Group 15 is the final group of amendments, and it relates to compensation for principal councils. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 143, which is the lead amendment in this group. Mark Isherwood.

Amendment 143 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Amendment 143 establishes a duty on Welsh Government to compensate local authorities for any costs incurred as a result of provisions contained within the Bill. The regulatory impact assessment states the total cost of the Bill will be around £17.17 million, including transitional costs to local government of approximately £2.95 million. Given pressures on local government finances, and particularly in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Welsh Government should ensure that it provides the resources necessary to enact the Bill that it passes and to ensure that the Bill ultimately achieves its aims. As such, our amendment reflects comments made by stakeholders during Stage 1 proceedings, including by the Welsh Local Government Association, which said that the

'Welsh Government should be fully funding any new national initiatives, or the implications of any national legislation on local authorities.' 

However, the Minister argued against such comments during Stage 2. She said that

'Principal councils receive funding from the Welsh Government through the local government settlement', whilst councils 

'also receive specific grants from Welsh Government and other bodies for specific projects and programmes'.

Whilst the Welsh Government has announced that £500,000 has been made available to councils in preparatory support, including to support digital democracy, the Welsh Local Government Association have stated that they await the details of how this would be distributed. Furthermore, this funding is significantly less than the £2.95 million of transitional costs for local government that were outlined in the explanatory memorandum. As set out, and all its members know and should accept, the local government settlement received by principal councils from the Welsh Government is intended to fund the statutory services that they provide, not additional compulsory costs imposed by Welsh Government legislation. Local authorities across Wales have been raising concern for many years about the punitive cost burden of having to absorb the consequences of underfunded or unfunded Welsh Government decisions.

As stated, the Minister said councils

'also receive specific grants from Welsh Government and other bodies for specific projects and programmes'.

Reflecting the councils' concerns, this is precisely what our amendment seeks to ensure in this case.

Whilst I can understand why the Member has tabled amendment 143, I cannot support it and call on Members to reject it. The amendment proposes setting in legislation a requirement to reimburse costs without any acknowledgement of the benefits, financial or otherwise. It does not draw a distinction between set-up costs and the costs and opportunities arising from a new but enduring way of working. It also implies that councils and the Welsh Government would have to identify those costs directly applicable to this legislation forever and a day, no matter how small or inconsequential they might be, therefore creating a need for a new and bureaucratic system to record and track costs by setting up a specific hypothecated funding mechanism. I do not think that is the Member’s intention, but it would be an inevitable consequence of setting such a provision in the legislation.    

However, let me be clear that we do recognise there will be a need to invest in the implementation of some aspects of this Bill. For example, we've already provided additional funding in recognition of the impacts of electoral reform amounting to some £2.2 million over the last two financial years. We will continue to discuss with local government through the WLGA what further support is needed to implement other changes. 

There is also an important principle here about the funding of local government that we should not lose. The majority of our funding for local government is unhypothecated. Unlike grants, where we can, and often do, require some activities to be prioritised and done in a certain way, funding through the local government settlement is there for councils to make their own decisions about delivering statutory duties and non-statutory services. We already have an agreed arrangement, tried and tested, with local government, which considers all aspects of principal council funding in the round. This includes identifying and considering any significant new ongoing costs faced by principal councils, whether from wage inflation or arising from legislation. The finance sub-group of the partnership council exists to ensure appropriate consideration is given to these matters, and I therefore cannot support this amendment. Diolch, Llywydd. 

Mark Isherwood, do you wish to respond?

Briefly, thank you. The local government sector I engage with in Wales has long been telling me about the cumulative additional cost they've had to absorb in consequence of unfunded or underfunded Welsh Government policies or legislation. That is not a comment on the merit or otherwise of the legislation; it is on their ability to deliver that without compromising other services. The Minister, at Stage 2, as I stated, referred in her rejection of an equivalent amendment to the funding that local authorities already receive or receive in specific grants. Had she then said that we would examine a methodology to ensure that councils are fully compensated for the actual net cost of implementing these measures, we wouldn't have put this amendment down. But that's not how we recall this having played out. This is a major piece of local government legislation that will have significant initial costs and possibly longer term costs for the local government family across Wales, and our amendments should stand accordingly. 

