The next item is a statement by the First Minister on inter-governmental relations, and I call on the First Minister to make that statement. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Today, I publish the Welsh Government’s annual report on inter-governmental relations for the period 2020-21. The report is part of this Government's commitment to transparency with the Senedd on inter-institutional and inter-governmental relations. I will continue to report on our relations and joint working with other Governments in the UK as well as with our British-Irish Council partners. I recently agreed with the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee to renew our inter-institutional relations agreement for this sixth Senedd, and our officials are working on this.

Llywydd, it will come as a surprise to no-one to hear that there are major differences in outlook between the Welsh Government and the United Kingdom Government. However, the relationship is a vitally important one. When it is characterised by mutual respect, flexibility and a focus on where agreement can be found, the relationship can produce benefits for Wales and for the UK as a whole. When it falters, the results are inevitably disappointing. 

The period of this report focuses on the twin challenges of COVID-19 and the European transition period. Both challenges underlined the need for strong structures and a reliable rhythm of communication between Governments. The extent to which this was achieved in practice was variable, with some positive outcomes in some aspects of COVID-19 but a more uniformly dismal story on European transition. 

The pandemic has highlighted the way in which devolved and reserved responsibilities are interconnected. As a Welsh Government and as a Senedd we have had to make decisions, and we continue to do so, in what we believe to be the best interests of Wales. But we have approached those decisions in the context of shared scientific, economic and social links between Wales and the rest of the UK. Our public services too have, of course, co-operated in the same way in very many practical aspects. 

Wherever there is a reciprocal willingness to do so, the Welsh Government aims to continue co-operation with the UK Government on the next phase of COVID response and recovery, including operational and financial implications. Earlier in the summer, a COVID summit took place that illustrated the value of joint working in areas of common interest, and we in Wales are particularly interested in ensuring that our green agenda is central to the approach to recovery.

It's in that context that the UK comprehensive spending review is critical to our relationship with the UK Government. We need genuine partnership and an agreed approach to an investment-driven recovery that benefits Wales. Where it is sensible to work on a four-nations basis, we should do so, and it is essential that the UK Government establishes adequate structures to allow that to happen. 

Now, as a very practical example of inter-governmental solidarity, we have called on the UK Government to work urgently with us to develop a joint strategy and a funding programme for long-term remediation of coal tip sites. The Senedd will debate this issue this afternoon. Coal tips were created long before devolution was even envisaged. It is nonsensical to argue, as the UK Government does, that here in Wales we have either the responsibility or the resource to deal alone with this quintessentially legacy issue. Llywydd, instead of this highly sensitive matter being a subject of contention, it ought to be a defining example of how the UK Government can work with us to develop effective benefits from inter-governmental working, and that particularly so in the context of the UK hosting COP26.

As I said earlier, Llywydd, collaboration during the pandemic has yielded some positive examples of inter-governmental working. This year, we have had regular meetings between devolved Governments and the then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, covering COVID-19 and other business. I look forward to this continuing following the recent reshuffle, where Michael Gove retains, as I understand it, responsibility for inter-governmental relations. The vaccination programme is a further example of how things can be done well, with agreement on central procurement, shared on a population basis across the UK, but with delivery managed by each nation. Beyond COVID, Llywydd, we have worked jointly on common frameworks, devised as a result of leaving the European Union, with provisional agreement between the Governments, hopefully to be followed by final agreement later this year.

The Welsh Government continues to enjoy strong relationships with other devolved Governments, and particularly with the British-Irish Council members. I look forward to welcoming the BIC to Wales, later this autumn, for its thirty-sixth summit, and I will return to the Senedd at a later date with further information for Members on the British-Irish Council meeting in Wales. Earlier this month, I attended the annual meeting of the British-Irish Association. There was an opportunity there to share a platform with the Northern Ireland First Minister, Paul Givan, and to meet with representatives of other parties within the Executive. In November, Welsh Ministers will take part in the COP26 discussions in Glasgow, working with the Scottish Government to maximise the contribution we can make to combating climate change alongside other regional Governments.

