The next item is the motion to appoint the Senedd Commission—

Oh, I've done that one. [Laughter.] Just checking.

The next item is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv). It's a debate on bus services. And I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7704 Huw Irranca-Davies, Jayne Bryant, Hefin David, Janet Finch-Saunders, John Griffiths, Llyr Gruffydd, Vikki Howells, Jenny Rathbone, Luke Fletcher, Altaf Hussain, Jane Dodds, Natasha Asghar, Heledd Fychan

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the bus service agreement of March 2021 commits £37.2 million of funding to continue to support the bus industry in the coming financial year.

2. Notes that the agreement commits to a fundamental reshaping of local bus services, better meeting the needs of passengers.

3. Notes that the agreement also seeks to rebuild patronage post-COVID, encouraging increasing numbers to use public transport over time for a wide range of journeys, as conditions permit.

4. Further notes the publication of Llwybr Newydd: The Wales Transport Strategy 2021, which contains a range of commitments including:

a) extending the reach of bus services;

b) progressing new bus legislation to give the public sector more control over local bus services;

c) delivering innovative, more flexible bus services, in partnership with local authorities, the commercial and third sectors; and

d) ensuring that bus services and facilities are accessible, attractive and safe for everyone.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to set out detailed plans and timescales for delivering the commitments on bus services in Llwybr Newydd.

6. Calls on the Welsh Government and partners to engage meaningfully with local communities across Wales on the strategy and in reshaping bus services to meet the transport needs identified by those communities.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And can I thank the Business Committee for selecting this motion for debate and the many cross-party Members who supported the application too?

Buses and properly integrated public transport are clearly very important to the Senedd and to the constituents we serve. Now, no doubt, today some Members will have stories to tell of our own local services. Some will be of services lost during or even before the pandemic; some will be of creative new ways to provide transport solutions, particularly for people who rely on public and community transport in remote and rural areas. And we will also hear, I hope, of the courage of drivers and of staff who kept essential bus services going during the height of the pandemic and since. These real local and Wales-wide experiences will be good to hear in the Senedd.

But I hope we'll also have time to focus on the way forward for Wales, for every part of Wales, which must involve truly radical reform to and innovation and investment in our buses, scheduled buses and Fflecsi buses and on-demand buses, but also a far greater integration of different types of public and community transport, streamlined timetables and ticketing, a step change in modal shift from individual to communal transport and to active travel, wherever possible, to help to tackle climate change, lessening the need for longer travel too, by creating local communities with jobs and services and retail and opportunities to socialise in easy travelable distance by foot or by bike.

But let us begin with buses, because I suspect that's what many people will want to hear about. I won't be alone in having witnessed many cuts to services over recent years, and the cuts have often fallen hardest on the most remote communities, and often communities with already existing significant disadvantage. The beautiful tops of my valleys—the hilltops in my valleys—they're often former coal-mining communities and social housing estates. They're also often poorly served by shops and health provision and job opportunities and clubs and community centres in which to mix and socialise. They're often where car ownership is lowest and where the residents are often older and less well and less mobile. Yet these are the very communities—so often, the ones where the cuts are seen first. And often those cuts come first as temporary, because of reported problems with navigating narrow streets with parked cars for buses, or damage to buses or anti-social behaviour, or because of the pandemic. But, so often, these cuts become permanent, despite representations from local people and local representatives. Sometimes the cuts, we are told, come because the route just isn't profitable. Yet buses and public transport have a true social and economic purpose. They connect people and communities. Without buses, we have isolated communities and isolated people, with all the ills that that brings for them individually and for society. We cannot reduce buses simply to a transaction of money for a ticket or to cold calculations of short-term profitability on different routes. They are more than that. As Marion and Keith in Caerau said to the BBC last night, they are the lifeline for people to meet their friends, get to the doctor or hospital, get to work and be part of their wider community. Without them, communities are isolated and alone and so are individuals.

So, in this sixth Senedd, we have the opportunity now to do things very differently. Now that we have the powers, we need to restore the public and social purpose to the very heart of all public and community transport, as we've already begun to do with trains. And this means putting people, transport users and locally-elected representatives, back in control of our buses and of the wider oversight of public transport, so that buses and trains and Fflecsi buses and on-demand buses and community transport work effectively together, and where no-one—no-one—is left without being connected to their wider community and the world of work and the world of their friends and of society. 

Despite the pandemic, or perhaps because of it, that work has already begun. The bus service agreement of March 2021 has committed over £37 million of funding to continue to support the bus industry in the coming financial year, but this is conditional on, in quotes,

'a fundamental reshaping of local bus services, better meeting the needs of passengers.'

And it also seeks to rebuild patronage post COVID, encouraging increasing numbers to use public transport over time for a wide range of journeys. That's good, and it's encouraging to see Ministers seizing the opportunity to reshape the way we do bus transport already. The bold announcement yesterday on the pause and review of road building also had a welcome focus on shifting investment into buses and public transport. That's good, but there is much more to do—much more. 

'Llwybr Newydd: the Wales Transport Strategy 2021', sets a clear and new radical direction to take on bus transport and local transport connectivity. It contains a range of commitments, which include extending the reach of bus services—not shrinking, but extending—progressing the new bus legislation, which we've consulted on already, to give the public sector more control over local bus services, delivering innovative, more flexible bus services in partnership with local authorities, with commercial and with third sectors, says the chair of the Co-operative Party, and ensuring that bus services and facilities are accessible, attractive and safe for everyone. They are the go-to choice, not a leftover option.

