The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 7 is the Plaid Cymru debate on a four-day working week. I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Motion NDM7780 Siân Gwenllian

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Recognises the change in work practices as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and that this has brought with it many wellbeing and work-life balance benefits.

2. Believes that reforming working practices to meet the challenges of the automation revolution is necessary.

3. Notes with interest that governments in Scotland, Spain and Ireland are planning national-level pilots for a four-day working week.

4. Recognises pilots of a four-day working week in Iceland were an overwhelming success and led to many workers moving to shorter hours with no reduction in pay.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to establish a four-day working week pilot in Wales to explore the benefits to all Welsh workers, the economy and the environment.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The old ways of working are dead—or at least, that's what I hope we can say by the end of this debate. The consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic on economic activity, employment and our way of working have been far-reaching. With working from home the norm for many, workers across Wales and the world saw a distinct, positive shift in creating a better work-life balance. Many workers did not have to commute for hours each day; in-person meetings that should have been a phone call became a phone call; and a phone call that could have been an e-mail became an e-mail. Many workers found that being able to spend more time at home and with their family improved both their physical and mental well-being.

Despite this, as a UN report on COVID and the world of work published last year shows, it is true to say that not all workers benefited from these well-being and work-life balances. A four-day working week, done right, is one way to ensure that these benefits can be baked into our work practices and felt by all workers, whether they be higher or lower waged.

What the pandemic has made clear is that radical shifts for the better are possible when Government gets it right. The UK economy has long been unbalanced, harming workers at either end of the scale, and the current crisis threatens to exacerbate the negative mental health impacts for the millions struggling to find any or more work, and similar numbers wishing to reduce their hours. If the first months of the crisis are any indication of what is to come, it also suggests that these impacts will be felt much more strongly by women and drive us further from a gender-equal economy.

In 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that, 100 years on, employees would work no more than 15 hours per week. The reasoning behind that would be rapid technological advancements liberating the workforce, providing more time for leisure. One aspect of this prediction appears to have been accurate: by 2030, conservative estimates project that 30 per cent of existing jobs will have been lost to automation. Technological advances are transforming the world of work, and, at present, automation is perceived both as a promise and a threat, the promise being perceived to lie in the potential for automation to liberate workers from the grind of long hours and bolster wages through a share in future productivity gains, while the fear lies in mass redundancies, as advances in technology begin to strip demands for labour, as well as widening inequalities.

If the anticipated productivity gains from automation benefit only those with a share in business capital, then we risk making a reality the dystopian futures that we often see depicted in books and films. What is clear now is that the world of work will change at breakneck speed over the next decade, and that, without progressive policy interventions, we will miss an opportunity to share the benefits of automation equitably across society and make headway in tackling societal inequalities. A shorter working week is one way of sharing the spoils of technological progress.

Now of course, my colleagues will speak on a variety of points during this debate, and I look forward to contributions from across the Chamber. But I would remind Members that we do not need to look far to see our neighbours cracking on with a four-day week. Scotland and Ireland, for example, have already announced plans for a pilot scheme, and Spain, of course, has also announced intentions to pilot a four-day work week amongst companies that are interested as early as this autumn.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course, Tom.

I thank Luke for this intervention. Is he aware that the Spanish pilot scheme apparently has support that tapers off over time, which, obviously, would mean that Spanish companies would have to let workers go, potentially, or increase costs at the end of that? So, that Spanish scheme you mentioned perhaps isn't the one I would draw upon in your instance.

Well, of course, I was just about to move on to the Icelandic model. But, of course, there are other ways of doing it, and he's correct to point to some of the disadvantages with the Spanish model. But, if we look at the Icelandic trial, we see there workers being paid the same amount for shorter hours, and also see productivity as well remain the same or improve in the majority of workplaces. Now 86 per cent of workers in Iceland have either moved to shorter work hours for the same pay or will gain the right to. And the health and well-being benefits were clear—workers reported feeling less stressed and less at risk of burnout through improved work-life balances.

That final point on work-life balance is particularly important when it comes to the UK. Information provided by the Trades Union Congress shows that, based on pre-pandemic data, full-time workers in the UK clocked in some of the longest hours in the EU, with 1.4 million workers working all seven days of the week.

But it isn’t just Governments who are looking at a four-day work week. An increasing amount of companies are coming around to the idea; Unilever being one example, who are planning on moving workers in New Zealand to a four-day work week.

I’m sure Members will agree that we cannot expect to maintain the status quo when it comes to working practices. As I highlighted earlier, automation and, of course, the pandemic have changed and will change the world of work forever. We cannot bury our heads in the sand. For the good of all workers in Wales, I would hope that this Senedd would agree that there is more to life than work.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

I call on Joel James to move amendments 1, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Delete points 3, 4 and 5.

Amendment 3—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Believes that working arrangements should be agreed between employers and employees and that no workers or employers should be forced to adopt a four-day working week.

Amendment 4—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes that employment matters are reserved to the UK Parliament.

