The next item is item 5—the legislative consent motion on the Environment Bill. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM7781 Julie James

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Environment Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion. I thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee for considering the legislative consent memoranda. I am sorry the full six weeks usually allocated for scrutiny was not possible; however, I was pleased to negotiate timetabling changes to the Bill, allowing for more scrutiny time and the opportunity to provide oral and written evidence to the committee.

Amendments to the Environment Bill by the UK Government required a supplementary legislative consent memorandum, laid on 3 September. I am grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration of the supplementary memorandum. As a result, I advise the Senedd that consideration of consent should include clause 144, which amends Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006. The amendment, which was referenced in memorandum 1, ensures the Senedd can remove the concurrent plus powers without requiring Minister of the Crown consent.

In light of the committee's report, I asked officials to look again at this issue. The provision falls within the Standing Order 29.1(ii) in that it modifies the legislative competence of the Senedd. I agreed with the committee that consent is required and should be considered today. The committee also asked me to consider amendments to Schedules 4, 5, 6, 7 and 11 to require relevant national authorities to consult before making regulations. Memorandum 1 advised that the relevant national authority in relation to Wales is the Welsh Ministers, and outlined the need for the consent of the Senedd to the powers within these Schedules. I consider the amendments added to these provisions were covered by the general requirement for consent outlined in memorandum 1.

The Bill has taken some time to progress through Parliament since its original introduction in January 2020. Both Parliaments have seen their legislative programmes severely impacted because of Brexit and COVID. Despite the delays, the Bill remains a viable route to progress Welsh Government policies and programme for government commitments. Devolved powers are sought in relation to waste and resource efficiency, air quality, water and the regulation of chemicals. We also consider consent is needed for clause 21, which was previously 19, 'Statements about Bills containing new environment law', and clause 119, previously 109, on forest risk commodities. Members will note we have agreed an approach with UK Government on these issues.

Generally, primary legislation in devolved areas should be enacted by the Senedd. In this instance it is, however, sensible and advantageous to seek provisions in the UK Bill with the consent of the Senedd. We have sought powers in the Bill in areas where there is value in adopting co-operative approaches to deliver across the UK administrations. Part 3 of the Bill will provide the legislative framework to meet commitments in 'Beyond Recycling' to deliver an extended producer responsibility scheme for packaging waste and a deposit-return scheme for drinks containers. Given businesses subject to the schemes will operate across the nations, consistency is required. The timetable for introduction of these schemes can only be achieved if we take powers in this Bill. To provide flexibility in developing future schemes for other materials, we are seeking the option of legislating on a Wales-only basis, bringing forward mirror regulations or allowing the Secretary of State to legislate on our behalf for UK-wide schemes. Our default will be to legislate in the Senedd wherever possible.

Part 3 also provides the Welsh Government with the ability to introduce charges for single-use plastic items. This will help deliver our programme for government commitment to abolish the use of commonly littered single-use plastics. Clause 69, which was previously 67, allows the Welsh Ministers to prescribe conditions in respect of litter enforcement. The amendment to this provision, included in the supplementary consent memorandum, will require that guidance is laid before the Senedd. Taking these powers at the same time as England mitigates the risk of a lower standard in Wales.

Powers to develop a UK-wide digital waste tracking system will enable the tracking of waste across borders and the gathering of data to tackle waste crime. It will help develop extended producer responsibility controls for other materials. The powers to tackle waste crime include strengthening NRW's powers to prevent illegal activity and the unauthorised deposit of waste.

Part 4 clarifies the Welsh Ministers' responsibility for producing clean air plans for Wales. The Wales-only provision in the Bill seeks to improve our smoke-control regime, contributing to the reduction of emissions in the atmosphere.

The powers in Part 5 update the regulatory process for water resources management plans. These plans will enable us to continue to plan for the future and regulate the quality of our drinking water and water bodies. The concurrent plus power under clause 90, previously clause 83, relates to river basin districts, including the Rivers Severn, Wye and Dee, which are cross border and where it is necessary to be aligned with DEFRA to ensure a common approach.

