The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

Item 6, a Government debate, using the UK Government spending review to address coal tip safety in Wales. I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7782 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

Calls on the UK Government to discharge its responsibilities in agreeing a funding programme for long-term remediation, reclamation and repurposing of coal tip sites in Wales.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our climate is changing. The Met Office reported in July this year that we should expect a pattern of wetter weather, more frequent storms and heavier rainfall. There's no doubt that we are seeing destructive climate change unfold before us. The latest climate change impact assessment explains what this means for us here in Wales. It spells out, among wider impacts, the increased risk of future landslips, landslides and subsidence linked to historic mining activities, and these are not just theoretical predictions. In February 2020, as a result of devastating storms, we all saw the impact of the landslip at Tylorstown, a stark reminder of the legacy of Wales's industrial history. This landslide highlighted that there are still risks associated with our proud mining past. In February this year, we saw a landslip at Pentre threaten significant disruption. We need to ensure the legacy of coal mining does not continue to pose a risk to public safety while also preparing for the challenges of climate change, which could cause more extreme weather events. And of course, in just a few weeks, we will remember the devastating consequences of the tip slide that killed 144 people, 116 of them children, on 21 October 1966 at Aberfan.

The legacy of our mining past, the benefits of which were shared across the whole of the UK, is the more than 2,100 disused coal tips across Wales. When these tips were created, the full impact of carbon emissions from coal, oil and gas in driving climate change was not yet known. Tip drainage systems were not designed to deal with the volumes of rain now predicted, and unless we address these issues now, our communities face greater uncertainty in the future. By addressing these issues, we can avoid unnecessary increases in carbon emissions.

Wales is disproportionately affected by the legacy of coal mining. Approximately 40 per cent of Britain's disused coal tips are here in Wales. Of the higher risk tips, more than 90 per cent are located in the south Wales Valleys. It is beyond question that the existing devolution settlement and Barnett formula fail to recognise this or to adequately reflect Wales's needs in this respect. Ensuring the safety of tips requires ongoing maintenance by the Welsh Government. The reclamation costs now exacerbated by climate change are on a scale far in excess of anything anticipated when devolution began in 1999. They are not reflected in our current funding arrangements. The UK Government must agree to fund these costs, or it is washing its hands of its coal-mining past and its responsibility to clean up the liabilities left behind.

Perversely, we are left three times worse off, because the UK Government has so far refused to spend on coal tips, and, of course, it's holding back £375 million of regional funding that should come to the Welsh Government. So, the UK Government is willing, as the Senedd has heard in the previous statement this afternoon, to provide financial support through its levelling-up funds or for areas that are clearly devolved, introducing new legislation to do this and risking duplication and poor value for money while reneging on its obligations to provide the necessary support to tackle problems such as coal tip safety that predate devolution.

We are keen to work with the UK Government to address this challenge. We're already delivering on our responsibilities for coal tip safety. After the Tylorstown slip, the First Minister immediately established the coal tip safety taskforce, which is driving forward a substantial programme of operational and legislative reform work. Working with partners in the Coal Authority, local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, regular inspections are now under way and maintenance works have commenced. Working with local resilience fora, emergency response measures are now in place. As a Government, we're also committed to delivering new coal tip safety legislation during this Senedd. Last year, we asked the Law Commission to undertake a review on the legislative framework for coal tip safety in Wales. This review will provide vital evidence for the development of new Welsh legislation on coal tips, which we are committed to delivering during this Senedd.

However, this isn't a challenge that we can tackle alone, and nor should we have to. I was pleased to see the Prime Minister highlight the need for action on coal in his UN speech on climate change this month. I'm also pleased to note the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office is providing £44 million in aid to help countries in the developing world manage extractive industries like coal responsibly and accountability.

The First Minister has been very clear: this Government is committed to a United Kingdom that works for all of its constituent parts. If the UK Government shares our commitment to the union, then this is the challenge and now is the time for them to take their share of the responsibility for the historic legacy of coal mining in the UK. 

This is no small task—if only it were. The cost of restoring just one tip where extensive work is needed can be £40 million, and we have over 2,100 tips in Wales. We are starting with the most challenging sites, of course. However, we estimate that we will need at least £600 million over the next decade and a half. We need the UK Government to fund us to invest now, while there is still time, to avoid much greater cost and impact on people and communities. 