Amendments 1, 3 and 4 moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've got to admit, I have considerable sympathy for the Deputy Minister; not only do you debate matters that are within your remit, but it now seems that you have to waste valuable time debating issues that you have no influence over whatsoever. Indeed, I believe the Minister has previously gone on record to say that the four-day working week is not devolved and is outside the remit of this Welsh Government.

However, as a responsible opposition, my party believes that it is our duty to engage with all matters within this Chamber, even if the only perceivable outcome to this debate is that Plaid Cymru will have something to put in their leaflets. As such, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to formally move the amendments tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. Our position is that the proposals for a four-day working week are not grounded in reality, because it entirely relies on the assumption that productivity—the rate of work per hour—will be increased if employees work fewer hours on the same pay. How can doctors, nurses, firemen, teachers, ambulance drivers be more productive than they already are? Measuring productivity is a very complicated—

Will the Member take an intervention?

Yes.

Thank you for that, Joel. I was just wondering if Joel would agree with me that at the time when they were looking to implement a weekend and paid holidays, there were probably similar people saying exactly the same as you are—that's it's unrealistic and unattainable.

Well, I'm not necessarily concerned with the past—I'm more concerned about the present and the future.

Measuring productivity is a very complicated subject and there is no linear correlation to working less, being paid the same and increased productivity. If productivity is increased, then it simply means that the employee will have to do five days' work in four days. Actually, these proposals would, in my mind, be counterproductive for some, because, as working hours become more intense, there would be less time for breaks and less time for movement between tasks and locations. Whilst very large companies may be able to reduce workloads with a reduction in the number of working days, I argue that many smaller organisations will probably still expect the same workloads for the same pay. And so what a four-day working week will ultimately do is create a divide, where some workers in the public sector and large organisations would enjoy working less, while others will be worked harder in those four days in an effort to keep businesses open.

In Utah, for example, the four-day working week was abandoned in 2011, because, although public sector workers enjoyed an extra day off, there were considerable complaints that people could just not access public services. Also, these proposals could have little benefit in terms of health and well-being for those workers on the lowest pay, who may be tempted to seek additional employment on the extra day they would normally have worked. There is the issue that many organisations, including our national health service, will probably struggle to meet demand if their staff worked fewer hours. Likewise, in order to make available the same operating hours, they might well struggle to employ sufficiently qualified staff who are prepared to work part time, which would then affect the overall availability of services. This raises another important question as to whether schoolchildren would also be educated four days a week, or would schools have to employ a full set of qualified teaching staff for just one day.

I note that Plaid Cymru and Luke mentioned Iceland, but that country's proposal is to actually reduce the average working week from 40 hours to around 36 hours without a reduction in pay. According to the UK Office for National Statistics, the average working week in the UK just before COVID was 36.9 hours. So, in theory, Iceland is really just bringing in their working hours in alignment with other countries.

Finally, may I add that enforcing a four-day working week onto workers is not conducive to a healthy society with the rights of choice? Sadly, many people only have their work colleagues as their social contacts and with whom they spend time on a regular basis during working hours. Forcing them to lose 20 per cent of their contact with others, in addition to making their working day more intense, will harm their mental health.

There's no doubt in my mind—proposing that the Welsh Government should trial a four-day working week is meaningless and, ultimately, ill-thought through, as I hope we have demonstrated. The Welsh Government has no remit for employment matters, which are reserved to the UK Government, and we should not be wasting our time debating a motion such as this. That is why we have proposed our amendments. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to formally move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths

Delete point 5 and replace with:

Calls on the Welsh Government to consider the progress that is made through pilots in other countries and examine the lessons Wales can learn.

Amendment 2 moved.

Formally.

I'm very grateful to speak in this debate this afternoon. And it is often said that ideas have their moment—a moment in time when it makes sense to pursue them. Now, as someone who specialised in change management in my previous role as an engineer, it was my job to understand when that moment was and how to bring people around to change. That is the view I hold for the idea of a four-day working week. I support it and I will be holding an event tomorrow to explore it further in Wales.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Llywydd, I am happy to support the Welsh Government's amendments, if they do feel they need time to capture evidence and look at trials before acting, because we must get this right. But I will say to the Government: in supporting your route to this rather than straight towards a trial, I would expect real commitment to taking this forward, and for the civil service to swiftly swing into action and get this travelling at a pace where we can see real change happen.

Llywydd, over 18 months ago now, I wrote an article for LabourList, which I know my colleagues have read thoroughly during their summer holidays. I suggested three topics and ideas that I thought represented the sort of bold changes we need to consider here in Wales. And colleagues will know that they are universal basic income pilots, a green new deal for manufacturing and looking at a four-day working week. Now, these ideas don't work alone, but they do certainly complement each other. And I'm happy to say these are not my ideas, but I am really pleased that parties from across the Senedd are looking at them positively.