These relationships with other UK nations are a very important component of our inter-governmental efforts and ones that allow us both to work closely with others and to promote Welsh interests. What we need, however, is for these positive examples to become the norm in inter-governmental relations. A voluntary union of four nations is far more likely to be sustained into the future where we have a pattern of respectful, regular and reliable engagement, with clearly established robust and rules-based inter-governmental machinery. What we have in practice is piecemeal, ad hoc and sporadic co-operation. At best, it's capable of delivering useful outcomes, but far too often it leaves frustration and silence where dialogue and delivery were needed.

I regret that our bilateral relations with the UK Government are too often poor and difficult. Their muscular unionism, their hostility to devolution, and their aggressive unilateralism is entirely counter-productive and at odds with sentiment here in Wales. It is very difficult to reconcile the positive overtures made some of the time, by some UK Ministers, with the aggressive incursions they make into devolved areas, for example through their legislative programme and their spending plans, holding back money that should come to Wales, and taking back responsibilities that are clearly devolved.

Llywydd, it does not have to be this way. The Welsh Government wants a strong Wales in a successful United Kingdom. Our document 'Reforming our Union: Shared Governance in the UK', published in its second edition in June of this year, outlines such a positive future. It envisages an enduring union, utilising devolution as a strength and working together in ways that would persuade citizens in all four nations to want to belong to it. To take this work forward here in Wales, we will soon announce some details of our own new constitutional commission. The 'Reforming our Union' document will be available to it as it begins its deliberations, and I hope, of course, that others too will come forward with creative and workable ideas.

Llywydd, I had hoped to be able to set out today for the Senedd the culmination of the inter-governmental relations review, commissioned as long ago as 2018. Earlier this year, the publication of a draft package of reforms showed a growing level of consensus between the Governments, with relatively few remaining areas to be agreed. That is not to say that each Government will get everything it wanted, because, inevitably and quite rightly, this has been a process of negotiation and compromise. But, progress has been made and I try to remain optimistic that the review is finally ready to be concluded. Final details were being negotiated as the UK Government reshuffle took place, and now it remains to be seen whether this has implications for concluding the review satisfactorily. 

The draft reform programme represents a significant improvement and it includes new structures to facilitate better dialogue. In spite of a generally challenging relationship with the UK Government, here are some important steps set out in the review: it will establish a new inter-governmental machinery for regular meetings at all levels of Government; it would see increased parity of esteem and participation; for the first time, it would create an impartial secretariat; and it sets out an improved dispute avoidance and resolution mechanism, with the ability to include independent input into disputes and with greater transparency about their resolution. 

For this afternoon, Llywydd, I'd like to end on that positive note. The context of inter-governmental relations is difficult, but progress can be made. I hope that next year I will be able to report that issues as profound as the future of the United Kingdom are being addressed with the seriousness that they so urgently deserve.

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement. As you say, it should come to no-one's surprise in this Chamber that because of the political differences between the Welsh Labour Government and the UK Conservative Government there are, at times, tensions; that's understandable in a democracy that throws up Governments of different colours in Wales and at a UK level. So, I am a little disappointed, looking at some of the phrases and words in your statement today, because they don't entirely marry up to the document that you've published, which I thought, by and large, highlighted lots of positive engagement that was taking place at all sorts of levels between Ministers and officials in the Welsh Government, the UK Government and, indeed, the other devolved nations across the whole of the United Kingdom.

The document talks about the Joint Biosecurity Centre, it talks about the good work on the vaccination programme, the collaboration around the pandemic, the weekly meetings that are taking place between many Government departments here and Government departments at a UK level, the fact that Welsh Ministers have been participating in COBRA meetings, the engagement that there has been on the common frameworks, and the good, positive work that has been done as well in terms of engaging the Welsh Government in discussions on new trade deals. So, I thought it was a little bit disappointing to hear the First Minister commenting on lots of the negative aspects of the report, which, by and large—and I would encourage anybody to read it—goes against the grain of what you're saying in the fuller document.