Clause 143, previously 133, and Schedule 21 are required as a result of the UK's departure from the EU. The regulation of chemicals features a combination of UK-wide and domestic provisions. The Welsh Ministers had powers under the European Communities Act 1972 to amend these regulations, which have been lost as a result of leaving the EU. The provisions enable Ministers to keep the UK-GB REACH regime up to date, including mirroring changes to EU REACH if required. They also allow the Secretary of State, where appropriate, to legislate on behalf of the Welsh Ministers with their consent, providing for a unified regulatory system. Our approach to legislating is to maximise outcomes for the people of Wales by considering the capacity we have to introduce our own legislation and opportunities available in the UK Government's legislative programme. 

I consider these provisions fall within the legislative competence, and therefore recommend the Senedd provides consent. Diolch.

I call the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to contribute to today's debate on behalf of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee, as you said. Before I turn to the motion before us today, I'd like to thank the Minister for responding to the committee's report in advance of the debate. Having said that, Members will see that there is still a lack of clarity around several key issues, and I'm afraid the response doesn't move things forward in a way that we would have liked to see. 

As a committee, we have been clear that the most appropriate way to legislate for Wales on environmental matters, of course, is through a Bill made by the Senedd. We understand that the Welsh Government plans to bring forward such a Bill to the Senedd, but we also know that that could be some years away. So, we find ourselves in a position of having to choose between the UK Bill or the possibility or likelihood of a delay of two or three years while we wait for a Welsh Bill. It's no wonder therefore that some Members will feel that consenting to the provisions in the UK Bill is the only choice that they have if they want to see important environmental policies on the statute book.

In this Chamber last week, the Counsel General said that it was disrespectful, and I will quote, to announce

'legislation that clearly is going to impact on us but where we do not have any proper engagement on that legislation, on those issues that may affect us, and we are presented with that legislation almost at the last minute, almost as though it is a fait accompli.'

Now, the Counsel General was talking about the way in which the UK Government often treats the Welsh Government, but he could quite easily have been talking about the way in which the Welsh Government uses the LCM process in this Senedd. As a committee, we are concerned that there may be a pattern emerging: the Welsh Government recognises the need for legislation, but is very slow to bring forward its own proposals, if at all. 

Let us consider the issue of environmental governance. The Welsh Government has been aware of the potential for gaps in environmental governance in Wales since the result of the referendum back in 2016. Before long, Wales will be the only UK nation without legislation in place for a bespoke environmental governance system. There will be no environmental governance Bill in year one of the legislative programme of the Government, and that's five years after the referendum. 

Another policy area covered in the UK Bill is clean air, as we heard from the Minister earlier. This is a subject that has cross-party support in this Chamber. Now, the Welsh Government consulted on a White Paper on this subject before the election but, again, there will be no Welsh Bill in the first year of the legislative programme. Minister, where are these important Welsh Bills? The committee recommended that you should commit to bringing these Bills forward in the second year of the legislative programme, if not in the first year. You have accepted these recommendations in principle only, therefore there is no commitment of any sort to do that and we are therefore no further forward, in truth. 

We are concerned that the reason for this may be a lack of capacity in the legal department of the Welsh Government, and we appreciate, of course, the need to balance priorities and manage resources. This must have been very difficult over recent years, first with Brexit and then, of course, more recently with COVID. But that doesn't change the fact that we remain concerned that a lack of capacity may be delaying the introduction of key environmental legislation. But we would be even more concerned if the Welsh Government, because of staffing shortages, chose to use Westminster Bills rather than Welsh Bills to legislate in devolved areas.  

On this matter, the Minister tells us that resources are reviewed regularly to mitigate risks. Apparently, 'There is nothing to see here, and there are no issues with a lack of capacity.' But in response to a later recommendation, the Minister says that other work is on hold due to resource constraints. Again, we are no further forward.

Given the choice before us, we as a committee have recommended that the Senedd consents to the provisions in the UK Bill. But—and this is a very significant and important 'but'—we have been very clear that this should be conditional on a satisfactory response by the Welsh Government to specific recommendations in our report, as a committee of this Senedd. So, let me set out briefly our thinking behind some of those recommendations.