We must recognise, Llywydd, that the settlement in the UK is unacceptable. The stresses and strains on working people have increased and wages have remained almost stagnant. A four-day week presents people with a better work-life balance, it allows them quality time to themselves, time to volunteer, time to learn, time to allow them to make the choices they deserve. It also helps address the stress epidemic and the huge levels of anxiety that modern life brings. And, crucially, the evidence suggests that it helps with productivity. The reality for those who oppose a four-day week—and they need to accept this reality—is that we do work very long hours in this country, and productivity is lower than in many similar countries.

Now, as I've mentioned, I am an engineer and I feel I do have an understanding of what the future of technology holds. Automation is happening, and it can either displace workers or it can make their lives easier and companies more productive. Put simply, Llywydd, we should all share in the benefits of automation and we should all enjoy an improved work-life balance. [Interruption.] I'd be delighted, James.

Thank you. A four-day working week could potentially cause a two-tiered system with workers, with those who can actually work four days a week and those in our food processing industry, our farmers and our lorry drivers, who are keeping food on our tables and on our shelves, who can't. And as somebody—I know, yourself—who actually promotes fairness in the workplace, do you think that is fair that we could have a two-tier system here in Wales?

Well, I'm very glad that my work on fairness has been of keen interest to the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire. The problem you have, I think, on the benches over there, as I said before—. Your colleague put it quite simply in his contribution that he doesn't care about the past, the only concerns are the future. The issue you have—[Interruption.] The issue you have with that is the outdated arguments. So, if it was me looking at a four-day working week, for example, what I would suggest to the Members on that bench is actually having an informed discussion, because I think—. I welcome your contributions to the debate, because it is a debate, but I would suggest looking more positively at the ideas and the evidence out there.

Many of the arguments against the four-day week are familiar—they are familiar. We've said they're outdated opposition. Luke Fletcher from Plaid Cymru is right: they were the same arguments against the weekend; same against paid holidays; paternity leave; even the Acts that stopped children working. They claim it will damage productivity, but they don't pause to address the real reasons that productivity is poor in the UK, because facing this does not suit.

Llywydd, in finishing—and I welcome this chance to debate this important motion today, and I look forward to tomorrow's event and continuing the conversation, which I know colleagues from around the Chamber are so kindly attending—I will say that I am proud to represent the Welsh Labour Party and the wider Labour movement, because we came into being to get a fairer deal for working people and, for me, a four-day week is a realistic ambition to do that. So, let's continue to have this conversation. Let's bring forward motions like today's to discuss this topic, and let's make this a reality here in Wales.

Although it's affected us all, the effects of the pandemic have been anything but equitable. Research underlines this time and again. We hear talk of learning the pandemic's hard lessons, of building back better, of grasping the opportunity for change offered by the new perspectives forced on us by crisis. Adopting a new way of working is, of course, one such opportunity. A four-day working week could be key to tackling that inequality, which has no place in modern society and which has been so clearly revealed by the pandemic, that of gender inequality.

Although more women work part-time than men, they have less time free from work. They're more likely to be trying to stitch together several part-time jobs to try to keep their heads above water. But they are far more likely to have less free time because they fulfil unpaid roles. When the order came to work from home, I was part of a team of employees who were mothers. I can testify to the impact of the destruction of their complex key networks of support: the fragile network of schools, nurseries, child minders, members of the family, friends and so on. The vast majority of the responsibilities in terms of care fell on the shoulders of women mainly, and that which was revealed about inequality between the genders is something that we have to take action to change. Because, never mind the wage paid, research shows that women who work have provided more childcare than men on similar wages. In research by Chwarae Teg, it was demonstrated that women had to cut their working hours in order to cope with unpaid work, such as care. And the women who were most vulnerable economically and socially are affected most.

But these inequalities aren't new. For decades, Governments of all colours have failed to support people's ability to meet their fundamental needs and those who are dependent on them. There is a far stronger link as well between overwork and mental health issues amongst women. Even before the pandemic, the levels of stress related to the workforce were three times as high for women. So, how would a four-day week help to tackle inequality?

Let's be clear, the four-day working week is no silver bullet for all these inequalities. Our understanding of work as a whole needs to change, and this is achievable, I think. Our acceptance of radically new working practices in such a short period of time shows this. Waged work is not the only sphere that needs to be reimagined, but the opportunity offered by a four-day working week to women would be more effective than the myriad of gender equality reviews and policies that are unevenly deployed and unevenly monitored, and as such have had limited success in levelling the playing field for women. How many times have we talked in this place about gender balance in civic and political life? Giving women more time to pursue a life in and beyond work will help to increase female participation and representation in those organisations that most need to understand their experiences. Of course, any and all reforms to the working week must benefit all workers, and tackle socioeconomic inequality in all spheres, as we have heard.

The response to the climate crisis calls for the reshaping of our economic system in several ways. The world of work needs to be at the heart of the zero-carbon economy, and working hours and how we define work are at the heart of that. To ensure that everyone has a voice in drawing up this sustainable society that we have to co-create, we have to ensure that everyone is empowered and benefits from the changes that the reform of the world of work would lead to. We have to ensure that the employees on the lowest wages—and women, of course, are the majority of those—aren't forced to search for additional employment or can't access leisure facilities or affordable care support.

