We therefore move to item 5, which is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport on funding for buses, and I call the Deputy Minister, Lee Waters. 

Thank you. I would like update Members on the arrangements for public transport during the firebreak lockdown that the First Minister announced yesterday and to answer questions on the implications for our overall approach.

From Friday, we're asking people to stay at home. Non-essential retail will be closed, people will be expected to work from home where possible, and visits to other households will be prohibited, except in limited circumstances. Unless we have an essential reason for going out, we all need to play our part in disrupting the coronavirus chains of transmission.

The Welsh Government will make sure that buses and trains continue to operate in peak hours to enable key workers to do their jobs, but outside of the main commuting times, we have asked Transport for Wales and bus operators to reduce services for the lockdown period. This is not straightforward due to de-registering routes, rostering staff and interlinking services. This was why we briefed operators last Friday that we were considering introducing measures. We did so in good faith, and I'm disappointed that was breached.

For the lockdown period, services will be similar to those in August. Passengers need to know that late cancellations and changes to timetabled services are likely, and those who must use public transport should check directly with operators before travelling.

Across the world, fewer people are using mass transport. In Wales, we have seen an unprecedented, sharp and severe drop in bus passenger numbers, causing the loss of almost all ticket revenue. Although demand had gradually returned, revenues are likely to remain low for the foreseeable future as a result of social distancing requirements limiting capacity. This clearly has significant implications for the viability of bus companies, especially as the UK Government brings the furlough scheme to a premature end.

Following the First Minister’s announcement of a short firebreak, the economic resilience fund is being enhanced. It will have £300 million available to provide financial support to businesses. Both bus and coach companies are eligible for the economic resilience fund. Indeed, many have already benefited from previous phases of the ERF. We are also working with several operators on decarbonising and modernising their fleets, and this is something I want to see more of in the future.

The Welsh Government has stepped in to help bus operators meet the challenges of coronavirus. During the first peak of the virus, we were subsidising every bus passenger to the tune of £30 per head. Had we not done so, commercial bus operators would have gone out of business and people left stranded. Our support has been vital in ensuring that key workers can get to work, schools could re-open, and people who rely on our bus networks have been able to access shops and key services.

Transport for Wales's surveys of bus users show that 78 per cent of people who travel by bus do not have access to a private car. This includes disproportionately high numbers of younger, older, disabled, ethnic minorities, women, and those on low incomes. Our support for buses is a matter of social justice.

We recently announced a package of £84.6 million of funding to help maintain and develop service levels for the rest of this financial year. This year, in total, our support for bus services will stand at £140 million. This is a significant investment at a time when public funding is under unprecedented pressure, and this is going to be difficult to maintain, so we have to have reform.

The existing ecosystem within which bus services are funded, delivered and managed is complicated by a deregulated, fragmented and commercially motivated market. Our funding is paid to around 80 bus operators through 22 local authorities via a number of funding streams and contracting mechanisms, which have grown in scale and complexity over the last 30 years. Despite the majority of their income coming from the public sector, individual operators determine routes, frequencies and fares, while customers are faced with services that often don't integrate with other modes, timetables that don't connect with other routes, and tickets that won't work with other operators. This can't go on.

In return for this funding, we want a new deal for passengers. We'd like to do this in co-operation with the operators and we are working with them to build a partnership that delivers our wider objectives—one that gives taxpayers more influence over routes and standards, and allows management and integration across transport modes, including smart ticketing, co-ordinated routing, and integrated timetabling. It needs to be a fair deal for passengers. For our investment, we want to be able to secure a multimodal network that is better able to match supply to demand. We want to be able to flex services based on passenger need and driven by data. We want this to be delivered regionally, and shaped by our decarbonisation and equality priorities.