First, recommendations 1 and 2, which relate to the concurrent plus powers in several parts of the UK Bill. Now, these powers would enable the UK Secretary of State to make important environmental regulations for Wales on behalf of Welsh Ministers, albeit with their consent. The effect of this would be, of course, to bypass Senedd scrutiny of those regulations. Instead, scrutiny would be undertaken by the UK Parliament.

We've been clear in our report that we're not averse to a UK-wide approach to regulation making, where appropriate, but it has to be exactly that. It has to involve all of the UK legislatures, not just the UK Parliament. Now, we seek to address that, but what we have of course is that the Minister rejects recommendation 1. She will not, or maybe can not, secure amendments to the Bill. She tells us that instead of a formal procedure, the Senedd will be given an opportunity to express a view, and only then where time allows. Well, this doesn't go far enough, and will be of no reassurance to members of our committee, or indeed Members of the wider Senedd, and yes, I know you're going to call me to order because time has passed.

So, look, this is a significant and wide-ranging Bill, covering a key devolved policy area. It will affect all our constituents. But I'm afraid it's becoming apparent that the Welsh Government is using the LCM process as some sort of means of brokering an agreement between inter-governmental negotiations, rather than being about agreements between the legislatures. It can't be right that the Member of Parliament for Orkney and Shetland will be able to scrutinise environmental policy for Wales, which is supposedly devolved, where Members of the Senedd for Monmouth, Ceredigion and Aberconwy cannot.

Chairs have a duty and a right to ensure that Members are fully aware of the conclusions in their reports, but I ask all Chairs to ensure that they do so in a timely manner.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

I'll do my best, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I preface my remarks by thanking my committee members for their scrutiny, and our clerking team as well, and note, in advance of my comments, that when our committee does its job well, it will sometimes make for challenging listening for the Government as well?

As the Minister told us, the Bill has got a long history, and our predecessor committee published two reports on the Bill in the fifth Senedd. We reported on this memorandum and the supplementary memorandum last Thursday. We made four recommendations, having taken evidence from the Minister, and I really do thank her for her open engagement that she had with us in July, and we've been in receipt of correspondence from the Minister in August. 

Now, in light of the long history of this Bill—the UK Bill—we are disappointed at the lack of information contained in the memorandum. At the start of the sixth Senedd, with new Members elected, the first memorandum should have been better in making the case for the Senedd to give its consent. So, in our view, it is regrettable that the Welsh Government does not feel in a position to follow the principle that was outlined in its first memorandum, that primary legislation in devolved areas should be enacted by the Senedd. I'll expand on this briefly.

Despite it being a devolved area, this policy area, the Minister put forward numerous reasons to justify the UK Government legislating on environmental policy in Wales. While these included the benefits of UK co-ordination, surprisingly the Minister also said that, and I quote, 

'if we only use Senedd legislation, we just wouldn't get everything done'.

Now, whilst it may be 'sensible' and 'advantageous', in the Minister's words, for the Welsh Government to include provisions in a UK Government Bill as stated in the first memorandum, it does not follow that it is in the best interests of the Senedd's responsibility of holding the Welsh Government to account and legislating for Wales. The Minister highlighted the significant amount of work that has gone into ensuring that the Bill fully protects Welsh interests and reflects the needs of Wales, and we take that point. But, fully protecting Welsh needs and interests through legislation is the function of the Senedd in devolved areas, rather than the Welsh Government in negotiation with the UK Government.

So, the Minister's suggestion that there is a need for the Welsh Government to rely on the UK Government and UK Parliament to get its legislative programme, therefore, is slightly disconcerting. This stance denies the Senedd and its elected Members the ability to directly influence and shape legislation that will become law in Wales. Furthermore, it also relies on there being good inter-governmental relations, which we've talked about this afternoon in here, with successive UK Governments and Ministers, and there's no guarantee of a successful outcome with that.

So, we therefore recommended that a future Welsh environmental Bill should address devolved issues contained within the UK Government's Environment Bill, following appropriate consultation with stakeholders. I welcome the Minister's response accepting this recommendation, albeit in principle, and we look forward to scrutinising a future Welsh environment Bill.