Now, this is truly exciting for many of us. This sees a new future for buses that puts them at the heart of local and regional transport policy, and it puts people back at the heart of those local services, with greater control over local routes and times and more, with the point of principle that, in quotes,

'bus services and facilities are accessible, attractive and safe for everyone'.

So, how do we then put people and bus users back at the heart of public transport? We do it by using the new powers this Senedd now has, by putting a modern, Welsh form of re-regulation of buses and public transport in place, and by recognising that buses and public transport have a fundamental social and public purpose. We democratise buses again. Now, we don't start from a blank sheet. We start from a real world of several decades of post-deregulation bus services, and we start from acknowledging the skills and expertise that are out there in the current operators, and some of the investment, albeit greatly driven by Government investment and regulation, in modern and accessible vehicles in parts of the network, and we also acknowledge the commitment and experience of the drivers and the staff who've kept this service through the pandemic too. 

But I say if London and Liverpool can have greater democratic control of, and greater integration of, buses and other forms of public transport, integrating ticketing and cheaper tickets, routes and services going more frequently when and where the public want them to go, then why not us? And if commercial operators can provide these services, then, as in the few select places of the UK and actually many worldwide, so can local and regional and municipal authorities and not-for-profit mutuals and social enterprises too. If they can have greater investment in buses with a longer term funding horizon, ultra low emission buses, fully accessible at that, if we can shift funding and passengers to climate-friendly mass transit, rather than individual transport, and we can improve working conditions and the attractiveness of the sector for drivers—. I say if it's good enough for London and it's good enough for Liverpool, then it's good enough for Lewistown in Ogmore, and it's good enough for Laleston in Bridgend, or for Llanelli and Llandudno, and anywhere else in Wales for that matter too. So, let's be bold in reimagining the future of buses and integrated transport in Wales. 

I'm looking forward in this debate to hearing other Members of the Senedd's views on the future of buses and integrated transport in Wales, and the response of the Minister to this debate shortly, as I hope he will set out a bus timetable for delivering this exciting and radical transformation. And Dirprwy Lywydd, I will only require a short time at the end to respond. Thank you. 

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to make my maiden speech in this Parliament on the subject of bus services in Wales, and I'd like to thank my colleague for raising this and tabling this as an issue. Now, it's without a doubt that this is an issue of great concern to people all across Wales, and this is clearly demonstrated by the support for this motion by Members from every political group represented here today. 

Improving bus services makes good sense economically, by improving accessibility to goods and services as well. It also makes good sense socially, by allowing people to live fuller and more satisfying lives. However, it is a fact—and I know we all like facts here—that passenger numbers have been in decline in recent times. There are undoubtedly a number of reasons for this: firstly, an increase in private car use; secondly, congestion, which naturally increases journey times, making services less predictable; thirdly, a decline in financial support for the sector, making many routes uneconomical.

In rural areas, more disperse, lower density populations make it challenging to deliver widespread timetable services run by traditional buses. Services often take long and indirect routes to serve as many people as possible, but they become an unattractive alternative for passengers who have access to a car. This is made more challenging by the impact of COVID-19 on the bus sector. The bus services emergency grant provided by the Welsh Government during the pandemic has provided the essential services for people who have needed to keep using public transport, including key workers. But the lasting impact on bus use remains unknown, with passenger numbers expected to fall even more so than they have already. So, the question is: how do we reverse this decline?

Firstly, we need to invest in bus services. I've already mentioned the bus services emergency grant, but, before the pandemic, the Welsh Government's direct support for the bus network was largely focused on the bus services support grant. Six years ago, Wales replaced the bus services operating grant with the bus services support grant, with funding set at £25 million. It's shocking, therefore, that this fixed pot of £25 million has not changed since BSSG's inception. Funding per passenger for bus services is inadequate and compares poorly with that provided for rail passengers. The Deputy Minister may point to the various concessionary fare schemes that exist, but these are a subsidy enjoyed by the passenger, and are not a substitute for poorly funded bus services. 

Secondly, we must encourage cleaner, greener buses. In Scotland, the Scottish Government bus service operators grant comprises a core payment and an incentive for the operation of green, economically friendly buses. The core payment aims to support operators to keep fares at affordable levels and networks more extensive than would otherwise be the case, and the green incentive helps with additional running costs of low emission buses to support their uptake by operators. The Welsh Government must provide incentives to bus companies in Wales to decarbonise their vehicle stock.

Congestion remains a major disincentive to people using buses, and this can only be exacerbated by the Welsh Government's implementation of a 20 mph speed limit in residential areas. We clearly need a programme of bus priority measures, such as effective and efficient bus lanes, priority traffic lights and improved bus shelters, to encourage people out of their cars and back on buses, because, as it stands, I'm yet to meet someone who feels that the bus system here in Wales is actually worth sacrificing their cars for. 

Lastly, we need to make it easier for people to travel across Wales using one bus company to another, by introducing an all-Wales travel card. I was delighted when my suggestion—that such a positive response came from the First Minister a few weeks ago. Deputy Presiding Officer, I support this motion, and sincerely look forward to working with everyone here to deliver a better bus service for everyone in Wales. Thank you very much. 

