I now call on party spokespeople to question the Minister. Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. What discussions did the Welsh Government have with the UK Government regarding the second edition of 'Reforming our Union', prior to its publication yesterday?

The 'Reforming our Union' paper was made available in its original form to UK Government, and the reforming the UK—the most recent version that has been published has also been made available to UK Government.

So, from that answer, Minister, I gather that you simply shared the document with them, rather than actually had any meaningful engagement with the UK Government prior to you actually publishing that document. Do you accept that, on the one hand, you can't bang on about the need for mutual respect between two Governments when you aren't giving the Government of the United Kingdom a heads-up when you're publishing proposals that affect the United Kingdom and talk about your agenda for its future? Why do you think that it's okay for you to publish such documents without any engagement when the very first people to carp if such a document had ever been produced by the UK Government would be Welsh Government Ministers themselves, suggesting that it would have been an act of disrespect? Do you accept that you were wrong not to have a discussion prior to the publication of these documents and not to engage with UK Government Ministers on this matter?

I think the Member has very distorted the situation, because every issue that is in 'Reforming our Union', the updated document, is one that is raised time and time again at inter-governmental meetings and with UK Government Ministers. There is absolutely not a single thing there that has not been raised time and time again with UK Government. One of the reasons why it has actually been published is because of the absolute necessity to put this down in writing, and to put it together collectively as a reflection of all those issues that have been raised, that the First Minister has raised, that other Ministers raised, time and time again with the UK Government, but, unfortunately, with very, very little response. 

You say that it's an absolute necessity to put these things in writing and to publish this document—a document that is not dissimilar, of course, to the first edition of the document that was published two years ago. Why on earth does the Welsh Government think that now is an appropriate time to be discussing the future of the union, when we've just come through a very difficult period with the pandemic, we've got people waiting—one in three people on a waiting list waiting over a year for their treatment—when we've got schoolchildren having to play catch-up with their education? Don't you think that these are the matters that the people of Wales want the Welsh Government to get to grips with, rather than talking about tinkering with the constitution, which has no significant impact on their lives whatsoever at this present time? Don't you think it's about time you started paying attention to the real issues of the day?

Well, therein lies the problem, you see. I fundamentally disagree with the approach that you've adopted. I think the constitution is absolutely fundamental in what we can do, how we fulfil our manifestos, how we can deliver services, and how we can actually take decisions that really impact on people's lives. And the fact of the matter seems to be that the Welsh Conservatives, or the Conservative Party in Wales, are actually living in denial at the moment. There is a problem. There is a problem that is actually recognised across party; it was recognised by the interparliamentary forum, with many significant Conservative Members of Parliament within that, and representatives of Parliaments across the UK. That recognised that there is actually a crisis in our constitutional structure, that it is not working. If it is not working, then it means that it is impacting adversely on the people and on the way in which services and powers are exercised. So, it does impact on people's lives. It has a very direct effect on people's lives, and it is really disappointing that the Conservative Party in Wales is so in denial, because the way of resolving any particular problem is, first of all, to recognise that there is a problem. And there is a problem, and 'Reforming the Union' is a document that seeks to actually offer a way of resolving those problems, rather than them just being dismissed in the way in which the Member is doing. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson. 

I don't—

You've had your three. 

I haven't actually; I've had two. 

I thought it was three. 

I've had two.

It seemed like three. [Laughter.]

Can we check? Because I'm sure you had one very quick one and then that was answered quickly. [Interruption.] You had a very quick one at the very beginning, Darren. 

Did I really?

Yes, I'm sorry to say. 

You'll have to await the punchline from the next instalment. [Laughter.]

You did actually ask three, because you sat down on three occasions. 

Are you sure I've had three? [Interruption.] I don't believe you, but I'll check.

If I'm incorrect, Darren, I'll apologise afterwards, but I'm pretty sure there were three. 

It's all right; I'm prepared to accept it.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen.

Hopefully, that means I have four now. [Laughter.] Diolch yn fawr—

No.

—Dirprwy Lywydd. Rhun ap Iorwerth stated yesterday where he thought the plan unravelled—the basic problem of you protecting the union first and putting the people of Wales second. But, today, I want to concentrate on the implementation of your plan, and whether it does border on the verge of utopia, as quoted by Martin Shipton this morning in The Western Mail. 

Firstly, I want to concentrate on the UK Government. The Secretary of State—.

The Secretary of State said immediately that he rejected your plan. We've had a robust argument from Mr Millar today against your plan. It will be impossible to deliver this without the UK Government. The Home Office refused to give evidence to the Silk commission, to their own commission. So, how are we going to get the UK Government to become part of this plan? Are you reliant on a Labour Government in Westminster being elected again, because, if you look at elections and by-elections, that doesn't seem possible any time soon? Thank you. 