We have to ensure that the reform of working patterns goes hand in hand with the reform of pay and conditions, and that's why the contribution of trade unions to any transformation is vital to safeguard those who are in inequitable situations socially and economically from being disadvantaged further. And that's why a pilot is vital here, and that's what we can do in Wales to see the impact and the solutions that are required to see how this innovative idea can be part of the response to eradicate those deep-seated inequalities that scar our society and prevent the development of a fair and sustainable economy. Wales has an opportunity to demonstrate to its people and to the world that that is our aspiration. I encourage you to support the motion.

The model of work we use now has barely changed since the days of the male breadwinner factory of the 1950s. It's a model that means that women are far more likely to give up work to take up caring responsibilities, and women currently do an average of 60 per cent more unpaid work than men. Is this really the way that we want to live? People face burnout, experience in-work stress and mental health issues, miss out on being with children and miss out on leisure and education opportunities. COVID has forced greater flexible working and that is something that we should be looking to lock in post COVID.

And Wales is well placed to lead the charge here. A third of all workers in Wales are employed in the public sector, giving us a perfect opportunity to trial a four-day working week. After COVID and more than a decade of austerity, public sector workers are overworked, overwhelmed and facing burnout. And it is important that this idea is stress tested. Arguably, it is an easy idea to implement in the public sector, in perhaps professional or managerial roles, but we do have to think, as has been said, about the effect on our manual workers, our farmers, those working in agriculture. So, I do welcome the inclusion in the motion of a call to pilot the four-day work week in different sectors. But I want to stress that a pilot should be to understand how and not if we introduce this life-changing transformation across Wales. There are obviously practical considerations to be made and to be thought about, but I am in no doubt that a four-day working week would benefit all workers in all sectors, and would benefit our economy as well.

There is also significant evidence that a four-day working week would support our efforts to protect our environment too. These are the sorts of ideas that we should debate, that we can't afford to write off. Our economy needs to work for people and planet, and to date it hasn't. A four-day working week is an exciting and innovative approach that could be life changing. So, let's look at how we can pilot this. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm very grateful to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate today on such an important topic. A four-day working week has the potential to be transformational for Wales, and we should support the idea for a number of reasons. COVID has given us an opportunity to build a better economy that works for the people of Wales, and we should embrace this opportunity to be innovative. A four-day working week is an idea that works perfectly with the challenge set by the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales to create, and this is a quote,

'a brave and progressive approach to policy making and long-term thinking that puts diversity, the well-being economy, tackling emissions and biodiversity loss, and life-long learning at the forefront of our minds.'

On the subject of the future generations commissioner, I'm aware of work by her office, in partnership with the think tank Autonomy, relating to a four-day week and a universal basic income in Wales. It would be informative and essential to see the full reports so that they may help to shape this debate around these progressive ideas. Any updates from the Government on those reports today would be welcome.

Many of us will have been in jobs where we have experienced burnout. If you are lucky enough not to have had that, then you're very likely to know somebody who has. UK Government statistics from 2019-20 reveal that more than half of work-related ill health that year was due to work-related stress, depression or anxiety. Our current model of working is causing untold harm to workers, so a reduced working week could help cut levels of overwork and stress. A four-day working week is part of the antidote to the problem caused by the stress of modern life. It will improve mental well-being, as it will allow people more free time to relax.

I am the Plaid Cymru spokesperson on communities, and I'm excited by the potential impact a four-day working week would have on communities throughout Wales, as it would increase the opportunities for volunteering. It would improve mental well-being, physical health and people's outlook on life. We know this from the trials in Utah, which, after a 12-month experiment, showed increased levels of volunteering. This sustains the idea that many of our workers want to be involved in transforming society for the better, if they are given the chance.

To achieve these many gains for people in society, we need to ensure some principles and policies are in place. There should be no loss of pay, first and foremost. There should be the provision of green spaces, especially in disadvantaged areas, and Gwern y Domen in Caerphilly basin springs to mind as a place that we should preserve. There should be increased funding for theatres and arts to encourage public participation, and we should expand libraries, community centres and sports grounds to offer more zero-carbon activities in local communities. There should be greater support for education and training possibilities for adults so that they can be combined with more free time to boost skills.

These are all things that would contribute towards making a fairer, more prosperous and happier Wales. I'm sure that it will be problematic for some in this Chamber to support any steps that would help to create a better working week for ordinary people, and we know who those people are. However, I do call on you today who believe in workers' rights and see yourselves as being progressive politicians to support Plaid Cymru in this debate, to support our motion and to support the workers of Wales. Thank you. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. Although I don't agree with it, I think it's important to bring all aspects of the debate to the table. I think it's interesting that in the midst of a global pandemic, a European energy crisis and worldwide food shortages, not to say anything about domestic health and care problems, Plaid Cymru have chosen this debate on the merits of a social experiment—or I might have to say, a socialist experiment. Not that this place could implement Plaid's four-day week utopia, as this is a matter reserved for the UK Parliament. I read the TUC briefing yesterday, and it essentially asked what the potential pitfalls of a four-day week were, and it said that the Senedd doesn't have the power to legislate over the maximum hours someone can work, nor can it raise the minimum wage to balance out the financial loss if an employer lowered their employees' hours without a corresponding rise in hourly pay, and the Senedd doesn't have the power to change any of the rules around universal credit, which requires many claimants to work or search for work for 35 hours per week or risk sanction. But—

Would the Member give way?

