Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales – in the Senedd at 1:50 pm on 9 December 2020.

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Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 1:50, 9 December 2020

We now go to spokespeople's questions, and the first up this afternoon is Conservative spokesperson, Russell George. 

Photo of Russell George Russell George Conservative

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, what is the Welsh Government's assessment of how the restrictions on the hospitality sector in regard to the Christmas period will affect the Welsh economy? 

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour

Can I thank Russell George for his first question and take this opportunity, with it being my last OAQ session of the year, to wish Russell and every Member in the Siambr the very best for a peaceful Christmas and new year? And with regard to hospitality, we fully recognise the incredibly difficult position that many, many businesses across Wales are in as a consequence of those rising numbers of coronavirus victims. But we have put in place an unprecedented support package, the most generous and comprehensive anywhere in the United Kingdom, with specifically £340 million of support for businesses in tourism, hospitality and leisure in the coming weeks. 

Photo of Russell George Russell George Conservative 1:51, 9 December 2020

Thank you for your answer, Minister, and for your good Christmas wishes to us all. From my perspective, Minister, businesses have bent over backwards to comply with anything that has been asked of them to make their businesses COVID-secure for their staff and for their customers. Some small businesses have spent thousands of pounds ahead of the Christmas period to do just that. And to put some context to this, the industry employs about 140,000 people with tens of thousands of additional people further in the supply chain. The reality, sadly, is that some small businesses will go to the wall if restrictions are not lifted on 17 December and if they are prevented from trading safely over the Christmas period. The worst situation, I think, for them is not knowing whether or not they can reopen. So, can you provide some clarity right now to businesses across Wales on what the current thinking is so that they can either plan to reopen and order the necessary stock, or plan to close for the whole of the Christmas period? And will you look at bringing forward that financial support that you mentioned, because January will simply be too late for some? 

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour 1:53, 9 December 2020

Can I thank Russell for his further questions? There were a number of elements to his contribution. First and foremost, with regard to the restrictions and the period that they will be in place for, I should say that every restriction that we've put in place helps to save human life, but we're acutely aware as well of the need to save livelihoods, which is why we're making available such significant sums of financial support. We're constantly monitoring infection rates. At the moment, in some parts of Wales, those numbers are incredibly high and we wish to bring those numbers down as fast as we possibly can, and that requires all of us as citizens to consider not just what we can do by the rule of the law, but what we should do to assist in reducing infection rates.

Now, in terms of the period during which financial support will be offered, of course, any business that received financial support during the firebreak period and operates within the hospitality sector will have those second payments coming through this month, and then the operating costs support that is applied through the economic resilience fund will be available in January, ensuring that, over the course of two months, businesses have access to vital financial support that can cover their operating costs and address the lack of turnover over the six or so weeks that these restrictions are in place. 

Photo of Russell George Russell George Conservative 1:54, 9 December 2020

Thank you for your answer, Minister. Any businesses in the hospitality sector would have already bought stock in the later part of November, in the early part of December in order to fulfil the needs of this period and between now up to Christmas. So, for many businesses, this is the time of year when cash flow is the tightest for them, and I'd simply say that to receive funding in January, or even into February, is simply too late. And if it's not too late, it's going to be too late for the supply chains that flow from those particular businesses, and that would be, certainly, my firm view.

The other point, Minister, that I'd make is that the one-size-fits-all approach that the Welsh Government is taking at the moment is, in my view, needlessly damaging businesses across Wales with relatively low infection rates and transmission rates. You pointed out in your last answer that you're monitoring—correctly, as well—where infection rates are particularly high, but that obviously means that there are some areas of Wales where the rates are particularly low. So, I would suggest we need targeted intervention that's backed by science and that reflects the different levels of risk in different parts of the country. So, can I ask my final question, Minister? Why does the Welsh Government continue to insist on a Wales-wide approach, impacting on livelihoods in parts of Wales that have some of the lowest rates of infection in the whole of the UK, and is this something that you will now reconsider ahead of the Christmas period that's now ahead of us?