Well, you raise a very, very valid question. It's one we're asked many times. What do you do when you're in an impasse, where you, effectively, have a UK Government that seems to be oblivious to all the protestations, all the representation, all attempts at engagement that are made, and then the consequences of that are a deterioration in relationship?

Well, look, I think the first thing is this: Governments do not exist for eternity. Governments do change, politics is volatile, and political momenta actually change. So, I don't rule out, firstly, the importance that there are areas where we can make improvements, where there can be engagement, where there are areas of, for example, justice, that we can either deal with in respect of our own powers or through engagement. There are areas where we are engaging at the moment with UK Government in terms of constitutional change, and there have been certain other areas in terms of, for example, the delivery of justice.

But I take this view: when you are in such an impasse, when you recognise that there is a problem that the UK is on the verge of fragmentation—we see events in Scotland, and we see events that are in Northern Ireland, and we even see the pressures that are building up between the central Government in England and the regions of England—where do you actually go? It seems to me that the way to go is to actually engage with the people of Wales on the basis that sovereignty lies with the people of Wales, to build up a consensus and a momentum for support, for political support, but also to find out precisely what the people of Wales actually want in terms of their future: what should happen within Wales, should certain events occur—what should be the nature of that relationship? Because I believe that consensus, if it can be built as a result of a proper process of engagement with the people of Wales, is the strongest force that Welsh Government can have in arguing for and ensuring that there is change.

Mark my words: change is coming. The question is managing change in a particular way that is most beneficial to the people of Wales. But it will be something that will be determined here in Wales. There may be commissions. There is a commission of the Labour Party that's taking place. I'm sure there will be other commissions and events, and our process, which will be a Welsh process, will be one that will feed into any processes where there can be benefit to the people of Wales, but will also seek to build alliances with those who also see the need for constitutional change across the UK. 

Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. But there is a second problem, isn't there? It's not just the UK Government that's not listening. Your own parliamentary Labour Party isn't listening either. The commitment to devolved justice disappeared from the 2019 manifesto; in 2020, after the publication of the commission on justice report, Chris Bryant, in an argument in Westminster, said he was against devolution of justice, and he has previously said that devolution isn't a devolved matter; the shadow Home Secretary has spoken against the devolution of justice in the past; the leader of the opposition has been completely silent about it. How will Welsh Government get their own side, even, to back you with this plan? 

Well, we work on the basis of the Welsh Labour manifesto that has been supported by the Welsh Labour Party and which has been endorsed in a Welsh general election. The UK Labour Party has set up its own commission, and has adopted a mandate for that, which I think is one of the most radical constitutional positions, certainly for generations, and that is a process that I think leaves all options that are open in terms of the reformation or the steps that need to be taken in terms of the constitutional issues that are emerging within the UK. So, we will feed into that. We will present our own position as a Welsh Labour Party and in respect of the mandate we have, and also in terms of what lessons are actually learned from the conversation that we're going to have with the Welsh people.  

Thank you. May I raise a third problem that you have—not just the UK Government, not just your own parliamentary group in Westminster, but also the rest of the UK Governments? To reform the union you will have to have support from not only the Westminster Government, but also the SNP Government in Scotland, the Northern Ireland Executive—wherever power lies there—and also the English mayors. So, what discussions have you had with other Governments and the mayors? And do you really want us to believe that the SNP Government is going to support these proposals? So, Counsel General, when these problems become too much and when the plan fails, what's plan B? Thank you. 

Well, the SNP in Scotland, if we take that first, of course, has its own mandate, and it's a genuine mandate that comes from the people of Scotland as a result of the recent Scottish Parliament election. You will also know that, of course, where there have been common interests between Welsh Governments and Scottish Governments, there has been very close collaboration on a whole variety of constitutional issues. I have met on a number of occasions with my counterparts in the Scottish Government to talk about some of these issues, and, where there is common ground, we will work collectively to achieve the objectives that we have in terms of the benefit of the people of Wales, as they will do within Scotland as well. 

I think, in terms of the regional mayors and so on—I think it is very important that there are discussions with those. Those are forms of devolved government; a very different and perhaps a very ad hoc form of devolved government—very different I think to what Kilbrandon, in the 1974 report, actually envisaged, and therein lies perhaps the nub of a much deeper problem as to why we are where we are now. But, as I said in my last answer, I think within Wales what we have to do is to engage and to be clear about where the consensus lies in Wales for change, to build on that consensus and to engage with all those others who would share a common interest in the constitutional reform. As I've said, I think constitutional reform is an inevitability. Unfortunately, there are consequences—there are adverse consequences, if it is not dealt with in a progressive and in a cohesive way. And the most disappointing feature about it at the moment was, in the publication of the reform in the UK Government—is that the UK Government appears to have buried its head in the sand on the issues that really are facing us all at the moment.