the Counsel General has made some references to items in his statement also—about additional funding to step up the construction of council and social housing over and above the funding that I announced when I made my decision about the land transaction tax rates just a few weeks ago, and additional funding to support young people in further education in particular, and those young people who may need additional catch-up support. However, these are the headline figures, if you like, and individual Ministers will be making announcements for those particular matters that sit within their portfolios in the near future. Of course, the overall budget position in terms of where we are now—. So, as I mentioned in the previous response, we think we're at the top end of that £4 billion guarantee, but we're seeking additional clarity on that from the UK Government.

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative 4:57, 6 October 2020

I thank the Minister for the statement. I was encouraged when I saw the title of it, 'Update on fiscal impacts of COVID-19'. I've been pressing her for something along those lines for quite some while. I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed in the contents. I had hoped that we might be able to give estimates or updates about what the impact, for instance, would be on land transaction tax of our having locked down the housing market for harder and longer in Wales than in England, but there came none.

I also wonder: is there a danger that the Welsh Government is exercising power without responsibility? Is the fiscal framework such that it can simply, as the First Minister boasted earlier, lock down earlier and harder and presumably longer than the UK Government does for England, on the basis that the UK Government then has to pay for the economic impact of that differentially in Wales? Is that the strategy? To what extent will we feel any impacts through the Welsh rates of income tax, given the fiscal compact and how that's been negotiated to mitigate changes to that, at least in the near term?

I also think there's a danger to fall back simply on saying that only the UK Government has the macro levers. The Minister said that, but the Conservative spokesperson also concurred, and then boasted about devolving tax-raising powers, having first promised not to do so without a referendum, which wasn't mentioned. But the Welsh Government doesn't want to use those powers, we're told. Are you expecting the UK Government to use those powers? If so, would you think they should raise taxes or cut taxes in light of what is happening?

We borrowed, as a country—the United Kingdom—£36 billion in August 2020. The Office for Budget Responsibility gave its forecasts—this was back in July; it might be higher now, I don't know—but they said this year we were going to be borrowing an estimated £322 billion. That's twice what Gordon Brown borrowed at the worst of the last recession in 2009-10. Is that sustainable? You say the UK Government has the levers, but actually it's just borrowing the money. At the moment, it's managing to get the Debt Management Office to sell those gilts, but largely on the understanding that the Bank of England is going to be printing a similar amount of money to buy them back from investors. At the moment, inflation is quiescent and able to generate that magic money tree, so to speak, but will that continue? And if inflation stops being quiescent, what is going to happen? Do you want to see interest rates be raised by an independent Bank of England, or them stop printing that money in order to stop inflation rising, or do you want to see UK Government order them—and I think this would require the UK Parliament, not just the UK Government—to abandon or at least suspend that inflation target? These are really serious questions, and I don't think it's good enough just to say, 'Ah, well, the UK Government has the macro levers' and for us not to consider them. 

A couple of very specific quick questions, if I may. You mentioned a £4 billion consequential versus £0.5 billion of repurposing. Is that the right balance and order of magnitude less almost what we're doing here, compared to what's being done by the UK Government? And you mentioned an additional £320 million, but you don't then give any split as to whether that's repurposing or consequential, or a combination and, if so, what it is. You mentioned £15 million for digital learning. That's a relatively small sum in the scale of education and what's happened. You mentioned £60 million more for construction, including energy efficiency. I think energy efficiency is one of the best ways of limiting carbon emissions in terms of the impact you have for the amount of money you spend, but you then went on to say you were spending £14 million on decarbonisation. Is that additional to and separate from what you've said about energy efficiency, and shouldn't those two things better be looked at in the round? 

Photo of Rebecca Evans Rebecca Evans Labour 5:02, 6 October 2020

I thank Mark Reckless for his comments. He never enjoys my statements, so I'm not surprised that, today, there was no change in that. But I will say on the matter of land transaction tax, because I know we had the opportunity to rehearse these points in Minister's questions just a couple of weeks ago, it's essentially our understanding, and I think that we are correct in this, that the level of change that we would expect to see to the block grant as a result of the housing market being closed, if you like, for longer here in Wales will just be marginal, and we don't expect to see any major change to the Welsh Government budget as a result of that. Because, of course, the fiscal framework does protect us from overall economic shocks, and this situation has been as difficult in England as it has been in Wales, and we would expect the Office for Budget Responsibility to provide us with updated forecasts, which we will publish alongside our draft budget later on this year. So, we'll have a much clearer picture then. But I don't think the impact for either land transaction tax or landfill disposals tax will be significant in terms of our overall budget. 

And then Mark Reckless also went on to talk about Welsh rates of income tax and exploring why the Welsh Government isn't raising income tax at this time. We made a commitment at the start of this Senedd that we wouldn't raise Welsh rates of income tax over the course of this Senedd term and, given the fact that we're in such a difficult economic situation, I don't think now would be the right time to do so. We have to recognise, I think, the scale of the funding that could be brought to the Welsh Treasury as a result of changes, and a 1p increase on the basic 10p would only bring in £200 million. So, in normal years, £200 million would be a significant amount of money, but we're talking this afternoon about being at the top end of our £4 billion additional guarantee from the UK Government. So, I think that we do need to put things in perspective as well.