I would now like to mention the use of the Bill to give Welsh Ministers the power to make regulations. In particular, the Bill includes concurrent plus powers to make regulations where cross-border arrangements would be beneficial in relation to producer responsibility obligations, resource efficiency, deposit schemes and chemicals legislation, known popularly and colloquially as REACH. However, the inclusion of concurrent plus powers in the Bill does not appear, we say, to be in line with the Welsh Government's own guidance. Our second recommendation, therefore, called on the Welsh Government to seek an amendment to the Bill removing these powers. So, it is disappointing that the Minister has rejected that. In line with our third recommendation, the Minister's response explains the reasons why they've not been removed. However, it remains to us unclear why the inclusion of concurrent plus powers in the Bill is being progressed against, seemingly, the Welsh Government's own guidance.

Turning now to other regulation-making powers provided to Welsh Ministers through the Bill, in the main they are subject to either a slightly vague timetable for their use or have no timetable whatsoever attached at all. The Minister's case for taking these powers appears to be based on speed and a lack of resources. We don't consider these to be valid reasons normally. We consider that this diminishes the role of the Senedd as a legislature having responsibility and oversight of powers to be delegated to Welsh Ministers in devolved areas.

We did not have time to explore the implications of the second memorandum fully, but our fourth and final recommendation asked the Minister to confirm that there are additional provisions that require consent and that were not identified in the second memorandum. We note her response on those points and we thank her for that.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, our report draws the Senedd's attention to an important issue. It highlights that most areas covered in the Bill are now subject to provisions in the trade and co-operation agreement between the UK and EU. The Welsh Government's uncertainty around TCA requirements—I am nearly finished, Dirprwy Lywydd—coupled with the lack of clarity around how and when powers provided by the Bill are to be exercised, means that the approach taken by the Welsh Government to meet its obligations is unclear. This includes the extent to which it intends to rely on UK-wide measures that could introduce different policy or divergence from the EU.

The greater the reliance on UK Government legislation to action UK-EU obligations in Wales, the more difficult it becomes—you can see the theme—for the Senedd to effectively scrutinise the Welsh Government's compliance with these obligations. It affects our ability to scrutinise whether the Welsh Government is acting in the best interests of Wales. This might well be a theme, Dirprwy Lywydd, we return to in future, but I genuinely thank the Minister for her engagement with us and Members for their scrutiny of this, as there are some important issues within this.

Minister, the UK Government's Environment Bill looks to certainly address the twin challenges of climate change and biodiversity loss, all the while seeking to protect and improve the natural environment and its species for future generations. By establishing the office for environmental protection, which will have scrutiny, advice and enforcement functions in relation to environmental protection and the natural environment, covering England and UK-wide reserved matters, the UK Government is actually looking to set the benchmark for excellence in environmental regulation. 

In contrast, however, this Welsh Government has consistently placed long-term arrangements for environmental governance on the backburner, squandering this opportunity for Wales to be a world leader in green protections. During the fifth Senedd, I repeatedly challenged the then Minister for environment to come forward with substantive plans. Yet here we are, now into the sixth Senedd, and the timeline for the establishment of a successor environmental governance body for Wales still remains very unclear. So, with the interim assessor for environmental protection for Wales now in post, this role is very different to that of formal oversight and enforcement of environmental law. Despite calls from the environmental sector and the previous climate change committee, the Welsh Government has chosen not to prioritise the Senedd environmental governance Bill in the first year of this legislative programme. So, Minister, will you make a firm commitment that the Senedd environmental governance Bill will be brought forward at the start of the second year of the legislative programme? Can you also confirm what work is presently under way to consult on such detailed legislative proposals?