It is important that we do have good working relationships, for the sake of the people of Wales, between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and that's why I'm pleased that the UK Government did commission the inter-governmental review and that there has been a great deal of progress and agreement between the devolved nations and the UK Government on a framework for engagement in the future. You outlined, very positively I thought, some of the aspects of that that have already been agreed, and we very much look forward to seeing the final outcome. Of course, the delay in the publication of that document and the finalisation of that document is largely down to the pandemic, which has been a significant distraction, of course, for everybody, understandably so. But I do think that many of the challenges that we have experienced in the past as a result of the two different political parties being in Government at both ends of the M4 will be overcome as a result of the frameworks that will, hopefully, be put in place.

I noted that the First Minister made reference to coal tips, and I have to say, First Minister, that I and my colleagues on the Welsh Conservative benches completely agree that there needs to be a joint, collaborative approach to addressing the concerns about coal tips here in Wales, given that they are indeed a legacy from the pre-devolution era. That is entirely appropriate and I don’t recognise the reluctance that you seem to suggest is there in terms of the engagement of the UK Government on that particular issue.

You also made reference, of course, to the need for Wales to get its fair share of funding. I would remind you and everybody else in this Chamber today that Wales has received £8.6 billion extra from the UK Government as a result of the pandemic. That’s a membership dividend, if you like, from the fact that Wales is an important part of the United Kingdom—a constituent part of the United Kingdom. I make no apologies for the fact that I think the UK Government has done a very good job in terms of making that cash available to Wales when it needed it in order that it could plan an effective response. So, I do think that, at times, Welsh Government Ministers need to have a bit of a thicker skin when it comes to the occasional disagreement, which is entirely predictable because of the fact that there are political differences between the two political parties.

Can I ask you, First Minister: do you accept some responsibility for the occasional souring of relationships between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, particularly given the disruption and the disruptive way that your party behaved in trying to prevent the UK’s departure from the European Union? I think that that process—that did sour relationships, it was divisive, and I think at times very unnecessary, given that everybody had to get on and deliver on the outcome of that referendum. There were people in the Labour Party here in Wales, and indeed in England, who are still wanting to go back and reverse the decision of the British people and, remember, the people of Wales, because the majority of people here in Wales voted to leave the EU. But that actually did sour relationships. I don’t think it was always necessary, but, of course, I would hope that you would accept some responsibility on the part of your party for the souring of those relationships at that time.

Now, those things, of course, are behind us, hopefully, and we can press on and make sure that the relationships are improved in the future. And with your indulgence, Llywydd, if I may—

You're testing me here now. You're out of time.

I want to end on a positive note.

All right; inject some positivity, then.

I was very pleased, First Minister, to hear your references to engagement with Ireland through the British-Irish Council and indeed the other work that you’ve been doing. Obviously, I’m a proud Irish citizen as well as being a British citizen, and I think that those relationships are extremely important for Wales, given the fact that we have a fellow Celtic nation that wants to engage positively with us, and I think that the collaboration with the Republic of Ireland will be extremely important into the future. So, I do look forward to you making further statements on the British-Irish Council, and look forward, hopefully, to the outcome of the inter-governmental review being implemented so that these relationships can prosper in the future.

I thank Darren Millar for that. My own assessment of my statement would be that I was doing my best to err on the side of generosity through it all. I struck out references to the shared prosperity fund, to the poisonous impact of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, to the struggles to persuade the Treasury to operate the rules by which it itself ought to be bound, because I wanted—I'm going to do that as much as I can—to emphasise the need for positive relationships between all Governments across the United Kingdom. And that is what I was attempting to do.

The IGR, when it reports, I hope it will do what Darren Millar said: I hope it will set out a set of structures that will give us the robustness of inter-governmental machinery that will avoid some of the ad hoc nature of contact between the four nations in recent times. But structures are only one part of inter-governmental relationships; culture is another, and we will have to see the spirit with which that is approached.

