Group 6: Local authority meetings (Amendments 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 77, 12, 13, 14, 15, 118, 16, 17, 18, 70, 4, 5, 50, 51, 52, 72, 53)

– in the Senedd at 6:15 pm on 10 November 2020.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:15, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

The next group of amendments is group 6, which relates to local authority meetings. Amendment 6 is the lead amendment and I call on the Minister to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Minister.

(Translated)

Amendment 6 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Julie James Julie James Labour 6:16, 10 November 2020

Diolch, Llywydd. Before speaking to the individual amendments, I would like to provide some context, as I am very aware that it is not usual to bring forward amendments of this nature at Stage 3. Llywydd, I'd also like to object for the length of time this is going to take in advance.

The group represents a comprehensive package of provisions, comprising of four building blocks, intended to equip local authorities with modern and robust ways of working. The pandemic has exposed how out-of-date and restrictive some of the provisions are. Indeed, many of the requirements are set out in primary legislation that dates back as far back as 1960, and reflects a world and ways of doing business that predate the internet and electronic communication.

In response to the pandemic, we made emergency regulations in April so as to allow local government bodies to meet remotely and publish meeting documents electronically. These bodies would not have been able to meet legally and safely, or continue their business during the pandemic, without this intervention. Warmly welcomed by stakeholders, these regulations have resulted in other benefits. Local government bodies have been able to work more flexibly and efficiently and decision-making processes have been made accessible to a much wider audience. In addition, some bodies have actually reported increased attendance at meetings.

However, these emergency regulations are time limited and only apply to meetings until 1 May 2021. Without any further legislative change, local authorities will have to revert to the pre-pandemic regime, losing the benefits they have experienced. The amendments in this group build on the changes made by those regulations, bringing meeting procedures into the twenty-first century and putting in place mechanisms that allow the new provisions to be reviewed, scrutinised and updated when needed. 

These amendments also provide for local authority meetings being broadcast electronically so that individuals are able to follow proceedings that will impact on the services they rely on. 

Turning, therefore, to the amendments, I call on Members to support amendment 15, which represents the first building block. The Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011 put in place arrangements for members to attend meetings of principal councils remotely. However, a key aspect of the arrangement was that 30 per cent of members had to be present at the same location for the meeting to be quorate.

As introduced, section 48 of the Bill amended some aspects of the 2011 Measure. However, in light of recent circumstances, this does not go far enough, especially given that most meetings are now taking place entirely from living rooms, home offices and other such places. In addition, the provisions of the 2011 Measure would only extend to principal councils and not to bodies such as national parks and community councils, who have found the flexibility afforded by the regulations invaluable.

Amendment 15 inserts a new section into the Bill relating to attendance at local authority meetings, in effect providing for what is commonly referred to as remote attendance. These new provisions cover the wider local government family, including national park authorities, fire and rescue authorities, community councils, or a port health authority for a port health district in Wales.

Under the new provisions, authorities must make and publish arrangements to facilitate meetings, including fully virtual meetings, semi-virtual or hybrid meetings and, of course, physical meetings. Authorities must ensure that every meeting covered by these provisions is capable of being held virtually. However, not all meetings will have to be held virtually; that will be a matter for local determination.

Authorities will be required to have regard to guidance, which will include the expectation that individuals' personal circumstances should be considered when deciding on the type of meetings to be held. This will be a big step forward to support greater diversity amongst elected members.

Meetings will be subject to the minimum condition that the equipment or other facility must enable all persons to speak to and be heard by each other. The exception to this standard is where a meeting is required to be broadcast under the Bill. In these instances, all persons must be able to see and be seen by each other in addition to being able to speak to and be heard by each other. 

The Welsh Ministers may, by regulations, add to, amend or omit conditions or subject a joint board to the provision. These regulations are subjected to the affirmative Senedd procedure by amendment 51.

I do not support amendment 118, which would require authorities to prepare and publish on their websites the voting procedures to be adopted if the equipment fails when members are attending meetings remotely. I agree that voting arrangements and how the impact of any technical disruptions on those arrangements will be managed should be clearly set out in advance of the meetings taking place. However, experience over the past few months has seen local authorities establish the necessary measures to address these situations, and I believe this should be a matter for local determination. I will also be ensuring this matter is considered when developing guidance. In addition, this amendment alters section 4 of the 2011 Measure, which will be omitted as a consequence of the new section inserted by amendment 15. I ask Members to reject amendment 118.