This Bill also does much to bolster our war on waste. Clauses 49 and 50 and Schedules 4 and 5 reform producer responsibility schemes with the aim of making producers more responsible for the full net cost of managing their products at the end of life. Clause 52 and Schedule 9 apply charges to single-use plastic items that are supplied in relation to goods or services to encourage the transition back to reusable materials. Now, whilst the Welsh Government has committed to legislate to ban the use of more commonly littered single-use plastics, the delivery timelines for extended producer responsibility for packaging and a deposit-return scheme have already been pushed back to 2023 and late 2024 respectively. So, Minister, would you confirm to the Senedd when the Welsh Government will be in a position to make a definitive decision on its preferred option when it comes to applying charges to single-use items? Can you also confirm what discussions you are undertaking with the UK Government to agree a way forward that would enable a ban on single-use plastics that delivers on the ambitions of the public, such as including wet wipes and straws for non-medical use?

Now, given that this Bill will remove the requirement for the national air quality strategy to cover the whole of Great Britain, it is really disappointing that the Welsh Government did not see fit to prioritise the introduction of a clean air Act for Wales during the first year of its legislative programme. We’ve had promises and promises about this in previous terms, so it’s really disappointing. Now, as I’ve stated previously, the £3.4 million revenue funding and £17 million capital funding allocated for air quality actions in 2021-22 is also a fall on the previous year. So, what action, again, Minister, is being taken to safeguard against this trend going forward?

On the issue of biodiversity targets, whilst I note in your response to the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report that you accept that necessity in principle, to learn that you are postponing this work until after COP15 in May 2022 is gravely concerning. What stakeholder discussions have you already taken, and will you commit to establishing a taskforce to drive this issue forward in a timetable that is more befitting of the nature emergency?

Finally, in turning to Part 5, which makes new provision in relation to water quality, regulation of water and sewerage companies, will you commit to consulting stakeholders before making regulations using the powers under Part 5? This environment Bill is a bold commitment from an ambitious Conservative Government, and one that looks to clean up the country’s air, restore natural habitats, increase biodiversity and address the issue of waste. For this reason today, this LCM has our wholehearted support. Diolch.

I wish I shared that enthusiasm, but I don’t. I know it’s very damp outside and I don’t want to bring a dampener into this realm, but anyway, as a member of consecutive Senedd environment committees, I’ve been across scrutiny of the Bill and it has been hugely delayed. I don't want to repeat the points that both Llyr and Huw Irranca have made, but I do want to repeat what we wrote in our report on the LCM—and it's been repeated already:

'the most appropriate way to legislate for Wales on environmental matters is through a Senedd Bill, made by Senedd Cymru and its elected members, to whom the Welsh Government is accountable.' 

I firmly believe that that is the way that we should be going, and that is what we're here elected to do. I do, on the other hand, appreciate the expediency of using the Bill to make provisions for Wales, but I look forward to the Minister bringing forward made-in-Wales environmental policy, and to do that extremely soon.

In doing so, I would urge the Minister to consider what can be done in respect of protecting and enhancing blue carbon. There is no mention, or very little, or I missed it, of Welsh seas, and yet they are more than a third larger than the Welsh landmass, and they already store almost 10 years' worth of Welsh carbon emissions. So, they're absolutely key to us achieving our ambitions of full climate change goals. A blue carbon strategy would draw together protection of our marine ecosystems and the need to decarbonise marine-based activities and industries. So, where there are provisions in this Bill, or the fisheries Bill, or non-legislative means for that matter, like marine protected areas, I do hope to see a real focus from this Government on blue carbon going forward.

Wales and this Senedd have declared climate and nature emergencies, but the legislation needed to underpin the urgency and the emergencies—the environmental governance, nature recovery targets, clean air targets—are all missing, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government must act on these issues, and we in Plaid Cymru believe that this Senedd is the appropriate and necessary body to be passing legislation on these issues. Instead, as we've heard, we are tied to the UK Environment Bill, which has been subject to so many delays. It further means that accountability for the decisions is at a remove from this Senedd and from the people of Wales. And now that the UK Bill is nearing its final stages, time is running out. It's nearly gone for the Welsh Government to negotiate amendments.

I'd add my voice to those already asking the question about when a Senedd environmental governance Bill will be brought forward. At present, we have an interim assessor overseeing governance. It's simply not enough to plug the gaps in governance created since we left the EU. Once this UK Bill is passed, this Bill that the Welsh Government wants us to tag ourselves to, Wales will be the only nation in the UK without legislation for a specific environmental governance system.