I notice with great interest what the Member said about coal tips, and we have had some joint approach here. The coal tips group that was established in the aftermath of flooding in 2019 has been jointly chaired by the Secretary of State and myself. Here is where the rub comes, Llywydd: the Coal Authority, an entirely non-devolved body, entirely the responsibility of the UK Government, has done fantastic work. We have a much better sense of where we have vulnerabilities with coal tips, and we have a much better sense of what it will cost to put those right. The Coal Authority has been—it's still working on it, I know, but it's been proposing a programme of £600-million worth of investment over a 10-year period to put right the things that were left when this institution came into being. And despite the fact that there is no funding stream at all in Wales for that purpose, the Treasury writes letters of astonishing arrogance to us, saying that as far as they're concerned, there won't be a penny piece towards it, and that we are going to have to find ourselves that £600 million from budgets that come to us to build hospitals, to build roads, to build schools and to do all the other things for which we are responsible. And that's why I pointed to it as an area where, if ever there was an opportunity for a UK Government to be able to demonstrate to people in Wales the dividend that comes with being in the United Kingdom, joint working with us on that issue would surely be it.

You see—two last points, Llywydd—the way the Member talked about the cash that came to Wales during the pandemic, I think, just illustrates the gulf that separates us. Wales didn't get that money by the generosity of some UK Government; we are not a client state of the UK Government. The money comes to Wales because Welsh citizens pay into the pot from which we then draw out. It's that whole sense of—you know, the absence of any sense of an equality of the relationship that I think distinguishes the way we think about it on our side and the way that the Conservative Party conceptualises things.

But let me end, as Darren Millar did, with a positive note: he will know that we have a new agreement with the Government of the Republic of Ireland to strengthen relationships between us. We expect a delegation of a number of Ministers from that Government to come to Wales in October, to spend a whole day here in Wales, meeting others, looking at projects of mutual interest and strengthening our ability to work on essential issues, like the joint use of the Celtic sea and the marine possibilities that it offers us, and I look forward to being able to report to Members on that work.

As you would expect, I think you were overly generous and too fair in your assessment of the situation, as far as the attitude of the UK Government towards us, is. It's true for you, as it is for all of us, that your greatest strength is your cautious approach in trying to persuade people. But that can become a weakness when you face the UK Government, which has such an unreasonable and arrogant attitude to the perfectly reasonable ideas that you've set out once again this afternoon. And the question is: what do you do in that situation?

I am familiar with Westminster, unfortunately. I was there recently and it hasn't changed at all: this cathedral on the banks of the Thames full of arrogance. Don't think for a moment that they believe in the potential of some equal partnership with us here in Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland. They see us as servile, and that's their attitude. They believe in the sovereignty of Westminster and Westminster alone. So, what do we do in this situation? That's the question, and I would urge you—. There's another example this afternoon, the LCM; there's a flotilla of LCMs approaching us now. And, of course, they know that they can't abolish this Senedd, but what they do, of course, is to seek to undermine us step by step—the subsidy Bill last week, the internal market Bill—removing our financial foundations time and time again. But surely we have to stand together and reject this.

May I suggest a few things, because I think the report is useful, and I am still enough of an economist to believe in the value of data? So, why not have transparency? Why not demonstrate in these reports the number of times, First Minister, you've asked for meetings to discuss important issues, and where they've either rejected those calls or ignored them? How many times have you been invited very late in the day to meetings covering devolved areas, when the agenda hasn't been shared with you and neither have the background papers, and that prevents you, therefore, from making a meaningful contribution to the discussion? So, let us see the real nature of that relationship, and have some sort of log, if you like, of the nature of the arrogance shown by the Government in Westminster towards us here in Wales.

May I also ask you whether you would be willing to build on what is the foundation of this report and show transparency on the relationship, but also to open that out to the public in Wales? So, not only a report to the Senedd as we have here, but engagement with the people of Wales, who should know the facts about the attitudes demonstrated by the UK Government, and perhaps through the constitutional commission and the national conversation that you've referred to, that could be done. 