I'd like to obviously thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing forward this motion to debate. I think both Huw and I have a shared interest locally as we both hail from the glorious constituency of Ogmore—myself in Pencoed and Huw, of course, in Maesteg. And, of course, I think it's fair to say that both of us have family members who often rely on bus services to get to work or to attend hospital appointments. 

I think we're all aware that, no matter the area we represent, buses and the provision of bus services is often the most raised issue in our in-boxes. In the election, for example, I lost count the amount of times bus services were raised with me, in particular by constituents who were retired and, more often than not, relying on the service to get to an appointment, in my case, or in the cases that I come across, at the Princess of Wales Hospital.

I think the Deputy Minister for Climate Change hit the nail on the head yesterday, and I think he's going to be very happy that I've said this, that buses are as much a social justice issue as they are a climate change or a transport issue. For example, we know that the majority of bus users—some 80 per cent—do not have access to a private car. We also know that the vast majority of bus users who rely on the services are on low incomes. And, again, coming back to Ogmore, as Huw is aware, the vast majority of the constituency isn't covered by rail. And this isn't a unique characteristic of Ogmore, this is something that is seen across Wales. The Ogmore and Garw valleys are solely reliant on bus services for public transport and that's a pattern that we see everywhere in Wales, as I've said, from the Ogmore valleys to the Neath valleys and to the Swansea valleys. A lot of these areas are reliant on these services and, despite this, services are under constant threat of being cut or being altered because they are no longer profitable.

And profit I think is a key word for us to consider in this debate. The reality is that so long as bus services are in the hands of companies that are driven by profit, they will never be driven by the needs of our communities—that's the bottom line. The Minister for Finance and Local Government alluded to this in an answer she gave earlier on today: where services are needed, largely in low-income communities, they are pretty much non-existent and of poor quality, but where people can afford to pay more for the service, then the quality of the service is great. It's important now as this debate progresses—and it needs to progress as a matter of urgency, by the way—that we focus on how we can ensure that our bus services and the wider public transport system work for our communities, and communities, again, being the operative word here. For me, that's bringing the power back to the people and to bring our essential services back into public hands.

In the last Government, I delivered a petition to the Petitions Committee with approximately 3,700 signatures on it, with a covering note explaining that it is a social healthcare issue as well as a transport and economy issue. As a previous local authority cabinet member for transport, I addressed packed meetings of distressed residents concerned about the loss of a service, some of them in tears and worrying about being socially isolated.

Bus transport is hugely complicated and expensive. Our contract for a service, on average, is approximately £500,000. They are often tied up with school transport to make them viable. Each region is different, which is why the bus transport grant is broken down into regions and then local authority areas based on a formula. In Flintshire, for example, just one of 22 authorities, there are 450 transport contracts: 350 are school, serving thousands of residents, often the most vulnerable, young, old, disabled and socially disadvantaged. When a bus is late or does not turn up on time, it's distressing and needs resolving quickly, which is why it needs delivering locally with local expertise.

Highly populated areas have good services because that is where it is more lucrative. Rural areas need high subsidies and access to services that are not found locally. Transport needs to evolve and grow from the community up. Experience tells me that you cannot dictate from above and expect people to migrate to a service. Operators need the financial security of a long-term contract and grant funding towards the procurement of new vehicles to help services to be sustainable. I believe that scheduled services should remain on busy routes and Fflecsi dial-a-ride services on those with low passenger numbers, incorporating taxis and school contract operators through an element of community benefit, especially for medical appointments. This could be expanded to work in collaboration with health boards. And we need to give powers to local authorities to be able to run them, just as they once did. There used to be a public bus service for public people, and a service. A lot of our services have been eradicated by competitiveness and are not properly funded. Thank you. 

Others have made the case this afternoon for the principle of buses and funding bus services, and the organisation and management of bus services. I endorse everything that was said in opening this debate by my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies; I think it's absolutely essential that we recognise the place of buses in a wider public transport policy. What I'd like to do is seek to describe how that would fit into a wider approach from Government. And I'm glad that the Minister is here—physically here, in fact—this afternoon to be able to listen to this debate and to join the debate.

In terms of how we deliver buses and bus services, there are clearly going to be significant changes and there need to be significant changes for the reasons that many people have given already; we can't carry on managing our services today and tomorrow in the way that we did some decades ago. But we also need to be aware of the needs of the people we serve. If you look at what's been happening in Ebbw Vale over the last two weeks, you'll have seen the introduction of the Fflecsi service, where you phone and make an appointment with an app to catch a bus and the rest of it, and I supported that. I would like to see the extension and development of these services, but it has to be delivered. And the chaos that we've seen in Ebbw Vale in the last couple of weeks is not the delivery of a service that the people of Ebbw Vale need. We need to ensure that, where we're delivering services, we're actually understanding the life experiences and the lived experiences of the people who are using those services. If you're taking your child to school in Ebbw Vale, you don't need a bus in an hour, you need a bus now and then you need to return in half an hour or 20 minutes. And that's what a much shorter urban bus service can do. Perhaps we need to consider the delivery of Fflecsi services and the rest of it on a wider, longer service network than in a small-town environment, where bus services are needed for short journeys that are more frequent journeys, but not longer journeys, and you need to return within an hour, and the rest of it. So, we need to understand the lived experience of people.