It is the most radical intervention in the bus network since deregulation over 30 years ago. We are still living with the legacy of this misconceived privatisation project. The legislative framework that remains continues to be a barrier to achieving a joined-up transport system. As Members know, we had intended to bring forward a Bill to the Senedd to modernise it, but the impact of coronavirus means that is no longer possible. We hope the next Welsh Government is able to take that forward, and in the meantime, we are looking to maximise our other levers to achieve our objectives. Members across the Senedd are committed to ensuring social justice and tackling climate change. Buses are a key part of delivering on these goals, and I will keep Members updated on the work we are doing to give our constituents the public transport system they deserve. Diolch.

Can I thank the Deputy Minister for his statement this afternoon and also for his advance copy of the statement as well, which I'm grateful for? Deputy Minister, I have to say, I am disappointed by the statement this afternoon, only because I was expecting more detail this afternoon. There isn't much concrete detail in what you've outlined this afternoon. This is an area where you've been talking about this since the summer. It just seems that the statement this afternoon—it's talking about aspirations, and you've reiterated what they are and they're all well and good, but it doesn't really have any particular flesh on the bones of what we would expect this afternoon. So, can I ask when you do expect the kind of detail that we would expect to be announced on a statement like this to come forward, so that can be scrutinised appropriately? The kind of detail that I would have liked to have seen this afternoon—and I will ask you about it now—is in terms of when we'll find out what the new approach you will take is, how it will be administrated, and details on the structures and approaches to planning and funding bus services.

You talked about funding this afternoon, Deputy Minister, and you talked about funding available through the economic resilience fund, but can you detail any specific funding that's going to the bus industry specifically in regard to the national Wales two-week lockdown? And also, at what level will payments to operators be maintained for school contracts in particular? Also, perhaps if I could add to this another aspiration that I know you have talked about previously, in terms of 30 per cent homeworking. I wonder if you could, Deputy Minister, this afternoon, talk about the consequences of that aspiration on the bus industry in terms of how that is influencing the development and the new approach to planning and funding bus services. And also how those new arrangements in terms of 30 per cent working from home aspirations—how the bus service industry will be supported, either through a potential loss or a change in demand, whichever you think is relevant. And finally, Deputy Minister, if I could ask how the crisis affected the decarbonisation of bus services, and the target of all buses to be zero emissions by 2028. Do operators have funds available to invest in new buses? How is the Welsh Government's approach to funding buses and decarbonising transport considering that in particular? 

Thank you. I'm not entirely clear what additional detail Russell George feels that I'm denying the Senedd. I do have a two-hour session coming up in front of the economy committee, which I'm greatly looking forward to, so there'll be plenty of opportunity to go through any detailed questions that he has then. Certainly, there's no attempt, on my part, to conceal anything. Some of this, by definition, we are working through in partnership with the bus industry as we speak. So, it's not an attempt to hide anything, it's simply that we are working in partnership, as I said we want to do to be able to reach the details. But the outline, I think, we've made very clear, and we've also made clear the funding we've provided, namely £140 million this year to do that, and we want to deliver it through Transport for Wales on a regional basis. And I think I did set out in the statement, which Russell George mentioned he'd had advance sight of, the principles that would guide that approach. So, perhaps we can continue this conversation in committee, or if you'd like to write—I'd be happy to try and help him as far as I can.

In terms of the funding to operators during the lockdown, we are continuing the funding that we have in place. Even though we are expecting and requesting services to be wound down, we're not going to be reducing the funding that we are making available to them. We simply think that it sends all the wrong signals to be requiring people to stay at home, whilst continuing to run the same frequency of buses as we did before. We knew from the first lockdown that the sight of empty buses rattling around the streets sent a contradictory signal, and we didn't want to see that repeated. 