Yes, I'll give way.

I appreciate that, Gareth. I was just interested, when you read the Trades Union Congress briefing, whether you considered actually joining a union—[Interruption.]—as the unions are the lifelines of so many workers and working-class people in Wales.

Thanks very much for the union soundbite, Jack. I'm not a member of a union, nor do I particularly want to be, unfortunately.

But maybe this is the grand plan of Plaid Cymru; maybe they want to hoodwink the Welsh public into believing that they could work a day less for the same pay, but it can only be delivered by a Plaid-led independent Wales. Well, it's a fantasy, just like the one that Wales can survive without subsidies from the English taxpayer. The motion fails to mention that most of the pilots failed because they were unaffordable. Like the other socialist utopian pipe dream, universal basic income, four-day working is unworkable.

My biggest concern as shadow Minister for social services is the impact this would have on the care sector. We cannot fill the posts needed to provide good, safe care as it is, let alone increasing the workforce by a fifth. In August, the chief inspector at Care Inspectorate Wales put in writing what many of us have been saying for months—that the recruitment and retention of staff was one of social care's biggest worries: 'Our fear is that unless people come into the social care workforce, more and more people will end up in residential care earlier than they need to, or if they have multiple health issues, they'll end up in hospital.' Care homes are reporting posting daily recruitment ads, yet receiving not a single applicant. One care home boss reported:

'Staffing is dire. We haven't got enough people coming into the care industry and we've got people leaving in droves.'

It's so bad that hundreds of vacancies are posted every week. This is on top of the chronic shortages that were identified pre pandemic. Welsh Government admits that they need to recruit an additional 20,000 care workers by the end of the decade. That's just to stand still and doesn't count for the fact that a third of the workforce is nearing retirement age. If we were to sign up to  Plaid's latest social experiment, we would need an additional 10,000 staff tomorrow. Even the most vocal advocates of four-day working have to admit that that's impossible. Let's focus our efforts on fixing our care sector rather than try to turn Wales into some utopian fantasy land. I urge Members to reject Plaid's proposition, and support our amendments. Thank you very much.

Mabon ap Gwynfor.

I should get myself ready, shouldn't I? Thank you very much, Llywydd.

 Take your time, Mabon. 

I will, thank you. I don't know whether Joel listened to the constitutional debate yesterday, where we heard about legislation from the Roman empire, about Hywel Dda, about Iorwerth and other examples in history. But I want to start by turning to history to show that it's possible to get to grips with major social challenges, by improving the quality of life of people by decreasing working hours.

Consider the growth in our national sports—football, cricket, rugby—or our seaside towns, their growth, or the spa towns, expanding people's horizons with train travel and the social development up to the 1930s, when the weekend as we know it today was introduced. These benefits came as a result of the campaign to decrease working hours at that time. Today, of course, it's other crises that face our society, none greater than the climate crisis. Regardless of the list that Gareth set out, it's the climate crisis that faces our planet—that's the major challenge, and this campaign to decrease working hours could play a part in the solution.

How? Well, assessments show that shifting to a four-day working week without the loss of pay can decrease the carbon footprint of the United Kingdom by 127 million tonnes a year by 2025, which is a decrease of over 21 per cent in our carbon emissions. Earlier this year, Platfform released a report on the environmental benefits of a shorter working week, which demonstrated a decrease in the use of electricity because employees were working away from the intensive use of electricity in the centralised offices. Joel referred to Utah—nobody says that this will be perfect; there will be issues that arise, and that's why we refer to a pilot—but in Utah the experiments there led to energy savings, significant savings.

Last year, Autonomy published a report that reviewed data from energy usage in households in the United Kingdom during working days as compared to weekends. The report came to the conclusion that a three-day weekend would decrease carbon emissions by 117,000 tonnes a week. Now, the past year has been exceptional in several ways, but we've seen working patterns stabilising, with roads becoming busier and heavy traffic during peak hours, once again. Three quarters of the workforce in our rural areas are dependent on transport or travel to work in a private car. The car dominates towns and villages, with almost 70 per cent using this form of transport, so it stands to reason that a shorter working week would have an impact on this, too.

Work by the University of Reading demonstrates that shorter weeks lead to fewer journeys in private cars. They estimate that over half a billion miles fewer would be travelled every week, which of course means fewer emissions and fewer travel costs. This report by the University of Reading goes further, and suggests that good causes such as charities that need volunteers would benefit, as Sioned mentioned earlier, and that family well-being would benefit, because people say that they would spend more time at home with their families. A four-day working week would release more time—[Interruption.] Of course. 