And then, we need Government to talk with itself and with us, together. Those of you who sat in the last Senedd will have been bored by me already talking about the need—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] To be fair, you were bored before I stood up. About the need for services to connect places like Blaenau Gwent to the new Grange hospital in Cwmbran. And many people here will have heard Ministers responding saying that that would happen. Needless to say, the hospital was built, the hospital was opened and we don't have the bus services to connect the people to the services that we need. And parts of my constituency remain unserved by a connectivity to that fantastic new resource.

So, you've got one part of Government saying, 'We're going to be delivering investment in public services and we want people to use public transport, and we want public transport to be the service of choice rather than the private car', and then we've got another part of Government delivering fantastic new facilities that are out of reach of public transport and out of reach of people who require those services. And that needs to be joined up. I don't have much patience, I'm afraid, or sympathy with Government on this, because they were told about it and they were told about it five years ago. And although we had a number of Ministers making some very eloquent speeches—and we're looking forward to yours, Minister, this afternoon—what we didn't have was the reality of the delivery of the policy on the ground, and as a consequence, I talk to constituents week after week about the failure to deliver the connectivity that they need, require and have the right to expect.

I'll conclude by saying this: the deregulation of buses by the Thatcher Government in the 1980s was an utter disaster for poor and vulnerable people in this country. It was an utter disaster for bus services and for bus companies as well. We have seen the destruction of a public service as a consequence of the policy of Government, of the UK Government, and it is right and proper now that we use the powers available to us in order to restore bus services as a public service, serving the needs of people. The irony is that, not only did the Tory Government, the Thatcher Government, destroy the public service, they also destroyed the foundation of the industry itself. If Darren would do some Googling, he'd know that bus companies themselves are not sustainable as things stand. We need a sustainable service. We need a service that delivers connectivity. And we need a service, as was said earlier, that delivers social justice for people throughout this country.

Prior to the COVID pandemic, usage of and access to bus services were already on a downward trajectory. Analysis in 2018 suggested that the distance travelled by local bus services had fallen by 20 per cent in 10 years. In fact, Wales has seen the biggest percentage drop in bus miles between 2006-07 and 2016-17 compared to the other UK nations. That is a really regrettable fact. So, I'm delighted that there is cross-party consensus on the need to engage meaningfully with our communities across Wales on a new strategy and in reshaping bus services to meet transport needs.

Transport providers themselves have certainly stepped up to the mark during this pandemic, and I'm really proud of my bus operators in Aberconwy. Alpine Travel have offered a complimentary community transport service to enable vulnerable people to access shops, and they have run errands, such as picking up prescriptions. That is one example of the passion that our bus operators in north Wales have for connecting communities. So, I think that it's right that we stop talking down that sector and actually speak up for them. They haven't been failed by themselves, the communities, they've been failed by this Welsh Government.

The £37.2 million in the bus services agreement is a good start. I welcome that the scheme has terms requiring operators to provide services that meet local need and priorities, including supporting learners' journeys to school, increasing services in situations where demand exceeds capacity, and backing integration across transport modes. In fact, in my constituency and next door, it could be a benefit to the Conwy valley and Snowdonia national park. As many Members  here will know, the area is being overwhelmed with visitors travelling in their own cars. I have long campaigned for a direct rail service from Manchester Airport to Blaenau Ffestiniog, and then integrated timetabling of rail and bus services, so that tourists can easily go by public transport from cities to the highest peak in England and Wales.

Of course, this would be in line with priority 2 of 'Llwybr Newydd' and the commitment to extend the geographical reach of public transport into every community, especially in rural Wales. In fact, Aberconwy is a prime example of how services can be, and have been, modernised to meet demand across rural communities. We have the Conwy valley Fflecsi bus service. What this bus provision does is adjust its route to pick up and drop off passengers anywhere within the designated Fflecsi zone. I do not doubt that it would have a positive impact on our united missions to achieve net zero.

Recently, I had the pleasure to learn about the steps that Llew Jones International from Llanrwst are taking to provide clean, sustainable and affordable travel. For example, they have two hybrid vehicles that reduce diesel usage by around 65 per cent. They have other exciting plans, such as creating the first TrawsCymru route in Conwy, which will have two fully electric vehicles. Their green drive could be empowered through a scheme that helps operators to invest in electric buses.

I have noticed that 'Llwybr Newydd' includes a commitment to adapt existing infrastructure to climate change by addressing issues such as flooding. This aim is applaudable, and I will take this opportunity today to highlight the fantastic work undertaken by Network Rail to make Dolgarrog railway station more resilient to flooding. Staying with that example, while there is bus stop by the station too, and I am currently working with key stakeholders to safely reopen the bridge, it is essential that the path leading to the small transport hub is upgraded. This would be in line with the commitment in 'Llwybr Newydd' to upgrade existing infrastructure to meet legal obligations on accessibility and safety, and it goes to show how important it is that we help residents not just to access buses, but bus stops too.

I have great hope that the strategy will deliver not only bus service improvements but positive changes for walking and cycling, as they are also top of your hierarchy. It is time to get the wheels of this strategy rolling, so I support calls for timescales for the delivery of these commitments, and I look forward to working with anyone who wants to on restoring a good community bus provision in all our constituencies. Thank you. Diolch.