He asked about the consequences of homeworking, and the 30 per cent aspirational target that we've set for that being a permanent fixture. As I mentioned in the statement, across the world passengers are voting with their feet by staying away from mass transport because of concern about the virus. That's not a consequence of any Government decision, but, obviously, the Government requirements around social distancing and indeed the lockdown compound that. We would expect, under the homeworking regime that we've talked about, flexibility to be the new norm. And flexibility will involve, in some cases, working from home, and in other cases, working from co-working hubs in nearby town centres. So, there may well still be a requirement for people to use public transport to get to those town centres, rather than taking a long commute into Cardiff or Swansea or nearby cities.

So, we still think there is a role for a strong public transport system, and it's certainly our intention to continue the development of the metro and with other investments that we've set out. But, in the spirit of flexibility, we do need to change the way that the public transport system works, and our demand-responsive bus programme through the Fflecsi initiative, which is now being piloted in several parts of Wales, including at scale, increasingly, in Newport, does show very promising early signs that a bus service that is more nimble and able to respond to more granular demand, rather than just the timetabled service, does meet the needs of the times. 

I think his final question was will the bus industry be supported through that change in demand. Well, this is one of these paradoxes, really, that I alluded to in my statement. We often hear from the bus industry how they are commercial operators, but now we're hearing the demands for further public funding, and it's difficult to square the two. They're commercial when it suits them, and they want more of our money when it suits them too. I think we need the new deal I talked about, which is recognising they provide a key public service and that will require ongoing subsidy, but in return for that ongoing subsidy, we need to have a greater strategic partnership with them, to make sure that our key priorities are delivered. And that's the conversation that we're having with them now. So, yes, there will be ongoing support, but it comes at a price.

I thank the Deputy Minister very much for his statement. I just want to begin by saying that we, in this part of the Chamber, believe that the response to the two-week firebreak is completely appropriate; it seems entirely the right thing to do and we're very happy to offer the Minister our support on that. In that context—and we don't know, of course, whether such actions may be necessary in future—can the Deputy Minister confirm that bus providers will be eligible to apply for the new round of ERF, even if they have already received payments from previous rounds? I take it from his statement that that is the case, but there seems to be some confusion out there in the sector.

I was pleased to hear the Deputy Minister refer to the work on decarbonisation. Following up a little bit, perhaps, on Russell George's question, can he tell us a little bit more about the nature of this work, specifically how the Welsh Government is supporting it? Obviously, actions like completely repurchasing fleets are very expensive, and I'd be interested to know what support might be available to the sector, fully taking on board the point the Minister makes, of course, about 'something for something' in this case, and that if the Government is supporting the sector, the sector needs to deliver for the public.

I want to agree very much with the Deputy Minister's comments that the support for bus services is a matter of social justice; it is often the people who can least afford other modes of transport who depend on our bus services. I'd also agree that the current mode isn't sustainable, that the current system doesn't deliver well and that we can't continue in a situation with individual operators determining routes based on what suits them, rather than what suits the public. I'm sure we will have many examples from our own constituencies and regions. Just this week, I've had correspondence that I think the Deputy Minister will be very familiar with about the withdrawal of a direct bus from Trimsaran to Kidwelly, for example, which is very difficult for people when they're getting their medical care in that community. Things like many communities not having bus services at all on a Sunday—Llangennech is one of those, and I could give numerous examples that have come into my inbox from Powys and Pembrokeshire over the last two years.

So, it is clear that we will support the Minister's desire to change this. I'm obviously very supportive of the Deputy Minister working with providers on this in a collaborative manner. But, I wonder whether the Deputy Minister can tell us today, if that collaborative approach isn't successful, and given what he's already said about our living with the legacy of a seriously misconceived privatisation, and I'd concur with his comments in that regard—will he consider alternative models like shared ownership, not-for-profit companies, looking at where local government have been able to maintain bus services that they own or part own? Will he, potentially, consider renationalisation, if that proves to be necessary, seeking any additional powers from the UK Government if that was required?

Thank you very much. Clearly, there's a great deal of shared interest and agreement in the comments that Helen Mary just outlined, which I welcomed. In terms of her questions, yes, the new round of ERF will be available, as in previous rounds, which did help bus and coach companies, subject, of course, to the eligibility criteria. But, in principle, that is our expectation: that bus companies can and will be helped through that.