Thank you very much. I'm just wondering in what you're saying if you could just explain to me how this would impact education in Wales.

Of course, nobody says that this would be perfect. What we are proposing here, and what I think that those benches over there don't understand, is that we are suggesting a pilot to see how it would impact on education, on agriculture and on all of the sectors. So that's why I don't understand why you oppose this; prove us wrong.

A working week of four days would release more time in people's lives for activities that are more beneficial and would be less damaging environmentally, enriching people's lives in several ways. Studies in France reinforce this, demonstrating that those who work longer hours have more damaging environmental patterns. In reviewing the impact of decreasing working hours to 35 hours there, there are clear trends towards more domestic activities using less carbon, and spending more time amongst their families, with a positive culture change as a result. So, the environmental rewards are significant. We need to trial this idea to weigh up the full impact of the idea. Support our motion, please. Thank you. 

I believe that increasing productivity and efficiency as a measure is just going too far now. The rate of work-related stress, depression and anxiety continues to rise across the UK. A quarter of all sick days last year were the result of workload, costing businesses and the public sector billions of pounds. We are facing a mental health crisis, and Members on all sides know that we simply do not have the resources or NHS staff to adequately treat the symptoms.

Workers are not machines. Workers have families and lives to live. We may need to work to live, but we should not live to work. I believe that health, well-being and happiness should be a measure, not just gross domestic product and productivity. People are being squeezed to death by increasing productivity and efficiency to make money all the time. They can't do any more.

I know from my own personal experience as a postal worker that employees are under constant pressure to work longer days, without the guarantee of increased contracted hours. All new starters now in Royal Mail are offered a 25-hour working week, but they're expected to work 35, 40 hours a week. Some of the rounds I did were 600 houses on a round. I had to walk 12 miles a day to complete that round. They've just increased it to 800 houses on that round because the computer says that can be done. I was fortunate that I did it four days a week along with my councillor role, so I did have days when I could rest in between. But I do know that the postal workers, the new ones that have to do these increased rounds, are just wearing themselves out. It impacts on their joints, their health and their well-being. 

This is a widespread issue. Teacher retention rates continue to decline. A high level of staff turnover in the NHS is increasingly linked to poor work-life balance. This is what we're hearing all the time, aren't we? Some will claim we cannot afford a four-day week. This ignores the evidence that shows increased productivity when a four-day week has been introduced. Relegating the debate to a simple cost exercise ignores the huge cost of mental health to our society and economy, and the benefits an improved work-life balance brings to individuals' well-being.

Can I just say as well that I've been looking at jobs online—my husband's been looking as well—but some of the shift patterns now are horrendous? I saw one job; it was working 12 hours a day, seven days a week for the whole week, and then you get the following week off. How can you look after your family doing that? How can you sort out picking kids up from school? I can't see it happen. And your body clock as well, working seven days, 12 hours a day for a week and a week off. This is again because of productivity and efficiencies, because factories work in 12-hour shifts. I saw it also when I was cabinet member for streetscene,  I must admit—trying to keep the vehicles going, because then that drives efficiency. But people are not robots. It all adds up. 

The Labour movement has been responsible for tremendous change in this country, from the weekend to paid holidays, minimum wage and workplace pensions. Can I just say I'm proud of my colleague Jack Sargeant for bringing this issue to the fore? Because I heard about this before. And thank you again for bringing the debate here today, Luke. I support the Welsh Government in examining the available evidence so our movement can continue to be at the forefront in delivering a fairer deal for workers in Wales. This has got to happen. We're at breaking point, I believe. So, thank you very much. Diolch. 

I now call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to contribute—Hannah Blythyn. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome this debate today and the opportunity to contribute on behalf of the Welsh Government. The coronavirus pandemic has transformed the way we look at almost everything in our daily lives, including the world of work, and it's given added momentum to the possibility of achieving a better work-life balance that supports both our individual and collective well-being. 

The pace and scale of change in the world of work is immense, and the pandemic has served to intensify interest in more flexible practices, from longer term remote working and working closer to home to more prominent considerations of a shift to a four-day working week. The traditional model of an eight-hour day, five days a week spent in a particular fixed place of work is increasingly out of step with how many workers want to lead their lives, and it's also not the way in which many employers want to organise their own activity.

The continued growth of remote working and automation, as we've heard, are just two of the forces that are acting as both—[Interruption.] Quickly.

With the Plaid Cymru co-operation deal that you're seeking to work with Plaid Cymru, will this be one of the agenda items that you intend to work collectively on? [Members of the Senedd: 'Oh.']