I'm pleased to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that throughout the pandemic I was able to make contact with Stagecoach and their director for south Wales, Nigel Winter, who is a very, very good person to talk to. One of the things he said was that the bus emergency scheme that the Welsh Government introduced saved the bus industry in Wales through the pandemic. I think the Dirprwy Weinidog, and also the former Minister, Ken Skates, should take credit for that, because without that service, without that scheme and its successors, we wouldn't be talking today about a public transport service, because we wouldn't have that base on which it would exist.

I was also a member, in the previous Senedd, of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and we did numerous reports—I think the Deputy Minister was a member of the committee for a period of time, before he was promoted to the current level of stardom he currently occupies, and a very good committee member he was. One of the things that he, as part of that committee, instituted were reports on things like traffic congestion, on the structure and role of Transport for Wales, and on the decarbonisation of transport. These reports are in the Senedd archive for us to read, and they are key, I think, to the direction of thinking in which the Welsh Government needs to go. I'm particularly pleased about flexibility.

I want to see a flexible service to connect communities such as Ystrad Mynach and Nelson, for example. It's important that people can hop on and hop off when they need to. It would also be good to have an app and a phone number to book a bus. A pilot scheme like this is happening in Ebbw Vale at the moment, and that's good to see. It would be great to see that happening in Caerphilly, and we can sort out any problems that could arise.

As Alun Davies said, there have been problems. Well, let's sort those out before we bring the pilot into Caerphilly, shall we? That's probably the best way to do it. I've been hounding the Minister for a Fflecsi service. Perhaps we can sort the problems out in Ebbw Vale first and then we'll perfect it in Caerphilly. That's the way things should happen.

I think the Bill that we are expecting to see, and we would have seen—I think the last interview I did on Sharp End before the pandemic that wasn't about the pandemic was on the bus Bill that we were expecting to see in the last Senedd. The reregulation Bill, I think, is going to be something really, really important. And the key issue, I think, will be how do you provide for people who work out of hours, how do you infill those services that are not profitable. How do you do that? I think reregulation—as has already been said by many speakers, particularly on these benches, because I think this is a core belief of our pursuit of social justice—will be key to that Bill.

Another question will also be—and perhaps this is one that the Minister can respond to in his answer—how are the regulatory structures going to fit in. Because I've talked to Carolyn Thomas, who was the Cabinet member for transport in Flintshire council. I've learned a lot today from speaking to her. One of the things she raised with me is what is the role of Transport for Wales, what will be the role of joint transport authorities, and what will be the role of local authorities. Because there are many specific roles you can allocate to those different groups that you have to get right, and we still aren't clear on exactly what they will be. I think some detail from the Minister, in his response, would be very helpful there and enable us to understand what this Bill is trying to achieve in the future.

This is a very welcome debate. I thought, Natasha Asghar, it was great to see your first speech, and it was a really good speech. It was perhaps a little bit too partisan for my taste in parts, but definitely, the direction we want to have is getting this improvement in public transport through on a cross-party basis in this Senedd. I think this debate paves the way for that.

Across my region of South Wales Central, countless constituents have been in touch on this very issue, and it is clear that there's an inconsistent service across Wales. And even though there are issues linked to the pandemic that have resulted in reduced services and reduced capacity, the reality is that the bus services have been completely inadequate even prior to this. COVID should not be used as an excuse. It is crucial that we secure from the Welsh Government detailed plans and timescales on when improvements will be made as soon as possible, and, more importantly, that the Welsh Government delivers on those.

If you own a car, and you've planned on using a bus on a certain day, its cancellation or delay is an inconvenience at most. But, for those who don't own a car, or are unable to drive because of age or a medical condition, and rely on buses to get to work, to medical appointments, to go shopping, to take their children to school or to socialise, it can severely impact on their lives. And though there is a specific problem with bus services in rural areas, I think we need to be honest that this is a widespread problem and also affects people living in our towns and cities. If we are serious about tackling climate change and supporting more people in using public transport, this cannot continue.

To illustrate this, I would like to use an example of my own community of Pontypridd. I live in the Graigwen area, which is 1 mile from the town centre but up a very steep hill. Many elderly people live in my community, and are completely reliant on the bus to access basic services. Prior to the pandemic, we had been calling for improvements. The hourly bus service was unreliable, it finished at 5.30 p.m. daily, it did not run on a Sunday or a bank holiday and neither did it run right to the top of the hill to serve those living in the streets at the top of the estate. People complained to me about feeling isolated and restricted to their homes, and could not rely on the bus service. They even struggled to find a taxi to take them to medical appointments if the appointment clashed with the school run, and were anxious anytime they had to go anywhere as they could not be certain a bus would turn up. Even the bus stop is inadequate and provides no shelter from the rain.

As I said, these are the problems that we faced prior to the pandemic, and they are not unique to Graigwen. There are also similar issues in relation to the bus services serving other nearby communities to the town, such as Cilfynydd and Glyncoch, which have progressively worsened, with services cancelled frequently due to a lack of drivers. In fact, on 19 June, the 109, 107 and 105 services did not run at all, with no communication with passengers. I've received similar complaints today about people stranded in the bus station in Pontypridd.

One mother living in Cilfynydd contacted me this morning, having heard about today's debate on the news, and shared this with me:

'I rely on the bus services to get my daughter to school. Very often buses haven’t turned up or are running late. This has resulted in me getting my daughter to school nearly an hour later than when she should be there.'