Photo of Julie James Julie James Labour 6:20, 10 November 2020

The second building block is provided for by amendment 70, which substitutes a new Schedule 4 to the Bill and amends provisions in Part 5A of, and Schedule 12 to the Local Government Act 1972 and in the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960. Part 1 of Schedule 4 is based on the general principles that certain documents relating to meetings must be published electronically and in a timely way, so that the public can follow the decision-making process. Electronic publication will complement and augment an individual's right to attend a meeting, whether in person or through remote means.

Paragraph 17 of Schedule 4 amends section 232 of the 1972 Act so that any public notice required to be published by a local authority in Wales must be published electronically, unless specific provision is made elsewhere in legislation. Subparagraph 4 provides the Welsh Ministers with a regulation-making power to make provision about the manner of giving the public notices that are required to be given by a local authority. Part 2 of Schedule 4 provides for amendments consequential to the new section inserted by amendment 15.

The third building block is the regulation-making powers provided for in amendments 17 and 18. Amendment 17 supports the main changes made by Schedule 4. The new power will allow Welsh Ministers to make regulations about the conduct of local authority meetings, meeting documents and about the publication of information. The power will provide the flexibility for the new arrangements to be reviewed and updated on a timely basis. This power is necessary to ensure these arrangements remain workable as technology and other matters evolve.

Amendment 18 is also a regulation-making power that will allow Ministers to make regulations about community meetings. The current provisions are also set out in the 1972 Act. The flexibility of the regulation-making power will also allow us to undertake a much-needed review and modernisation of the arrangements for such meetings. The current provisions are very outdated and there is no reason for them to be prescribed in primary legislation in the sort of detail that is much better provided for in regulations. For example, the only option for community meetings at the moment is physical attendance by an elector. 

The regulation-making powers in amendments 17 and 18 can only be effective and achieve the purpose of providing local government with an effective, transparent and flexible governance system on the same basis as other public services if they enable Welsh Ministers to amend relevant primary legislation. All these powers are therefore subject to the affirmative procedure through amendments 50, 51 and 52, whilst amendment 53 provides for the necessary coming-into-force provisions.

Amendments 4, 5 and 16 are technical amendments consequential on other amendments in the group. Amendments 4 and 5 alter the overview section for Part 3 to reflect the section inserted by amendments 17 and 18, whilst amendment 16 alters section 50 of the Bill to reflect that Schedule 4 comprises two parts.

The final building block relates to the electronic broadcasting of meetings and is provided for in amendments 6 to 10, 12 to 14 and 77. The electronic broadcast of meetings will enable individuals who cannot attend meetings to see and hear the proceedings that effect their lives and witness the decisions made and position taken by their representatives. At its heart, these provisions are about the transparency of local democracy. These amendments all refine section 47 of the Bill and have been informed by the concerns raised during Stage 1 regarding the wide scope of the broadcasting provisions. Accordingly, the amendments remove the requirement for all meetings of a principal council to be broadcast live. Instead, the proposed amendments will require principal councils to make and publish arrangements to secure that only full council meetings of principal councils must be broadcast. The default position is that full council meetings must be broadcast live, subject to any exceptions in regulations. This will enable every member of the community to see and hear the contributions made by their local councillors in full council meetings. If arrangements are revised or replaced, principal councils must publish the new arrangements.

The amendments will enable the Welsh Ministers to make regulations to add a range of meetings to the list and, importantly, amendment 77 will enable the Welsh Ministers to make further provision in connection with the broadcast of proceedings in regulations. For example, regulations will be able to specify which meetings must be broadcast live and which may be recorded live and broadcast at a later date. They will also be able to specify the period for which the electronic broadcasts must be retained.

As drafted for introduction, these provisions enabled the Welsh Minister to specify in regulations that the proceedings at meetings of fire and rescue authorities and national park authorities, including their committees or sub-committees, were to be broadcast. This power is retained and expanded to also cover proceedings at meetings of joint committees of one or more principal councils, one or more FRAs or NPAs and also joint boards.

And finally, amendment 72 is a minor technical amendment removing a reference to a provision that is redundant as a result of the changes to Schedule 4, as inserted by amendment 70. Diolch.

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative 6:25, 10 November 2020

Well, if Members of the Senedd believe that members of councils in remote attendance at meeting should be enabled to vote in the event that facilities enabling remote attendance fail, then they must vote for amendment 118, which places a duty on principal councils to prepare and publish a procedure for this. The amendment also voids any meeting where technical problems prevent voting unless an alternative voting procedure has been agreed. It is, of course, important that elected members are able to fully discharge their duties so they're given equal opportunities to influence decision making. This amendment, therefore, seeks to ensure that alternative emergency voting procedures are put in place to ensure that all members are able to discharge their duties, whether they're attending a meeting physically or remotely, just like us. This amendment complements the Welsh Government's amendments by requiring local authorities to prepare and publish a procedure to enable members in remote attendance to vote in the event that any of the facilities enabling remote attendance fail during voting time. It's plain common sense. Diolch.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see an objection from Gareth Bennett. We therefore move to a vote on amendment 6. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 6 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 6: For: 45, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2616 Amendment 6

Aye: 45 MSs

Absent: 9 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 6 MSs

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 7 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:27, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Are there any objections to amendment 7? [Objection.] Yes. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 7. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 7 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 7: For: 45, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2617 Amendment 7

Aye: 45 MSs

Absent: 9 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 6 MSs

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:28, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 8, is it moved, Minister?