I do want to say that it's not all doom and gloom. There are big opportunities, too. I was encouraged by my recent meeting with the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who told me that he shares the Welsh Government's passion for tackling the climate and nature emergency. The Chief Secretary is leading the UK Government's comprehensive three-year spending review in which tackling climate change and addressing regional inequalities are highlighted as a high priority. If we can agree a way forward to address this shared challenge and manage the inherent risk, there is an opportunity for us to show our collective commitment as we look ahead to the UK hosting COP26. And it has never been more important for us to work together across the UK and across the world to tackle the climate and nature emergency and its consequences. 

Coal tips, by their very nature, are quite literally significant stores of fossil carbon. They're a key part of our geological heritage. Many are habitats for plants and animals. Restored and made safe, they have the potential to be part of a national network for nature and the national forest for Wales. The investment needed will bring economic benefits, new skills and more employment to our Valleys communities. It will improve the environment for people who live there and give back a share of national wealth to those whose predecessors helped create it. 

The facts speak for themselves. Climate change, leading to intense rainfall events, threatens to destabilise coal tips. The industrial legacy of coal mining is having a disproportionate effect on us here in Wales. The US Government is showing the way, with the stimulus funding it's providing to former mining areas across the US. The Welsh Government is stepping up to the challenge, but the UK Government thus far has not. That's why I'm calling on Members to oppose the Conservative amendment and support the motion. It's time for the UK Government to live up to its promises and fully discharge its responsibilities, by working with us and agreeing a funding programme to address the challenge of the long-term remediation, reclamation and repurposing of coal tip sites, and I commend the motion to the Senedd. 

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. 

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Delete 'UK Government to discharge its' and replace with 'Welsh Government and the UK Government to discharge their'.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I stand to move the amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. And, as has been said, it was only after the shocking disaster of Aberfan in 1966 that the Mines And Quarries (Tips) Act 1969 was enacted. Half a century on, it is only after storm Dennis in February 2020 and the slippage of a coal tip in Tylorstown that the Law Commission have been formally invited now to undertake an independent review of the relevant legislation and provide recommendations for a future Bill. That it's taking catastrophes for us to realise that legislation is neither sufficiently robust nor fit for purpose is a point that we should all be reflecting on here today. Our communities deserve a Welsh Parliament that is not reactive but proactive in its approach to such important issues. They deserve a Welsh Parliament that is doing everything in its power to safeguard our communities and its people. But they also deserve a Welsh Government that is honest about its own responsibilities. 

Deputy Llywydd, the First Minister was advised in writing by the Rt Hon Stephen Barclay MP on 5 July 2021, and I quote, that

'the management of coal tips in Wales is a devolved matter and therefore not one the UK government would expect to provide additional funding for.'

In fact, the First Minister knows only too well that the management of coal tips is devolved, because it is even included in his programme for government, which makes a welcome promise to introduce legislation to deal with the legacy of centuries of mining and ensure coal tip safety. So, I ask that the record is set straight to reflect that. It is down to the Welsh Government to manage any long-term costs associated with ensuring the safety of our Welsh coal tips. I appreciate that the legacy coal tip issues that we face could cost over a period of 10 years in the region of £0.5 billion. However, there's no reason why that cannot be funded. For example, for 2021-22, the Welsh Government's overall spending review settlement provides £123 per person for every £100 of equivalent funding in England. So, I get a little tired now in my third term to be told constantly it's down to the UK Government. In fact, the Welsh Government will receive around £1 billion more in 2021 than what was agreed as fair funding for Wales relative to England, so you can afford to take responsibility for what is a devolved matter.

As you will know, the UK Government is willing to co-operate to ensure that householders and businesses know that the risk is being taken seriously. This should not be a political football. In December 2020, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury accepted the Welsh Government's bid for £31 million to help with the unforeseen impacts—[Interruption.]—I'll take an intervention if you want—[Interruption.]—okay—with the unforeseen impacts of storm Dennis, which included £9 million to repair vulnerable coal tips across Wales.