Another, also living in Cilfynydd, shared a similar story, stating:

'Being a single working mother I rely on the buses to get me to work to do a shift while my kids are in school as well as at the weekend. Very often the bus that’s timed to get to the school for pick up is cancelled and my children are left waiting for me to arrive. This has meant that I have had to allow them to walk home from school earlier than I am comfortable with as it's just not possible to get there on time due to these bus delays and cancellations being so frequent.'

A resident from Glyncoch shared with me her reliance on a bus to get to work in Nantgarw, and that as a result of buses being cancelled or delayed, she has been late to work on a number of occasions over the past couple of weeks, resulting in less wages for her and her two boys. Others speak of missed medical appointments, including COVID vaccinations and hospital appointments at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, despite leaving two or three hours to make what should be a 20-minute journey at most.

A common thread runs through all of the correspondence I have received on the issue of local buses: people feel forgotten about, undervalued and don't feel listened to. They are anxious and isolated. This Government can change this. This Government should change this. We need action, not just words, and those actions are needed now.

I represent a constituency of contrast: some of the wealthiest wards in Wales, alongside some of the poorest super-output areas of deprivation. In one of my poorest wards, the medical centre decided to downgrade the surgery in Pentwyn, disinvesting from the local community, and so patients who are either ill themselves or have children who are ill are having to walk a couple of miles just to get to the doctor's—and they're not feeling well, or their child isn't. Some of them are so poor they don't even have any credit on their phones, so they definitely can't afford a taxi. So, the absence of a bus is unbelievably difficult for them.

It isn't just poor households, however, whose lives shrink when bus services are withdrawn. I can recall three years ago when Cyncoed lost the bus service down the west side of the Roath lake that you'll all be familiar with—the devastating impact on elderly and disabled people, who simply are unable to comfortably walk across the park in order to get the single bus that runs on the east side of the lake once an hour. This means that their lives shrink, because they are so careful with their money, mainly, that they won't hire a taxi in order to go and meet a friend or some other social occasion, and they stop going out. Yes, they can get food delivered, but if they don't have relatives nearby who are going to take them places, they simply don't go anywhere.

So, this is just a massive issue, and the cause of this is very much down to the fact that we are unable to control exactly where the routes are that serve what is a very urban constituency. Even in urban constituencies, we have massive problems of people becoming socially isolated as a result of the shortage of buses and the lack of control over where we need buses to go. It is pointless in such circumstances to have a bus pass—a freedom pass—if there are no buses. So, I do hope that, together, we can move forward on ensuring that the money we spend on buses, which is considerable, can be better organised so that we can ensure that everybody has equity in their access to a bus. 

It's a pleasure to support this motion tabled by my friend the Member for Ogmore today. As I was doing some preparation for this debate, I found a figure on StatsWales that shocked me and underscored the importance of today's debate, and that's the passenger journeys on local bus services by country per head of population in 2019-20. For England, this was 72.3, for Scotland 67, and for Wales the figure was just 28.2, and that's before we factor in the impact of COVID.

In the context of the pandemic, though, it's only fair to start by recognising the considerable support that the Welsh Government provided—support such as the multimillion pound bus emergency scheme. It's not an understatement to say that the bus industry would not be standing without that support. But that, in itself, poses questions, as the second part of the motion suggests—questions as to the sustainability of the current model, as to whether services meet local demand, and how we are mapping and determining routes in our communities. We need a radical rethink as to what we want from bus provision and what we think is good bus provision.

Firstly, we must provide bus services our communities want, and I'll illustrate this by an example from my constituency. From the village of Cwmbach to a local supermarket is under 1 mile. Lots of older people live in the village, car ownership rates are low, and since that supermarket was built over 20 years ago, there had always been a direct bus service. Recently, however, the bus operator decided to remove it, and now people need to take two or three buses to get to that supermarket, which can be up to 5 miles each way—a 10-mile journey for a journey that should take under 2 miles. Obviously, this can be a real challenge with heavy shopping bags. How will we encourage people to get on buses if this is the kind of service that is being provided? I really support point 6 of the motion for meaningful conversation with communities. Local people need and deserve a direct voice in the determining of provision that meets their needs.

Secondly, we must offer different ways of responding to those needs. Like all Members, I receive regular communication from constituents about the services they want or need, and I receive the same responses from bus operators when I raise these concerns in turn. 'Those routes are not economically viable', they say, 'There aren't the passenger numbers to justify them'. I think demand-responsive travel could be the means to cut through that impasse that never allows us to explore whether new bus service routes are actually viable and would be used. It may not be feasible to have big, empty buses rattling around, but smaller vehicles operating in a smarter way may be the solution. A Fflecsi scheme was trialled in the Senedd last term, including in parts of RCT, and under that scheme, people could request a demand-responsive bus picked them up from home, work, or the shops. I'd be really keen to see much more of this. It must operate alongside the work of community transport providers so that their work is complemented.

Thirdly, bus routes must link up. This is a particular challenge around longer routes, for example from my constituency to Swansea—a popular shopping destination and employment area, yet there is no direct public transport service. A direct bus service was replaced several years ago by two connecting services, Aberdare to Glyn Neath and Glyn Neath to Swansea. Initially, there was a 15-minute wait between buses, but then that changed to an hour as different companies provided either leg of the journey, and weren't prepared to compromise or work together for a joined-up service. Such a wait is not realistic; how can we encourage more people onto public transport with such impractical arrangements? Similarly, there is no direct bus route to Cardiff from my constituency. Okay, we have the trains, but even when the metro is at full capacity, rail will only carry 25 per cent of current Valley commuter traffic into Cardiff. So, there needs to be a big push on bus service provision if we want to get people out of their cars, and this question of the metro is key for my constituency. At its inception, the metro concept was not just about a train service, but also a comprehensive feeder bus service offering a fully joined-up transport service. This is key for communities such as those I represent where people can live some distance from a train station in comparative isolation. I've been encouraged by recent discussions on the metro which talk about buses as a bigger part of the scheme in its next phases. Similarly, the Deputy Minister's comments in his statement yesterday around integration of services was welcome.