I'm afraid, Janet Finch-Saunders, I think that's well above my pay grade, to answer that question. So, as you heard before, the growth of remote working and things like automation are just two of the forces that are acting as both a push and pull towards different working patterns. Changes that present a challenge, but also an opportunity: a challenge, because outdated and outmoded working practices are no longer fit for purpose, and an opportunity because offering genuine choices in when and how workers work demands a progressive and a just approach to working practices. It wasn't too long ago that from many quarters the pervading position was that working from home wasn't possible, that it, or people even, wouldn't work. Yet, the pandemic, whilst recognising, as we've heard, the different and difficult reality for many workers, has proven otherwise. Luke Fletcher has touched on how, when we move towards it, we need to do it in the right way and guard against any unintended consequences and make sure that that is—. We've seen, with the pandemic, some workers could work from home, and for some it worked best because, like me, I was very lucky to have a place, a room, to work in, but for many people it was a struggle. So, we need to make sure that, like you say, we approach any progressive changes in a progressive and a fair way to ensure equity of opportunity.

Would you take an intervention?

Yes.

I note the Conservatives have said that this isn't devolved, but the workforce of the Welsh Government, the civil service, is certainly within the Welsh Government's gift. Has the Welsh Government given any thought to piloting this kind of scheme within the civil service?

If the Member wouldn't mind, I'll probably get to our approach as we get through the—. I'm trying to actually get through my contribution in the time allocated. But I thank you for the contribution to give us pause for thought as to actually where those opportunities could be to potentially look at things like this in the future. 

This shouldn't actually be about shifting towards a post-work world, but to realising a world of work that is dignified, decent and has well-being at its core—the well-being of the worker, the economy, and our environment. And it absolutely will mean that the worker voice is heard and represented and will require social partnership between both trade unions and employers. 

And I agree on the importance of looking at that international evidence, such as the four-day working week pilot in Iceland, and I will also be taking very close interest in development elsewhere, much closer to home, including in Scotland, where we've heard work is under way to develop a four-day working week pilot, and Welsh Government officials are already in touch with their counterparts in the Scottish Government who are working on that pilot, so we'll be following that very closely and speaking to them on that.

Where we have amended the original Plaid motion, it's just because we think it's great to take a more evidence-based approach, and that means actively considering the progress that's made through the pilots in other countries, and in examining the lessons that Wales can learn, but also placing it within the wider context of improving work in Wales.

The Icelandic pilot, which saw the public sector move from a 40-hour to a 35- or 36-hour week has provided some encouraging evidence. For example, productivity and service provision remained the same or improved across the majority of trial workplaces. However, it did cover a relatively small group of workers, most of whom were employed full time, so we need to consider that in the whole carefully, as we draw conclusions from it. 

In that context, it's also important to recognise the work on the Scottish pilot is still in its early stages. They're working through a number of issues to shape a pilot that has a robust design, and we look forward to looking at the further detail that will emerge from Scotland and to considering the evidence that emerges from the pilots in Ireland and in Spain. My colleague Jack Sargeant—my constituency neighbour Jack Sargeant—I know is hosting an event on this very subject tomorrow evening, and I'm really keen, as well as this debate today, to hear from those experiences, not just the possibilities, but actually addressing some of the challenges we've heard today to make sure—. You know, we can't legislate for maximum hours, but how can we use other levers, and also how can we do it in a way that has that equity of opportunity for workers across sectors?

We oppose amendment 3, tabled by Darren Millar and spoken to by Joel James. There is no question of a four-day week being imposed on employers and workers in Wales. We believe in social partnership and an equal voice for employers and workers. Equally, we won't be supporting amendment 4, also in the name of Darren Millar, which reminds us that employment matters are reserved to the UK Parliament. This debate is not about legislating on employment matters; it's about how we may use our levers to promote and encourage more progressive working practices. And I have to say, from the contributions on the Conservative benches, it seems like the rhetoric and the slogan of levelling up doesn't apply to workers and workplaces.

We will continue to take a close interest in the evidence around a four-day working week, in particular evidence that a four-day working week can improve people's work-life balance, help us cut carbon emissions and air pollution and support gender equality, without resulting in a loss of pay or a lowering of terms and conditions, whilst maintaining, and hopefully improving, productivity.

This Welsh Government is working in social partnership to advance fair work, and I'm committed to undertaking a piece of broader work to look at the future of fair work in Wales, and as such, we look forward to following the developments of pilots in other countries and to drawing lessons from them as part of this work over the coming months, and I look forward to being able to work with colleagues in partnership to take that forward. Diolch.

I now call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’d like to thank Members and, of course, the Deputy Minister for their contributions today.

I have to say that I worry that we might miss an opportunity here. I note the Government's amendment removes the call for a pilot here in Wales, and I appreciate what the Deputy Minister has just said in terms of backing an evidence-based approach. Well, I would say one way of collecting evidence is to do our own pilot. Let's have the ambition to do it ourselves. That is a missed opportunity, I think. We have nothing to lose in pursing a four-day work week, and I would hope that Members would agree that, at the very least, we should trial it here in Wales.