The policies of fiscal austerity implemented by the UK coalition Government in 2010 and continued by the subsequent Conservative Governments have delayed and damaged economic recovery, which was the weakest on record. And, obviously, it left public services with insufficient resources to deal with normal demand for routine services, let alone cope with the outbreak of the coronavirus. And, of course, the economy is now in one of the deepest recessions in memory, so it's entirely reasonable, I think, to protect the incomes of households and businesses in these circumstances. And it's our view that the UK Government should continue to borrow while interest rates are lower than they were before the crisis, and are actually lower than the rate of inflation at the moment. It's the only way to really protect the economy's capacity to produce the goods and services that we will need to emerge out of the crisis. So, clearly, introducing further austerity now would be extremely problematic, and the Prime Minister has said that there would be no return to austerity, so, clearly, we would want to be holding him to that. 

And then in terms of repurposing the budget, the £500 million I referred to earlier in my response to Nick Ramsay in terms of the funding we've been able to provide to support businesses—that was funding that was repurposed across Government and the EU funding that was repurposed, but that's not to say that individual Ministers aren't making decisions almost every day in relation to the funding that goes through their department, which is very much focused on our response to the pandemic. I think the repurposed funding only provides I think part of the picture and, of course, the additional funding that has been announced today is over and above all of the other funding that has been announced in these areas. 

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 5:06, 6 October 2020

And, finally, a question from a Member who always enjoys the Minister's statements—Alun Davies. [Laughter.]

Photo of Alun Davies Alun Davies Labour

I'm grateful to you, acting Presiding Officer, although I may not demonstrate that gratitude in my comments. Minister, there's one thing we will always agree on, and that is that you can't trust the Tories. You can't trust the Tories with Wales and you can't trust the Tories with the interests of Wales. I always worry when Ministers rely too much on the largesse of a Conservative Government that essentially, historically or today, has never given a damn about the people we represent. 

And there are two-ish areas that I would like to ask questions of you. First of all, in the fiscal framework you've spoken about the work that you've done with other finance Ministers and the Treasury across the United Kingdom. I've got real concerns about the way the fiscal framework is working at the moment. You've talked about some of the additional flexibilities that you feel you need and require, and I agree with you, I think they are all necessary, but fundamentally, at its heart, the fiscal framework doesn't work in the way that it needs to work, and I think we need to think hard about how the structure of UK finances works. They are not working at the moment, and I don't believe that without structural reform they are ever going to work. So, I'd be grateful, Minister, if you could indicate whether you are working on a replacement for the fiscal framework and how you would see any structural change being taken forward, and whether you've started to have any of these conversations with your colleagues in other Governments.

The second point I would like to make is this one: we do have significant financial powers at our disposal in this place. Nick Ramsay was absolutely right in his analysis of where we are and the powers available to the Welsh Government and to the Senedd. And it is right and proper that we look at those powers and we examine the use of those powers. You've referred to tax powers; I think the Welsh Government is wrong on taxation, frankly. I've made that point before and I'll make it again: I don't think we can realise our ambitions and the vision that was laid out very well by the Counsel General earlier with Tory levels of taxation, which is essentially what we've got. And so I think we've got to think hard about how we structure that and how we take that forward. But how else, Minister, have you examined the use of fiscal powers and the financial tools at your disposal to ensure that our communities that are suffering in an appalling way at the moment have the resources, and the Welsh Government has the resources, to fundamentally change the future of our country? Thank you.

Photo of Rebecca Evans Rebecca Evans Labour 5:09, 6 October 2020

I thank Alun Davies for raising both of these issues, and I think the real issue with the fiscal framework is less the framework itself and more the statement of funding policy that sits underneath it. That is the area in which we have the greatest level of concern, really, in terms of the way in which the UK Government is applying it. Colleagues will have heard me talk in the Chamber before about the concerns we had about the additional £1 billion for Northern Ireland—not begrudging a penny to Northern Ireland but recognising that that was a breach of the statement of funding policy, whereby the Welsh Government should have had a fair share of that. And also the decisions that the UK Government took in respect of teachers' pensions, which again had knock-on impacts for the Welsh Government's budget, but there was no funding attached to that. Again, that was a breach of the statement of funding policy. So, this is all, in part I think at least, tied up with the work that is going on on inter-governmental relations, in terms of how we can improve the structures that sit alongside the relationships that we have with the UK Government.

But in terms of the specific statement of funding policy, we're looking to make—. Well, I would like to make some changes to that as part of the work that is going on with the comprehensive spending review. So, that's the appropriate time to take those opportunities to review the statement of funding policy. That review has started at official level, but I think that progress is slower than we would have liked. But, certainly, those discussions have started, and I would like to make some progress through the comprehensive spending review.

And I know that Alun Davies has expressed his different views on how we should be using our tax levers at this point, but I would point to the tax policy work plan, which I published in the last couple of weeks, which sets out our priorities in terms of exploring Welsh taxes and how we might use them moving up into the Senedd elections next year. Then, of course, it will be for all of us to set out our proposals for the Welsh public following that.

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 5:11, 6 October 2020

Thank you, Minister.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the four motions under items 6, 7, 8 and 9—the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) Regulations 2020—will be grouped for debate, but with separate votes. I do not see an objection.