To close, I'd just like to say a few words of appreciation to our bus drivers. During the pandemic, they've been essential workers who have kept those services operating. Key to any future provision is ensuring the highest employment standards and that staff have a say in the future of their industry. Diolch.

I welcome this debate and this discussion very much and thank you to everyone who has submitted the motion. I'm eager to see the Deputy Minister and this Government looking specifically at bus services in our rural communities and I want to endorse what Alun Davies said earlier, because it appears that there is a disconnect between what the Government and Governments have said and what they achieve on the ground. If you consider over the past few decades, we have seen a very urban model forced on the communities of Wales, with services isolated from our rural areas. If you consider how many community hospitals have closed and if somebody needs a blood test or physiotherapy, they have to travel further. How many care homes are far away from our rural communities? If somebody wants to see a loved one, then you have to consider that distance. Think about the bus stations, the post offices, the banks, the job centres and the courts that have been lost or closed in our communities, forcing people to travel further and further. But, again, because of the nature of our rural communities and there are so few people living in those communities, it's these routes that are cut first, those rural routes, because they're not being seen as profitable. We've seen more of that happening because of this austerity that has been imposed upon us by the two Governments.

So, services have gone further away whilst, at the same time, we're seeing the funding to bus services decreasing, and I'll give you an example: there’s a constituent from Aberdaron who has contacted me this week—Aberdaron in the Llŷn peninsula—and they have to receive further education in Coleg Meirion Dwyfor in Dolgellau, which is a good long way away, and they have to travel hours on public transport. Or, another constituent who contacted me, in Harlech, having to travel to the hospital in Bangor. Now, that's 35 miles between Bangor and Harlech, but in order to get there on public transport, something that would take around an hour in a car, it takes three and a half hours, and almost four hours on a bus. So, we have to see solutions, and we have to see rural communities being considered in these plans. That would be my plea as the Deputy Minister responds to this debate. Thank you very much.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the debate.

I'm really encouraged by the degree of consensus there is, both on the importance of buses and on some of the measures that we need to take collectively to improve the situation. As Huw Irranca-Davies said at the outset, we need to restore the public purpose of public transport, and I thought that was a very powerful and insightful comment. And Heledd Fychan set out very powerfully how some people are currently let down by a service that is not always functional and certainly isn't always easy. As I made clear yesterday, to tackle the imperative of climate change we need to make the right thing to do the easiest thing to do, and currently it is not. It is much easier if you have a car, and bear in mind something like 20 per cent of households don't have a car, but if you have a car it is the simplest way to get around. If we are all sincere in our objectives to meet the climate emergency, we have to shift that, so the obvious, easy way to get about for most everyday journeys is public transport. We are some way off that, and I think we all need to be honest about that. There are many and complex reasons why we are some way off that, and they've been captured by many people in this debate.

We have a system that is very complex. The privatisation in the early 80s has been a disaster, and has made things extremely difficult to co-ordinate. The public transport system in London works because it is regulated. Outside of London it rarely works, because it is not regulated. It's not that complex. We had hoped to introduce legislation in the last Senedd to introduce franchising into Wales. We were not able to do that, but we are determined to do it in this Senedd, and we'll be publishing a plan later in this year on how we intend to do that. I want us to work together, given the shared ambition in this Chamber, to make that the most ambitious plan that we can, not to do the minimum that we need to do, but to see if we can stretch ourselves to really achieve a seamless, end-to-end public transport system that works for most people.

I'd echo the comments in the Chamber about how public transport and bus services were the quiet heroes of the pandemic, and Vikki Howells's tribute particularly to the bus drivers who enabled key workers, NHS staff and children to return to school—we couldn't have done it without them. I think it's also right to recognise the role of the Welsh Government in stepping in and saving an industry, as Hefin David acknowledged Nigel Winter from Stagecoach has pointed out. I pay tribute to my colleague Ken Skates, who I see on the screen, who worked closely with the bus industry alongside me through the pandemic to make sure the package of measures was there to stop this essential ecosystem disappearing before our eyes.

We have put significant money in, and through putting that money in we have enhanced relationships, we have enhanced the underpinning arrangements, and we're now in a far stronger position than when we went in, having a relationship and contracts in place with commercial operators, which I think puts us in a far better position to realise the ambition we'll be setting out later this year in our bus strategy.

As has been said, buses are often the neglected bit of the public transport system. They carry by far the most number of passengers, but they have not been the priority for all parties. There have been lots of comments here, 'Well, the Welsh Government's to blame for this'—I would encourage you to look right across the UK and see if the bus service is any better, and I would encourage you to look at your own manifestos over many elections to see if you were calling for greater action on buses, and the truth is you were not. I think all of us have neglected buses, as there were costs for the public transport system, and that needs to change.