The UK Government continues to make available the expertise of the Coal Authority to support the work to ensure that tips are safe, and of course, in February 2020, a taskforce chaired by the Secretary of State for Wales and First Minister was established to discuss and co-ordinate work. We could see heavy rainfall in Wales this winter, and as such, I would be pleased to receive an update on measures that have been taken by this Welsh Government to safeguard communities from the tips classed as high risk. Now, £180,000 was made available last year for trial sensor equipment, meaning that locations such as the National tip, Wattstown, have real-time telemetric monitoring systems, keeping a 24-hour eye on both ground movement and water levels. That aim was to include a greater number of tips in the trials. Has this been achieved? Will there be a further roll-out of real-time telemetric monitoring systems? Last winter, the Coal Authority and local authorities inspected nearly 300 high-risk tips, identifying really important and urgent maintenance works. So, my question: how many of the coal tips which required work to commence within six to 12 months have seen that target achieved?

Will the Member conclude now, please?

Yes. I understand that that answer is one coal tip. So, we agree that the safety of our communities is paramount, so whilst I cannot support the original motion, I can assure you and anyone sitting in this Senedd, that the Welsh Conservatives wish to see all levels of Government continue to co-operate to protect Wales from any further potential catastrophes. Thank you.

Our landscapes wear the scars of Wales's past. Pitheads, crumbling viaducts, bridges that lead nowhere, and coal tips that stain our mountainsides, tips that speak of a time of soot and clamour, of fires raging underground, and lives buried in the soil. Our Valleys paid long and hard for the spoils of coal mining, and it is maddening to think, Dirprwy Lywydd, that legislation surrounding tip safety was not even introduced until after the Aberfan disaster. And even after that unspeakable, that devastating event—a moment that should have prompted resignations, a reckoning of fundamental change and mass shifting of this waste and spoil—the tips were not removed from the other mountains in our Valleys. If those tips had been in Surrey or Bedfordshire, I doubt whether they'd have been left to pockmark the skyline. But in Wales, in Bedwas, Penalltau, Penydarren, Bedlinog, communities lie in the shadow of these monstrosities, feeling anxious every time it rains, because the more rain we get now means that those tips could become even more unstable. In 2020, it was a happy accident that no-one lived in the path of the Tylorstown landslip. Do we want to wait to see whether fate will continue to be on our side?

Dirprwy Lywydd, deep mining meant that danger was always present. The most that they could do was to minimise that danger, but the flaw came when that same mindset was put in charge of safety above ground, treating our towns like rubbish dumps. I mentioned legislation; well, the law we have is starkly deficient. There is next to no management, no consistency with risk assessments, no obligation to inspect the tips or to keep them safe, and no way of enforcing landowners to act if there is a danger. Seventy tips in Caerphilly are deemed high risk; 59 in Merthyr and 16 in Blaenau Gwent have this same notoriety, and still those in Westminster squabble about the cost. Who will pay to make these tips safe? Should it really fall to the local authorities of communities that were plundered for their coal and saw none of the profits invested back? The wealth was ripped from the ground under their feet. How can Westminster shrug off that shame? It should not have taken a near miss in Tylorstown to force Government, NRW and local authorities to realise that they are death traps not in our path, but hanging over our heads. How long will the people of Bedwas, of Penyard, Nant-yr-Odyn, Hengoed have to live with that unease hanging over them? How long will this injustice hang in the air?

Anyone who looked at the wording of the motion today would be wondering what all the fuss was about, because there doesn't seem to be much between the amendment and the Government's motion, but, if you listen to the words of the Minister, what she's talking about is a Government that needs to live within its means, and the Welsh Government does need to live within its means on this. Historically, where we've got issues that pervaded prior to devolution, then I think it's right that the UK Government takes its role seriously in resolving those issues. This is an issue, as Delyth has already said, that is something that existed long before devolution came about, and, in order to address and to remediate those tips in my constituency, a significant amount of public money is needed, which goes beyond that which the UK Government has estimated.