On air quality, I've made clear my frustrations on many occasions that a clean air Act has not been prioritised for the first year of this Government. Pollution chokes our roads, it clogs the lungs of our children. Public Health Wales estimate that air quality contributes to 6 per cent of deaths in Wales. We need a firm timetable for our own legislation, and again, we do need urgency. I would call on the Minister to commit to bring forward a clean air Bill in 2022.

On nature targets and biodiversity, this Senedd passed a landmark motion, Dirprwy Lywydd, some months ago when we declared a nature emergency, and we recognise that biodiversity loss can be, and must be, addressed as a priority. It's already been referred to that the Minister has said that she is considering introducing biodiversity targets, but that does fall short of what the Senedd has called for. We in Wales are one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world. We cannot wait for a convenient time to act. I would further question why the Welsh Government has not tried to amend the UK Bill to provide powers to Welsh Ministers relating to forestry commodities, and this has been raised by the climate change committee. Another opportunity, I fear, has been lost.

But, overwhelmingly, Dirprwy Lywydd, we in Plaid Cymru are deeply concerned about the use of concurrent plus powers in this LCM. Welsh Ministers should not be marginalised; the voice of this Senedd should not be muffled. We believe that passing an LCM of this nature would set a worrying precedent, particularly at a time when Westminster is intent on invading the powers of this Senedd. We will not be voting in favour of this LCM today, nor indeed will we vote on any LCM of this nature in favour.

I am told that the First Minister yesterday at Brighton received a standing ovation. Obviously, I wasn't there to witness it, but he said this—he described the importance of retaining power in order to make a difference in our communities. Yet, today, we have a Welsh Government conceding power to the Conservative Party at Westminster. This is what the First Minister said: 

'Everything Labour has achieved in Wales...has been achieved in the teeth of one of the most awful UK Government's we have ever seen. Incompetent to its core and automatically hostile to anyone who does not share its visceral reactionary instincts at home or abroad.'

So, you have it from our First Minister—awful, incompetent, hostile, reactionary—yet, today, it's good enough, in the eyes of the Welsh Government, to pass legislation in a crucial area for the well-being of the people of Wales today and in the future. Powers over our environment, a devolved area for over 20 years, handed back to Boris Johnson's awful, incompetent, hostile and reactionary Government.

On an issue of fundamental principle, Deputy Llywydd—a fundamental constitutional principle—it's the Welsh Senedd that should legislate in devolved areas. It is as simply as that. Areas such as the climate emergency are far too important to be left to Boris Johnson's Government. It was most unfortunate, as Huw Irranca-Davies has said, how little information was contained within the memoranda as to why this should happen. We need clear principles that are consistent before we should allow memoranda like this to be passed. A lack of time and a lack of capacity are not good enough reasons. This consent would mean that the Bill would only be available in English, it wouldn't be accessible to the people of Wales, and it would limit our powers to legislate in this area for the future. We would be ceding powers—the Welsh Government would be ceding powers. I've seen—and I've heard the Minister say today—that they've done a great deal of work to secure Welsh interests in the Bill, and as Huw Irranca-Davies said, it's not the role of the Welsh Government, it's our role—it's our role in the Welsh Senedd—to scrutinise and to propose amendments to Bills that relate to devolved areas. It's the role of the Welsh Government, Deputy Llywydd, to draft Bills on the environment—a clean air Act, a biodiversity Act, an environmental governance Act. Why, after a decade of having full legislative powers, are we asking a Government that has such a terrible environmental record to do this on our behalf?

Only in 2015, Boris Johnson wrote in The Daily Telegraph—and he was paid kindly for it—that warm weather in winter has nothing to do with global warming. And we also remember, don't we, his quote about rice pudding skin and wind turbines?

We here are Members of the Welsh Parliament at a time when the Westminster Government is undermining our devolution settlement—that is a fact. Listen to the numbers: in the fourth Senedd, there were eight Westminster Bills that required consent; now, in the sixth Senedd, already there are 13 Bills. It is happening. It's no coincidence; it is a plan by the Boris Johnson Government to withdraw powers from this Senedd quietly but consistently.