And finally, isn't the only way in which we're going to demonstrate our opposition to this kind of attitude that we collaborate, here in Wales across parties, even, of course, where we disagree on the answer in terms of the constitutional future for Wales—and it's very important, following on from what the independence bodies said yesterday that they should be part of the national conversation, and that should be reflected in the national conversation's remit—but also that there should be collaboration across the Celtic nations? And if they have their muscular unionism, then let's have muscular collaboration across the Celtic nations, across parties—yes, including with the Scottish Government, who, of course, have a different perspective on the constitutional future of these islands. But, in this sense, we are united; we oppose this conservatism from Westminster that denies our right here in Wales and in the other nations to plough our own furrow.

Thank you very much to Adam Price. And when I responded to Darren Millar, I expected Darren Millar to say I was being too mean to the UK Government, and I was expecting Adam Price to say that I was being too friendly. There are a number of important points that Adam Price has raised, and there are a number of examples where I can draw attention to examples where the UK Government hasn't been reasonable with us at all. It's something small but it does show the context. We are responsible for the next meeting of the British-Irish Council. The subject to be discussed in the council is minority languages. So, we will be leading in Wales on the work that is going on, and it's important work, and it's important in Ireland, in the whole island. We wanted to invite people from Cornwall to attend the council, not to speak, because they're not members of the council, but just to listen to the discussion and, when they had things to say, outwith the council, they would have an opportunity to do so. The UK Government weren't willing for that to happen at all. So, it was a small idea, which is relevant to us in Wales, because we're responsible for that subject in the council, and reasonable, as Adam Price said, but no, nothing. A complete lack of willingness to allow that, and we're the ones planning the meeting and were responsible for that meeting. They weren't willing to agree on that small idea. I use that as an example of the thinking or the mindset that you find when you try to do reasonable things, as Adam Price said.

In terms of the LCMs, one of the things that are vital for next year is the Sewel convention. Now, we have set out in our document ways to strengthen that convention, and we have worked with others on those ideas as well. If the UK Government thinks that Sewel means nothing, well, that's going to cause more and more problems.

And, Llywydd, Adam Price suggested a number of possibilities to strengthen the report and to use the report for other purposes, and I welcome those ideas, and we're willing to consider those. When you work with Scotland and Northern Ireland, you work with people from very different political backgrounds, and that's a great thing, isn't it, because you learn things and you find ways of collaborating with people from those different backgrounds, and to do that alongside the people who live in Scotland, Ireland and Wales, that's something I'm eager to strengthen over the coming year.

First Minister, thank you for the statement but also for this report, which I would thoroughly recommend to any student of current constitutional arrangements looking at this moment in time at what it means for Wales and the UK. I think it is fair to say, as Darren pointed out, there are some good bits in here, but I have to say it's a mixed picture as well, and it does, within the reading of this report, actually show some of—a bit like the current weather, there are lots of storms in here and then the occasional glimpse of good weather coming through those storms. I haven't got time to go through them today, I want to focus on one issue in particular, but I do note that within this report, Welsh Government lays out once again its vision of seeing a strong Wales in a successful UK—the need to reset inter-governmental relations based on a vision of a reformed and strengthened UK where all the Governments work together for mutual benefit.

Which brings us, in the absence of being able to go through all of this, which I've thoroughly enjoyed reading, and I know the committee will be interested in reading, to turn to the issue of the inter-governmental relations review, which may be one of those glimpses of sunshine through the storm, But I wasn't clear from the First Minister's statement. The Counsel General, when he was in front of the committee the other day, seemed to hold out some hope that we might indeed be progressing and there might be something to be cheerful about. But what hope does he have that the inter-governmental relations review, which could be that major reset in the relations between the nations of the UK, could be that opportunity to go beyond the storm clouds and into something that looks a little bit more sunny, or should we temper our expectations?