I take very seriously the issues in Bedwas, for example. I've met with the local authority and with Natural Resources Wales to talk about the number of tips in my constituency. So, we've got over 20 local authority owned tips in the Caerphilly constituency, and there are over 20 privately owned tips, and, in their current status, it isn't as frightening as it sounds, that number, because some are engineered and landscaped, reclaimed—Penallta country park is based on one—and some are unreclaimed. The local authority owned tips are covered by a risk-based inspection and a maintenance regime, which more than satisfies Caerphilly county borough's statutory responsibility. So, for example, today, Bedwas is inspected on a monthly basis, and, for today, I would imagine that, with the weather as it is, Caerphilly council will be inspecting Bedwas tip today. I've spoken to many people in Bedwas, and the general reaction is: 'We need to leave that tip as it is. We don't want to touch it.' That's the kind of reaction we get in the community. They know that to remediate it would cost a vast amount of money, which is currently beyond the means of the Welsh Government and which I do believe the UK Government needs to provide. Those inspection regimes continue.

There aren't any safety concerns with any of the local authority tips—the Caerphilly council tips—at the moment, even where they are in that higher risk category, and, as I say, they are inspected on a monthly basis. But the maintenance of the privately owned tips is a concern, because, under the tips Act 1969, it's the responsibility of the landowner. In discussing this with Caerphilly council, I learned that they can step in under their emergency powers where they've got those concerns, but that is a grey area as to what they can do and how they could step in. So, we do certainly need clarity there.

But, fundamentally, my argument would be that this is a pre-devolution era issue, and, just as with contaminated blood, for example, we need the UK Government to take the action that is still bound with them, and they are falling short at this point in time. However, listening to the Minister, I do feel encouraged by some of the conversations that she's said she's had with the UK Government. I sincerely hope they bear fruit. The Welsh Government has taken a great deal of steps and Caerphilly council is doing a great deal of work, but, without that significant input from the UK Government, that won't be sufficient in the longer term. So, we look forward to hearing more from the Minister about the progress she's making in those discussions.  

I'm pleased to speak in this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee. 

In the previous Senedd, the Minister told the Finance Committee that she was seeking additional funding from the UK Government to address coal tip safety in Wales. In response to that request, the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury said that the Welsh Government is more than adequately funded to manage future costs as part of its normal budget planning. However, it seems that this is an area where Wales has been disproportionately affected, with the number of incidents relating to coal tips happening at an alarming rate. Wales has a significantly higher proportion of coal tips compared to the rest of the UK. Due to the scale of long-term investment required, we think that the Barnett formula is the right mechanism for dealing with the funding of this legacy issue.

I’m pleased that the Minister continues to press the UK Government for early certainty and enhanced transparency of spending announcements to enable the Welsh Government to plan more effectively for the future in this area. The UK Government's spending review and autumn budget will conclude on 27 October, and, although we support the Minister's efforts, it is also vital that the committee has a clear understanding of the funding available so that we are able to undertake quality financial scrutiny. We would also reiterate a previous recommendation that the Welsh Government aids transparency of funding by publishing its calculations on consequentials from UK spending announcements.

As Members know, this issue has a particular historical resonance in Wales. Given our unique heritage and geography, it needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. We therefore support the Minister's endeavours. However, it should not be at the cost of transparency and proper scrutiny. Diolch yn fawr.

For more than a century, Welsh coal powered the world. From Trehafod up to Maerdy, Trebanog over to Treherbert, men and women worked their fingers to the bone to make this country rich. We're proud of the contribution our forefathers made in Rhondda, alongside our neighbours, as part of the wider south Wales coalfields area. This is in stark contrast to successive UK Tory Governments, who have time and time again made conscious, deliberate political decisions that have—and still do—significantly impacted the lives of my constituents in Rhondda. 

Last year, we witnessed dramatic scenes in Tylorstown and Wattstown, with landslides at former coal tips. It's clear that the defences that were put in place before climate change are not going to be good enough for the future. Without meaningful intervention, we will see this replicated at coal tips right across Wales, putting our communities in harm's way. I know the Welsh Government has found money over this short term to be putting this problem right, and ambitious plans are in place to get a coal tip safety Act for Wales on the statute book. But we need a co-operated long-term remediation, reclamation and repurposing programme with the UK Government to address this issue. 

This, no doubt, should be a shared challenge. Forty per cent of all UK coal tips are located in Wales. It's frustrating that we have had to fight the Tory Government every step of the way to get the money we need and deserve, but it isn't a surprise. We only need to listen to the statements made by the First Minister and economy Minister earlier today to know that Wales is too often an afterthought to the Tory Government. The spending review provides an opportunity for the UK Government to put this right. I urge my colleagues across the Chamber today to support the original motion to ensure we finally see positive action, not just words, from the UK Government.