In terms of the decarb, we are working with operators that have electric bus grants from the Department for Transport, and we've certainly helped local authorities with those bids, and we've been providing, I think, Cardiff Bus with some support for electric buses. That is, I think, one of the areas where we are keen to do more, recognising that one of the challenges we have within Government in supporting the bus industry is that in the transport department capital funding has historically been easier to get our hands on than revenue funding. So, obviously, a way that we can help to improve the transport offer through capital—helping to buy buses, rather than funding to run services—is easier to do. 

The Member mentions some services in my own constituency—Llangennech and Trimsaran. This will be a familiar tale to Members across the country: that the ramping back up of bus services has, obviously, been problematic, with bus drivers still on furlough, with the impact that the social distancing requirement has on the viability of services and the whole range of practical barriers that have been put in place that local authorities have, in terms of their own officer time, to make the changes necessary. So, that is obviously a familiar picture. When we've been in half measures over the summer, it has not been possible—nor, indeed, viable—because the ticket revenue collapsed, for a full return to services. Obviously, as we move out of winter into spring and summer, we would hope to re-ramp that back up, so that as many services are able to be returned as possible.

She asked about different ownership models—shared ownership and not-for-profit. Certainly, one of the things that we'd hoped to bring forward in the Bill that we've had to postpone would be to allow local authorities to run their own bus companies, which is something we were very keen on. So, as I say, I am hoping that the next Welsh Government will be able to pick that back up, because that, I think, is a shared aspiration.

In the meantime, we are looking at the role that Transport for Wales could have potentially as a direct provider. There's no reason why, in principle—. We have there a model, an arm's-length body, that could directly run services if that was necessary, and that's something that we are looking at in partnership with local authorities on a regional footing. So, I hope that I've covered the questions that were posed there.

I'm grateful to the Deputy Minister as well for the statement he's made to us this afternoon. I was especially grateful to hear him state so clearly that support for buses is a matter of social justice for this Government, and I think that that is absolutely essential, particularly when you're considering some of the communities that many of us will represent. Many of the communities I represent in Blaenau Gwent are, for parts of the day at least, cut off from services—from public services, from shopping opportunities, for example. We need to ensure that we have a robust public transport system, which is going to be rooted in buses for almost everybody and is able to link people, their communities and public services and shopping and the rest of it.

The Minister will be aware that the Grange hospital in Gwent next month. Again, this is something that we very much welcome, but we need to ensure that there is public transport available for people to access the Grange, and to do so not only during the day, but also at visiting times during the evening as well.

Can I say this to the Minister? In taking forward these issues, I welcome the money that's been spent—I think that it's £140 million that is being spent to support services. I agree with your analysis that 80 operators in 22 local authority areas is too complex a policy environment to actually make a difference, and we do need to see radical reform of that—both reform in terms of local government and in terms of how we ensure that we have the bus services that we require. I very much agree with what the Minister said about that.

But also, can we ensure that we have a public transport network serving all of our communities, which includes buses but also taxis as well? In some places, the numbers that we are talking about are not great, but we do need to have frequency of services as well. So, I think there is a whole range of issues there that affect places like Blaenau Gwent, but that he will also recognise in Llanelli, and Members will also recognise in Deeside and elsewhere as well.

So, I hope that the approach he's taking through managing these matters in the next few months, as we run to an election, will ensure that we're able to say to people that this Welsh Government regards the right to public transport, the right to connectivity, the right to connection with services and retail as things that we will not only invest in, but will ensure works for everybody.