The question is that amendment 143 be agreed. Is there any objection? [Objection.] Yes, therefore we open the vote on amendment 143. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, three abstentions, 29 against. Amendment 143 is not agreed. 

Amendment 143: For: 18, Against: 29, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

So, the next amendment is amendment 173, Delyth Jewell. 

Amendment 173 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

The amendment has been moved. [Objection.] It has been objected to. Therefore, open the vote on amendment 173. Close the vote. In favour 17, three abstentions, 30 against. Amendment 173 is not agreed. 

Amendment 173: For: 17, Against: 30, Abstain: 3

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 50, Minister. 

Amendment 50 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

Is there any objection to amendment 50? [Objection.] Yes, from Gareth Bennett. Open the vote on amendment 50. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against, and therefore amendment 50 is agreed. 

Amendment 50: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 51, in the name of the Minister. 

Amendment 51 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

Is there objection to 51? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 51. Close the vote. In favour 44, there are six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 51 is agreed. 

Amendment 51: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 52, Minister. 

Amendment 52 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

It has been been moved. Is there objection to 52? [Objection.] Yes, therefore open the vote on amendment 52. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against. Amendment 52 is agreed. 

Amendment 52: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 174, in the name of Delyth Jewell. 

Amendment 174 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

It has been moved. [Objection.] It has been objected to. Open the vote on amendment 174. Close the vote. In favour 10, five abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, amendment 174 is not agreed.

Amendment 174: For: 10, Against: 35, Abstain: 5

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 175, Delyth Jewell. 

Amendment 175 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

Move. 

Are there any objections to amendment 175? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 175. Close the vote. In favour 17, five abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 175 is not agreed. 

Amendment 175: For: 17, Against: 28, Abstain: 5

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 72, in the name of the Minister. 

Amendment 72 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

Are there any objections to amendment 72? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 72. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 72 is agreed.

Amendment 72: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 53, Minister. 

Amendment 53 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

Are there any objections to amendment 53? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 53. Close the vote. In favour 44, four abstentions, two against. Therefore, amendment 53 is agreed. 

Amendment 53: For: 44, Against: 2, Abstain: 4

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 54, Minister. 

Amendment 54 (Julie James) moved.

It has been moved. Are there any objections to amendment 54? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 54. Close the vote. In favour 36, there are 12 abstentions, and two against. Therefore, amendment 54 is agreed. 

Amendment 54: For: 36, Against: 2, Abstain: 12

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 73, Minister. 

Amendment 73 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

It has been moved. Are there any objections to amendment 73? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 73. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, and none against. So, that amendment is agreed. 

Amendment 73: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 78, Minister.

Amendment 78 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

Are there any objections to amendment 78? [Objection.] I see that there are. Open the vote on amendment 78. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 78 is agreed.

Amendment 78: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 79, Minister. 

Amendment 79 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

It has been moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 79. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against. Amendment 79 is agreed. 

Amendment 79: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 55, Minister. 

Amendment 55 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

It has been moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes. Open the vote on amendment 55. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, and none against. Amendment 55 is agreed.  

Amendment 55: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 56.

Amendment 56 (Julie James) moved.

It has been formally moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 56. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 56 is agreed. 

Amendment 56: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 57, Minister. 

Amendment 57 (Julie James) moved.

Move.

It's been formally moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 57. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions and none against.

Amendment 57: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 144 in the name of Mark Isherwood. 

Amendment 144 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

It's formally moved. Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. I will therefore open the vote on amendment 144. In favour 19, five abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 144 is not agreed. 

Amendment 144: For: 19, Against: 26, Abstain: 5

Amendment has been rejected

And that brings us to the end of the amendments. It's almost exactly 9 o'clock, and we've reached the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill. I declare that all sections and Schedules to the Bill are deemed agreed. 

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

And that concludes today's proceedings. Thank you all. 

The meeting ended at 21:01.