I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's so disheartening to hear the Welsh Conservatives state, week after week, that they think that Wales is somehow overfunded, or even sufficiently funded, and I would ask the Welsh Conservatives just to do their own research and to consider some of the facts, the figures, the responsibilities. Look at the historic underfunding of rail in Wales, for example. Ask yourselves if you can be satisfied with that. Look at the way in which HS2 is being categorised by the UK Government as a Wales-and-England scheme, even though the UK Government's own figures show it will be detrimental to Wales, and especially south-west Wales, and ask yourselves if you're satisfied with that. And consider whether you're content that the new border control points should not attract any additional funding from the UK Government, even though they are new and unfunded as the result of Brexit. Consider whether you think that free ports in Wales should only attract £8 million of funding, compared to every free port in England having £25 million. If you're content and satisfied with all of that, you explain that to your constituents. But if, after considering the facts and the funding and the responsibilities, you're as angry as we are on these benches, then do something about this and work with us to put your influence on your colleagues in Westminster to make this right.

The Barnett formula was never designed for this; £600 million over 10 to 15 years is a huge amount of funding, and where will it come from? It will come from schools, it will come from hospitals, it will come from road maintenance and it will come from social housing. It doesn't come from thin air.

I want to put on record and give a little bit of clarity around the £31 million that was described as well. So, that was an amount of funding I negotiated with the UK Government that if the UK Government deemed that we couldn't afford to spend that at the end of the financial year then it would provide the additional funding. It was a form of guarantee, and it was very helpful because it allowed us to have that certainty and that confidence to move on and make plans and investments in the immediate aftermath. However, colleagues will be aware that Welsh Government had significant funding at the end of the financial year as a result of late announcements of COVID consequentials from the UK Government and also our better management of finances here in Wales in respect of test, trace, protect and personal protective equipment, for example. And, as such, the UK Government netted off that £31 million from the COVID fund, therefore not providing that additional funding. So, I think it's worth just having the facts on that.

What I don't want to do today in these discussions that we've been having about coal tips is to cause alarm, and that's something that I think is really important, because we've been gaining a very good and better understanding of our coal tips across Wales, and we now have a much, much better picture of the number and their current status, and we've obviously established a robust inspection and maintenance regime by working with the Coal Authority—UK Coal Authority—and local authorities. The inspection programme ensures that those tips are regularly inspected and any maintenance work is identified and carried out within set time frames to mitigate as many risks as possible. And the next round of winter inspections on the higher risk tips will commence next week and will be carried out jointly by the Coal Authority and local authorities. So, I want to provide that reassurance to communities who might have been unsettled by the focus that is on coal tips at the moment. In addition to this, we're also piloting new technological trials on selected tips, trialling, for example, sensor equipment that is placed on the tips to monitor movement, as well as satellite imagery to remotely measure soil moisture levels below ground. And if anybody is concerned about a tip in their locality, including the drainage systems, then there is a freephone helpline that they can call, and an e-mail address, on the Welsh Government's website. And following the storms and the landslips back in Tylorstown and Wattstown, we did provide a letter of comfort to local authorities so that they could get on and undertake that immediate safety work without having to worry about where the funding was coming from, and I think that that was welcomed by local authorities too.

So, let's just reflect finally that these communities have made significant sacrifices in terms of the coal industry, not least through the coal tips but also in so many other ways in terms of the health impacts that these communities are still feeling, and I think it's really time to recognise that this does predate devolution and it's time, really, to show our commitment jointly, with the UK Government, to these communities.

I was really, actually, heartened by Darren Millar's comments today in the First Minister's statement on inter-governmental relations. He said,

'I and my colleagues on the Welsh Conservative benches completely agree that there needs to be a joint, collaborative approach to addressing the concerns... given that they are...a legacy from the pre-devolution era.'

So, Darren Millar recognised that this is a pre-devolution issue, and Darren Millar recognised that the UK Government also has a role to play in this. I do think that this is an opportunity now for all of us, cross-party, to send a really strong message to the UK Government. Surely, this is something that the people in Wales, and especially in those coal-mining communities, would expect us to do and deserve for us to do on a cross-party basis. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There's an objection. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting before proceeding to voting time.

Plenary was suspended at 17:46.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:53, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.