I think that buses have been a neglected part of our transport system, and they do carry a huge number of journeys. The figure I mentioned, to reiterate the social justice point, which I think is wort repeating—. The Transport for Wales surveys of bus users show that 78 per cent of people who travel by bus do not have access to a private car. I think that that is a staggering figure, which shows how important the bus network is for people who do not have an alternative. Too often we make assumptions when we're planning services—and Alun Davies mentioned the new hospital, the Grange, there—that people will simply hop into a car to get to it, but we know there are significant parts of our communities that that is not a realistic option for. We need to make sure that there is a quality alternative for people, which is desirable and entices people out of cars to use public transport. It's not something that's left just for people who don't have an alternative, but becomes the mode of choice for people for the majority of journeys that they make. That's entirely normal in other parts of Europe and it needs to become normal in our country, but we are some way from that at the moment.

Just specifically on the issue of the question of the Grange, which Alun Davies has mentioned to me previously: I'm pleased to be able to confirm that the health board have now confirmed that there will be a public bus service to the site upon the hospital opening in November. Buses will drop off at a dedicated point at the new hospital. There will be a bus service between Newport via Caerleon, Ponthir and Cwmbran, which is also scheduled to stop in Newport and Cwmbran. And also, as I mentioned the demand-responsive service earlier, the Fflecsi, which we are looking to start in Blaenau Gwent, first of all with two service areas in Ebbw Fawr and Ebbw Fach—that also will be able to respond to people's flexible demands to be able to go to the hospital. So, I think there's more to do there, but I think that at least puts in the bones of a service to make sure that, when the hospital opens in November, there will be a bus route.

Finally, the point on taxis is an important one, because I think I mentioned in the statement that one of the things we want to get to is a multimodal, strategic, planned network. Clearly, taxis are one of the modes—a public transport option that we need to see alongside buses, trains and active travel, to make sure they link up. That's something that's been hard to do, and that's something that we want to make sure that Transport for Wales has very firmly on its to-do list. Clearly, again, the aspiration to bring in legislation to reform taxis has also had to be delayed because of COVID, but that is also something that we're continuing to work on, should the next Welsh Government want to bring that forward.

Can I thank the Deputy Minister for his statement this afternoon? I believe the Welsh Government more than adequately funds bus companies in normal times. COVID, of course, may need extra funding in very targeted scenarios. However, I feel there is considerable waste in the resources allocated to the bus industry, where we see multiple buses, perhaps just minutes apart, on identical or near-identical routes, each carrying a tiny number of passengers. Perhaps we should go further than this statement envisages.

I know the Deputy Minister and indeed the Minister keep an open mind as to how the whole provision of public transport is delivered, and I share their deep concerns on the whole subject of deregulation, and would wholeheartedly support the implementation of a local authority or other public body-run bus network, but I also believe that we should seriously explore the possibility of a dial-up public transport option. All too often, even in normal times, we witness 50 to 60-seater buses running with just one or two passengers. Would it not be far more economical to introduce fleets of specially adapted minibuses, carrying just four to six passengers on a dial-up basis? These buses could be all electric, given their size and relatively short distances travelled. The community bus operation could work as a blueprint for this innovative transport system.

Would the Minister, and indeed the Deputy Minister, not agree with me that we cannot go on subsiding the present bus regime, which is uneconomical, costly and environmentally damaging? I know the Deputy Minister is deeply committed to getting people out of cars and onto public transport—or, he would probably say, better still onto bicycles. However, given the fact that most people do not completely share his enthusiasm for this particular mode of transport, I'm sure all of us would favour a public transport system based on the electric vehicle. So, would the Minister and, of course, the Deputy Minister, explore this green, cheap and practical option to the public transport system we run today?

I heard David Rowlands talking about multiple buses turning up in quick succession carrying a small number of passengers. It's rather reminiscent of all the little parties he's been a member of. But there is, of course—. The situation he talks of is a symptom of the problem we have with our public transport system. In a non-regulated environment, of course, anyone can set up a bus company and they can run the routes that they think are most profitable. So, you tend to have, on a small number of routes, a lot of competition on a lot of services because there's profit to be made, but not being able to cross-subsidise other routes to form a coherent network, and that's precisely why we wanted to bring the legislation forward, and that's precisely why we're now using the opportunity presented to us to try and use our funding to get maximum leverage to try and achieve that objective through other means. So, I completely agree with him on that.