(Translated)

Amendment 8 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:28, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

It is. Any objections to amendment 8? [Objection.] Yes. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 8. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 8 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 8: For: 45, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2618 Amendment 8

Aye: 45 MSs

Absent: 9 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 6 MSs

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 9 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:28, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

It's moved. Any objections to amendment 9? [Objection.] Yes. We'll therefore move to vote on amendment 9. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 9 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 9: For: 45, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2619 Amendment 9

Aye: 45 MSs

Absent: 9 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 6 MSs

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:29, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Is amendment 10 being moved by the Minister?

(Translated)

Amendment 10 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:29, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Yes. Are there any objections to amendment 10? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 10. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, six abstentions, none against. Amendment 10 is therefore agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 10: For: 45, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2620 Amendment 10

Aye: 45 MSs

Absent: 9 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 6 MSs

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 77 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:29, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Moved. Any objections to amendment 77? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. Therefore, I will open the vote on amendment 77. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions, three against. Therefore, amendment 77 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 77: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2621 Amendment 77

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:30, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 12, Minister. 

(Translated)

Amendment 12 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Are there any objections to amendment 12? [Objection.] Yes. I will open the vote on amendment 12. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions and three against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 12: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2622 Amendment 12

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 13 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:31, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

That's moved. Any objections to amendment 13? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore open the vote on amendment 13. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions and three against. Amendment 13 is therefore agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 13: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2623 Amendment 13

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:32, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 14, Minister. 

(Translated)

Amendment 14 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Are there any objections to amendment 14? [Objection.] Yes. I'll open the vote on amendment 14. Close the vote. In favour 45, five abstentions and one against. Therefore, amendment 14 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 14: For: 45, Against: 1, Abstain: 5

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2624 Amendment 14

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 1 MS

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 5 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:32, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 15, Minister. 

(Translated)

Amendment 15 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:32, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

It's moved. Are there any objections to amendment 15? [Objection.] Yes. If amendment 15 is agreed, amendment 118 will fall. Open the vote on amendment 15. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions, three against. Therefore, amendment 15 is agreed and amendment 118 falls. 

(Translated)

Amendment 15: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2625 Amendment 15

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 118 fell.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:33, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 16 next, Minister. 

(Translated)

Amendment 16 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The amendment is moved. Any objection to amendment 16? [Objection.] There is. Open the vote on amendment 16. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions, three against. Amendment 16 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 16: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2626 Amendment 16

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:33, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 17, Minister. 

(Translated)

Amendment 17 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:33, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

That's been moved. Any objections to amendment 17? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 17. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions and three against. Amendment 17 is therefore agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 17: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2627 Amendment 17

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:34, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 18, Minister. 

(Translated)

Amendment 18 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:34, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

That's been moved. Any objections to amendment 18? [Objection.] Yes. We'll proceed to a vote on amendment 18. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions and three against. Therefore, amendment 18 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 18: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2628 Amendment 18

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 70 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

That's formally moved. Any objections to amendment 70? [Objection.] Yes. We'll move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 70. Close the vote. In favour 45, three abstentions, and three against, and therefore amendment 70 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 70: For: 45, Against: 3, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2629 Amendment 70

Aye: 45 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 3 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:35, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

Amendment 4 is our next amendment. 

(Translated)

Amendment 4 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:35, 10 November 2020

(Translated)

It's moved by the Minister. Any objections to amendment 4? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 4. Close the vote. In favour 45, six abstentions, and none against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 4: For: 45, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2630 Amendment 4

Aye: 45 MSs

Absent: 9 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 6 MSs

Abstained: A-Z by last name

(Translated)

Amendment 5 (Julie James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

It's moved. Any objections to amendment 5? [Objection.] Yes. We'll move to a vote on amendment 5. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 44, four abstentions, and three against. Therefore, amendment 5 is agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 5: For: 44, Against: 3, Abstain: 4

Amendment has been agreed

Division number 2631 Amendment 5

Aye: 44 MSs

No: 3 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 9 MSs

Abstained: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Abstained: A-Z by last name