Group 14 is our next group of amendments and it relates to fire and rescue authorities. Amendment 142 is the lead amendment, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move that amendment and speak to other amendments in the group. Mark Isherwood.

Amendment 142 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Diolch. Amendment 142 removes section 164, 'Combined fire and rescue authorities: inquiries'. Section 164 of the Bill covers inquiries into finance and governance arrangements for fire and rescue authorities. These are established by combination Orders under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004. Section 164 amends the 2004 Act to remove the requirement for Welsh Ministers to hold an inquiry when varying an authority's combination Order, except where the variation alters the area served by a fire and rescue authority, or would revoke the combination Order with a view to creating a wholly different configuration of fire and rescue authorities in Wales.

However, the Equalities, Local Government and Communities Committee heard unanimous evidence from the Welsh fire and rescue authorities and Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service regarding this provision. South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority noted its grave concerns, explaining that the provision was put in place for a reason, which was to ensure that due regard was given to the safety of firefighters or the community before changes were implemented that could detrimentally impact on these. South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority emphasised that this change is an extremely concerning step, as it could result in unsuitable or ill-thought-through changes being made to some of the key areas noted without sufficient inquiry, debate, scrutiny or challenge. 

North Wales Fire and Rescue Authority also strongly voiced its concerns, noting that the notion that changing, for example, governance or funding arrangements of fire and rescue authorities that are currently being considered would have no direct impact on public or firefighter safety is flawed. It would suggest, they said, that placing convenience over the protections afforded by the need to hold an inquiry in Wales would seem a retrograde step, not without some risk to public and firefighter safety. And Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Authority stated that there are clear flaws in the proposals and that such inquiries enhance and facilitate good decision making, adding that, if proposals are impractical or ill thought out or unreasonable, an inquiry would act as an open and efficient brake or filter on any such proposals and is consequently very much in the public interest.

Thus, as the committee's Stage 1 report stated, south Wales and mid and west Wales fire and rescue authorities were clear in requesting that the provision in section 164 be removed from the Bill. During Stage 2, the Minister argued that removing this additional and unnecessary requirement will simplify an overcomplicated and expansive process. However, such a statement does not respond to the concerns of the fire and rescue services and authorities that have spoken out with knowledge and authority against the Welsh Government's current intentions with regard to public inquiries. This is not simplification; this is removing checks and balances within the system, and that is a highly dangerous step to take.

I'm afraid I do reject amendment 142 and call on Members to do the same. FRA composition and other governance arrangements are set out in their combination Orders. For the most part, these Orders deal with matters of internal structure and procedure. They have nothing to do with firefighting or other front-line operations. Indeed, their terms could be applied almost verbatim to a body that did not provide fire and rescue services at all.

While it is possible to amend the combination Orders to improve governance and financial arrangements, we have agreed with the FRAs that we will not pursue these matters in this Senedd term. Nevertheless, there is no reason to hold a local public inquiry into proposals to amend combination Orders where that was desirable in the interests of good governance. For instance, the Orders currently require the chair of an FRA to hold office for only one year. Some might say that is too short a period and leads to unstable leadership. Allowing an FRA chair to serve for, say, two years would be a small step that would plainly not merit a public inquiry, yet that would be the effect of the law as it stands.

Public interest in these matters is often very low, but the requirement on the Welsh Ministers to fully consult on proposed changes to combination Orders will remain in place, as will the requirement to lay amendments to those Orders before the Senedd. Removing this additional and unnecessary requirement will simplify an overcomplicated and expensive process. No other public body has the power to consent to changes in their own governance arrangements, or force an inquiry if they do not. I am not convinced that FRAs should be a special case.

FRAs have argued that the current public inquiry provisions are in place for public safety purposes; I do not agree. The purpose of a combination Order is, as I say, to deal with matters of structure and governance, not of service delivery. The only possible exception would be changes to FRA boundaries. However, the requirement to hold a public inquiry will remain in place where proposed changes to the combination Orders would affect FRA boundaries. We have no interest in such proposals at this stage, but I feel it is important to maintain the safeguard. This was always the purpose of the requirement. It provides a mechanism for ensuring the public have an opportunity to influence decisions that affect the provision of front-line services. It was not to give FRAs a power to impede changes to their own governance arrangements.

Amendment 48 is a technical amendment to remove fire and rescue authorities in Wales from section 93 of the Local Government Act 2003. Section 93 of the 2003 Act provides relevant authorities with a power to charge for discretionary services. Fire and rescue authorities already have a power to charge a person for any action taken otherwise than for a commercial purpose, under section 18A of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, and therefore they do not require the power under section 93.

Amendment 49 is minor technical amendment that will facilitate the repeal of the 2009 local government Measure and does not change the substantive effect of section 166. Amendment 57 is consequential to amendment 48 and provides that the provisions inserted by that amendment come into force two months after Royal Assent. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood to respond to the debate. Do you wish to do so?

Diolch, Llywydd. The Minister repeated the statement made at Stage 2, which I read out, that removing this additional and unnecessary requirement will simplify an overcomplicated and expensive process, despite every fire and rescue authority in Wales saying to the contrary—that this would not be without risk to public and firefighters' safety, that there are clear flaws in the proposals, and that an inquiry as a brake or filter on any such proposal was very much in the public interest. It's a very sorry state of affairs when any Government believes that it knows better than the unanimous voice of a front-line emergency service in Wales. Good governance means that you listen, you learn; you don't pretend you know better.

The question is that amendment 142 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore open the vote on amendment 142. Close the vote. In favour 19, five abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 142: For: 19, Against: 26, Abstain: 5

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 48 (Julie James) moved.

Amendment 48, in the name of the Minister. Are there any objections to amendment 48? [Objection.] There are. Gareth Bennett is objecting. Open the vote on amendment 48. Close the vote. In favour 44, six abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 48 is agreed.

Amendment 48: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 6

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 49, Minister.

Amendment 49 (Julie James) moved.

It's been formally moved. Are there any objections to amendment 49? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 49. Close the vote. In favour 44, four abstentions, two against, and therefore amendment 49 is agreed.

Amendment 49: For: 44, Against: 2, Abstain: 4

Amendment has been agreed