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour 1:56, 9 December 2020

Well, I can assure the Member that we are always considering alternative measures that could be implemented, but, of course, the national approach carries with it a very simply way of communicating to the public right across Wales. But, as I say, we are open to alternative means of addressing coronavirus infection rates if they differ significantly across the country. Now, we've attempted to feature within the fourth phase of the economic resilience fund the challenge that many businesses face in terms of loss of stock that has already been ordered, and we have also been able to feature within—[Interruption.] Deputy Presiding Officer, as I say, we also were able to feature within the fourth phase of the economic resilience fund the need to support the supply chain as well, and that's why those businesses within the supply chain of hospitality, such as cleaning services, will be able to apply for support.

Of course, just as Russell George rightly says, for many businesses in hospitality, this is the most important time of the year. This is the time of the year when the greatest level of turnover can be achieved. Equally, this is the time of 2020 when COVID is most threatening to human life and to health services. We face huge challenges across public sector services, and within the economy right now in late 2020, and that's why, in terms of the economy, we are making available £340 million—a huge sum of money—to help businesses survive through to 2021, by which time we hope that the array of vaccines will be able to be deployed in a way that enables the economy to return to something of normality during 2021.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 1:58, 9 December 2020

Thank you. I turn to Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Photo of Helen Mary Jones Helen Mary Jones Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you very much. I'd like to expand, with the Minister, on some of the issues around hospitality and to begin by saying that we on these benches are clear, with Welsh Government, that public health and public safety is paramount. We do understand that and we share the Government's concerns about the rise of COVID. But I am struggling, Dirprwy Lywydd, to explain to hospitality businesses the exact nature of these restrictions and what the Welsh Government hopes that it will deliver. People are finding it difficult to understand why it's acceptable for people from four households to meet at lunch time, but you can't have people from four households meeting in a public house, even though they might be further away from each other physically than others, after 6 o'clock. I would put it to the Minister that this is particularly difficult for working people. The Minister will be aware, I'm sure, of lots of working men in his constituency who regularly go for the one pint at the end of a working day. I struggle to see how their behaviour is likely to be more dangerous than the behaviour of four people having lunch together. So, I wonder if the Minister, accepting that this is where we are now until 17 December—and, of course, some of the public health decisions are not his alone—would give some consideration to some flexibility in the proposals. Could he give consideration, for example, to allowing hospitality businesses after the seventeenth to sell small amounts of alcohol, to restrict to one or two drinks each? Would it be possible to consider, as he knows Plaid Cymru is proposing, allowing hospitality businesses to serve until 7 p.m. and stay open until 8 p.m.? These are small changes. I struggle to see—although I'm sure that the Minister will correct me if I'm wrong—how they would make a huge impact on worsening the spread—

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 2:00, 9 December 2020

Can you bring your comments to a close?

Photo of Helen Mary Jones Helen Mary Jones Plaid Cymru

—and they would, of course, provide a lifeline to some businesses.

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her question and say at the outset that I have every sympathy for people who are suffering right now as a result of coronavirus, not just those who actually have coronavirus itself, but also people who feel, because of the restrictions, that their mental and emotional resilience has been weakened? The inability to socialise as we once were able to has led to many people feeling incredibly frustrated, and I have every sympathy for citizens in Wales right now as a result of our decision to impose incredibly valuable restrictions to save human life and to save the NHS.

Now, I can assure Helen Mary Jones that I and colleagues in Cabinet consider every possible amendment to the restrictions that can be imagined, but we take our advice first and foremost from health experts, and, as I said to Russell George, every restriction that is imposed helps to save human life, and that must be our priority right now—just as Helen Mary Jones rightly identified, public health is the No. 1 priority. But of course, as I said to Russell George a little earlier as well, we are backing up the necessary restrictions on business activities with the most comprehensive package of support for businesses anywhere in the United Kingdom.

Photo of Helen Mary Jones Helen Mary Jones Plaid Cymru 2:01, 9 December 2020

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer. I'm sure that none of us envies the Government the decisions that they have to make. I was pleased to hear the Minister, in his response to Russell George, refer to the supply chain businesses. And he will be aware, for example, of the challenges to Castell Howell, a supply business based in Crosshands, that depends, for 70 per cent of their business, on hospitality. Can he assure us that, as the Welsh Government reviews support going into the new year, those supply businesses will continue to be protected? 