The fact is, as has been pointed out, this is a social justice argument. Eighty per cent of bus passengers don't have an alternative, but equally, 50 per cent of people never travel on a bus. So there's a real social divide here between the image that buses have of being not for people like us, and there is an othering of buses that I think we need to confront. Buses have to be for everyone. They have to be attractive for everybody and they have to work for everybody, and until we do that, we will not transform the way buses work in the way we all want to see and need to see if we are going to tackle climate change. That's going to require investment, but it's also going to require tough political choices here and in local government. It's going to require local authorities being willing to reallocate road space away from cars towards shared public transport facilities, and I was very pleased to hear Natasha Asghar make that point in her opening statement. And I hope she and her colleagues will see that through because that is not going to be easy, because there will be howls of pain from people who will feel inconvenienced or disconcerted by that. But that's what we need to do, because what bus operators have told the many inquiries that Hefin David outlined time and again is one of the main barriers bus operators face to attracting greater patronage is reliability and journey time. That's about making buses the fastest, the easiest way to get around. That means putting buses ahead of cars when it comes to planning our roads and when it comes to priorities of traffic lights. That's what we need to do. The question for all of us: do we have the courage to carry it through? I do and I hope that you'll be with me when it comes to that time. 

To respond to some of the comments in the many excellent contributions, I was pleased to see so many Members highlight the role that the Fflecsi demand-responsive bus service has played, and is playing in the Conwy Valley as Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned; Carolyn Thomas similarly talked of its potential, as did Vikki Howells as a way of bringing new passengers into buses and exploring where the routes can be more viable using this new demand-responsive system. And certainly, that's the experience in Newport where this has been trialled; it is showing there is latent demand there. People will use buses when it's a more flexible service. So, it's very encouraging.

Alun Davies pointed out some teething troubles that there have been in Ebbw Vale, where there have been some difficulties. And I would say to him—I understand his frustration—it is a pilot project, and pilot projects are there to test approaches, and things don't always go to plan. And there have been difficulties with software and there have been difficulties with staff training. As I understand it, we're now past that; I'd be grateful if he could tell me if there are continuing problems, but that was the last information I had. And we are learning, and as we learn, we will scale, and I think that is the right approach to take, and it's better we fail fast and fail on a small level than failing in one big bang if we rush this. So, that is our intention and ambition: to roll this out with confidence.

He did point out some legitimate criticisms of the way public services are often planned without thinking about how people are going to get to them, other than by car. And he's mentioned the Grange University Hospital, a very familiar example, and I quoted that example to the chief executive of Hywel Dda University Health Board last week, because they're planning a new hospital in west Wales, to make sure that those mistakes are not repeated. And one of the points of putting this department together with transport next to planning, next to regeneration, next to climate change and others, is to make sure there is join-up, and we can insist those things are thought through. 

We are hoping later this year—we'd hoped to do it before the pandemic, in response to representations from Alun Davies; it's been delayed—but we're hoping by the end of this year to have a new TrawsCymru cross-Valleys bus service that will link the Grange with an east-west route, linking Cwmbran, Pontypool, Newbridge, Ystrad Mynach and Pontypridd with a fleet of low-emission buses, and we are working on the details of that now. And I'm happy to speak to Alun Davies further about if we can enhance that and link it up with the Fflecsi services. I hear him from a sedentary position making other constructive comments that we'd like to bear in mind as we design the service, because it has to work for the people that we're all here to serve. These things are tricky to knit together because, as has been pointed out, we don't have the tools and we don't have all the resources we'd want because, as we set out yesterday, money is being spent in other places and we need to reallocate that. 

Hefin David rightly asked about the new role of Transport for Wales, the corporate joint committees and the local authorities in planning the new service. A lot of work has been going on in dialogue with all of those, which we will be setting out in our plan in the autumn. But, in brief, we hope Transport for Wales will be the centre of excellence where local authorities have been denuded of people and expertise because of austerity. We hope Transport for Wales will be that guiding mind to help local authorities, who are the accountable ones, who themselves can work together on a regional level to make sure that they bring their critical mass of—[Inaudible.] There is a lot we can do, and it's right the Senedd pushes us to go further and faster. Diolch yn fawr. 

No Members have indicated that they wish to make an intervention. I therefore call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I said I'd keep it under a minute, and I will indeed. I want to thank the—. I think we've had 10 contributors to this debate, and I, like the Minister, am encouraged by the degree of consensus around the need for additional investment and greater planning, by and large, from people, about putting the control back to local people and local authorities so they have a say on where these routes run and the times of the day that they do as well. Greater collaboration, less competition—. Wasteful competition, I think, is a theme. We might have different ways of how to take that forward, but I think that will be a theme as well.

Minister, you asked the question in your closing remarks—. I can't turn to everybody's contribution, I'm afraid, in a minute. But you asked the question, 'Do we have the courage?' I think we have to have the courage. In order to shift investment into multimodal transport, we have to have the willingness to actually say honestly how that will be done. If we're going to talk about taking back control, we have to be honest with people about how we're doing it.

But I would say, in closing, it's to do with partnership. We've learnt so much about how to do this well during the pandemic. In building back fairer—and this is a social justice and a climate justice issue—we will do it together and with the support of people in this Chamber. You have the backing of the Chamber to do this, I think.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Chamber. If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. Any Members who are arriving after a changeover should wait until then before entering the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 16:32.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:40, with the Llywydd in the Chair.