I turn to Labour backbenchers and urge you to vote against this. Alun Davies warned us again last week that devolution is dead—the process is over, we need to fight for it. The First Minister also said yesterday that it

'cannot be the limit of the ambition of this great party to wring marginal and reluctant concessions from the rich, the powerful and the privileged'.

Well, can I add to what the First Minister said? 'It cannot be the limit of the ambition of this great country to concede power and to wring concessions from Westminster. That's why the Minister couldn't get concessions; because I don't need to give it for us.' Our environment is fragile; it needs nurturing, it needs protecting. The then Secretary Alun Michael also described devolution as a fragile flower. It needs to be nurtured, it needs to be developed, not to be pruned back and to be cut away. Devolution in Wales, again, faces uncertainty; it needs nurturing, it doesn't need cutting back.

I'll finish with this: instead of consenting to this motion, we must stand up for our Senedd, its powers and for Wales—a Senedd that delivers radical, yes, thoughtful and scrutinised environmental legislation. That's our role, that's our duty, that's our privilege as Senedd Members. Diolch yn fawr. 

I call on the Minister for Climate Change to reply. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Just to start by thanking Members for their considered, wide-ranging comments and observations on the LCM today. As I said in my opening remarks, this Bill does allow us to progress our ambitious programme for government, where environmental objectives require new primary legislation. 

Just to address a few of the points that were raised today, and in particular the one raised by Llyr in his role as Chair of the committee, I was very grateful to the committee for giving me the opportunity to come and give evidence in person and for the set of questions that were asked. We did work very hard to get the response back to the committee as soon as possible. On recommendation 2 in particular, which he singled out, just to be very clear, we are establishing the commitment to write to the relevant policy committee to inform them of our intention to consent, and we absolutely are determined to make sure that the Senedd will be allowed to express a view before the Minister gives consent. So, there's no intention here to remove the Senedd from the ability to scrutinise legislation. I entirely accept that the Senedd has that role, rightly and properly, and that it performs that role well and that we want it to do so, to make sure that the legislation is the best it can be for the people of Wales. I think a number of people made that point, and I just wanted to express my vehement agreement with it. 

And then just to say that, of course, we also agree that, as I said in my opening remarks, primary legislation in devolved areas should of course be enacted by the Senedd. But, sometimes, it is sensible and advantageous to seek provisions in a UK Bill with the consent of the Senedd, and that's why we're here today. In particular, we want to emphasise the need for co-ordination across the UK for some of the schemes that are being entered into as part of this Bill, in particular the extended producer responsibility and the deposit-return schemes. We have, as Members will know, a very porous border in Wales, and a very large number of people cross that border on a daily basis, in both directions, numerous times. We want them to be able to hold producers to account that produce their goods in Wales and sell them in England and that produce their goods in England and sell them in Wales. We also want people to be able to return their bottles purchased in Wales in England, and vice versa. It is extremely important that we have that level of co-ordination in order to make sure that people can do the right thing. 

Members of this Senedd will have heard me very often say that it's the Government's platform to ensure that doing the right thing for each citizen of Wales, in terms of the climate and nature emergencies, is what we're supposed to do, and what this co-ordination allows is for people to do the right thing when they live close to the border, and that is a very large proportion of the population of Wales. So, I think that is a very good reason for using the UK Bill in this instance, to ensure that co-ordination across the piece. 

On the other things that people were very concerned about, I accept the concern. We have, of course, taken steps to remove the concurrent use of powers, where at all possible, and in bringing forward Welsh legislation. And I assure Members that the Government has every intention of doing just that. So, given the need for co-ordination, given the need to make sure that Wales stays in line with the very best environmental practice, and given the need for the Senedd to give its consent and the very good scrutiny that both committees have already given the Bill and the extremely excellent contributions made by their Chairs today, I would recommend that the Senedd agrees the LCM in this instance. Diolch yn fawr. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Objection. I will therefore defer voting until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.