Can I suggest to the Minister that there is an anomaly in the current restrictions, whereby supermarkets and other shops can sell alcohol until 10.00 p.m., but hospitality businesses have to stop at 6.00 p.m.? I wonder if the Minister shares my concern that that may be risking encouraging people socialising at home, and will he give consideration as to whether retail trade might further be restricted?

As we go into the new year, and, hopefully, we begin to be able to see things lifting, the Minister will be aware, of course, that January and February are never particularly good times for hospitality, even if they were able to open up, and there will be a need for long-term support. Will the Minister commit to giving further thought to what longer term support might be available to businesses to help them recover, because, having lost Christmas, that's very serious? Could consideration be given to some mechanism, for example, to reduce the costs of licensing to businesses, which are considerable?

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour 2:03, 9 December 2020

I think Helen Mary Jones's suggestion there has great merit and we will certainly consider that alongside other forms of support that could offer strategic benefits to businesses, as we look towards a recovery. I had hoped by now to be able to outline the Welsh Government's economic recovery and reconstruction vision. However, given that coronavirus is still with us in such a devastating form, I felt it necessary to keep my attention and focus on emergency support for businesses. But we are most definitely going to be looking at how we can ensure that the long-term thriving nature of businesses is secured through our economic recovery and reconstruction work.

I think Helen Mary Jones makes the important point that businesses—very significant employers in Wales—within the supply chain for hospitality have struggled, and we will go on engaging with those businesses in the coming weeks to ensure that any future support is tailored to meet their needs and the needs of their workers as well. And of course, human behaviour is vitally important—none more so than at this devastating time as we approach Christmas. And there are restrictions that are in place; there will be some relaxation over the Christmas period, but, as I've already said, it's absolutely vital that people ask what is it that they should and should not do in order to protect human life—in terms of behaviour, how can they ensure that their loved ones, their friends, are protected—and the best way to do that is to take personal responsibility and ensure that you are not putting yourself at risk of transmitting or acquiring coronavirus, nor your loved ones.

Photo of Helen Mary Jones Helen Mary Jones Plaid Cymru 2:04, 9 December 2020

I think the Minister is right to delay publishing the reconstruction and the redevelopment plans and to concentrate, at the moment, on the crisis. But, as we move towards that phase, I wonder if the Minister agrees with me that the disappointing decision made public by Ineos yesterday demonstrates to us that we really need to refocus our support to business on local businesses to enable our small businesses to grow into middle-sized ones. We have seen too many occasions where we have made investments to try and attract outside businesses in and they have let us down. Of course, I'm sure he would agree with me that there may very well be a Brexit element to this decision.

So, can he assure me that, as he's re-examining his reconstruction plans, there will be a strong focus on local businesses and on growing those and making sure that they have the skills that they need? Can he give us some indication as to what plans there might now be for the site in Bridgend now that it's categorical that Ineos have walked away?

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour 2:05, 9 December 2020

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her questions again and say that it was bitterly disappointing that Ineos decided to move to France with their Grenadier programme? This is, of course, an iconic vehicle for the United Kingdom, and it's a devastating blow, I think, to those fans of the original Defender, who were hoping that the Grenadier would be manufactured on these shores. A site became available, we understand, in France that suited Ineos's needs, and, of course, Brexit is an issue that cannot be ignored by many manufacturers. So, Ineos made the decision and, as I say, we were bitterly disappointed when we learnt of it. 

But there is huge potential for that site in south Wales. We continue to work with the local authority and with the Ford taskforce experts, whom we engage with regularly, even though the taskforce itself has now ceased its operations. We are hopeful that we will be able to attract high-quality jobs to that particular site. 

I must agree with Helen Mary Jones in her assertion that we must redouble our efforts in growing small firms and ensuring that they have the support necessary to become medium sized, and to ensure that their anchors are firmly placed within Wales. I can't go into too much detail today—I should not go into too much detail today—regarding the reconstruction and recovery mission that will be outlined, but I can tell Members that there will be five beacons contained within it, and at least one of those beacons will serve the purpose of supporting Welsh indigenous small firms, enabling them to become more secure and resilient and to grow to become medium sized and employ more Welsh people.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 2:07, 9 December 2020

Thank you. We return to questions on the order paper. Question 3—Mandy Jones.