Similarly, on the dial-up buses, as he talks of them, the terms may be different, but it's the same thing. We talk about demand-responsive transport, which is the same thing. And we are trialling, across five areas now, in Newport, Cardiff, Rhondda, Prestatyn and Denbigh, our Fflecsi service, run through Transport for Wales with local operators, which is supported by a website, an app and a telephone line, which replaces some scheduled local bus services with more flexible services that can pick up and drop off in an area by request, rather than at fixed bus stops at fixed times, and the feedback has been very positive where this has been trialled. As I say, in Newport we are looking now to increase that, and in Blaenau Gwent as well. And that is dipping our toe in the water of that particular model that David Rowlands talks about, and I think the aspiration for having a network of small, electric minibuses effectively, whizzing around picking up people at times that suit them to take them to places they want to go, is exactly what we are working towards. So, I hope I can give him some reassurance that we are, at least on that, in agreement.

Can I thank you, Deputy Minister, and express my appreciation for the support given by Welsh Government over recent months to maintain an essential network of bus services in our communities?

The decision to impose a firebreak—we all know that these challenges are going to continue for many months to come, and, of course, as you've outlined, in the short term, we'll be returning to public transport for essential workers and journeys only. But even before the firebreak, the pandemic had already impacted, as you've outlined, on many aspects of the bus network, including reducing the number of services. And like others, I've had similar situations in my constituency in Abercanaid and Aberfan, and the fact that you can get a bus to Prince Charles Hospital at the start of visiting time, but you can't get a bus at the end of visiting time—those kinds of things; the revenue streams and financial assumptions of local authorities and bus companies, including departure charges from bus stations, for example. In the bigger picture, post firebreak, we shouldn't lose sight, either, of what that means to the most vulnerable in our communities, particularly older people, for whom I know buses are often a lifeline, and I know that you're very alert to that. The reality is, however, that however much Government subsidises the bus companies—you have alluded to this in your statement—they are first and foremost private companies operating for profit, and if profit can't be made, they'll walk away leaving those in need of those services high and dry, and that remains the legacy of the privatisation of the 1980s.

So, while I very much welcome what you have announced today, are you confident that the measures outlined will be enough to sustain these essential services and that bus companies, more to the point, will co-operate? And I guess in line with the question that Helen Mary Jones asked earlier, if not, what is the alternative to ensure that bus services are maintained as public services for the benefit of the community and not for the profit of a private company?

I was going to ask you whether there was, for example, any scope for Transport for Wales to provide a more sustainable future out of the current uncertainties, but I think—

Dawn—

—you answered that in your answer to Helen Mary. Thank you. 

Before I call the Minister to reply, I'm being as kind as possible to the Labour Members, because it's important that backbenchers do get called, but these questions are turning into fireside chats, rather than precise questions, and we don't need the whole history of how you formed your views—just get to the question. Minister.

Well, in that spirit, Mr Melding, I shall put my pipe away; we'll have no more fireside chats here.

Just to answer the nub of Dawn Bowden's point—. I must pay tribute to her for the work she has done as a member of the Valleys taskforce, chairing the transport sub-group of the taskforce, in helping us to develop the demand-responsive model, and the challenge that she has brought to the Government in that role has been instrumental in allowing us to bring that forward. But she is right that the current system has been dysfunctional. It requires a significant amount of public investment without the full return on investment that we'd expect for our public values and for serving our communities, and that's why we're determined to bring about change. As I say, our first route has been denied to us, but there are other ways around it. And I think the option, if that doesn't work, of a greater role for Transport for Wales as a direct provider of buses, as an embryonic national bus company for Wales, certainly is there. But we'll try the partnership route first and see where that gets us.