Llywydd, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies. I tried to say in my opening statement that I wanted to be optimistic about the IGR, because a huge amount of work has gone into it, by officials particularly. And some of the biggest breakthroughs in the IGR have been in areas for which the Welsh Government, and our officials, have been responsible. So, the fact that it includes an independent element in dispute resolution is a complete breakthrough—we've never had that at all. The UK Government has been the judge, the jury, the sentencer, the Court of Appeal all by itself, and now that won't be the case. When we tried, with the Scottish Government, Llywydd—you may remember—to raise a dispute over the £1 billion that went to Northern Ireland, without any comparable sums coming to Wales, Scotland, or indeed to England, the UK Government simply told us that, in their view, there was not a dispute. So, we had written, saying, declaring a dispute, and they wrote back and said, 'In our view, there isn't a dispute, and so we won't be taking it any further.' Well, that won't be possible if the IGR is concluded. Why do I hesitate? Because we were—. I've been told, for several months now, that we are just on the brink of signing it. We were due to sign it before the summer recess; it didn't happen. We were due to sign it before we came back; it didn't happen. We were due to sign it just before the reshuffle, and it didn't happen. So, I want to be optimistic, because I think that a huge amount of work has been done, and it gives us a new platform and a new chance to reset those relationships, but until it's in the bag, I won't be putting any flags out of any description.

I'd like to thank the First Minister for his statement. I think it's right to highlight areas in which the Welsh Government and the UK Government, working together, have benefited Wales. We've seen the vaccine roll-out, which has been an absolute great success in keeping the residents of Wales safe. As I've mentioned earlier, about growth deals, they have been a great success in growing the economy of Wales and actually the two Governments working together and the additional moneys that have been sent to Wales to support businesses, and the work you've done with the UK Government together on that has really benefited businesses.

But I think a lot of what you've talked about here, First Minister, is respect. And I think respect could be reciprocated, I believe, on both sides of the M4—both up and down. And respect is key to good relationships and the work we do in this place, and it goes to the core of what we all believe. But comments made by the deputy leader of the Labour Party over the past couple of days haven't gone any further to actually building any relationships between your party and mine, and it's actually created a lot of deep hurt and upset.

First Minister, I know you're a very decent and honourable person, and, as the leader of the Welsh Government, comments that were made by your deputy leader in Westminster go no way to helping inter-governmental relationships. So, I do believe, First Minister, if you were to condemn these comments, I do believe it would bring our parties closer together and really help with inter-government relationships, because people being called 'scum' is not nice and it's not kinder and it's not gentle politics.

Llywydd, I've heard everything the Member has to say.

My constituents, like many people in north-east Wales, have closer ties to Chester, Liverpool and Manchester than what they do to Cardiff. How is the Welsh Government working with metro mayors in the north-west of England to achieve common goals and promote shared services? Cross-border issues are of particular concern in the Vale of Clwyd, so how are the Welsh Government looking to work with the UK Government and English local authorities to address greater cross-border working, particularly in health and care? Finally, First Minister, what impact is the Mersey Dee Alliance having on the north Wales growth deal, and how is the Welsh Government working to improve closer working between local authorities, such as Denbighshire County Council, the Welsh and UK Governments to improve the economic fortunes of the entire region on both sides of Offa's Dyke? Thank you very much.

I thank the Member, because I think those are genuinely important points. And I think, as we design inter-governmental arrangements for the future, then ways of being able to draw in regional voices in England will be very important in all of that. Now, in the last few days, I've had opportunities to meet with metro mayors from many parts of England, and that includes the north-west as well, and the Mersey Dee Alliance is a very important part of the landscape for the economy of north-east Wales. 

One of the difficulties of finding a way of acting—I'm thinking of the right word, for a moment, Llywydd—in a thoroughgoing way with metro mayors is they're all different—they all have different powers, they all have different responsibilities; there's no pattern. So, you can't have just a single approach that is easy to take from one set of relations to another. But I think the general point that the Member makes is an important one, and that, as metro mayors and English devolution mature, then, those relationships along our border, in the north-east with Liverpool and Manchester, but with the south-west of England as well, will be very important to Wales. 

I thank the First Minister. That concludes that item. We will now take a short break to allow changeovers in the Chamber. 

Plenary was suspended at 15:36.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:48, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.