We’ve heard from several Members here today about the benefits to society that a four-day work week could bring. For example, it will improve workers' mental health and well-being, as Carolyn Thomas highlighted; it will promote gender equality, as Sioned Williams highlighted; and it will come with environmental benefits, as Mabon ap Gwynfor highlighted, through the associated reduction in commuting times. Is it a silver bullet? Well, Sioned and Jack have already answered this question for us: no, it's not a silver bullet. And, as Jack actually touched on, this is part of a progressive package of policies such as universal basic income, for example.

But I would also note the Conservative amendment. I hope I have got the wrong end of the stick here, but to me, it seems that, by deleting references to international trials, the Conservatives are burying their heads in the sand here. Those international examples show us how a four-day work week trial can work—there's tangible evidence there for us to look at. To ensure, for example, that wages do not fall as working hours are reduced, Governments will need to legislate so that productivity gains from advances in fields like automation are distributed amongst the workforce rather than benefiting solely the profit margins of big businesses. And those international trials have shown us how this can work.

In terms of reserved powers, which Joel James and Gareth Davies both touched on here, over employment, that isn’t the whole picture. The Deputy Minister, Jane Dodds and Hefin David touched on this. The hours of many public sector employees fall under the devolved powers of Wales, and in many regions, the public sector accounts for over 25 per cent of employment. So, Wales could use the public sector as a 'pioneer' and start by trialling a four-day work week there. There is also an opportunity to use Wales's fair work Act and incentivise shorter working weeks by building it into procurement strategy, which is all above board according to section 60 of the Wales Act 2006, or so I'm told by someone who knows a lot more about this than I. The size of the sector, of course, means that it can influence working hours in other sectors too. And of course, third sector organisations can also lead by example.

COVID-19 has caused a pivot in working practices, with evidence suggesting that compressing the working week with a small reduction in work hours is having multiple benefits. Plaid Cymru’s 2021 Senedd election manifesto stated:

'Explore opportunities for promoting a shorter working week and a better work-life balance.'

A four-day work week is one of those opportunities, and I look forward to this debate going beyond this Chamber. A number of Members have already mentioned Jack Sargeant's event, scheduled tomorrow. For those who aren't convinced, I would implore you to go to that event, hear out the debates.

And, of course, I would reference, as well, something that the TUC General Secretary, Frances O'Grady has said on a four-day work week, and I quote:

'In the nineteenth century, unions campaigned for an eight-hour day. In the twentieth century, we won the right to a two-day weekend and paid holidays. So, for the twenty-first century, let’s lift our ambition again.'

She believes that, in this century, we can win a four-day working week, with decent pay for everyone. And I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. For those who aren’t convinced yet, no doubt there were those who were not convinced by the benefits of having a weekend, as I mentioned earlier. So, keep an open mind. Come join us. 

Russell George rose— 

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course, go for it. 

Thanks, Luke. I listened to this debate with real interest, actually, but what I've found from visiting businesses in my own constituency is that many employers want to be flexible themselves, and I'm particularly finding this as a result of the pandemic. When I visit businesses, employers are offering employees what suits them because they want to get the best employees for their business. They are already offering, if not four days, 'Do you want to finish early? Does it suit you to finish mid afternoon to pick children up?' et cetera. So, I'm just wondering to what extent you think that market forces are perhaps driving the change that you actually might want to see, and that I also agree with.

Well, I am glad to hear that there are some businesses that are looking to go down this route, but the reality is that not all businesses are offering the exact same sort of benefits. It is incumbent, I think, on Government to mandate a four-day work week.

In many ways, as well, and I will reference something that was discussed earlier—I can't remember which of my Conservative colleagues raised it—. I have heard the arguments, of course, that a four-day work week won't work, but I also think that it is incumbent on the Conservative benches to prove to us that the current system is working. Because the reality is that it's not working at all. We have to start thinking about ways forward that will help those in society who are facing burnout, just like postal workers, as Carolyn Thomas mentioned, but also people such as myself, who worked in the hospitality sector. 

Of course, there was reference to the care sector and the struggles that they have in terms of recruiting new workers. I think that it was Gareth Davies who raised this. I would argue that, actually—and I'm sure that I have heard this multiple times in this Chamber—the reason they are struggling to recruit new carers is because of the work-life balance issues within the care sector, and burnout. Something like this will address that. 

Gareth Davies rose—

Thanks, Luke. Just on that point, really. Service demands, and what patients' needs are within the care sector, wouldn't dictate a four-day week anyway. In social care, we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who require the round-the-clock care that a four-day week would not facilitate. 

Well, I thank Gareth for that point, and I'm glad that he actually raised it because we already have examples of services that run seven days a week, which use things called rotas—restaurants, for example. The restaurant that I worked in, Jamie's Italian, was open seven days a week, but I wasn't working seven days. I was rota-ed on to work certain days. So, I hope that would address the issue that Gareth raises there.

To close, Llywydd, a four-day working week is one way to tackle the issues that we face. It's one way to futureproof our economy and provide a better work-life balance for the people of Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. Therefore, I will defer voting until voting time, which is about to happen, but we do need to take a short break to prepare for those votes. So, a short break.

Plenary was suspended at 17:43.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:48, with the Llywydd in the Chair.