Thank you, acting Llywydd. Some short questions, Minister, in the light of the acting Llywydd's comments on time. Firstly, I welcome this opportunity now for a much greater regulation and planning of the bus service, which we very much want. I, for example, cannot travel from Tonyrefail to Pontypridd without having to change buses. That makes absolutely no sense. If I want to go into Cardiff, I have to take a bus that takes an hour and a half to get there—so, at peak times, the need for direct buses, fast buses that don't, basically, go around every single potential stop there could be, to get you to work on time as efficiently as possible.

And the other issue is, of course, as I'm sure many of the Senedd Members have had, representations from people going to work who have difficulties accessing buses at the right time, going early enough, able to get them back, to fit in with the nature of a lot of work—a lot of hospitality work, for example—that works at very awkward hours. I'm just wondering what the mechanism will be to feed in those examples and those representations from communities where we know something better can actually be dealt with with an integrated bus service than what exists at the moment. What would be the mechanism for ensuring communities have a real voice in the types of bus service that they want?

Well, just on that last point, we are developing sophisticated forecasting and scenario-testing modelling to allow data-based judgments to be made about where to put investments and where there are gaps in provision. That is something Transport for Wales has been working on, and this is why we want to move on to a regional footing for the delivery of these services, because that gives us the greatest opportunity to have a joined-up approach and to make the most of the limited resource that we have. And involving communities in that, clearly, is important and Transport for Wales do have a cadre of community outreach professionals whose job it is to make those connections. And that's certainly something we've been hearing, through the Valleys taskforce—the need for people to feel that the system works for them. And, in too many cases, it doesn't.

I think there is—. There's a question for all Members here, because I think all of us want more—more of everything—and the public finance situation we face is grave and it's not likely to improve any time soon. We're working on a Wales transport strategy, which we're hoping to publish within the next six months, and that needs to deliver on the decarbonisation agenda that we've set out. But it also is a question for us all about where we put the resources we have between road, rail, bus and active travel. Where is the right split of spend, based on the mode that we have? Now, at the moment, the amount we spend on bus is smaller than the modal share. That is to say, if you were to divide the pie into slices of how many passengers use particular bits, and then what percentage of that pie is put to each mode, then bus is currently underserved, but rail is dramatically overserved. You know, rail is something—we all have an enthusiasm for having a modern railway system. Rail is very, very expensive and carries relatively few passengers, compared to the amount of money we put into it. Similarly, we've been spending generously on roads for many years, which has denuded other forms of transport of the investment they need to give a realistic alternative to it.

So, I think all of us, as we come to developing that transport strategy and then making budget decisions based on it, need to confront the fact that, if we want the sort of public transport system Mick Antoniw talks about, then we need to prepare to make the choices of where the resources go.

And finally, Jack Sargeant.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister. Minister, as you know, I'm very passionate about the Welsh Government delivering on a north-east Wales metro, and buses are going to play an integral part in that. My communities want buses for people, not for profit. So, Minister, how will your new rules overturn those set by the Tories, which devastated our rural communities, and ensure that places like Treuddyn and Penyffordd and Caergwrle get the buses and bus routes residents need to go about their daily lives?

Well, briefly, these are the discussions we're having with the industry now. I think, from the tone of the statement this afternoon, we are sending a strong signal to them that it's no longer good enough simply to be asking for more money and, every time we ask for something in return, to tell us to jump in a lake, which has been a little bit of the conversations we had with some of the operators. That's a relationship that has changed and needs to continue changing. We expect our objectives to be delivered for the resources that we put in. There still remain legislative complications, because these still are, by law, commercial and market-driven issues, and, while that remains on the statute book, it does constrain our ability to deliver everything we want to deliver. But we're determined to use the leverage we do have to get the maximum return for the objectives that we share.

Thank you, Minister.